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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Senate Unanimously Agrees To Send Epstein Bill To Trump's Desk; GOP Effort To Censure House Dem For Texting Epstein Fails; Trump Says Saudi Crown Prince "Knew Nothing" About Khashoggi Killing Despite CIA Conclusion The Prince Likely Ordered It. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired November 18, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: It's a really moving and, at times, very funny conversation as well. You can listen to the full conversation, wherever you get your podcasts. Or you can watch the entire episode -- all the podcasts now are video episodes as well -- you can watch that at CNN.com/AllThereIs. I think it's on YouTube as well. At CNN.com/AllThereIs.
You can also watch my streaming show, which is a new companion show to the podcast. It's "All There Is Live." That's every Thursday night, live at 09:15 p.m. Eastern Time.
That's it for us. The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now. I'll see you, tomorrow.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Bill to release the files from Jeffrey Epstein that are in the hands of the Justice Department is about to hit President Trump's desk. And we've got the survivors, and the Congressmen who made it happen, here tonight.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Tonight. It's a moment that so many survivors thought they might never see has arrived. The bill they fought for, demanding the release of the Epstein files, is set to hit President Trump's desk, as soon as tomorrow. Only one member of Congress, Republican congressman, Clay Higgins of Louisiana, voted against this bill, a bill that Republican leaders in the White House have been trying to kill since July.
In a surprising turn of events, here in Washington, the Senate actually agreed to pass it unanimously, sending it to the White House faster than most people here had expected.
President Trump responded tonight, saying, quote, "I don't care when the Senate passes the House Bill, whether tonight, or at some other time in the near future," because, he says, he wants Republicans to get back to talking about their accomplishments instead.
Of course, this whole process could have been avoided, given this is actually something the President could have ordered on his own, for the Justice Department to release these files. But when the President has been asked about that in recent days, he's reacted with flashes of anger, instead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Mr. President, why wait for Congress to release the Epstein files? Why not just do it now?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: You know, it's not the question that I mind. It's your attitude. I think you are a terrible reporter. It's the way you ask these questions.
TRUMP: Yes, Jennifer. Go ahead, go ahead.
REPORTER: If there's nothing incriminating in the files sir, why not--
TRUMP: Quiet. Quiet, piggy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That's really what he said to that reporter who was asking him about the Jeffrey Epstein files.
Now, here in Washington today, the women who survived Jeffrey Epstein's abuse returned to the Capitol. They were actually in the House gallery to witness this moment, as the bill finally passed in the House, for themselves, and as they delivered an unmistakable message to all of those members and all of those lawmakers gathered in that room.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HALEY ROBSON, JEFFREY EPSTEIN SURVIVOR: To the President of the United States of America, who is not here today, I want to send a clear message to you. While I do understand that your position has changed on the Epstein files, and I'm grateful that you have pledged to sign this bill, I can't help to be skeptical of what the agenda is.
JENA-LISA JONES, JEFFREY EPSTEIN SURVIVOR: I beg you, President Trump, please stop making this political.
It is not about you, President Trump. You are our President. Please start acting like it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The reversals on this bill really show you how unexpected this moment truly was.
The Senate Majority Leader, John Thune, said in July that it was unlikely that the Senate would even take this up. Tonight, he's allowing it to pass as soon as it arrives in his chamber.
House Speaker Mike Johnson blocked it for months. He described it as a flawed bill, said this was all a moot point. Tonight, he voted for it. But it was three Republican women, who refused to reverse themselves, including Marjorie Taylor Greene. Amid her own falling out with Trump, the fire-breathing Congresswoman from Georgia, has broken with the President on several fronts, including his handling of the Epstein saga.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): I'll tell you right now, this has been one of the most destructive things to MAGA.
Watching this actually turn into a fight has ripped MAGA apart. And the only thing that will speak to the powerful, courageous women behind me is when action is actually taken to release these files, and the American people won't tolerate any other bullshit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Moments ago, I sat down with three women who say that Jeffrey Epstein abused them. Jena-Lisa Jones. Wendy Avis. and Lisa Phillips.
As well as the two members of Congress who led the effort that culminated in an unlikely victory tonight. That's Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna of California, and Republican Congressman Thomas Massie of Kentucky.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: I want to thank you all for being here, most importantly, Lisa, Wendy, and Jena-Lisa, especially after your powerful comments this morning, and thank you for that.
[21:05:00]
Congressmen, it's great to have you both again, back here. I don't think the last time we spoke that we thought we'd be here in this moment, on the verge of having the President sign this, and it becoming law, here in Washington.
REP. THOMAS MASSIE (R-KY): Things accelerated quickly. Things don't move forever in Washington, D.C. And then, all of a sudden, they do. And that's what happened.
COLLINS: But 427 to one, over in the House. It was unanimous in the Senate.
Congressman Massie, for you, as the Republican who led this, obviously bipartisan, but as the Republican who led this, what do you say to those members who, for months, refused to put their names on your discharge petition, and then wound up voting for this today.
MASSIE: All that's necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. And we had good men doing nothing, for five months.
And really, our Speaker was disparaging our legislation, for five months. He ended up voting for it. And he could have saved us all a lot of trouble, he could have brought justice to the survivors here, five months sooner, if he'd just brought the bill to the floor.
COLLINS: Justice could have been brought five months sooner.
I mean, there was one member, Clay Higgins, who voted against it. Have you spoken to him or heard why exactly he was opposed to this, when every single other member of the House voted for it?
REP. RO KHANNA (D-CA): No. Thomas tells me that he thought it was hypocritical for Speaker Johnson to be saying, It's a bad bill, it's a bad bill, and then suddenly telling everyone to vote for it.
But the important things here is the survivors. I mean, they had to come to the Capitol twice, once on September 3rd, when the story was dying, when the Speaker had shut down Congress, and they really caught the nation's attention. That gave us momentum.
Look, we had to overcome the President. We had to overcome the Cabinet. We had to overcome the Speaker. We had to overcome the Congress being shut down. We had to overcome them not swearing in the 218th member of Congress.
And the only reason it happened is that these survivors came twice, and then they came again today, and the powerful stories that they told. And the President ultimately saw that he was going to lose 50, 60, 70, even more votes, and he said, Look, I don't want to do that. I'm going to sign it.
COLLINS: Well--
KHANNA: He should have the survivors there when he signs it. That's the one thing I really think is important, because the President of the United States should acknowledge what happened to these women, as, how they were raped, how they were abused, this is not a hoax. That would be such a powerful statement, in him saying that this Epstein class needs to be held accountable, they need to go.
COLLINS: Jena-Lisa, you're shaking your head, yes, when Congressman Khanna is saying that the President should have you and the other survivors there when he signs this bill.
JONES: He owes us that much. He owes us an apology, for sure. And I think that would be one way of showing some remorse for this drawn-out process that didn't need to be.
COLLINS: And you don't see this in a political way. I was listening to you, this morning. You said you voted for President Trump, actually. But your plea was to stop making this about him, and to essentially start making it about y'all.
JONES: Yes. I mean, he really ran his campaign on this. This is why I voted for him. This -- release of these files has been so important to me, for so long, that when he ran with that, I really had some hope that someone was going to do something about it. No matter what the motive was, right, behind it, that he was going to release them, and so -- solidarity with us. But then, he completely flipped. And, I mean, he was even working with our lawyers and stuff, so I -- it was really hard to go from helping us, to completely turning on us, and then calling it a Democratic hoax, when he knew it wasn't. So, he thought it was just a political play. And I think that was wrong. And I think that added fuel to the fire against both parties, and where it didn't need to be.
COLLINS: Wendy, do you think that what happened today on Capitol Hill, and what the Congressmen here have been fighting for, helps put survivors back at the forefront of this, instead of politics being at the front of this?
WENDY AVIS, JEFFREY EPSTEIN SURVIVOR: I think it's our best attempt yet, yes. And we are trying. I think it's -- today shows us that we are being seen, and we're being heard. And if we can keep that momentum, then I think that that's yes.
COLLINS: Lisa, how are you feeling? You've obviously been very outspoken about this, and talked about how important this transparency is for you, as well. Do you feel like you're on the verge of finally getting that transparency?
LISA PHILLIPS, JEFFREY EPSTEIN SURVIVOR: I actually do feel that way. I started speaking out, just because I wanted to stand up for other survivors that have gone through the same pain that we have, but couldn't find their voice. So, I was trying to have the courage and the bravery to stand up there, to have that voice for them.
[21:10:00]
And just like Wendy said, just feeling validated, feeling seen, feeling heard, that's what we really wanted, you know, was to stand up there and say, This happened to us, but what are we going to do now?
And it's been a few months, it's been tough. It's not easy to speak out about something of this magnitude. It just really isn't. But we feel good about it now. We've been really just excited, all together, when we got the -- when we got the news.
COLLINS: Well, and a big question is, what happens now. Obviously, people really didn't expect this to go through the Senate as easily as it did. Pass with unanimous consent is the plan. President Trump said he will sign it already.
Do you have concerns, Congressman, that the Justice Department's investigations that he has ordered into the Democrats who were named, in these emails, last week, could be used as a justification for not releasing everything that the DOJ has?
MASSIE: Well, first of all, what's going to happen next? The legislation gives the executive branch only 30 days to produce these files. And if they redact anything, they've got 15 days to explain and justify any redactions. So, we drafted this legislation, so that if it did pass, things would be on a fast-track.
And it is true that if they start investigations in one sort of silo of area of these Epstein files, they could block or delay. It won't delay it forever. But they could delay releasing those files there. But here's the thing. There are a 1,000 victims, and there are so many perpetrators. They can't open enough cases to block all of the Epstein files, and to protect all of these perpetrators.
So, even if they do these, what seem to be, partisan investigations -- that's another thing that bothers me about the announcement the President made, is he named Democrats and things that he was going to investigate. These survivors are not partisan. They're not -- they don't belong to one party. And the perpetrators aren't either. And so, this shouldn't be about political divides.
So, I hope that that was sort of a bluff, and I hope that the DOJ will release all the files. But even if they start investigations, there's -- they don't have enough investigators to block all the Epstein files.
COLLINS: Do you think it's a bluff?
KHANNA: Well, here's the good news, when he signs the bill. He no longer is responsible. I mean, if he was trying to protect friends or donors, he can just say, Look, my hands are tied. I have nothing to do with it. The Congress has passed this law. I'm not doing anything.
And it's actually justice career officials who have to release the files. And they are going to be subject to criminal prosecution or contempt of Congress if they don't, whether it's Trump or a future administration.
So, that's why this law is so powerful, and it actually can, if there was pressure on Donald Trump, from his friends or donors or others, he can just say, Look, my hands are tied. It's the Congress that's acted.
So, I do think it's going to lead to a release of a lot of the files.
COLLINS: Given how much the President tried to fight this, as he's on the verge of signing it, do you think he deserves credit for this tonight?
MASSIE: Well, he -- you know, people ask me, Did he damage his image by what he did this week?
I think he actually improved his image by what he did this week, and he has the potential to do that even more. He could invite the survivors to the White House for the signing. He could listen to their stories. And he could even preemptively release documents, well before that 30-day deadline.
So, I do think when he told the MAGA base, You're no longer my supporters, if you still want these documents released? He damaged himself. But he mended that a little bit, this week.
COLLINS: Jena-Lisa, how do you see that? Because one thing that the House Speaker, Mike Johnson, was saying was actually that they were worried that this bill would create more victims, if it went to -- if it passed as it is written now, because other people will be named, they believe people may be falsely smeared, as a result of this coming out.
As someone who, as you spoke today so candidly about being, in the ninth grade, and you showed your picture of how young you were, when all of this started. How do you view that?
JONES: Well, I don't know, like, these politic things are so, I don't -- I really don't know. I just want these -- I think this is the right way to go about it. I don't think anything wrong with it. I think we've waited too long for the files, and that we just need to get them out. So, I don't have an issue as a survivor, at all, with this bill. I don't think any of us that have stood up.
I don't think what he thinks could be smearing to someone else. I mean, a little bit of embarrassment because you hung out with the wrong person. I think we've suffered enough embarrassment by having to put ourselves out there. So, I mean, take the little hit if you have to. If you didn't really have anything to wrongdoing, then I don't think you have anything to worry about.
[21:15:00]
PHILLIPS: And also, it doesn't really make sense either, because you can't really smear a name, because there's so much evidence within the files that I don't think it's even possible.
JONES: Yes.
PHILLIPS: I think it's going to be pretty accurate.
AVIS: And as far as adding new victims or creating new victims. If the bill or the process is followed like I believe or interpret? Then that investigation will be done, and it will be determined whether that is a real victim or not, and then that victim can pursue legal actions or not.
That, we can't force somebody to hold -- like, nobody came to me and said, You have to go against Epstein, you have to. So then it's on them. So, I think that -- and it could create more victims that are too scared to come out, because they think that there's no proof, and we just found the proof for you, to say your truth, and that through the investigation, will maybe prove that there are other victims out there.
COLLINS: What recourse do you have, if the administration doesn't release what it has? What will you do as the two who led this charge and were the originals that are the reason we're here tonight?
MASSIE: Well, as Ro said, there are criminal penalties, if they don't follow the law, and that's the recourse that we would follow. We undertook a very steep hill, a steep climb, to get this done. There have been subpoenas. There have been resolutions. There's been an oversight committee. Those are all sort of Mother, May I? request to the administration.
We decided to do this as a law, which means it has to pass both chambers and even be signed by the man who was opposed to it. At least be presented to him, he could have always vetoed it. And because we're going to overcome all three of those hurdles, our recourse is legal now. These people could eventually go to jail for not releasing these files.
COLLINS: What does it say that we're even here tonight? I mean. Because we have spoken so many times about the improbability of this happening. I know you had done the math, about how often--
MASSIE: 4 percent, yes.
COLLINS: --a discharge petition ever makes it through. It's incredibly rare. I mean, you two are very seasoned officials, here in Washington. This is not somewhere where even a week ago, it was clear that this was -- this was happening.
KHANNA: I didn't think it was going to happen. But you know what? The survivors are showing us, the way forward. Not just on Epstein, but maybe for this country. They took an enormous risk. I mean, the people in those files are extremely wealthy. They're powerful. They're obviously ruthless. They're vindictive.
These survivors have been abused before, and they're going on national television, and telling their stories, knowing that those files are going to be released, and these people may have incredibly vindictive motives afterwards. And they did it, as human beings.
And they did something that has brought not just Thomas and I, who had a friendship, together, but people like Nancy Mace, and Marjorie Taylor Greene, and Lauren Boebert. I would never have dreamed I would be working with them. And what they're showing is that if we start to approach things with courage and humanity, then we can actually get things done in this country, in a way that the Congress has not been able to do, for many, many years.
COLLINS: Jena-Lisa, is that how you felt, as you were there today, sharing your story, and showing pictures, which I thought was really powerful that a lot of you did today, of when you were a victim of Jeffrey Epstein's and became a survivor, of just how young you were, to remind people of that, the impact of that?
JONES: This is the first time I feel like that we've all are on a united front of like what is happening, and that we want justice in the right direction.
It was so important to share that photo of us, when we were younger, because I think when people see us on camera, and who we are now, that they forget that that's who we were then, when it actually happened. And now, I'm sitting here, 20-something years later, and I have a kid the same age that I was in that photo.
And I think that is the tone that people need to remember, is we're not just up here fighting for ourselves. We're fighting for other survivors. And these powerful people are still doing these things. Don't think that they're not. They are. They think they're untouchable, and they'll do what they have to do, to continue their horrific crimes. And we see that. COLLINS: Wendy and Lisa, do you feel like you're getting justice, now, in this moment?
AVIS: In this very moment, yes. But that can -- it's fast-fleeting.
PHILLIPS: I know it felt really good today, right? All--
AVIS: Yes.
JONES: Every second.
PHILLIPS: We sat with the Women's Caucus, Democratic Caucus and the Republicans together.
[21:20:00]
JONES: Yes, that was a really, really powerful moment, because it has felt for so -- for a lot of this process, that the Republican Party has been very quiet. Very few have had the guts to stand loud and proud on this situation.
PHILLIPS: Yes.
JONES: And so, to have those women come in and speak with us, and have that type of support, and to see both parties together--
COLLINS: Yes.
JONES: --on something is very powerful. Because our country has been so divided, for so very long, and it's just horrific to watch. So, to see those beautiful moments that the public didn't get to see, and that was personal and private. And to be with the Democratic women's caucus, as we found out that the Senate had passed it. I mean, I'm sure there will be photos floating around. But it was the first time in a long time that we had some happy tears. Not such sad--
PHILLIPS: Yes, we were all together.
COLLINS: Yes.
JONES: Yes, and we were all together. It couldn't have been more beautiful moment, truly.
PHILLIPS: That was validation for us.
JONES: Yes.
PHILLIPS: That was the moment that we felt seen and heard.
JONES: That we might be (ph) right?
COLLINS: Jena-Lisa. Wendy. Lisa. Thank you so much for being here.
Congressmen, you as well, for joining us multiple times and obviously leading on this.
Thank you all so much.
KHANNA: Thank you.
MASSIE: Thank you.
JONES: Thank you.
AVIS: Thank you.
PHILLIPS: Thank you for your support.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: Up next here on THE SOURCE. Hakeem Jeffries is going to join me live. There's a lot to discuss with the House Democratic Leader, on what happens next, here in Washington, on the Epstein saga.
Plus, the controversy that is swirling around the House Democrat tonight, as Epstein's messages revealed that she was texting with him at an eye-opening moment in 2019.
And President Trump today was joined, inside the Oval Office, by the Saudi Crown Prince, who the U.S. Intel says ordered that gruesome killing of an American-based journalist.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You're mentioning somebody that was extremely controversial. A lot of people didn't like that gentleman that you're talking about. Whether you like him or didn't like him, things happened. But he knew nothing about it, and we can leave it at that. You don't have to embarrass our guest by asking a question like that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:25:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: With the bill to force the release of the Epstein files, now cleared through the House, going through the Senate, and on its way to President Trump's desk soon. Tonight, a Republican effort, to punish a Democratic colleague, over her contact with Jeffrey Epstein, failed inside of the House.
That's because, moments ago, lawmakers rejected a resolution to censure Democratic Delegate Stacey Plaskett -- she represents the Virgin Islands -- for texting with Jeffrey Epstein during a 2019 hearing that featured Donald Trump's former fixer, Michael Cohen.
These were texts that were among the 20,000 pages of documents the House released, last week, and they show that Epstein texted Stacey Plaskett, saying, quote, Cohen brought up RONA - keeper of the secrets, referring to Trump's longtime assistant, Rhona Graff.
Plaskett responded, quote, "RONA?" And then asked, Quick I'm up next is that an acronym?
Epstein replied, That's his assistant.
A few minutes later, Plaskett asked this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEL. STACEY PLASKETT (D-VI): Is Miss Rhona -- what is Miss Rhona's position?
MICHAEL COHEN, AMERICAN LAWYER: Rhona Graff is the -- Mr. Trump's executive assistant.
PLASKETT: And would she be able to corroborate many of the statements that you have made here?
COHEN: Yes, she was -- her office is directly next to his, and she's involved in a lot that went on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: A minute after Plaskett wrapped up her questioning there, Epstein texted her, quote, "Good work."
The text exchange comes just three months after the Miami Herald published its investigation, detailing Epstein's abuse of young girls.
And tonight, House Democrats are fiercely defending Stacey Plaskett, with the Leader, Hakeem Jeffries, calling the censure vote a political stunt, as Plaskett is echoing that defense and denying that Epstein had any influence on her questions.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PLASKETT: They've taken a text exchange which shows no participation, no assistance, no involvement in any illegal activity and weaponized it for political theater, because that's what this is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And my source tonight is the Democratic Leader in the House, Hakeem Jeffries.
And thank you, sir, for being here. Obviously, a lot of movement up on Capitol Hill today.
And you heard Stacey Plaskett there. She was arguing, her texts with Jeffrey Epstein were not illegal. But in your view, were they appropriate?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): Well, Stacey Plaskett is not accused of violating any House rule, any law, any statute. And she's clearly and unequivocally denounced Jeffrey Epstein.
And I think what the survivors fought for today is the type of transparency that came out of the House, went through the Senate, and is now on its way to Donald Trump's desk, where hopefully he'll sign it into law.
Because, at the end of the day, all the American people are asking for is just the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, which is why these Epstein files that Donald Trump and his administration has been hiding for months need to be released.
COLLINS: But do you think it was appropriate for her to be texting with Jeffrey Epstein, a 11 years after he pleaded guilty just--
JEFFRIES: I mean, I have not had a conversation with Stacey Plaskett to discuss this issue, because we've been focused today on making sure that there was a decisive vote, as it related to the Epstein files and the release. I'm thankful for the work of Representative Massie, of Ro Khanna, but most importantly, the survivors.
COLLINS: Do you plan to talk to her about it?
[21:30:00]
JEFFRIES: I think that we successfully defeated a resolution that lacked any basis, was uncredited -- was not credible, and was being brought by an individual who was trying to weaponize this issue to reinvigorate his own failed gubernatorial campaign in South Carolina. It was rejected, on a bipartisan basis, on the floor today. That's the end of the story.
COLLINS: Yes, I was just asking if you personally believe messaging with Jeffrey Epstein, who was at that point, a registered sex offender, is appropriate for a member of the House Democratic Caucus.
JEFFRIES: That's the third time you've asked me this question, and I'm going to give you the same exact answer. Our focus today is on making sure that the Jeffrey Epstein files were released. If you want to have a conversation with Stacey Plaskett about it, I'm sure she'd be willing to talk to you. It was an illegitimate effort to try to remove her from the House Committee on Intelligence, and that was defeated in a bipartisan way.
COLLINS: Well, let me ask you about you. Because the White House has been highlighting an email that I'm sure you've seen today, that Jeffrey Epstein got in 2013. They say it shows you were soliciting money and dinner from an -- Epstein.
The email was not sent from you. It was sent from a political consulting firm called Dynamic SRG, that says, We are thrilled to announce we are working with Congressman Hakeem Jeffries. Shoot us an email or give us a call if you would like to get involved.
What's your response? Do you recall that email being sent to Jeffrey Epstein from that team?
JEFFRIES: Yes, of course, I have no recollection of the email. I've never had a conversation with him, never met him, know nothing about him, other than the extreme things that he's been convicted of doing. And that's why, I'm just strongly supportive of the effort, backing the survivors to make sure that everything can come out, whatever is in those Department of Justice files.
COLLINS: So you never got a donation from Jeffrey Epstein or anything like that?
JEFFRIES: Certainly not.
COLLINS: And just on this passing today, to this point, I mean, this is something that, even Ro Khanna told me, just a few moments ago, he never even thought it would get to this point today.
I wonder what it says to you that the House Speaker, Mike Johnson, fought this so much and had a concern over -- you know, he was saying this discharge petition would create new victims, as he argued, because it was requiring the DOJ to release information where maybe the FBI hadn't reviewed it and determined it's not credible.
I wonder what you made of how this culminated tonight.
JEFFRIES: Well, I think it was a decisive bipartisan vote that, I think, clearly, despite all of the efforts, seven weeks of Republicans being on a paid vacation and refusing to swear in Representative Adelita Grijalva. Why was that done? Because they didn't want her to become the 218th signature on the discharge petition that ultimately resulted in the vote today.
And so, I don't think the Speaker has any credibility, as it relates to this issue. But I'm thankful for the outcome today, thankful for the decisive vote in the Senate. And now, it's on its way to President Trump's desk.
COLLINS: And the Plaskett censure did not pass.
There was a resolution, rebuking Congressman Chuy Garcia. He had timed the announcement of his retirement shortly after the state's filing deadline, and that was after his chief of staff had declared her own candidacy for that position, basically leaving her as the only Democrat able to run for that seat.
There are 23 Democrats who joined Republicans on the disapproval resolution. You urged members to oppose it. How come?
JEFFRIES: I think that it's an issue to be worked out by the people, back in the great State of Illinois. Chuy Garcia has been a consistent, progressive champion for the disenfranchised, a voice for the voiceless. He's done a lot of good. And I think it was a resolution of disapproval that I did not support.
That there are a lot of issues, I think, of importance to the American people, including the failed Trump economy, the Trump tariffs that are crushing people, the Republican healthcare crisis, the refusal by my Republican colleagues to extend the Affordable Care Act tax credits, the fact that that is going to result in tens of millions of people experiencing dramatically increased premiums, copays and deductibles. People are going to be unable to go and afford to see a doctor when they need one. There are a whole host of issues that the American people just made clear two weeks ago, during the general election, that they want to see addressed. It's the reason why Republicans were decisively defeated, across the country, and up and down the ballot. And yet, we continue to come to the floor of the House of Representatives, and they play partisan political games--
COLLINS: Yes.
JEFFRIES: --as opposed to dealing with the issues that matter, relative to driving down the high cost of living and making life better for the American people.
COLLINS: I think it's fair to say there's bigger issues people care about. But even some Democrats have said, This is why people don't like politics. This is slimy, and it disenfranchises voters by not letting them pick who they want to be running in that race. Did they have a point?
JEFFRIES: I think they can speak for themselves. And certainly, my view on the situation was that there are things that we should be focused on, in terms of solving problems for the American people, that the American people just decisively told us, two weeks ago, during the general election, they wanted us to work on.
[21:35:00]
COLLINS: House Minority Leader, Hakeem Jeffries, thank you for joining us, again tonight. Really appreciate your time.
JEFFRIES: Thank you.
COLLINS: Up ahead here. There is a lavish dinner happening, right now, at the White House.
The Saudi Crown Prince, Mohammed bin Salman, is there. Yes, that is the person, who President Trump's own, CIA, in his first term, said likely ordered the murder of Washington Post journalist, Jamal Khashoggi. In fact, they said he personally did so.
We'll take you inside the lavish dinner, including a surprising guest who is there. Elon Musk.
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[21:40:00]
COLLINS: Tonight, President Trump is hosting a lavish dinner, for the Saudi Crown Prince, Mohammed bin Salman, along with some of the most famous and powerful people in the world, including a guest list that has Apple CEO, Tim Cook. Elon Musk, who we have not seen at the White House in quite some time. It's actually his first known time being back at the White House since his blowup with President Trump.
All of this is part of a warm White House welcome for MBS, a leader who was once treated as a global pariah. The Crown Prince earned that status because of the brutal murder of Jamal Khashoggi, who, a dissident journalist, who was dismembered by Saudi agents inside the Turkey -- the consulate in Turkey, in 2018.
Inside the Oval Office today, the President actually intervened when a reporter asked a question to MBS about this, and the President instead lashed out at that reporter.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARY BRUCE, CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, ABC NEWS: The U.S. intelligence concluded that you orchestrated the brutal murder of a journalist.
TRUMP: He's done a phenomenal job. You're mentioning somebody that was extremely controversial. A lot of people didn't like that gentleman that you're talking about. Whether you like him or didn't like him, things happened. But he knew nothing about it, and we can leave it at that. You don't have to embarrass our guest by asking a question like that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, despite what the President said there, that MBS had nothing to do with this. The President's own CIA, in his first term, assessed, with high confidence, that the Crown Prince had personally ordered his killing.
Trump himself, at the time, is on camera, calling it the worst coverup ever. Since then, his relationship with Saudi Arabia has changed. It's only gotten warmer. His own relationship with MBS has evolved.
And today's defense of the Crown Prince was actually previewed, when there was this 2020 admission by President Trump, to the journalist, Bob Woodward, for his book, "The Trump Tapes."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOB WOODWARD, AMERICAN JOURNALIST, AUTHOR, "THE TRUMP TAPES": So, what happened, sir?
TRUMP: I saved his a**. That's what happened.
WOODWARD: You saved whose a**?
TRUMP: MBS.
WOODWARD: Yes, why?
TRUMP: They were coming down on him very strongly. But I was able to get Congress to leave him alone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I'm joined tonight by Republican senator, John Curtis, a member of the Foreign Relations Committee.
It's great to have you here.
Because obviously you're a senator now. You were a Congressman, when all of this was happening.
SEN. JOHN CURTIS (R-UT): Yes.
COLLINS: And you actually co-sponsored a bill about putting sanctions on Saudi Arabia, after Jamal Khashoggi's killing, for the killing of it. What's it like when you see the President say that MBS had nothing to do with his murder?
CURTIS: Well, Kaitlan, going back those few years, I remember almost a sick feeling in my stomach when I heard about what happened over there. And today, I had that exact same feeling. Just bringing this topic up is really, really sad, and, as you know, gruesome, and I think it's wrong not to confront it for what it is.
COLLINS: I mean, he not only didn't confront it. He almost justified his murder by saying he was very controversial, and a lot of people didn't like Jamal Khashoggi.
CURTIS: So, look, I don't care if you don't like somebody, or if they're controversial, like, we all agree, like, that's not somebody you murder, right? So, to me, it's just very, very clear, it was a terrible thing that happened, and we should condemn it, and not be apologetic about that.
COLLINS: I think a jarring moment was when the reporter was asking about it. They weren't actually asking President Trump for his view. They were asking MBS, saying that there's a lot of Americans who are upset that he's inside the Oval Office today. It's the first time he's been back, since Jamal Khashoggi was killed. Obviously, after 9/11 as well, a lot of families and victims there that are -- that are upset by his presence inside the Oval Office today.
And so, for the President to lash out at the reporter, Mary Bruce, who's a great reporter from ABC News, saying, We're going to threaten your license, your broadcasting license, over this. While sitting next to an authoritarian leader who the CIA says, ordered the killing of a reporter.
Does that represent America very well, in your view?
CURTIS: Well, I -- look, I never try to get into the President's head. That's never been very successful for me.
We do have a problem, and the previous administration confronted it as well, and that is, we do want a relationship with Saudi Arabia. We don't want them getting closer to China. We do want them to join the Abraham Accords. And if the President's walking that line carefully, I think there's a place to walk. But I think we ought to be very, very clear what happened was totally unacceptable.
COLLINS: Yes, he didn't seem to be walking it very carefully. I mean, he could have just also let MBS answer the question. I would be interested to see what we had to say. Let me ask you about what else is happening on Washington -- in Washington today, and also on Capitol Hill. The Senate is moving at breakneck speed, which, as you know--
CURTIS: It doesn't, right, yes.
COLLINS: --doesn't happen very often.
CURTIS: By the way, I was presiding tonight, when all of that went down.
COLLINS: And what did you make of the fact that John Thune, after saying in July, he didn't actually even think this would hit the floor in your chamber. Now saying, it's going to pass without even actually having to go down the roll call, and say, yes, yes, yes.
[21:45:00]
CURTIS: Yes. So those that are familiar with the Senate procedures knows what happened today was very, very rare. For a 100 senators, none to object to this. All it takes is one to object, and this doesn't go the way that it went. 100 said, no (ph).
And, look, when I first came into politics, I was a mayor, very early. They taught -- the first lesson they taught me was, Tell it all, and tell it fast. And people demand and expect transparency.
And this has been about transparency from the very beginning. And when you -- when you're not transparent, it only gets worse.
And the reality of it is, you know, people have said, Well, why did this take so long? We really should be saying, Why did it take four years, not five months, right? Like, we should have done this a very, very long time ago.
And that was, for me, as a Republican, that felt a little hypocritical for my Democratic colleagues to point the -- wag the finger at us, knowing that four years ago, they had the House, the Senate, and the Presidency. They could have brought this up. Chuck Schumer never brought this for a vote.
COLLINS: Yes, and even before that, obviously, when Jeffrey Epstein had initially been arrested, and then -- and then died by suicide.
CURTIS: Yes.
COLLINS: Let me ask you, because it has been two months now, it's hard to believe, since Charlie Kirk was assassinated, and it was -- he was speaking at a university in your state, your home state, when all this happened.
In response to this, you have introduced this new bill. It is called the Algorithmic Accountability Act. And you're doing so with a Democrat, Senator Mark Kelly, someone our audience knows well.
What do you want people to know about this bill and why you think it matters?
CURTIS: First of all, let me thank Senator Kelly. He actually went to UVU, with me, this last week, and he and I did a CNN town hall meeting there.
So, what I would like people to know about this is we demand every industry produce a safe product. And if they don't, we hold them accountable. Why aren't we doing that here? And it's time to do it.
And the best analogy for people to think about is think about the post office. So, when they deliver -- if I sent you a letter, they come and they deliver that letter. They don't look at it, and that is their job. And so, we don't hold them accountable for the content of my letter.
But that's not what's happening. Social media is taking that letter, opening it up, reading it. They know everything about you, and they're trying to decide if they're actually going to show that to you. And then sometimes, they'll take that letter, photocopy it a 100 million times, and send it out to a 100 million people. Not just send it out, but force it on a 100 million people.
Now, I have no beef against social media, but I do think they need to be responsible, like every other industry. And Section 230 has protected them from that. So, our bill simply says, If you're a good actor? Great. We need you. We need social media. But if your product causes harm? You're now going to be liable for it.
COLLINS: Senator John Curtis, thank you for your time tonight. Thanks for joining me.
CURTIS: Thanks, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: And, of course, we'll continue to follow that.
And up next here. On this fallout today. The President is someone who is known for his political acumen, being able to read his base. Makes it all the more shocking that he actually was forced into signing a bill, is going to be, that he has resisted for months. We're going to dig into this change, and whether or not Marjorie Taylor Greene was on to something about MAGA being ruptured, next.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MASSIE: So, I do think when he told the MAGA base, You're no longer my supporters, if you still want these documents released? He damaged himself. But he mended that a little bit, this week.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That's Republican congressman, Thomas Massie, telling me earlier tonight that Trump's reversal on the Epstein files might have helped him.
My political sources are here. Paul Begala and Doug Heye.
And Doug, that's what Thomas Massie is saying, that actually, this is -- he saved himself in the end.
Marjorie Taylor Greene today, at that press conference, was saying, this has created a rupture in MAGA.
I mean, Trump is supposed to be really good at reading his base. He typically is. Did he totally misread the Epstein situation?
DOUG HEYE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST, FORMER RNC COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: He did.
And first, let me say, I think Paul would agree with me, as an old House guy, Congratulations to these members of Congress.
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Oh, yes.
HEYE: When you talk about doing a discharge petition? Good luck. It never works. I'm 04. You're 04.
BEGALA: Yes.
HEYE: Good job for them for getting that through.
And Trump did misread that. And I say that because, over the summer, I was in Lake Ozark, Missouri, and there's this one strip of bars and things like that. And there's a store called Teresa's Trump Shop. So, I walked in, and it's all your Trump paraphernalia. If you want T- shirts of Trump as Rambo and all that, this is your place.
And I talked to the woman, full disclosure, I don't know if it was Teresa, and I asked, Do you have anything that says, Release the Epstein files?
And she said, No, gosh, we probably should. And then she said, What's the holdup?
And so, as this process has gone on, not just in the past week or so, but ever since then, I think about that woman I spoke to, who was -- her life is invested in Donald Trump, and she has a problem with these files not being released.
And we'll see what happens in the coming weeks. I'm not optimistic. I think about that voter in Missouri.
BEGALA: Well, I was so impressed with your interview. With Ro Khanna, and Thomas Massie, those members of Congress, the Republicans who stood up to Mr. Trump. Nancy Mace, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert, these were--
COLLINS: And no one else really gets credit for this, right? I mean, they were the ones who were-- (CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Those three -- those four Republicans. Khanna in my party.
But the survivors you talk to, the courage, the poise. Hemingway said, courage is grace under pressure. These women were assaulted when they were girls. They were children. And they're showing such strength and such grace under that pressure.
I, like Doug, I'm very happy this passed. I'm very worried that Mr. Trump is -- and the Justice Department is going to use these brand-new investigations that they just decided to open up, as an excuse to hide these files for longer. And it won't help Trump.
It is -- you know, you may not know this about me. I went to University of Texas. On the main building at the University of Texas, etched in stone, is this inscription from Jesus. John 8:32. Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. I believe that.
Mr. Trump seems to believe, We shall know the truth. And the truth scares the hell out of him. I don't know what he's so afraid of, but he's got to put these out. They're going to come out. He's got to do it.
[21:55:00]
COLLINS: I mean, it's just genuinely become a bipartisan issue, though, where Republicans want this out, Democrats want this out. I mean, these are Republicans who are saying -- or saying, they don't actually think it will hurt Trump. That's what Thomas Massie has argued.
HEYE: Well, Trump seems to think that. But understand, members of Congress also want to demonstrate that they've done something, so every member can say, I supported this.
COLLINS: Yes.
Doug Heye. Paul Begala. We'll see what happens, when President Trump signs it.
They were arguing that the survivors should be there at that signing. We'll see if that happens.
And still ahead today. There was a huge ruling today that could have big implications for the midterm elections. It actually launched that huge change that we saw in so many different states. I'll explain, next.
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COLLINS: There was a big legal setback, for Republicans, in their push to keep control of the House, next year. A court has blocked Texas from using that new congressional map, that Republicans just redrew, at President Trump's request, to help them pick up five more seats, in the midterm elections. [22:00:00]
It is that map that set off a nationwide redistricting war that has been playing out. And now, a federal court has stepped in, and said that the map is likely an unconstitutional racial gerrymander, and they are ordering Texas to use its previous map from 2021 instead.
The Attorney General weighed in and said, she strongly disagrees with today's ruling, and that Texas is already moving to appeal the decision to the Supreme Court, which means, we could potentially hear from them, on this soon.
Thanks so much for joining us tonight.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
