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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
U.S. Seizes Oil Tanker, Escalating Pressure On Venezuela's Leader; Senate To Vote On GOP & Dem Health Care Plans Tomorrow; SC Attorney General On Nancy Mace's Accusation: "Categorical Lie." Aired 9-10p ET
Aired December 10, 2025 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: --oh. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness.
A plane just crashed onto a -- on top--
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On a highway.
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ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: And the driver of that car was taken to a hospital with minor injuries. The pilot and the passenger on the plane walked away without a scratch.
The news continues. Thanks for watching. I'll see you, tomorrow. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Tonight, the President announces a major seizure off the Venezuelan coast, not of drugs, but of oil. What this major escalation means, and what it means for what's next?
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
We begin with that breaking news from the White House, and a significant escalation in President Trump's efforts to put the squeeze on a tyrant, specifically the Venezuelan dictator, Nicolas Maduro.
This video, released tonight by the Attorney General, shows U.S. forces fast-roping from helicopters, storming the deck with their guns drawn, as they seized control of a massive oil tanker off Venezuela's coast.
Word of the mission, the surprise mission, came from the President himself today. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: As you probably know, we've just seized a tanker on the coast of Venezuela. Large tanker, very large. Largest one ever seized, actually. It was seized for very good reason.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Venezuela's government is responding and calling the U.S. seizure a barefaced robbery and act of international piracy, that they say is aimed at taking the country's oil.
The President was asked about what's going to happen to the oil on that tanker, which we are told here at CNN, was headed for Cuba.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: What happens to the oil on that ship?
TRUMP: Well, we keep it, I guess. I don't know.
REPORTER: When does it go? What port does it go to?
TRUMP: Well, you have to follow the tanker. You know, you're a good newsman. Just follow the tanker.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, for Venezuela's leader, oil is big money, and money is power. The Trump administration has accused him of running a narco- terrorist cartel, sending drugs to the United States.
And we're told, the seizure happened in international waters, and that there were no casualties in the scene that you see here among the U.S. forces or for the ship's crew.
This tanker, named The Skipper, was under U.S. sanctions actually, for its role in shipping oil from Venezuela and Iran, previously. And experts tell us that this appears to be a legally-justified by-the- book mission.
But I should note tonight that seizing sanctioned oil is notably a different mission from what we've been hearing from top Trump administration officials, and the reason that they have declared is behind the largest U.S. military buildup that we have seen in the Caribbean in decades.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It was massive amounts of drugs coming into our country to kill a lot of people.
JD VANCE (R), U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: We want to make sure that our young people stop dying of this terrible poison, this fentanyl and other drugs that are being brought in by these cartels. (APPLAUSE)
MARCO RUBIO, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF STATE: The President has been very clear that he's going to use the full power of America and the full might of the United States to take on and eradicate these drug cartels.
PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: The American people are safer, because narco-terrorists know you can't bring drugs through the water and eventually on land, if necessary, to the American people.
PAM BONDI, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL: Maduro uses foreign terrorist organizations like TdA, Sinaloa, and Cartel of the Suns, to bring deadly drugs and violence into our country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Stopping the flow of drugs is the reason that we've been given for those nearly two dozen boat strikes that have happened since September.
Critics have said that the Trump administration is using the drug war as a pretense for regime change in Venezuela. And the President declared, just yesterday, that the Venezuelan leader's days are, as he put it, numbered.
My sources tonight bring decades of real-world experience to this conversation. We've got retired Air Force Colonel, Cedric Leighton, and the former Deputy Director of National Intelligence, Beth Sanner, here with us.
And Colonel, first, I just want to talk about this video. Because the President -- we had heard rumblings this was happening. The President confirmed it moments later, when the reporters were inside the room. And then Pam Bondi released this video. We'll show it again here. It's quite remarkable.
Can you just tell me what you're seeing when you look at this video?
COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST, U.S. AIR FORCE (RET.): Yes, Kaitlan. So, what you're seeing here is basically they're fast-roping down from the helicopter onto the deck.
This is one of the maritime response forces. This is -- these are basically the Coast Guard's version of special operations forces. They have two teams, one on the East Coast, one -- another one on the West Coast.
This one is the one from the East Coast. And what they're doing here is they're going into -- where the basically the pilot house, where the captain of the ship, the skipper of the ship, is actually steering it. And they take that over first, basically to control the ship.
[21:05:00]
And in this case, The Skipper, as the ship is known, is this large oil tanker, and that oil tanker is basically designed to take a large amount of oil from ports in the Middle East, to other places.
The other thing that's interesting about this ship is it's probably owned by a Russian oligarch. So, there's a connection here between the Russian oligarchs and the Iranians, as well as what you see here with Venezuela.
COLLINS: Yes, and it was sanctioned by the Biden administration previously.
Beth, what's your read, when you look at this? Because I think some people saw this today and thought, Wow, get the alarm. Given of what's been happening with the boat strikes. But maybe there's a little bit of a difference in the two of these.
BETH SANNER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST, FORMER DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: I think there's a huge difference. I mean, one is that these are -- this is a sanctioned vessel doing business that has been, you know, not just the Biden administration, Trump one, Biden continued sanctions, against the Maduro regime, PDVSA being the national oil company, as well as these tankers.
And these tankers, as Cedric was saying, is part of this kind of international shadow fleet, and Iranian-linked. And there was oil going back and forth between Iran and Venezuela for many years. And this is just part of this trade.
So, I personally think that, if you're going to have 20 percent of our deployed naval forces in the Caribbean, I think that, you know, interdicting the lifeblood of this illegitimate regime is something that is a positive thing.
But I think the real question is, the reason that we're all wondering is, no one really knows why they're there. There's lack of clarity. So, if they had gone in and said, Oh, we're trying to stranglehold this Maduro regime, so he will step down? That would be one thing. But we don't really know. We get drugs. We get immigration. We get this.
COLLINS: Yes, we've been hearing a lot of different reasons. It's a huge buildup, as we were showing that's playing out there right now.
Maduro himself was seen earlier. He was singing, Don't worry, be happy. I think that is obviously not the message the Trump administration is trying to send to him. But I wonder what you make of, of how he's -- what you -- what you read into how he's looking at all of this?
LEIGHTON: Yes, I think Maduro is trying to put the best face he possibly can on this. And when you see him doing these kinds of things, he's looking at this in a way, where he is going to try to outlast anything that the U.S. is doing.
But one other thing I wanted to add to Beth's point about the forces that are arrayed there. Keep in mind, who is lead agency in this particular case. It was the Coast Guard. Everything that was done here was by the book in terms of they had a warrant. They had all the things. COLLINS: Why does it matter that it was the Coast Guard?
LEIGHTON: Well, the Coast Guard is Homeland Security asset, and they are charged with carrying out the laws when it comes to--
SANNER: Law enforcement.
LEIGHTON: Law enforcement missions. Exactly.
SANNER: Yes.
LEIGHTON: And what they're doing as a law enforcement entity is they're interdicting drugs, just like they've done hundreds of times before.
SANNER: Yes.
LEIGHTON: And that's really what they're -- what they're actually--
SANNER: And they wanted to do this under Trump one.
LEIGHTON: Yes.
SANNER: But they didn't have the forces in the region in order to interdict these boats that were these oil -- the oil tankers.
COLLINS: And is that something that you ever talked about in your briefings in Trump one--
SANNER: I will never tell.
COLLINS: OK. Well that's -- I had to try, you know?
Beth Sanner, always keeping her intelligence secrets.
Colonel Cedric Leighton as well.
Thank you both for being here.
I've also got a U.S. Senator who sits on the Foreign Relations and Armed Services Committee, here with me. Democrat of Virginia, Senator Tim Kaine.
And thank you, Senator, for being here.
I do think on the premise of what we've heard of why there is such a huge military buildup, U.S. military buildup, in the Caribbean, one question some people might have tonight is, how seizing an oil tanker helps stop the flow of drugs into the U.S. What would you say to that?
SEN. TIM KAINE (D-VA): Well, Kaitlan, I think it just raises even more questions about what is this mission about.
I'll say this. The strikes on the boats in international waters, the evidence is flimsy about whether each of these strikes is going against a boat that's actually carrying drugs. I can't say more than that, because what I know, I know from classified settings, since the Senate has been unwilling to hold a single public hearing, in either the Armed Services Committee, or the Foreign Relations Committee, about this military operation. But the whole notion that these strikes are to stop boats with drugs on them is flimsy, in my view.
And now, here we have the seizure of an oil tanker. Is it about drugs? Is it about the seizing of oil? The President says the U.S. will keep the oil. Is it about regime change?
[21:10:00]
Why exactly have we deployed so many of our troops, including Virginians, into a mission where we're using military action to kill people, to slaughter survivors of shipwrecks on the open sea, in violation of U.S. and international law, and to do so in a way that even key Pentagon leaders, the head of SOUTHCOM, the legal adviser of SOUTHCOM, key allies like the U.K., are raising serious questions about the legality of this entire mission.
It's time for Congress to take this out of the classified facility, and have public hearings about it, so the American public can see what's really at stake.
COLLINS: Yes, I think people would like to hear what y'all are hearing behind closed doors.
But on this tanker, just for a moment. It was sanctioned by President Biden, by his administration. Do you believe that the Trump administration has the legal authority to do what they did today?
KAINE: They haven't presented that authority to Congress, and I'd want to dig into it. If it was just a matter -- if what the Trump administration was doing was only this? That would be one thing.
But to do this together with boat strikes that are killing folks, to say, as the President has, that he's authorized covert operations in Venezuela, that he may well soon start a land invasion in Venezuela, and to amass military troops surrounding Venezuela? You've got to look at this in the context of all of these recent actions, which raise huge questions for my constituents, many of which I'm not allowed to answer, because the only thing that the administration has told me about this has been in classified settings.
I don't think they want this out to the public. They're walking back, for example, on their promise of President Trump, to release the video of the fatal strike on shipwrecked survivors, which they said they would do, and now they're walking that back.
Let's bring the American public into this and have a debate, a transparent debate, about, why are we doing this, what's at stake, what's the legal rationale?
COLLINS: What I've heard from lawmakers, coming out of those meetings, with top Trump officials, about releasing that video, that second part of the video, is that there is kind of a dispute over revealing sources and methods, making sure you're protecting that, kind of meeting both ends of that.
But I think one question people might have is, how can you release part of the video, showing the initial strike, but you can't show the second part? Does that make sense?
KAINE: Kaitlan, you've put your finger on it.
The Secretary, I heard him speak in California, last week, at a defense forum, and he said, Well, we couldn't release that second video because we would reveal intelligent gathering -- intelligence gathering sources and methods.
Wait a minute. You released to the world, in like promotional videos, on the President's Truth Social page, and almost in commercials, your braggadocious video about the actual strike that destroyed the boat on September 2nd. You've revealed the sources and methods. It was the same video stream that picked up the later attack on the survivors. But you're now going to claim that you can't release that?
If you'd kept it all secret, that would have been one thing. But you went out and bragged to the world about sinking this boat, and now you're suddenly afraid for the world to see what really happened? That tells me there's a little bit of a guilty conscience going on. There's a reason they don't want folks to see this, because I think if people did see it, even more legal questions and strategic questions would bubble to the surface.
COLLINS: The President said something today, about the President of Colombia, that stood out to me. I want you to just listen to that comment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Colombia is producing a lot of drugs, lot of -- they have cocaine factories that they make cocaine, as you know, and they sell it right into the United States. So, he better wise up, or he'll be next. He'll be next too. And I hope he's listening. He's going to be next.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Next what?
KAINE: Well, look, the President has indicated that these attacks that may be forthcoming on Venezuela could also extend to other countries. I don't know if he's thinking about China, since that's where more of the fentanyl comes from. That's the real source of the fentanyl problem. I don't know if he's thinking about Mexico, because that's where so much of the fentanyl comes from.
But the issue that, Kaitlan, I've been raising is Constitution is clear. We shouldn't be at war without a vote of Congress.
Those who think this war is justified? Great. Let him introduce an Authorization for Military Force and vote on it, in Congress, after a debate that the American public can see, to make their own decisions about whether war is necessary in this circumstance.
But we don't have a government, where we've allowed presidents to unilaterally decide to be judge, jury and executioner, to decide who to wage war against.
And I always point out, the Framers of the Constitution put the power to make decisions about war in the hands of Congress. Even though George Washington was president. They loved George Washington. They revered George Washington. But they didn't even think that a president, as distinguished in military service as George Washington, should have the sole power to declare whether to take the United States to war.
COLLINS: Senator Tim Kaine, thank you for joining us tonight.
KAINE: So glad to do it.
COLLINS: And earlier, President Trump proudly admitted something that he has repeatedly denied, that he ever said.
[21:15:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: And we had a meeting, and I said, Why is it we only take people from shithole countries, right?
(LAUGHTER)
TRUMP: Why can't we have some people from Norway, Sweden? Just a few.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Well, we might have some people from those countries if they have a million dollars to spare, because the President has now rolled out the Trump Gold Card to skip the line when it comes to U.S. citizenship.
And also, about last night and what you heard here on this set.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. NANCY MACE (R-SC): It was an incredible hit job. It was effective. Was a very effective political hit job. But that's all that it was. And--
COLLINS: Who do you think was doing the hit job?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That was Congresswoman Nancy Mace, last night, claiming a police report about an alleged airport outburst on her part that they said she exacerbated. She says that report was falsified. And she named names. The person that she named is actually going to join me to respond tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:20:00]
COLLINS: Tonight, the much-coveted American Dream has now been given a price tag by the Trump administration, for a million dollars, for the President's new Gold Card.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Howard, maybe you'll give a little description of the Trump Gold Card, please.
HOWARD LUTNICK, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF COMMERCE: Sure. So, for an individual, it's $1 million. And for a corporation, it's $2 million.
Obviously, they have to be perfect people in America, and having passed the vetting after five years, they'll be available to become citizens. And then the corporation can put someone else on the card.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The official government website went live today. It promises to unlock life in America with a gold card that bears the President's face, his signature, and a bald eagle, and the Statue of Liberty. The card would allow foreigners to pay a million dollars, or companies, on their behalf, to pay $2 million, in order to expedite visa applications for foreign workers to the United States.
The administration rolled out its new plan to admit perfect people, as they put it, that's a quote, into America. Hours after we heard the President say this about immigrants during that rally in Pennsylvania last night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I've also announced a permanent pause on Third World migration, including from hellholes like Afghanistan--
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: --Haiti, Somalia and many other countries.
(APPLAUSE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shithole.
(LAUGHTER)
TRUMP: I didn't say shithole. You did.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: Remember, I said that to the senators. They came in. The Democrats. They wanted to be bipartisan.
We had a meeting, and I said, Why is it we only take people from shithole countries, right?
(LAUGHTER)
TRUMP: Why can't we have some people from Norway, Sweden? Just a few.
(LAUGHTER)
TRUMP: Let's have a few. From Denmark.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: What you just heard was the President confirming that he said something that actually for years, he has denied saying. That's because when multiple outlets, including CNN, reported that Trump referred to those countries that way, in that 2018 meeting with lawmakers inside the Oval Office, Trump denied it at the time. I mean, his tweet is still up. In January, 2018, he said, quote, "The language used by me at the DACA meeting was tough, but this was not the language used."
He even doubled down, about an hour later, he denied that he ever said anything derogatory about Haiti before adding, quote, "Probably should record future meetings - unfortunately, no trust."
Those were denials that I reported on from the White House, that same morning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Circling back to the tweet that you just read from the President's non-denial denial that he referred to Haiti as a quote, shithole. What he does not deny there is referring to other African countries as shitholes, or saying that the United States should take more people from countries like Norway. So, it's important to keep those two things in mind, as you read the President's tweet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, it's important to note that the President, last night, not only contradicted his own denials on this. But also the Republicans, who went out to defend him against the only Democrat who was inside the room with them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): To no surprise, the President started tweeting this morning, denying that he used those words. It is not true. He said these hate-filled things, and he said them repeatedly.
SEN. TOM COTTON (R-AR): I didn't hear that word either. I certainly didn't hear what Senator Durbin has said repeatedly.
FORMER SEN. DAVID PERDUE, (R) GEORGIA: I'm telling you, he did not use that word, George. And I'm telling you, it's a gross misrepresentation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And my political sources are here tonight
And Bill Stepien, you were inside the White House. You were the Director of Political Affairs in 2018, if I remember correctly, when all this was happening. I mean, it just goes to the point that, oftentimes when there was reporting, there are straight-up denials from the President, from the White House, from Republicans.
And now, the President has just confirmed all that reporting in 2018 was actually correct.
BILL STEPIEN, TRUMP'S 2020 CAMPAIGN MANAGER, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Look, I'm from New Jersey, so these words don't offend me.
But look, this is, I think a lot of people understand his sentiment here, right? We want to be the strongest, safest and best country. And it's hard to be that way or stay that way if we're attracting people from countries that don't agree with those philosophies.
I mean, this is almost like, our colleges and our universities in our country, right? We want to attract the best and the brightest, so they can remain elite. We can't be remaining elite, if we are not attracting the best and the brightest from around the country.
So, his coarse words aside, I think a lot of people understand his sentiment.
[21:25:00]
COLLINS: OK, but offensive or inoffensive, they straight-up denied it. And now, the President is confirming it. I mean, doesn't that undercut credibility at that point?
STEPIEN: Perhaps. I mean, we're -- this is how many years later, how many elections later? I was in the White House at the time, as you mentioned. I don't necessarily recall. I was not in the meeting. But time has passed, and maybe memories are different these days.
COLLINS: Jamal, you think it still matters?
JAMAL SIMMONS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, CO-HOST, TRAILBLAZE PODCAST, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT TO PRES. BIDEN: Yes.
COLLINS: Even though it is seven years later?
SIMMONS: Yes, well, Bill may not be offended. But my family is rooted in Africa, and I'm pretty offended. I think the fact that the President calls African nations, Caribbean nations, asshole countries. But all the European nations seem to be a place where we ought to get people.
I'm also offended by the idea that, because we look for people to go to schools and participate in American society, who may come from places that are maybe more disadvantaged, that somehow they're not exactly up to snuff.
What we find maybe often, is that there are a lot of people who are going to schools, because their families bought them admission to those schools, and they don't -- they don't turn out so well. So we don't look at that and say there's a problem, because people have these hereditary benefits.
I think we've got to have an America where everybody gets to participate. If we're going to build Team America, which ought to be the best team in the entire world, because we've got people from all over the world here. And we can have the best Team America if we allow everybody to compete.
And just like any team, not everybody is going to have the same abilities, right? You don't have -- not everybody on a basketball team is going to play center. Some people are going to be a point guard. Some people are going to play defense. So, you got to have a different kind of a team.
So, we ought to have a place where everybody can compete. And I hope that once we get past this horrible era that is, frankly, pretty tragic, we will go back to a time, when we welcome people to America from wherever they are, and we give them a chance to make their dreams possible, here in our country.
COLLINS: Bill, what do you make of the Gold Card? I mean, we'd kind of -- we knew this was in production. Now it's being finally rolled out by the White House.
But basically that you can pay a million dollars to get on this expedited basis, to get into the United States and get lawful permanent status. What do you -- do you think that's going to be effective?
STEPIEN: This has been around since 1990. President Bush signed this into law, the first President Bush, and it was re-upped under Joe Biden. So, this is -- this is long in existence. This is a bipartisan program. Just with a little bit of a different twist and a little different branding.
Look, this is -- this is not unlike the TSA program, right, where you apply, you submit an application, you pay a fee, you get vetted, and then you get to the front of the line. I mean, it works pretty well in airports, and I don't see why it would not work very well here.
It's worked for 35 years under a different name. The branding is certainly different. I think part of why Trump brands things the way he does is to rankle his opponents a little bit. That certainly happened here. But the program has been effective for 35 years. It will continue to be effective here, for sure.
COLLINS: Yes, I think also because he likes having his name on things as well, Bill. I don't think it's just to get after his opponents.
Jamal Simmons. Bill Stepien. Great to have you both here.
And speaking of what the President was saying today. He was jumping directly into the battle when it comes to who is going to have control of CNN's parent company, that is Warner Bros. Discovery.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: So, I think any deal should -- it should be guaranteed and certain that CNN is part of it, or sold separately. But I don't think the people that are running that company right now and running CNN, which is a very dishonest group of people, I don't think that should be allowed to continue. I think CNN should be sold along with everything else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And CNN Media Analyst, Brian Stelter, joins me now.
And Brian, maybe people aren't surprised to see the President weigh in on this, just given it's the President, and people are really familiar with how he -- how he does things. But it is still astounding to see a president get so directly involved in something--
BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA ANALYST: Yes.
COLLINS: --that federal regulators are going to have to decide on.
STELTER: A complete change from decades of precedent in America. No past president would have weighed in like this.
And President Trump, in his first term, avoided this kind of perception that he was intimately involved in big media mergers. When AT&T was trying to buy CNN, and the rest of Time Warner in 2017, Trump was active behind the scenes, but he claimed he was not involved.
This time, he's bragging about being involved.
And today, Kaitlan, a big change. He's directly inserting himself into this ongoing bidding war for WBD, by signaling that he favors Paramount. He is signaling that he's favoring the Paramount bid, the hostile takeover bid by CEO, David Ellison, by saying that he wants to see CNN's ownership change.
And right now, under the current plan that WBD and Netflix have, CNN's ownership stays the same. It gets transferred next year into a new company, called Discovery Global, but with the current management team, the current leadership, the current owners.
So, it seems that Trump is being clear. He wants Larry and David Ellison, his allies, or people who he views as his allies, to be in charge of CNN in the future, and he is making that very abundantly clear.
[21:30:00]
This comes a couple days after a Wall Street Journal report said that Ellison had indicated to the White House that he would make, quote, Sweeping changes to CNN. Paramount has not commented on that report or described it in any more detail. But that certainly raised a lot of eyebrows. I think it's probably why Trump was asked this question today.
And it sets a ball into motion that's probably going to keep rolling for a long time here, Kaitlan. There's not going to be a resolution in this bidding war for months, most likely, and then any potential sale, the Netflix deal that's already underway, or any takeover by Paramount, would take at least a year for regulators to review. So this is going to be a long process.
COLLINS: All right. Brian Stelter, we'll be checking in with you during that long process, I guess. Thanks for joining us tonight.
STELTER: Yes.
COLLINS: Also, when it comes to something we have been talking about, basically non-stop here in Washington for three months. House Speaker Mike Johnson told us on this show that Republicans would have a health care plan ready when the government reopened.
Time is running out though, when it comes for Congress to act before health care is going -- the cost of health care is going to skyrocket for millions of Americans.
One key Republican senator who also doubles as a doctor, is going to join me, right after this.
[21:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: With just 21 days left to address the expiring Obamacare subsidies, the Senate is set to vote, tomorrow, on two competing health care plans.
One bill that is being led by the Democrats would extend those expiring credits for three more years. While the Republican bill would do away with it entirely, and instead take the extra money from those tax credits and put it into a Health Savings Account for Americans.
Neither bill, though, is expected to have the support that it needs to pass. That means hanging in the balance are millions of Americans who could see their health care costs more than double, at the start of 2026.
On the other side of the Capitol, however, House Republicans have been also scrambling to find an alternate solution. But they made little headway, after huddling today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. RUSS FULCHER (R-ID): We don't coalesce easy around anything. It's just the nature of the beast.
REP. RALPH NORMAN (R-SC): The consensus is we need to come up with something, something that's, you know, that moves the ball forward.
REP. KEVIN KILEY (R-CA): I don't think you're going to achieve unanimity within either -- either conference on this issue.
What we need is a compromise that gets majority support.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: This has prompted one Republican senator, at least, to offer a compromise, here. On Tuesday, Senator Roger Marshall of Kansas pitched a five-pillar plan that would extend the subsidies for one year before converting them to Health Savings Accounts.
Senator Marshall joins me now.
And thank you, Senator, for being here.
I think one question people who aren't well-versed in Washington might want to know is, why is the Senate voting on these plans tomorrow, if neither one has the support to pass?
SEN. ROGER MARSHALL (R-KS): Well, Kaitlan, I think number one is we need to recognize that health care is in a crisis.
The Republicans want to put patients in charge rather than insurance companies. The Democrats want to just throw good money after bad money. So, in my opinion, neither one of them accomplish what we're hoping to do. But that's why the Marshall Plan will work, and we're going to get a vote on that tomorrow as well.
Our bill, number one, extends the subsidies for one year, and then we take -- start taking part of that money and putting you in control of your health care. We're going to put money in your health care savings account, and couple that with price tags, that we're going to let patients see what all the prices are. We require every provider in health care to give us what the price is for your procedures.
And when we couple price tags with your own savings account, then we're going to see savings. We're going to -- the American families will save a $1,000 a month if we do the Marshall Plan.
COLLINS: But does your Marshall Plan, not to be confused with the other Marshall Plan, does it have enough Republican -- does it have enough support period to pass?
MARSHALL: Well, we'll see. We're going to find out.
COLLINS: Yes, but you know.
MARSHALL: No, I don't know. What I don't know is, is that when people are forced to make a vote, what they may end up doing.
I think that we realize, to your point, both the votes, the first two votes, are going to fail tomorrow.
We have momentum on our side. This is a bipartisan approach to the problem. We extend the current extended enhanced subsidies for a year, then we put patients in control. And then we even use belt-and- suspenders to help people with preexisting conditions by establishing a high-risk pool.
COLLINS: But has any Democrat said they're going to vote yes on your plan?
MARSHALL: They haven't said they wouldn't vote for it yet. So, we'll find out.
COLLINS: OK. So you're very optimistic.
But do you have all Republicans on board with your plan?
MARSHALL: I would be surprised. There's a group of Republicans that are -- will never vote for continuing these subsidies. Look, tackling--
COLLINS: Right. So that -- and your plan includes extending the subsidies.
MARSHALL: Right--
COLLINS: So you can't -- if you can't get all support of all the Republicans, and these other two plans that they're going to get voted on? I think some people might look at this and say, Then, why are you guys voting on it? Shouldn't y'all still be discussing how to reach a compromise before you vote on something that isn't going to go anywhere?
MARSHALL: Well, look, I think the first step is, will the Democrats accept the work we're doing on fraud? And even today, the Democrats voted down my anti-fraud bill on this.
Look, a third of the patients that are on Obamacare right now did not file a claim, last year, for health insurance in any way, shape or form. So, we think there's $25 billion of fraud. If we can't get past the fraud issue, it's going to be hard to go beyond this.
But regardless, I'm not quitting. No matter what you say tonight, I'm not quitting. I'm going to keep trying. I think we got momentum on our side.
COLLINS: I'm not trying to convince you to quit. I just think some people who are about to lose their health care or going to see it double, may say, Why are you voting on it if it's not actually going to change the outcome?
But we did have you on before, to talk about this, as the government shutdown was underway, we were wondering what was going to happen. I want to remind people what you told me about, what y'all had been discussing behind the scenes.
MARSHALL: OK.
[21:40:00] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARSHALL: So, there's a lot of things we can do. These are not new concepts. Speaker Johnson and I have been working on this together for years.
We'll have a side-to-side bill, when they're come -- when they're come out, when they get their vote on Obamacare subsidies, giving you--
COLLINS: You're going to have a health care bill--
MARSHALL: We will.
COLLINS: --by the second week of December?
MARSHALL: We will. We've been working on this very, very hard for several years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: But if there are two different Republican-led plans tomorrow that you're voting on? If Republicans aren't even on the same page of what is the one best way to move forward here? What do you say to voters?
MARSHALL: I think that Democrats need to come across the aisle and vote for our bill. Look, I don't think it's feasible for me to get 53 Republican votes, but I may be able to get 40. So, why can't 40 Republicans and 20 Democrats vote on my bill? We give the Democrats, what they want. We extend the Biden subsidies. And the Republicans get what we want. We want to put patients in control, rather than insurance companies.
COLLINS: But if you could get all Republicans, you'd have to get fewer Democrats on board.
MARSHALL: Well, I can't change that. Look, tackling Obamacare is like tackling a buffalo that just ran through a barbed wire fence. And every time you try to peel off a layer of that barbed wire, you get poked. It's a tough deal. But regardless, however we can skin this cat, I want to do it. Our bill accomplishes all the goals, and it's bipartisan.
COLLINS: A lot of animals being injured in those metaphors.
But can I ask you on that? Because with your plan on the Health Savings Accounts, I think people have heard that, and that's in both of these bills, basically, the Republican-led bills that are going to be voted on. But people might see that and say, OK, but if that's going to work, how does that work for people who need insurance? If you have a cancer diagnosis? If you're injured really badly in a car accident?
MARSHALL: Right.
COLLINS: That $1,000 or $1,500 is not going to go very far in the hospital, as you know.
MARSHALL: Well certainly, let's go to the situation of today. Obamacare gave us $15,000 deductibles. So this will probably put -- if it's a $1,000 a person, maybe $1,500 a person, depending on your age. So a family of four, let's say the couple is 40-years-old, that's going to be $4,000 in your savings account. If you pair that with my price transparency bill, you're going to see the cost of health care drop 20 percent.
So, we're not going to fix this overnight. It took us 15 years of failed Obamacare policies to get us here. But this will start moving us back in the right.
And there's other things we need to do. As far as this person with the preexisting conditions, that develops cancers, that has just huge, huge health care issue? That's why we want to put them into a high- risk reinsurance pool and help take care of them as well.
COLLINS: Well, and you talk about 15 years of Obamacare. But that also means Republicans have had 15 years to come up with a solution, and have not yet done so.
MARSHALL: I'm not sure what -- you know, what we can say. It takes 60 votes for us to reverse this. Obamacare was done with just Democrat votes. Republicans have had multiple solutions out there. But again, this is a hard problem to tackle. I can't change the past. Here we are. Let's be pragmatic today. Let's go forward with our bill, which is going to drive the cost of health care down.
COLLINS: So basically, no solution yet for tomorrow, you say you're working on it. Do you believe the premiums will expire by the end of the month, there's not going to be a solution before then?
MARSHALL: I think the premiums expire. We do have a solution. But I need to find 60 votes to vote yes on it.
COLLINS: So you think they do expire.
A lot of Republicans are enrolled in Obamacare plans. And a Kaiser Family Foundation poll actually found that nearly six in 10 enrollees live in congressional districts that are represented by Republicans. So basically, it's not just Democrats who care about this. Republicans too.
If someone's subsidies expire, their premiums go up, and they call your office, come January, what are you going to say to them?
MARSHALL: Look, I'm doing my very best.
First of all, people that are making less than a $125,000 a year, the original Obamacare premium is going to stay there, and that's going to keep covering 80 percent of their premium. The peoples that are seeing the bigger rise are the folks that are making over $125,000 a year.
I'm doing everything I can. I'd like to expand health care savings account. I want to expand community health centers. We want to take on the pharmacy benefit managers. But it takes 60 votes. And if we can't get 60 votes, then we'll have to go through the reconciliation process.
COLLINS: Senator Roger Marshall, thank you for your time tonight. Keep us updated. We'll be watching what happens tomorrow on Capitol Hill.
MARSHALL: Yes.
COLLINS: Appreciate your time.
Up next. You saw it right here, last night, on THE SOURCE. Congresswoman Nancy Mace responded to that internal police report. She denies cursing out officers and that airport outburst and said instead, it was her primary opponent that was carrying out a hit job on her.
We're actually going to get that person's response, right after this.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Are you saying that you never said any of these quotes, that every single one is a lie?
MACE: You'll have to read it to me again. I did not say that--
COLLINS: Effing idiots.
MACE: I did not call them idiots.
COLLINS: Effing incompetent.
MACE: I didn't--
COLLINS: And you're an effing representative.
MACE: I did not say that. I did not call--
COLLINS: And you didn't say, I'm sick of your shit--
MACE: I have--
COLLINS: --I'm tired of having to wait. I should not have to wait. You guys are always effing late--
MACE: No.
COLLINS: --This is effing ridiculous.
MACE: No. I mean, no, I didn't -- I've never called a cop an idiot. That is a remarkably false statement--
COLLINS: But you're saying these police officers are lying then, who spoke to the investigators.
MACE: I -- I am absolutely saying that that report was falsified, a 100 percent fictitious, falsified.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That was Republican congresswoman, Nancy Mace, here on THE SOURCE, last night, directly refuting that police report that just came out and says she berated and cursed at Charleston airport security and police, back in October.
Throughout the interview, Mace, who is running for governor of South Carolina, I should note, repeatedly insisted that what officials accused her of in that 10-page report wasn't true.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MACE: The report was actually falsified.
You're quoting a document that was, in part, falsified.
That is a falsified document. There are things in there -- most of what's in there that's quoted is not true.
I am absolutely saying that that report was falsified, a 100 percent fictitious, falsified.
You're just going to take the words from a falsified police report and say, Oh, this happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, as for who exactly Mace believes is behind this? She says it's one of her Republican primary opponents in South Carolina's governor's race.
[21:50:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MACE: It was an incredible hit job. It was effective. Was a very effective political hit job. But that's all that it was. And--
COLLINS: Who do you think was doing the hit job?
MACE: Oh, it was the Attorney General, Alan Wilson. I mean, literally--
COLLINS: You think he conspired, like with the police and TSA--
MACE: Oh, a 100 percent. Six--
COLLINS: --at the airport?
MACE: Six minutes after they released the falsified reports, he had a news release and a press thing on social media, like it was all, boom, boom, boom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And here to respond tonight to that allegation is my source this evening. South Carolina Attorney General, Alan Wilson.
And thank you so much for being here.
Obviously, we wanted to have you on, given she invoked you by name last night. What was your reaction to what the Congresswoman said there?
ALAN WILSON, (R) SOUTH CAROLINA ATTORNEY GENERAL, (R) CANDIDATE FOR SOUTH CAROLINA GOVERNOR: Well, first off, it's a categorical lie, what she said, as related to my involvement in this. It's also delusional and crazy for her to make these kind of crazy accusations.
It's not my fault that Miss Mace showed up late, the day that she showed up at the airport. It's not my fault that she showed up at the wrong location. I did not make her cuss out the men and women at the TSA and the security checkpoint. I did not make her tweet this -- about this a 100 times in the days that followed.
I did not make her have a press conference, which, by the way, at that press conference, she actually said that she hoped that she had cussed them out and used the F-word, when she was asked by reporters, the day after that all came out.
So, for me to have been able to have that kind of control over her was what you would have to believe, in order for this to have actually been true.
COLLINS: So you had nothing to do with--
WILSON: No.
COLLINS: --the day that it came out, knowing about it, I think she said, six minutes after or something like that?
WILSON: I mean, look, I don't know the timeline. But people were whispering about this and talking about her mental meltdown at the airport for the days leading up to the FOIA release from the airport.
But people have to remember, this happened during the government shutdown. Nancy was cussing out men and women who were working for free at the time. These were people who were taxpayer-funded security and TSA folks, right, as well as local officials.
She cussed them out, while she was not going to Congress. She was actually flying to Las Vegas and then another pleasure trip to Texas for a fundraiser. She wasn't even on the government clock. Expecting them to provide her this free protection while they were working for free. And then to call them effing idiots, effing incompetent, which she literally said that she hoped that she had called them that.
COLLINS: Yes, and she said last night, she has never called anyone an idiot, was what she maintained.
When she says that this report fully exonerates her. Is that how you see it?
WILSON: I mean, look, there are half a dozen people who gave reports, I mean, statements that she used. I mean, they're all saying the same thing. Is everyone lying, and she telling the truth?
And it's not just this one incident. Apparently, there's a handful of incidents, over the last year, where she is cussing out TSA, cussing out security. This is something that goes back, not just this past month, but for the last year.
At the end of the day, she's saying things that are delusional. And this basically reminds me of a spoiled brat, an entitled spoiled brat.
COLLINS: And obviously, the two of you are opponents here in this race.
WILSON: Yes.
COLLINS: I think that's important to keep in mind, and why she was saying it was a political hit job.
One thing she talked about was saying that the video that was released, which we showed, the surveillance video. She's walking through, she's speaking with the TSA agent, and then police officers are escorting her. That it doesn't have audio on it. Do you feel like that audio should be released? What do you -- how do you see that?
WILSON: I'm not aware that those cameras have audio. I think they have TSA security mandates by the federal law that requires people to be -- that be able to see what's going on, but they don't want people to think that they're listening on their conversations, as they're traveling through the airport, so. And I don't know that there would be audio-video available. But what you do is, is you have multiple witness statements corroborating the same thing.
COLLINS: And obviously, in your race, one thing that could be pretty vital for either of you is an endorsement by President Trump. I don't think either of you have gotten one from him yet. I don't think he's weighed in on this primary, if I'm aware. Tell me if I'm wrong.
When you look at that, and you look at how all of this has played out, how important do you think that endorsement would be for you?
WILSON: Look, an endorsement from President Trump would be incredible for any candidate in this country, at least in the Republican primary running. Absolutely, I would want it.
But I'll tell you what I'm really proud of gotten -- to have gotten. A majority of the Republican sheriffs. 75 percent of Republican sheriffs in South Carolina have endorsed me, including all five Republican sheriffs in her congressional district. Every single elected sheriff in Nancy Mace's congressional district has endorsed me. So she--
COLLINS: And why do you think that is?
WILSON: Well, because they see how she treats law enforcement. I mean, she says things on social media, all the time, but this woman doesn't care about cops. She doesn't see them as public servants. She sees them as her servants. And that's how she treats people. She's an entitled brat.
COLLINS: Well, it kind of created a bit of a rift in South Carolina politics, because she apparently had invoked Senator Tim Scott at the airport. That's according to the report. And he put out his own statement when that happened, saying, It's not appropriate--
WILSON: Yes.
COLLINS: --to use vulgar language or to treat police officers or TSA agents like that.
I mean, what kind of dynamic is playing out, in South Carolina Republican politics, right now?
WILSON: Well, and Tim Scott is one of the nicest people you will ever meet. He's a very genteel person. He's a very nice person. And I mean, for her to be complaining about him getting special treatment over her.
[21:55:00]
I'll tell you, right now, I'll walk through Charleston International Airport. The men and women there, the law enforcement folks, the TSA folks, they are professional, they are polite, they are nice. I know that Lindsey Graham has gone through there, Tim Scott has gone through there, other members of our congressional delegation. No one has ever complained about any members of Congress, until this incident with Miss Mace.
COLLINS: South Carolina Attorney General, Alan Wilson, thank you for joining us to respond tonight.
WILSON: Thank you.
COLLINS: Really appreciate that.
And up next. We're following some pretty stunning news coming out of Ann Arbor tonight. We're not really sure what's going on there. Michigan has fired its head football coach. And what the university is saying about why and what's happened since. That's ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: There is some crazy breaking news out of Ann Arbor tonight, as the University of Michigan has now just fired its head football coach, Sherrone Moore, after the school says that he engaged in an inappropriate relationship with a staff member.
[22:00:00] The school did not detail anything what -- to go around with that allegation about a relationship. But school officials said that credible evidence was found as part of an investigation, and that Moore was terminated immediately with cause.
That means the school is not going to have to buy out the remaining three years of his multi-million dollar contract, according to reports right now.
And it also means that Biff Poggi will now be the interim coach at Michigan, as the team is preparing to face off against the University of Texas, in the Citrus Bowl, on New Year's Eve.
We'll continue to keep you updated on that story.
Thanks so much for joining us here tonight on THE SOURCE.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
