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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
DOJ Opens Criminal Investigation Into Fed Chair; Trump Threatens To Block Exxon From Venezuela After CEO's Comments; Axios: Trump Leans Toward Iran Strikes, But Keeps Diplomacy Open. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired January 12, 2026 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ZACH SHEMPER, PRESIDENT, BETH ISRAEL CONGREGATION: The outreach of the community has been overwhelming. All of -- you know, a lot of the churches in the area have offered their worship space as our worship space as we need it.
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"THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: The Trump administration just took a step we've never seen before, and it's even making some Republicans here in Washington uncomfortable.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
And good evening from Washington, where an extraordinary standoff is playing out tonight, unlike anything that we've seen in modern American history.
Jerome Powell, who is the Chairman of the Federal Reserve, publicly disclosed, last night, that he is under investigation by the Department of Justice. A revelation delivered not by prosecutors, but by Powell himself, in a recorded statement that directly ties this threat of criminal charges to the Fed's refusal, as an independent agency, to do what the President wants.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEROME POWELL, CHAIR, FEDERAL RESERVE OF THE UNITED STATES: This new threat is not about my testimony last June or about the renovation of the Federal Reserve buildings.
The threat of criminal charges is a consequence of the Federal Reserve setting interest rates based on our best assessment of what will serve the public, rather than following the preferences of the President. (END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I just want to take a second to note how extraordinary that statement alone truly is. Jerome Powell, or any Fed chair for that matter, rarely speaks. And when the Fed chair does speak, it's almost always in dry, technical, measured statements about the Fed's decision-making and the state of the economy.
That's what makes Powell's recorded statement that much more explosive, not only revealing that the Department of Justice is investigating him, but also saying that the investigation is a sham, and that the real reason for it is because the President is looking for a pretext to fire him for cause. That's because Jay Powell hasn't cut interest rates as fast or as deep as the President wants.
And the President who of course, knows a thing or two about building projects swelling in costs in Washington, he's been laying the groundwork, for months, including this attempt, what happened between the two of them, back in July.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: It looks like it's about $3.1 billion. It went up a little bit. Or a lot. So the 2.7 is now 3.1, and--
POWELL: I'm not aware of that, Mr. President.
TRUMP: Yes, it just came out.
POWELL: Yes, and I have -- I haven't heard that from anybody at the Fed.
You just added -- you just added in a third building, is what that is. That's a third building included in--
TRUMP: Well, I know, but it's -- it's a building that's being built.
POWELL: No, it's been -- it was built five years ago.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, a reminder that President Trump handpicked Jay Powell for this job, just like he's going to pick Powell's replacement when his term is up in May.
And if anyone has questions about how the Federal Reserve is spending its money, which is at the heart of allegedly what is being investigated here, the Fed does publish its balance sheet, online, every week.
And at the White House, the President's staff, including a leading contender to replace Jay Powell, attempted to defend a move that appears to be overtly political.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REPORTER: Did the President ever direct DOJ officials to open an investigation into Powell?
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: No.
REPORTER: And can you reassure the American public that his long- standing criticisms and public comments about Powell had nothing to do with the investigation?
LEAVITT: Look, the President has every right to criticize the Fed chair. He has a First Amendment right, just like all of you do.
KEVIN HASSETT, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL: And seems like the Justice Department has decided that they want to see what's going on over there with this building that's massively more expensive than any building in the history of Washington. And if I were Fed chair, I would want them to do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Kevin Hassett does very much want to be the Fed chair. He's in the running to be one of the next ones in the running, and when it comes to just the few people that the President has been interviewing.
But when it comes to this investigation, where Jay Powell is now a subject of a criminal investigation by the Justice Department, apparently not everyone in the President's inner circle agrees with him, that this isn't (ph) a wise idea. Because a source tells CNN tonight that the Treasury Secretary, Scott Bessent, is actually not happy about this move, and he's expressed concern it will negatively impact the markets. That's according to my colleague, Kristen Holmes.
So far, those markets have held steady. But one area that has actually proved to be less so is a small but significant number of House and Senate Republicans, here in D.C., who are risking the President's wrath by saying publicly that they disagree with this.
[21:05:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. KEVIN CRAMER (R-ND): I don't think Jay Powell is a criminal. If we were to do an indictment on everybody that misled Congress in a hearing, we'd have to build a couple new federal penitentiaries.
SEN. STEVE DAINES (R-MT): I support the independence of the Fed, and I hope that this investigation wraps up very, very quickly.
SEN. JOHN KENNEDY (R-LA): I know Chairman Powell very well. I will be stunned, I will be shocked, if he has done anything wrong.
SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): Another example of amateur hour, as far as I'm concerned.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Those are all Republicans that you just heard from.
My lead source tonight is a Democrat. The Democratic senator of Connecticut, Chris Murphy.
And thank you, sir, for being here.
When you look at this, do you believe that Jerome Powell has done anything wrong?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): Of course not. Of course not.
This is Donald Trump operationalizing the Department of Justice in order to conduct a witch-hunt against people he doesn't like. And he's been doing it over and over and over again, against James Comey, against Letitia James. He's using the military tribunals to come after Senator Kelly. Now he's coming after Jay Powell. Listen, this is how he operates. He operates by threatening to throw people in jail who oppose him politically, or who don't agree with his policies.
And listen, I mean, I guess I appreciate a handful of Republicans offering mild criticism. But, come on, there's nothing heroic in any of that. They had an opportunity when Trump put up for nomination for key posts at the Department of Justice, yes-men, individuals who were not going to preserve the independence of the judiciary. They had the opportunity to oppose them, and they didn't.
They confirmed people like Pam Bondi, people like Jeanine Pirro, knowing that his intent was to sic the Department of Justice on his political opponents, and you are watching the disintegration of our democracy in front of our eyes. And if Republicans continue to offer milquetoast criticism and do nothing practical about it, they may rue that day. Our democracy may not survive until the next presidential election.
COLLINS: You mentioned Jeanine Pirro. She actually just posted tonight on this matter, because she's the one who approved these subpoenas that went out to Jay Powell that he got on Friday. He waited a couple days to go public with it.
And she said that they -- that her office contacted the Federal Reserve on multiple occasions to talk about cost overruns and the Chairman's congressional testimony. Jeanine Pirro says they were ignored, and that's what necessitated the use of legal process. She says it's not a threat, and the word indictment has only come out of Powell's mouth, no one else's. None of this would have happened if they just responded to our outreach.
What do you make of that statement?
MURPHY: Well, I don't have any visibility into the back and forth between Jeanine Pirro and the Federal Reserve.
But you played the clip yourself. I mean, Donald Trump and the people behind him have no idea what's happening with the construction project. He made a claim on camera that it had been overly expensive, not knowing that he was conflating two buildings together. I mean, listen, everybody knows what's going on here. Over and over again, Donald Trump is creating charges against people he doesn't like and essentially advertising it. I mean, he hasn't been shy about suggesting that he's going to use every ability he has, at the White House, to try to make life miserable for people who are political opponents of him. From Adam Schiff down to James Comey, he's pretty clear about what he's doing. So, I don't need to -- I don't think we need to spend, like, a minute pretending that this is on the level.
COLLINS: Well, what's remarkable about this, though, is Jay Powell normally just doesn't respond. I mean, the President has attacked him more times than you can count, really. And he hasn't really said much. So, to hear him come out in that statement and not just say, Hey, we got these subpoenas, but to say, Hey, we got these, and we believe it's just a sham investigation because I'm not cutting interest rates.
What do you make of the fact that it's gotten to that point?
MURPHY: Well, I don't think anything Jay Powell is doing is extraordinary. He is reacting to an extraordinary corruption of the power of the presidency. I mean, targets of Donald Trump's political witch-hunts would be fools to just sit back and take it. You have to defend yourself.
And of course, this country has become an economic superpower because we haven't managed the economy out of the White House. We have allowed for there to be an independence of monetary policy coming out of the Fed. Putting Donald Trump in charge of what the daily interest rate would be? That would be a disaster for an economy that is already in really bad shape.
Donald Trump, single-handedly, has made this economy stagnant, miserable. We just found out that in 2025, we had the lowest rate of job growth in this country in any non-recession year, in 20 years. Families are hurting. Millions are about to lose their health care insurance. Prices are going up.
[21:10:00]
Even without taking the independence of the Federal Reserve away, Donald Trump has already put this economy in really bad shape. Imagine what would happen if he actually got control of the Federal Reserve. So, this is bad for our democracy.
COLLINS: But can I ask you on that because he is--
MURPHY: But this back and forth is bad for our economy, too.
COLLINS: He's picking Jay Powell's replacement, I mean, any day now. Scott Bessent said he'll probably announce it when he gets back from Davos, when we go there with him next week. I mean, do you think that person is going to have trouble getting confirmed because of they're going to have to answer questions about things like this, when they're up for Senate confirmation?
MURPHY: Well, there have been a couple senators who have actually said that they're going to take meaningful action. You played clips of senators who often just give that kind of mild halfway criticism. But Senator Tillis and Senator Murkowski have said that they won't vote for a Jay Powell replacement unless this investigation gets dropped. Now that's only two Republican senators. You'd need more than two.
But yes, I guess I'm identifying for my Republican colleagues the real danger to our economy, if Powell gets replaced by somebody who is just a toady for the White House.
If you put Donald Trump in charge of the interest rate policy in this country, the economy is going to get worse. You should care about that because it impacts families. But from a political perspective, if you're a Republican, I wouldn't recommend that they take intentional steps to make the economy even worse, ahead of a midterm election that's going to be pretty bad for them anyway.
COLLINS: Senator Chris Murphy, thank you for your time tonight.
MURPHY: Thank you.
COLLINS: I'm also joined here by my legal source. The former Deputy Assistant Attorney General, Tom Dupree.
And Tom, I wanted you here, because what is the bar for opening an investigation at the Justice Department?
TOM DUPREE, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: The bar is actually pretty low. Basically, the Justice Department just needs a reasonable factual basis to think that a federal crime has been committed or is about to be committed.
But look, just because the Justice Department may have the legal authority to open a criminal investigation doesn't mean it makes sense to do so. One of the most fundamental attributes of our constitutional structure is that prosecutors exercise discretion. They decide what they want to investigate. They decide what they want to prosecute. And that often requires a judgment. Judgment, whether or not this is a serious crime, you have evidence supporting it that warrants prosecution.
And certainly, in our nation's history, there had been cases of cost overruns. There have been cases of budget renovation -- or building renovations that run over budget, and you don't always prosecute.
COLLINS: Well, what do you make of Jeanine Pirro's statement tonight, saying, If they had just responded to our inquiries, then we wouldn't -- we wouldn't have had to get to this point of using the legal process. And she said that they expect his full cooperation here.
I mean, does he have to comply with these subpoenas?
DUPREE: Well, he does have to comply with the subpoenas. But as far as what she said about the fact that, Look, we tried to negotiate this, it didn't work. That's why he had to resort to legal process. That, in fact, is the mirrored image of the arguments that the prosecutors made, when they took the executed warrant in Mar-a-Lago. COLLINS: The classified documents case.
DUPREE: Is that they said, We tried to work it out with Trump--
COLLINS: I was just thinking that.
DUPREE: --he didn't do that.
And look, Jerome Powell's response to Trump is the same response that Trump gave to the prosecutors, where he questioned the legitimacy of the investigation. He said, There's no basis for here, this is all political. He did so in maybe less bombastic, caustic terms than the President did, but the substance is the same.
COLLINS: But the difference is that Trump was refusing to hand over classified documents. Jay Powell is refusing to cut interest rates. It's illegal (ph).
DUPREE: Yes, look, there's no -- look, Jay Powell has it right, when he made the statement today, or he said that, Look, what's going on here is not a dispute about the cost of building renovations. This is a dispute about my refusal to cut interest rates. He's right on that.
And the President has made clear he doesn't like Powell, he doesn't like Powell's decision. And what we are seeing now, I think, frankly, is the new normal. The President is using the Justice Department to achieve political policy ends, and to exert leverage over individuals who are in a position to make these policy decisions.
COLLINS: Well, and when it comes to -- if Congress really had questions about these renovations, and how the Fed was spending its money on these renovations. I mean, one, there's a whole Frequently Asked Questions section on their website. There's a video showing exactly what they're doing with the renovations.
Couldn't Congress just subpoena them, and bring him in to testify, and talk to him about it themselves?
DUPREE: Yes, look, if Congress was upset about this, I think they would have been pounding the table on this, and saying, We think you lied to us.
I did like the clip that you played of Senators saying, Look, everyone lies to us. It's normal. We're not going to prosecute. If we did, we have to put everyone in jail.
So, I think the fact that there was congressional silence is also a bit telling that the motive here may not truly be law enforcement, but there may be a policy component to it.
COLLINS: Kevin Cramer said, if they arrested everyone who evaded answers from Congress, they'd have to build more penitentiaries.
DUPREE: For sure.
COLLINS: Tom Dupree, thank you for joining us as always. DUPREE: Thanks.
COLLINS: Up next here. They are surging in as many as thousand more immigration officers to Minneapolis, as tensions have only increased after that deadly ICE shooting last week.
Plus, my political sources are here to give their take on the President rebranding himself as the Acting President of Venezuela. Yes, he did repost this.
And also, later, we have new reporting on what the President and the White House are thinking when it comes to the current military strikes they are considering on Iran, in response to what we're seeing on the ground there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEAVITT: The President has shown he's unafraid to use military options, if and when he deems necessary. And nobody knows that better than Iran.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, our sources say that around a 1,000 more Customs and Border Protection agents are deploying to Minneapolis, on top of the 2,000 federal agents who are already there on the ground.
That brings the number close to 3,000, as the State of Minnesota, and the Twin Cities, Minneapolis and Saint Paul, are now suing the Trump administration after an ICE agent shot and killed Renee Good, last Wednesday. This 80-page lawsuit that was filed today in federal court, accuses the administration of carrying out what they describe as a federal invasion.
And at a news conference, announcing this lawsuit, the local officials there argued, they've had enough.
[21:20:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR JACOB FREY, (D) MINNEAPOLIS, MINNESOTA: What we are seeing right now is not normal immigration enforcement. We are not asking ICE not to do ICE things. We are asking this federal government to stop the unconstitutional conduct that is invading our streets each and every day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My political sources are here with me tonight, including:
Former Obama administration official, Van Jones. And the former Trump campaign adviser, David Urban.
And Van, I want to start with you, because on this top of this news that they're deploying a 1,000 more agents, this lawsuit is now happening that they're describing as a federal invasion on the ground. What do you make of what we're seeing play out in Minneapolis tonight?
VAN JONES, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER OBAMA ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: Well, look, I think if you're conservative, you have probably knee-jerk things to say, That's just a bunch of crazy liberals doing crazy liberal stuff.
But if you actually read what they are describing, is going on? Nobody voted for this in either party. It's pretty shocking stuff.
ICE officers are just supposed to target people who they got a reasonable suspicion of not being in the country properly, and then figure out what's going on. They are not supposed to be running up in schools. They're not supposed to be invading houses of worship, throwing people to the ground, attacking, ramming the cars of U.S. citizens. I mean, if you look at the stuff that they're doing? This is really above and beyond what anybody would expect from any law enforcement agency.
And then the other thing is, the government can't just do any dadgum thing. There's something called things -- if they're arbitrary and capricious, the courts can step in. If this -- if you got -- if you got to read this stuff first, if this is not arbitrary and capricious government behavior, then the term doesn't make any sense, and doesn't mean anything at all.
So, I think that if what's in this lawsuit is remotely true, 10 percent true? People in both political parties would say, Yes, you know what? The courts should step in. This is not right.
COLLINS: Well, and on this ask for the courts to step in, David.
There was something the Mayor said today, Jacob Frey, he's the Mayor of Minneapolis, that stood out to me.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FREY: If the goal was immigration enforcement, if the goal were simply to look for people that are undocumented, Minneapolis and Saint Paul would not be the place where you would go. There are countless more people that are undocumented in Florida, and Texas, and Utah. Why are they in these much smaller cities in the middle of the Midwest? The answer is very clear. It is politics.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: So David, we looked up the data. According to the most recent numbers we have from the Pew Research Center. Minnesota's undocumented immigrant population makes up 2.2 percent of their total population. In Utah, it is 4.1 percent. In Texas, it's 6.6. And in Florida, it's 6.9. Does he have a point in terms of being targeted?
DAVID URBAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN ADVISER: No. Mayor Frey can make this all go away, just if he stopped it being a sanctuary city.
This is where the Trump administration is focusing. Doesn't matter how many illegal immigrants you have per capita. If you are not cooperating with ICE, they're going to send more ICE there to help look for these folks. Places where local law enforcement are cooperating, turning people over, and they're not sanctuary cities aren't seeing these kind of incursions by ICE, because they're cooperating.
When he says, we invite ICE in, we want to -- we want to help them? No, they don't. By fact of the matter of them being a sanctuary city and a sanctuary state, they are not cooperating with ICE.
So, you want to fix it, Mayor Frey? You want to fix it easily? Just cooperate with ICE. Cooperate with the federal government. Things will get much better. The rioting will stop. Things will calm down. It's in your hands to change.
So, when he's crying these crocodile tears, I think, it's a lot of theater.
COLLINS: Van, wat do you make of that? Is that -- do you agree with that?
JONES: No, I'd see it differently in that, we've had different levels of cooperation. What we've never had, just completely blatant, unconstitutional brutality on a daily basis, against nannies, against roofers, against restaurant workers, against church members. There's something between being frustrated that some of these mayors aren't cooperating, and just taking it out on human beings with this level of brutality, and this level of just wanton disregard.
And I just think we're -- look, I try to call it fair. I think, when liberals and progressives do dumb stuff, I call it out. But this is -- I mean, what they are describing, I just invite (ph) everybody. Look at what they're describing. This is not -- this does not seem to be rationally related to the lawful purpose of finding immigrants who are not supposed to be here and getting them out of the country. This has gone way beyond that.
[21:25:00]
And yes, you are getting some blowback from citizens, some of whom are doing smart stuff, some of whom are doing dumb stuff. But the government has a standard, I think that's not being met here. And it's very, very shocking to see this, to see this description. I hadn't, frankly, paid enough attention. This stuff that they're describing is going on in America, it should not be going on. And if you have an--
COLLINS: Well and-- JONES: And if you have a mayor that's not doing the right thing, that still should not be taken out on people the way it's being taken out now.
COLLINS: But David, can I ask you?
URBAN: Yes.
COLLINS: Because something that The New York Times reported tonight really stood out to me, in terms of this investigation and the aftermath of the killing of Renee, last week. They say, Federal investigators assigned to this fatal shooting of the 37-year-old Minneapolis woman are looking into her possible connections to activist groups protesting the administration's aggressive immigration enforcement, in addition to the actions of the agent who killed her.
If local officials are being frozen out, I mean, do you think that is the investigation that people are looking for?
URBAN: No, listen, I think -- I think what needs to take place -- far be it for me. Look, I'm not an investigator. I'm not part of DOJ. I think people want to TikTok (ph), see what happened here, want to look at, you know what -- you know, if there was body camera footage, this officer had to make a split-second decision. It was a tragic turn of events, right, set in place. How do we -- how do we prevent that from happening again, I think, is what we need to focus on in these kind of situations.
And to Van's point, like I take that -- I understand what he's saying. I think that if this administration, right, they were elected to crack down the border, to get rid of the bad hombres, kick out drug dealers, cartel members, rapists, murderers, those kind of folks. Nobody wants to see nannies getting zip-tied, or as Van says, sheetrock workers getting rounded up and--
COLLINS: It's the administration.
URBAN: Yes, no, no, I understand that. And I think that the administration is wise to really focus on that, because this is getting shown in TVs across America. Polling -- poll after poll -- this is not a David Urban or Van Jones. This is the American public is seeing this. And the polling numbers stink on this for the President.
People wanted him to close the border. It was the strongest thing that he was running on, right, was the border. This has kind of gone away from that. I think his numbers have gotten significantly weaker. I think if -- he should focus on some sort of comprehensive immigration reform.
Van worked for the Obama administration. The Obama administration deported about 5.1 million, 5.2 million people. They were very successful, because they did that at the border and really close to the border. They never went into the hinterland, into American neighborhoods, and grabbed people. That's why there was less demonstrations about it. It's much more -- it hits harder when it's your neighbor than someone who just crossed. COLLINS: Yes.
Van Jones. David Urban. You're both going to stick around. And we have a lot more to talk about.
And up next. For everyone who's watching this, after that meeting that happened at the White House on Friday, I was in the room for this. It was remarkable. And now the President is threatening to sideline Exxon when it comes to what they are doing in Venezuela, because the CEO said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DARREN WOODS, CEO, EXXONMOBIL: If we look at the legal and commercial constructs -- frameworks -- in place today in Venezuela, today it's uninvestable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: The President is now branding himself as the Acting President of Venezuela.
In a Truth Social post that was shared last night, the President put out this image, a manipulated image, of course, I should note, from Wikipedia, deeming him Venezuela's leader. Of course, that came just days after he told The New York Times that he actually believes the United States could be running Venezuela for years.
The President has already been working to reshape their oil industry after the U.S. captured the nation's leader, Nicolas Maduro, in that secret raid.
But after meeting with executives of the world's biggest oil companies at the White House, last Friday, the President is now threatening to keep ExxonMobil out of Venezuela, after the CEO said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WOODS: If we look at the legal and commercial constructs -- frameworks -- in place today in Venezuela, today it's uninvestable.
TRUMP: No, I didn't like Exxon's response. You know, we have so many that want it. I'd probably be inclined to keep Exxon out. I didn't like their response. They're playing too cute.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My political sources are back here with me.
David Urban, what did you make of that answer from the President, on Air Force One, last night? URBAN: Well, I think the Exxon CEO is just speaking the truth. The legal construct, the way, if you're putting billions of dollars into an economy and in a legal system that has no recourse? It's like investing money in China, you may never get it back out again, right? And so, I think the CEO is just speaking the truth.
The laws will change. They'll have a new regime come in. I'm sure things will change. The legal construct will change. Become much more friendly for foreign investment, and things will be able to be put there.
But as it stands today, I'm not so sure that other people are going to be running after him to invest money -- won't be running after him. I think that you'll see Exxon, you'll see all the big folks kind of sitting it out, waiting to see how the laws change there. It's only a responsible thing to do. I mean, the guy has shareholders, right?
COLLINS: Yes.
Van, what did you make of that? Because that was obviously the big point of discussion during that meeting, on Friday, which was, are they willing to go in, and how quickly, because of the risks that they have seen and witnessed previously. What did you make of that, and the President sharing that picture of himself saying he's the Acting President.
JONES: I'll get to the goofy picture in a minute.
[21:35:00]
But I think that if Trump thinks he's the Acting President of Venezuela, then the CEO's comments were -- should be well-received. He's basically saying, The laws in your country, Venezuela, are screwed up, so you should fix them. I don't understand why Trump's mad about that.
URBAN: I don't think he can fix that on Wiki, Van.
JONES: Yes. Yes. Look, so I don't -- look, I think that Darren Woods, to the earlier point, he's the CEO, and he's -- I don't think he was criticizing Donald Trump. I'm going to. But I don't think he was. I think he said -- I think he was just saying, The laws are screwed up there, and so you got to -- you got to fix that. I think maybe the President is reacting badly because of how it became a point of discussion afterwards. But I don't think it was out of -- out of pocket.
I do think that Trump is out of pocket, because it's the -- the Wikipedia games, all the stuff he's doing. Who's running the country? America. You talk about running Venezuela. Who's -- you have time for all this goofy online stuff that if you -- if you had a student in your 10th grade class doing this stuff every day, you'd be worried about him. I don't think he should be doing that stuff.
Also, a lot of Venezuelans were -- wanted to put this dude on Mount Olympus, last week, because they thought that they were getting some freedom for the people of Venezuela, I mean, and people were crying real tears. And there was big debate online about this, when people were saying, Yes, it's U.S. imperialism, oil.--
COLLINS: Yes.
JONES: --a lot of Venezuelans here in America said, Shut up, guys. Trump is doing something good. He's going to give us our freedom.
And now, it looks like they're not going to get their freedom. It seems like they just kind of swapped out Tweedledumb for Tweedledumber over there, so they can just get the oil and abandon the people. And so, I don't think that's good, and I hope that that's not how it ends up.
But in the meantime, like doing silly stuff on Wikipedia. If you're going to free the people of Venezuela? Get on with it. And by the way, help the people of Iran too. That's a lot more presidential, I think, than being mad at a CEO for--
COLLINS: Yes. And--
JONES: --looking out for his shareholders.
URBAN: Yes.
COLLINS: We have a big convo on Iran, coming up.
But on Venezuela, someone who wants to be the acting leader is the opposition leader, Maria Machado there. She's actually coming to Washington, going to be at the White House on Thursday of this week to meet with the President.
And David, I asked the President about giving -- if she gives him her Nobel Peace Prize, which we all know Trump thinks he should have won. He says it pretty clearly. Whether or not if she gives that to him, it would change his view of her running Venezuela.
This is what he told me on Friday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: On Venezuela, and your meeting with Machado next week. If she gives you her Nobel Peace Prize, will that change your view about her running that country?
TRUMP: Well, I have to speak to her. I mean, I'm going to have to speak to her. She might be involved in some aspect of it.
Look, whether people like Trump or don't like Trump, I settled eight wars, big ones. Some going on for 36 years, 32 years, 31 years, 28 years, 25 years. Some just getting ready to start, like India and Pakistan.
I can't think of anybody in history that should get the Nobel Prize more than me, and I don't want to be bragging, but nobody else settled wars. (END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That sounds like a yes to me.
URBAN: Yes, I don't -- who knows what's going to happen in that meeting? I think, to Van's point, I think, people in Venezuela, I think, are happy, what's the current situation. It's only going to get better. It's only going to improve.
COLLINS: Well, I don't know, Maduro's number two is running it right now.
URBAN: Yes, well it's--
COLLINS: It hasn't really changed that much.
URBAN: It's going to improve. It's going to change dramatically. There'll be elections. Things are going to take time.
Just like think about what happened in Iraq after you got Saddam. We toppled Saddam, got rid of the Ba'ath Party, the country collapsed. We learned a lesson there, leave the infrastructure and change slowly. So we did learn some things. Think that's what you're saying here. Lessons learned.
I think these people will be cycled out. There'll be elections. And when there's more stable laws in there, there'll be plenty of oil companies running is this -- they got the largest reserve of oils in the whole planet. Plenty of people there. Plenty of prosperity coming from -- excuse me, for Venezuela in the future.
COLLINS: David Urban, we will see if that bears out.
Van Jones as well.
Great to have you both here. Thanks for joining us.
And up next. As I noted, there are real questions about what's going to happen with Iran. We are told, the President is actually considering military intervention over those deadly, and I do mean deadly, anti-government protests in Iran. We have new reporting from an inside source, right after this.
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We do have some breaking news tonight. As Barak Ravid at Axios is reporting that President Trump is leaning towards striking Iran to punish the regime for killing protesters.
A White House official tells Axios that a final decision has not been made, as the President has also been exploring proposals for negotiations with Iran. Something the President himself alluded to as he was speaking to reporters on Air Force One, last night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We're looking at it very seriously, the military's looking at it, and we're looking at some very strong options.
I think they're tired of being beat up by the United States.
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: Iran wants to negotiate this.
REPORTER: Negotiate what?
TRUMP: We may meet with them. I mean, a meeting is being set up. But we may have to act because of what's happening before the meeting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: In the last 16 days, more than 10,000 people have been arrested, and more than 500 protesters in Iran have been killed.
With an internet blackout in the country, some disturbing videos have now come to light. This video, obtained by CNN, shows a disturbing scene at a makeshift morgue outside of a medical center. You can see, there are dozens of bodies in black bags, laid out across the ground, as Iranians can be heard in the background, screaming in anguish, as they are just trying to identify their loved ones.
I want to bring in my next sources tonight.
Congresswoman Yassamin Ansari, who is the first Iranian American Democrat to serve in Congress.
And Beth Sanner, who is the former Deputy Director of National Intelligence.
And Beth, I want to get to you on what the President's options are on here.
But first, just, Congresswoman, seeing those images, to me, was incredibly jarring, just to see all of these bags. I mean, we see the numbers that we're getting. They're the best numbers we can get. But, I mean, it doesn't seem like we have any idea, actually, how bad it is inside Iran right now.
[21:45:00]
REP. YASSAMIN ANSARI (D-AZ): You're absolutely right. Even watching these videos is really distressing for me. My parents fled. This regime. Came to the U.S. in the 70s. We have friends and family still in Iran.
These protests are being called a revolution, because they really are the largest and most sustained protests there have been in years since the Woman, Life, Freedom movement in 2022.
And what the regime is doing is cutting off people from internet access. They're shutting down phone lines. And while there is a complete blackout of the internet, they are using that opportunity to commit mass atrocities against people. The estimates say several hundred people have died, but most of the dissidents and folks on the ground say that number could be in the thousands.
Reports, firsthand testimony from doctors say that the hospitals are just completely overwhelmed, not just in Tehran, but in some of the other smaller cities around the country. So, it's really dire. And that's why one of the most urgent calls that I have for the administration and for Congress is to support Iranian people in accessing the internet.
In the NDAA, in 2025, there was, actually, language around supporting direct-to-cell internet access for Iranian people. We just need to fund that. That is already in there. But that's something that Donald Trump could do immediately, and it would be a huge help to the Iranian people, so that they can connect, get videos out about what's going on, and make sure that their stories are being amplified.
COLLINS: OK. So, you'd like to see him step in, in that way, to be able to help them, at least be able to tell the world what's happening inside of there.
Beth, when it comes to the President's options.
BETH SANNER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST, FORMER DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: Yes.
COLLINS: He has made very clear that he thinks military -- a military strike is on the table here. I don't think anyone thinks that that's not possible, just given, obviously, he struck Iran over the summer.
SANNER: Yes.
COLLINS: When you look at his options, though, and he goes after -- if he goes after their security services, which is what we're hearing from sources, what would that look like? How would that actually impact the regime here?
SANNER: So, I mean, I think that this is a really difficult decision to make, because it is hard to conduct military strikes in a way that is going to deal with this very dispersed IRGC and Basij forces throughout the country. Right? We're hearing a 130 cities, every province. So, how is that going to work?
So, he's going to have to figure out if he wants to do a military strike, does he strike a headquarters of IRGC, a Basij headquarters? Some of these things were already struck by the Israelis in the 12-day war. But he risks, kind of an Obama moment, right? He risks, if--
COLLINS: What do you mean by that?
SANNER: I mean the red line in Syria, where Obama said, Do not do this otherwise. And the Syrian regime conducted these chemical weapons attacks and atrocities, and we did nothing.
And so now, because President Trump has said, I'm coming in guns-a- blazing, if you kill protesters. Well, we know.
COLLINS: They're killing protesters.
SANNER: They're killing protesters.
And I think this whole idea of negotiations, I hope it's not serious. I hope he's actually just playing for time, in terms of moving our forces in, and figuring out covert and potentially military options.
COLLINS: Why do you hope it's not serious?
SANNER: Because if he negotiates with this regime, he is legitimizing a regime that not only has done all of these atrocities over years. Thousands and thousands of Iranians have died. Executions, last year, they reached a new record for them. But also, hundreds of Americans have died at the hands of Iranians, and President Trump had an assassination attempt by the Iranians. So, this is a horrible regime. So, you don't want to legitimize it. And if you do, the Iranian people are the ones that will pay.
And the last thing I'll say is, doesn't this feel different than Venezuela, where we literally have legitimized this regime that's completely illegitimate?
COLLINS: Well, and Congresswoman on if they -- if strikes are an option, and he does take that. You said you thought the strikes in the Iranian nuclear facilities last summer, you thought they were illegal. Would you support military action in furtherance of the protesters on the ground in Iran right now?
ANSARI: I think my issue with the way that the Trump administration has handled foreign policy is that it's been completely chaotic.
And to your point of what I said, in many cases, they've taken illegal actions without coming to Congress. I think that if there are credible plans, and the Trump administration wants to look at any sort of military action in Iran, then he does need to present that to Congress, show the intelligence, and show why it's in the benefit of the American public. At the end of the day, I don't think Americans want another endless war. Americans don't want boots on the ground.
SANNER: Yes.
[21:50:00]
ANSARI: However, I do think there's actions that the administration can take to support Iranian people, whether it's covert operations--
COLLINS: Yes.
ANSARI: --cyberattacks, other opportunities.
And I am also concerned that first, Donald Trump emboldened protesters to go out onto the streets, and said, We will protect you. And now, talking of negotiating with this regime that's literally murdering them. You're giving very mixed signals to Iranian people, about whether or not the United States has their back or not.
COLLINS: Congresswoman, great to have you, especially just given your heritage and your parents. So, thank you for joining tonight.
ANSARI: Thank you.
COLLINS: Beth Sanner as well, always great to have your expertise.
Up next here for us on THE SOURCE. We're going to remember the life and the legacy of Bob Weir, a founding member of the Grateful Dead, who died this weekend.
My source is a huge Deadhead. Andy Cohen is here, right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:55:00]
COLLINS: Tonight, the world is remembering the music legend that is Bob Weir.
Weir died Saturday at the age of 78 after a battle with cancer and underlying lung issues, leaving behind an incredible legacy, as a founding member of the Grateful Dead. He was not only a guitarist and a vocalist, but also a storyteller. His imprint is on many of the band's most memorable songs, including "Sugar Magnolia," "Truckin'," and "Cassidy." Weir was actually the youngest member of the Dead when they formed in the early 1960s, which earned him the nickname, the kid.
I was lucky enough to meet him and cross paths when the band was celebrated at the Kennedy Center Honors, last year, a moment that I cherish in hindsight.
And last summer, Weir took the stage for what would be the final time at the Golden Gate Park, in San Francisco, to celebrate the band's 60th anniversary.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(VIDEO - BOB WEIR PERFORMS AT GOLDEN GATE PARK - SAN FRANCISCO - AUGUST 3, 2025)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And my source tonight on Weir's life and legacy is Deadhead, Andy Cohen, who joins me on the phone.
And Andy, you posted on Instagram. You said, Bob Weir wasn't The Other One, he was That Guy.
What impact did he have on someone like you?
ANDY COHEN, HOST, WATCH WHAT HAPPENS LIVE (On Telephone): Oh man. Thanks for having me. Thanks for talking about this tonight. Hug a Deadhead, if you see one in the halls at CNN tonight.
Wow. What impact did he have? He just -- he was part of what I view as the Great American Songbook, and that's what -- you know, the Grateful Dead are the great American band.
And those songs you mentioned, he co-wrote. You know, there's also "Playing in the Band," "The Music Never Stopped," and "Looks Like Rain," and "Estimated Prophet" and just a catalog of music and experiences that brought millions of Deadheads around the world together and together and together.
And we kept coming back, because no two shows were ever alike, and no songs ever sounded the same. And that was every song being a singular experience really spoke to the band, but also to Bob, because he was just a musically adventurous guy, and just adventurous of spirit, until the end. The dude, he was a California cowboy.
COLLINS: What was it like to see him perform on stage?
COHEN (On Telephone): It was great. I mean, my first show was in 1986.
COLLINS: Wow.
COHEN (On Telephone): I drove in a 1972 Buick Skylark Convertible. I somehow convinced my parents, to let me drive from St. Louis to Alpine Valley, Wisconsin, and we slept in the parking lot, in the -- in this big boat of a car. And my, you know, I -- we had -- we were all the way at the top of General Admission in the back.
But man, he was, it was like beams of sunlight were coming out of his mouth. He was commanding, and he was soulful, and he was freestyle, and he was great-looking. And he wore these little short shorts in the 80s that everybody talked about, Bobby Shorts. And he was electric, and he was -- yes.
COLLINS: Someone said something today about -- you know, it's just obviously, it's been a very tough last week to be online, regardless of where you are, politically.
COHEN (On Telephone): Yes.
COLLINS: And someone was saying something over the weekend--
COHEN (On Telephone): Last -- tough last year, man.
COLLINS: Yes. Yes. And someone was just saying what it was like, since he died on Saturday, to look at social media, and it wasn't -- they said, it wasn't doomscrolling. It was Bob-scrolling, and there were just all these delightful moments in quotes and tributes to him--
COHEN (On Telephone): Yes.
COLLINS: --that really put a smile on your face.
COHEN (On Telephone): Absolutely. I posted a clip of him on Watch What Happens Live, my hit talk show on Bravo, Kaitlan, that you've been a guest on. And I was talking to him about Jerry's passing, and about how he viewed death. And he had such beautiful, inspiring things to say about how when people he knew died, he was happy for them. He viewed it as a liberation of sorts. And he believed in a promised land beyond death. And yesterday morning, when I re-watched that clip, it made me feel so much more at peace about this whole thing, you know?
And of course, Bob Weir and all the Grateful Dead will live forever through this incredible catalog.
COLLINS: Yes, a liberation. That's beautiful.
[22:00:00]
Andy Cohen, thank you for joining me tonight, I'm so grateful you did.
COHEN (On Telephone): Thanks, Kaitlan. Keep up the good work.
COLLINS: Thank you.
And I do want to note. Bob Weir survived by his wife, Natascha, and his daughters, Monet and Chloe. Our hearts are with them tonight and of course in this moment.
Thank you so much for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
