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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Guthrie Family Releases New Video Pleading For Mother's Return; Administration Struggles To Explain Gabbard Being In Georgia; U.K. Prime Minister Apologizes To Epstein Survivors For Appointing Mandelson. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired February 05, 2026 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: --I'm crying because what you said is so unique, and I think true. And yes, we have no idea what this means. You know? I mean, yes, we have no idea what death means.
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COOPER: You can listen to the full conversation wherever you get your podcasts, or watch the entire episode at CNN.com/AllThereIs.
The news continues. I'll see you, tomorrow. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: And there's breaking news out of Arizona tonight, where it is now two hours past a deadline that was set in still-unverified ransom notes that are linked to the disappearance of 84-year-old Nancy Guthrie.
Just moments after that, 05:00 p.m. local deadline passed, the Guthrie family made this urgent plea directly to whoever it is that took their mom.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAMRON GUTHRIE, SON OF NANCY GUTHRIE: Whoever is out there holding our mother, we want to hear from you. We haven't heard anything directly. We need you to reach out, and we need a way to communicate with you so we can move forward. But first, we have to know that you have our mom. We want to talk to you, and we are waiting for contact.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That's Camron Guthrie. He's Nancy Guthrie's son, and TODAY show anchor, Savannah Guthrie's brother. And he says their family still has not heard directly from the person who took their mom from her Tucson home on Saturday night. Their family is clearly heartbroken and desperate for any kind of communication, as it has now been five days since she went missing. At a press conference today, officials revealed that the deadlines set in those unverified ransom notes. Notes that demanded millions of dollars in exchange in Bitcoin for her safe return.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HEITH JANKE, FBI PHOENIX SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE: The ransom note that was distributed to the media did make a demand for 05:00 p.m. today. And if a transfer wasn't made, then I think a second demand was for next Monday. We're not going to go beyond that.
REPORTER: Did it indicate what would happen if they didn't meet that ransom?
JANKE: We're not going to go into those specifics.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: After tonight's deadline passed, we did learn new details about what those alleged ransom notes included from somebody who actually got one.
TMZ's Harvey Levin says that Guthrie's family is left begging for any kind of contact, because the note they got, from this potential abductor -- and still, I want to be clear, this has not been verified, and we haven't heard from officials who say that they know this is real. But in this letter that did go out to these media outlets, the possible abductor made very clear, there's not going to be any way to get in touch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARVEY LEVIN, TMZ FOUNDER; RECEIVED RANSOM NOTE: So, they are pleading for this person to come forward, if it indeed is the person behind this letter.
The letter says, You will have no way of contacting me. This is the only contact.
So, that's why they're pleading for proof of life, that's why they are begging, because they have no idea how to get in touch with this person.
They went to great lengths in sending this email to us, in making sure that it stays anonymous.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Tonight, the FBI says there is still no proof of life, no confirmation that Guthrie is being held, or any kind of follow-up communication connected to the demands in those unverified letters.
But investigators have shared new details from the night of Nancy Guthrie's disappearance.
By now, you know Nancy Guthrie was last seen Saturday evening, at around 09:48 p.m., when her family dropped her off at home after dinner. Her garage door closed at approximately 09:50 p.m.
But we now know that at 01:47 a.m., Nancy Guthrie's doorbell camera disconnected. At 02:12 a.m., her camera system's software detect a person or something on camera, but there is no video available because the system's storage being reset after a couple of hours. A doorbell camera is also now missing from Nancy Guthrie's home. Then, at 02:28 a.m., her pacemaker sent its last signal to her iPhone, which was also later found inside her home.
After her family checked on her, after she uncharacteristically went missing, and didn't go to church the next day, that's when she was officially reported missing.
Now, investigators have also revealed that those DNA results determined that the blood that we did see in those pictures, that was found on the front porch of Nancy Guthrie's home, did belong to Nancy Guthrie herself.
My lead source tonight is CNN's Senior National Correspondent, Ed Lavandera. He's been on the ground covering this for us every night in Tucson.
And Ed, obviously, there are so many questions about these ransom notes, if they're real, what's going on with this? What is the latest you're hearing from officials there?
ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, clearly, just a few hours ago, Camron Guthrie putting out that latest video from the family, trying to establish some sort of communication.
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But as you point out, we still do not know if this is truly an authentic message or not. But clearly, the Guthrie family taking it very seriously, as investigators have said they're doing that as well. But as far as we know, still no indication that any kind of communication or any kind of follow-up has taken place.
But what we learned from investigators, in the timeline that you lay out there is also, you know, the details of what must be incredibly frustrating from -- for investigators is that they've been pleading with the public for almost for -- what's it, five days now, looking for any kind of tip that might be able to break this case wide open.
The Sheriff told me today, after we sat down with him, that they've had more than a 100 tips come in, which, given the publicity around all of this, on the surface, it didn't seem like a whole lot. But the Sheriff was confident that more will continue to pour in, and they think that it's one of those tips that is going to break this wide open.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF CHRIS NANOS, PIMA COUNTY, ARIZONA: We're, like everybody else, we're waiting for that one big break. I just -- I just hope it comes faster. People are always asking, Do I believe she's alive? Absolutely. Absolutely. There's nothing to say she isn't. And so, we have to live on that, and we have to that -- that I hope keeps us motivated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LAVANDERA: So, I thought that was striking there, the way the Sheriff kind of talked about how their posture and how they're approaching this.
As the days drag on, they have been saying that every day that passes by, things become much more difficult, and a little bit of hope kind of goes away. But they're clearly operating from the standpoint is that, not only that she could be very well be alive, they're acting as if she is, because they don't have any evidence to the contrary at this point.
COLLINS: Yes.
LAVANDERA: So, they say that that is the posture that they have, and that they're going to continue forward like that until something comes forward.
COLLINS: Yes. Every time they hold one of those press conferences, everyone is hoping for good news.
Ed Lavandera, keep us updated. I know there have been some activity around the house. Keep us updated. If there's any more that you see tonight on the ground.
Also here tonight, my team of experts. It includes:
CNN's Chief Law Enforcement and Intelligence Analyst, John Miller.
Our Chief Media Analyst, Brian Stelter.
And our Legal Analyst, Joey Jackson.
And it's great to have all of you here just to help us unpack what we do know so far.
And John, I think focusing on these deadlines that we've been talking about, that were in these letters that are just unverified. But I wonder what you make of that deadline coming, and then just minutes after, we hear from the Guthrie family, at least in terms of how they're viewing what they do know so far tonight.
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT & INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: So, they're doubling down on their request for communication. They said that last night in the video they released, with Savannah Guthrie.
But having Camron, her brother come out tonight, with a one-note message, which is, We need to talk to you. You need to reach out to us. We need to know that you are real, that you have our mother and that she's alive. Is a sign that they are trying to communicate with whoever the author of that note was, if they are, in fact, the real kidnappers to say, We're serious about communications. We're not just sloughing the deadline. We need to talk.
COLLINS: One, in terms of that, I should note, John, that there's also a second deadline, apparently, according to the people who've seen these notes. We heard from TMZ's Harvey Levin earlier, who was talking about this.
I just want everyone to listen to what he said in terms of what he read, given he is the person who called the FBI about this letter, what they read in this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEVIN: The placement of it is, I believe, significant, if this person is accurate. This is, I think, what got the FBI's immediate attention. And when I called the Sheriff, as soon as we got the letter, I mentioned the two items and the placement of the watch. And a couple hours later, I got a call from the FBI.
So, you know, to authenticate something, they have to show that they know something that everybody else wouldn't. And as far as we can tell, there has been no report out on the placement of that watch, where it was found. And so, it would be something that would be held close to the vest.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Joey Jackson, when you hear that, in terms of, they want specific information that can say, Hey, this is real, because we know something that no one else would know. I mean, obviously, that's what someone who just got the letter is reading into it. But Joey Jackson, what stands out to you from that?
JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Kaitlan, I think it's a entirely reasonable request. If you have someone who is sending a ransom note, and wanting to get something from you in the way of money. Is it not reasonable for you, otherwise, to say, Hey, can you show us that she's OK? That's number one. So then it would be, really, are they amenable to reason, these people who are allegedly sending this ransom note?
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The other thing is, when you talk about the authenticity of ransom or not. It would seem to me that there's reason to believe that it is authentic. Who would go through, right -- and again, I know nothing, but just in terms of trying to piece this together -- who would go through the trouble of taking an 84-year-old woman from her home, and what would the motivation be? And it would seem to me, if you're going to do that, one motivation may be money.
To the extent that you have the monetary motivation then, it would seem to me also that the person who is holding her captive would be at a loss in the event that they did something to her, because they lose the ability to get any money. So, if that's their self-interest, now you have to appeal to that self-interest. But I think the family making this request is proper. The final thing, Kaitlan, this seems to be based upon that, if this ransom is legitimate, a very targeted and planned type of approach. If that's the case, there'd have to be evidence or information that she was targeted. Were they there on prior occasions? Is there surveillance to get this person or party who was there, right, at some specific point in time? Are there cell towers or other information that can place them there? So I get -- I think it furthers the narrative.
But I do believe that there's reason and hope, in the event that this is about money, that she'd be alive and well, because if they did something to her at this point, they would lose their ability to get it. And that, I think, is a very big thing in this case.
COLLINS: Well, but John, just quickly on that point. If the ransom notes are real, and these people have demands about money and actually want to get it. And it's clear the Guthrie family is open to at least communicating with them. Why do you think there hasn't been that direct communication between the family or authorities and whoever this person or people are?
MILLER: Well, they're trying to maintain control, it might suggest, they're trying to maintain that one-way communication, because they may believe that additional communications raises the risk of being identified or caught.
But frankly, they've already figured out, in all likelihood, how to communicate with hidden emails that are untraceable. There's a number of those out there that you would use. They don't increase their risk by communicating again. In that the FBI has not been able to trace the original one, they can set up another and send another message.
But nobody is going to put forward millions of dollars for something that could be a hoax. That's A. And B is if they're really in the business of kidnapping for money, threat number one, or deadline number two, whatever threat comes with that, she's no good to them if she's not alive, and they can't communicate that. They're not going to get any money the other way. So, this is truly a negotiation, but it takes that second party to engage.
COLLINS: Brian Stelter, I know you've been hearing about how the family -- I mean, just can't even imagine what they're going through tonight. But you had said yesterday they had been meeting with federal agents. They've been talking about this. What's the latest you're hearing tonight on that end?
BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA ANALYST: Well, in some ways it's even more painful now, because they have put out these messages, right? Savannah, Camron have put out these messages, and now they are just waiting hour by hour, for any sign that the messages have been received, and that there might be any response.
Thinking about this, Kaitlan, viewers across the country have been so shaken about this apparent abduction, and it's weighing especially heavily on the minds of Savannah's colleagues, and other high-profile personalities on TV. I'm reporting tonight, security has been stepped up at NBC's TODAY show, as the co-hosts, the colleagues, cover Nancy's abduction. This is, of course, just out of an abundance of caution, but these additional security measures at NBC, they might help to alleviate a little bit of the stress that these journalists feel, as they are on the air, covering this mystery.
Of course, you know, major networks like NBC, they have security departments that support the hosts and liaison with police. We know that Savannah's security team has been working with her this week. So that stepped-up presence at NBC, another example of something that's being done.
And something I can't get out of my head today, Kaitlan, is what we heard from the local authorities about the cameras on the property.
COLLINS: Yes.
STELTER: There was no subscription, no online backup in the cloud for the cameras.
Now, I say this as somebody who's a little bit obsessed, looking at my own cameras. I know lots of neighbors of mine who love to monitor their cameras. Maybe you go a little too far with that, actually. But it's a great reminder for people at a moment like this, if you're not paying whatever it is, $8, $10 bucks a month for that subscription, it's something worth thinking about doing, to have that backup video. And not just for your own property, right? Think about whether you're seeing a car drive by, and the police are asking you to look for your camera.
There's no such -- in a moment like this, those cameras, and both the strengths of those cameras, but also the limitations, really are highlighted. And the idea that there was no cloud backup from her home, that must be really, really frustrating, maybe agonizing, for the investigators involved right now.
COLLINS: Yes, between that and the camera that is missing as well, all of this is just raising so many questions.
STELTER: Right.
[21:15:00]
COLLINS: Thank you so much, Brian, John, and Joey. It's great to have all of you here tonight, to just help us at least process what we do know so far.
And again, as I'm going to say, every night here, anyone who has any information about Nancy Guthrie's disappearance, please call the Pima County Sheriff's Department. They have a tipline. It is 520-351-4900. You can also contact the FBI at 1-800-CALL-FBI.
And please continue to keep the Guthrie family in your prayers, because we sure are.
Our breaking news coverage will continue on this, next, on this urgent search that is under way. We're going to continue to follow this.
And also here tonight, the President's own contradiction coming about why the Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, was on site at the FBI raid of that election office in Fulton County, Georgia. What we're hearing is not really matching up.
And also, there's new details from the newly-released Epstein files. Including, how the administration has been saying it's time to move on. The world clearly doesn't agree.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:20:00]
COLLINS: Tulsi Gabbard's hunt for the President's long-sought, but never found evidence of widespread voter fraud, now extends beyond the State of Georgia.
The Director of National Intelligence has now also seized and tested voting machines from Puerto Rico for vulnerabilities, though it's still not exactly clear why. What is clear is that it's unprecedented for the Director of National Intelligence to play such a hands-on role in the infrastructure of U.S. elections. That's according to former intelligence officials and election experts.
It's also clear that the administration has had difficulty explaining why the DNI was there, on the ground, when the FBI recently raided that elections warehouse in Fulton County, and took those ballots.
When it comes to who exactly asked Tulsi Gabbard to be there, the level of finger-pointing has almost taken on a Spider-Man meme-like quality. Just hear me out.
Initially, the Deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanche, was asked why she was there, and he said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TODD BLANCHE, DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL: I don't know why the Director was there. She is not part of the grand jury investigation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That's what he said.
And then, five days after that raid happened, we heard from Gabbard herself, who said this order came from the President. She wrote a letter to Congress, and told lawmakers that, quote, "My presence was requested by the President." It was stated very clearly.
And at the White House, we also heard from the press secretary, who cited the President as well, when someone asked her why someone, as Gabbard is, in a role that doesn't include law enforcement responsibilities, would be involved in an FBI search.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REPORTER: Why was Tulsi Gabbard involved in a domestic law enforcement search in Georgia?
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Tulsi Gabbard has been tapped by the President of the United States to oversee the sanctity and the security of our American elections.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: But when the President himself was asked why Tulsi Gabbard was there, he did not echo that at all.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM LLAMAS, ANCHOR, "NBC NIGHTLY NEWS WITH TOM LLAMAS": Why is Tulsi Gabbard there?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I don't know but, you know -- a lot of the cheating comes from -- it's -- it's international cheating.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: So, Tulsi Gabbard said that he requested her presence. And when he was asked, he said he did not know.
Less than 24 hours after the President taped that interview, at the White House, he then pointed to the Attorney General, Pam Bondi.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: She went in -- at Pam's insistence -- she went in and she looked at votes that want to be checked out from Georgia.
They say, Why is she doing it? Right, Pam? Why is she doing it?
Because Pam wanted her to do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Do you see what I mean now by the Spider-Man meme? They're all pointing at one another.
We heard from a spokesperson for Tulsi Gabbard, who told CNN, there is no contradiction, in what you just heard there, despite the fact that it does seem, on its face, contradictory. That statement that she posted, by the way, to Twitter, is actually no longer there.
My congressional source tonight is the Vice Chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee. Virginia Democrat, Senator Mark Warner.
And thank you, Senator, for being here.
SEN. MARK WARNER (D-VA): Thank you, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: I mean, just hearing that alone, is it clear to you who sent Tulsi Gabbard to Georgia?
WARNER: Kaitlan, this sounds to me almost like Nixon-esque after the Watergate. People can't get their stories straight. They're lying.
And it begs even the original question, is, why in the hell is the President of the United States aware of a search warrant being ordered in Georgia? So, if he told her to be there, he knew about this beforehand, which, by the way, is exactly the kind of activities that got Richard Nixon in trouble. And then we put a whole series of reforms in place in the 70s.
And now it appears that Trump is once again, maybe throwing her under the bus, because it's pretty clear, she wrote in testimony to the Congress. The press secretary said she was asked to be there by the President. Now maybe seeing it smells bad, and he's trying to move the blame.
But this kind of, you know, it's back to the 70s, if the coverup is worse than the actual incident, although in this case, as you pointed out, the Director of National Intelligence has absolutely nothing to do with domestic electioning and a criminal domestic charge. And if there was any foreign interference, she has already violated the law as well of not keeping her congressional oversight committees informed.
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And I think what I fear, Kaitlan, is that here's a guy that was obsessed about losing in 2020, obsessed about losing in Georgia. And I believe they may be intending to interfere in our elections in 2026 and 2028, and I think we all have to step up our game. Take all of this, and then you add in the President saying he wants to federalize elections--
COLLINS: Yes.
WARNER: --and have Republicans take control? This isn't the way the system works.
COLLINS: Well, on the midterms. Are you worried about the White House intervening, or the President himself intervening in the 2026 midterms?
WARNER: Kaitlan, a year ago, when people brought these, what I thought were, wild theories, I kind of said, You know, that's a little far- fetched.
I'm -- now I'm worried, the activities of what they did to dismantle many of the protections that were put in place, frankly, in Trump 1, cybersecurity protections, the FBI had an active effort about protecting our elections, the ODNI, Director of National Intelligence, they've been dismantled. We now have these claims by these rogue actions of the Director of National Intelligence, we have these conversations of federalizing elections.
And then people will say, Well, you know, Senator, why would having an ICE agent show up at a polling station if we're all registered voters?
Well, first of all, we know there's been racial profiling towards folks, particularly of Latino heritage. We know that there are certain times, mixed families.
But what we've also seen, and this ought to scare the hell out of all of us, is that ICE is collecting information on American citizens. And if you show up at your polling station, and ICE could come up and say, We know you, Kaitlan Collins, we know you've got a parking ticket. Will that scare you away from voting? For many folks, it will.
And this is not hypothetical. We have seen in Minneapolis, an American citizen have her effort to get a Global Entry pass, something that you get from TSA to get faster through the lines, rejected, because ICE had evidence that she showed up at a protest, exercising her First Amendment rights.
You put ICE at polling stations. You put this manipulation of voting machines. You put the President directly intervening in the judicial process in inappropriate ways. And this is a stew that could wreak havoc in our system, beyond the fact of him blatantly saying the quiet part out loud, We ought to federalize elections, and Republicans ought to take control of it.
COLLINS: Yes.
WARNER: Yes, I'm very worried about what happens in 2026.
COLLINS: Well, and again, the White House is very dismissive of the ICE thing. But obviously, we'll see how that plays out.
You mentioned that whistleblower complaint. And just for everyone to know, who has not been paying that close attention to this. It was filed against Tulsi Gabbard, the Director of National Intelligence, back in May.
You said it was heavily redacted when you saw it this week. Your colleague, the Republican, Senator Tom Cotton said he found it to be not credible.
I think some people may say, Well, how do we square those two things? If it's heavily redacted, how do you find it to be credible? Or if it is heavily redacted, how can you say it's not credible? I mean, what should someone else think?
WARNER: That--
COLLINS: What would an objective party will see, how it'd see that?
WARNER: Well, let's take a couple pieces here, bites at this. One, I can't -- one, it's classified. And I'm old-fashioned, I don't think you should reveal classified information. But it was so heavily redacted, I can't make a judgment.
What I can make a judgment on is that this whistleblower came forward in May. The law states very clearly that when a whistleblower brings a complaint forward, you basically -- and they want to come to Congress, and you've got 21 days to do that. That didn't take place.
Matter of fact, we were not -- Congress was not aware of this complaint until November. And then it took the combined work, and Tom Cotton was part of this, and Mike Johnson, the Speaker, and John Thune, all of us working together, say, Hey, you got to share this with us. It still took another three months.
To make matters worse and to show the kind of ineptitude. You've got Tulsi Gabbard saying, even though she swore before our committee that she would honor whistleblower laws, that she didn't know she had an obligation to report this. And we've got her -- her lawyer, on testimony yesterday, saying, No, she had shared -- he had shared all of these responsibilities with Ms. Gabbard about the time of the whistleblower being in middle of June. So, people are either lying, or covering up.
And all of these incidents combined together, and you have what I find to be incompetence at a level that makes Americans less safe, and you have attempts to cover up what appears to be information that they don't like.
And then when there is responsibility, when Ms. Gabbard says, No, as the President said, told me to Georgia. When she says that, then you've got somebody lying, because they then change their story again.
But this is a pattern that we have seen over the last year that really, and I'm pretty calm about these things, makes me really concerned about the security of our elections in 2026.
[21:30:00]
COLLINS: Yes. A sobering statement.
Senator Mark Warner, thank you for joining us tonight. Appreciate your time.
WARNER: Thank you, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Up next. Investigators believe that Nancy Guthrie is still alive. Why they feel that way. And our expert sources are going to break down what these ransom notes say about Bitcoin and why that matters.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:35:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GUTHRIE: This is Camron Guthrie. I'm speaking for the Guthrie family. Whoever is out there holding our mother, we want to hear from you. We haven't heard anything directly. We need you to reach out, and we need a way to communicate with you so we can move forward. But first, we have to know that you have our mom. We want to talk to you, and we are waiting for contact.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That was the heart-wrenching plea that we heard tonight from Nancy Guthrie's son, on behalf of all of her children, Camron there, pleading for whoever it is that's holding their mom to communicate with them.
Officials have still been trying to verify the authenticity of those ransom notes that several media outlets got. I should note, these are notes that are demanding millions of dollars in exchange, in Bitcoin, for Nancy's return.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JANKE: We are aware of a ransom letter that was sent to the local media and then to national outlets. As with every lead, we are taking it seriously. We are in communication with the family. And while we advise and recommend, from a law enforcement perspective, any action taken on any ransom is ultimately decided by the family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: So, they say it's up to the family. Of course, that is a difficult decision, an excruciating one, considering they could end up paying without even knowing for sure if this note is authentic, or tracing who is at the other end of that crypto transaction, and it's obviously notoriously difficult.
On this front, I'm joined tonight by:
Andrew McCabe, who's the former FBI Deputy Director.
And Juan Andres Guerrero-Saade, who is also known as JAGS, a cybersecurity expert and Adjunct Professor at Johns Hopkins.
And so, it's great to have you here, as well tonight, as we're trying to break all this down.
I think the one question is, and you know, when you heard them say, It's up to the family to really make this decision.
ANDREW MCCABE, FORMER FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes.
COLLINS: This is a family that's never been in this position before. I mean, how do you get this unverified letter, and how do you make a decision like that?
MCCABE: Yes, it's absolutely excruciating. No family, really, that I'm aware of, has ever been in this situation until they are.
This is one of the many unfortunate parts about doing this work. The FBI agents who work kidnappings regularly, have to go in and build relationships with these families, and try to help them steer through an absolutely devastating decision.
In this case, at some point between now and Monday, the family will have to decide whether or not to make a -- you know, comply with the ransom demand, having no idea if their mother is actually in the custody of the person who sent that note in.
COLLINS: Yes.
MCCABE: So it's, you know, every family is going to be different, every situation is a little bit different, but there's very little -- there are very few ways to make this easier on them.
COLLINS: Well, and there have been famous kidnappings, obviously, before, where ransoms are demanded.
The Bitcoin of this all. How does that make this different in terms of -- so, let's say that they do decide to pay it, they take that risk.
JUAN ANDRES GUERRERO-SAADE, VP OF INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY RESEARCH, SENTINELONE: Right.
COLLINS: We don't know. I'm just saying, if they take that route. How does that work, in terms of helping them try to establish it, or to trace it to the person on the other end of that transaction?
ANDRES GUERRERO-SAADE: So, there's a -- there's a sort of misconception that Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies are untraceable. In reality, they're the most traceable currencies we've ever had. You can see every single transaction. The problem is that it's pseudonymous. Basically, you can see every movement of money, but you can't tell who it's moving from and to.
So, it becomes this sort of difficult intelligence problem of figuring out on chain where the transactions are moving, whether those wallets have been seen before, and then there's a variety of mechanisms that they can use, in order to tumble and mix and sort of obfuscate where the money is going.
So, were they to make the payment, there's a lot that we can do sort of watching as third parties. But it's going to come down to the skill and the capabilities and how prepared they are, the actors, of knowing what to do with the money once it gets there.
COLLINS: So, if they are skilled, it would be harder to figure out who they are. But maybe they're not, and you're saying that, then they would be able to potentially track them?
ANDRES GUERRERO-SAADE: Possibly. I mean, they're going to have to get the money out at some point, right? So, you -- obviously, I don't want to sort of let the whole game go, but essentially, we'll be able to tell if they are skilled, if they've done this before, the minute the transaction comes in, and how they move that money somewhere.
MCCABE: Yes.
COLLINS: Yes.
MCCABE: We know that the FBI has had success in the past, in the past few years, of recovering money that's been stolen, Bitcoin that's been stolen by state actors. And they have classified and sensitive ways of maintaining some knowledge, some surveillance on those transactions specifically for that purpose. It's not entirely clear that those same capabilities are used in the criminal kidnapping context. But none of that is guaranteed, right?
ANDRES GUERRERO-SAADE: Right.
MCCABE: A skilled operator will be able to stay one step ahead of whoever is trying to watch it.
[21:40:00]
COLLINS: I mean, just, where do you look at this tonight? After what we've heard from the officials now. Now that there's a new video from her children, just saying that they've gotten no communication. As you're someone looking at this. We're all watching it, horrified.
MCCABE: Yes.
COLLINS: How are you looking at it, though, given your experience at the FBI?
MCCABE: Yes, I mean, there's a number of -- there's a number of things here, I think, that are -- that are particularly discouraging.
First and foremost is Nancy herself. She's a particularly vulnerable victim, because of her physical condition. And I think it's really questionable how well she'll hold up to the stress, of just even being detained for this long.
Now, you add on top of that the confusion around, are these -- are these ransom notes legitimate? Does the person who sent these notes actually have custody of her? We don't know that. And now this kind of like unsolvable puzzle of their refusing to communicate and provide proof of life.
They are -- they're in an impossible position here. I just, my heart goes out to them. I wish there was something that the FBI or anybody else could do to make this easier, to give guidance that would be clearer. But it's just a terrible situation, and the deck -- the deck seems stacked against them.
COLLINS: Bitcoin is not something that a lot of people know how to use. I mean, if they're saying, Wire this money, or, Leave a suitcase full of cash here, I mean, that's something I think people associate ransom with. But if this is real, does that tell you anything about the profile of who these people or this person is?
ANDRES GUERRERO-SAADE: I mean, we'll know more in the case where they decide -- if they decide to pay, then we would be able to see essentially, what they do with the money when it gets to that wallet.
The choice of Bitcoin is actually unusual. In my team at SentinelOne, we usually investigate ransomware operations, and you're looking at folks who want to use other cryptocurrencies, because they're harder to trace, because they're made to actually be just difficult to keep track of.
Bitcoin is sort of the de facto standard. It's the one that everybody knows. The thing that kind of highlights its value is the liquidity. Because of all the speculation, most folks are using -- if they're going to use a cryptocurrency, it's probably Bitcoin or Ethereum. So, it makes sense that if you're trying to get somebody who's never used this before, who's never dealt with cryptocurrency, that you would go for Bitcoin.
COLLINS: You would go with Bitcoin.
ANDRES GUERRERO-SAADE: But it also leaves them sort of a little more exposed.
COLLINS: Yes.
MCCABE: And, I mean, it is the currency of crime. Not just kidnappings, right? Drug trafficking, the trafficking in arms of illicit devices on the internet, and like so much of the criminal activity, the funding behind criminal activity, the transactions are done in Bitcoin.
COLLINS: Yes, it's what the founders tried to push back against, this connotation.
MCCABE: Yes.
COLLINS: Andy, great to have you.
JAGS, thanks for joining us tonight to break that down.
ANDRES GUERRERO-SAADE: Of course.
COLLINS: Of course, we'll keep following this closely.
Also, we're following this top story tonight, as the far-reaching fallout of the Epstein files is spanning way past the United States. How the scandal is actually deeply affecting the British Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, and his job.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: The fallout from the latest release of the Epstein documents has stretched far and wide.
In the U.K., the British Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, did not know Jeffrey Epstein, but he's now facing calls to step down because of him. Starmer had to apologize to Epstein survivors, after the latest release that came out showed more connections between his pick for ambassador to Washington, that's Peter Mandelson, and Jeffrey Epstein.
Starmer has now since been facing an angry revolt from his own party, after he said that he did know about the relationship that Mandelson and Epstein had, yet still assigned Mandelson to the critical post here in Washington anyway.
The fallout does not stop there, though it's also reaching into Norway, where the Crown Princess there is facing fresh scrutiny over her ties and her emails to Epstein. And also, in Poland, where the Prime Minister says that they are looking into ties between Jeffrey Epstein and Russian intelligence services.
One world leader who says he is not concerned about the fallout from the Epstein files is here in the United States.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I think it's really time for the country to get onto something else, really. You know, now that nothing came out about me, other than it was a conspiracy against me, literally, by Epstein and other people. But I think it's time now for the country to maybe get on to something else like health care, or something that people care about.
COLLINS: But what would you say to people who feel like they haven't gotten justice, Mr. President?
TRUMP: Yes, what did you say? Go ahead, CNN. You are so worse, you know?
COLLINS: What would you -- what would you say to the survivors who feel like they haven't gotten justice?
TRUMP: You are the worst reporter. No wonder C -- CNN has no ratings because of people like you. You know, she's a young woman. I don't think I've ever seen you smile. I've known you for 10 years. I don't think I've ever seen a smile on your face. You know why--
COLLINS: Well, I'm asking you about survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's, Mr. President.
TRUMP: --you know why you're not smiling? Because you know you're not telling the truth. And you're a -- you're a very dishonest organization. And they should be ashamed of you.
COLLINS: These are survivors of a sexual abuser.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: After that exchange happened in the Oval Office, on Tuesday. The Vice President, JD Vance, offered this advice when asking questions about survivors of sexual assault.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JD VANCE (R), U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: I mean, like, there was a moment in the Oval Office -- I wasn't even in there, but -- you know, I was in the West Wing, and somebody sent me, where he was talking to Kaitlan Collins, who's the CNN anchor. And I have, like, a decent relationship with Kaitlan Collins, which is unusual given that she's from CNN. But the President -- she's asking a question, and the President says, Why don't you ever smile? MEGYN KELLY, HOST, "THE MEGYN KELLY SHOW": Yes.
VANCE: And it's actually, like, so perceptive. Even if you're asking a tough question, even if you take your job very seriously, like, why does it always have to be so antagonistic?
[21:50:00]
KELLY: Well, I laugh because I saw online, everybody was calling him, sexist, for saying that. And I literally said the same thing about Kaitlan Collins a year ago on my show.
(LAUGHTER)
KELLY: She never smiles.
VANCE: Yes.
KELLY: Every once in a while, you have to smile. Roger Ailes used to tell us that. Every once in a while you get--
VANCE: Have some--
KELLY: --remember to smile, show the viewers that you have a heart.
VANCE: Just have -- have some fun.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Yes. Megyn Kelly there was citing Roger Ailes, her former boss at Fox News that she accused of sexual harassment.
Again, the point of the question was, what the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein are saying, and the justice and the accountability that they want to see. It's nothing to smile about. And that group of survivors includes my next guest, Annie Farmer.
And Annie, I just -- we have talked multiple times about this, about the disclosure of these files, about the fight that you and other survivors have had here, and about your sister. When you hear the President say he thinks the country wants to move on from the Epstein files. Is that how you feel?
ANNIE FARMER, JEFFREY EPSTEIN SURVIVOR: Well, first, let me say, Kaitlan, thank you so much for having me back. And I know, I don't just speak for myself, when I say, I really appreciate how persistent you were in questioning this administration, about their failure with this release. I don't think it's something to smile about, and I thought you handled it very appropriately.
I'm not surprised that Trump is ready to move on, and that this DOJ is ready to move on. But we are certainly not, especially after we see -- we saw how poorly this last release of documents was handled.
COLLINS: And what is it that you do want? People see this release. There was information that a lot of people felt should have been redacted, that wasn't. Or information that shouldn't have been, including that of victims and survivors, that was.
FARMER: Yes.
COLLINS: What was it that you've heard and that you saw?
FARMER: I saw three primary issues with the way that -- where we are right now, with this release.
One was, there were -- for people that aren't looking through these documents themselves, I think it's hard to understand the quantity of documents that included personal identifying information about survivors, a list of names that was literally called the Epstein victim list that had something like, 40 or 50 names, primarily of minor victims, completely unredacted, except for one name, right?
And then, as we know from The New York Times reporting, nude images of girls and young women that were released by our government. That's really them distributing Child Sexual Abuse materials, right? Like, these are horrific things that happened during this release. And so, those are -- you know, that is a huge issue.
But then we also saw documents that were victim statements completely blacked out, three pages of black ink, and then a small portion that wasn't, saying something like, This is why I'm so scared of these powerful men that harmed me. So obviously, people in positions of power continuing to be protected, the exact thing that the law was supposed to outline was not supposed to happen.
And then third, we know that there is other pertinent information that has still not been released. Of course, people are continuing to sort through files. There is a lot.
But, for example, my sister, Maria Farmer, in the first release, we saw part of her 1996 report to the FBI, where she outlined the theft of photos that she had taken for her art. But she also described her own assault at Les Wexner's property, and she described my assault at Zorro Ranch. And I don't believe there's any way that those were not documented as well, and we're still not seeing that. Is it because it included other names of powerful people? We don't know.
But when they say, We've released everything that's pertinent to this investigation? We're not buying it.
COLLINS: Yes, when people said they wanted to see the Epstein list, they weren't talking about a list of underage girls that he assaulted. They're talking about the powerful people in his orbit, and accountability for that.
And on the accountability front. I think some people look at what is happening in British Parliament, where they're screaming at Keir Starmer, and his hands are kind of shaking, as he's explaining his own ambassador's ties to Jeffrey Epstein, or trying to. And in Norway, where the princess -- the Crown Princess is under scrutiny.
Does it feel to you like there's just not that same level of accountability in the United States? FARMER: Yes, certainly from a government level. I think when we're looking overseas, we're wondering, Why is that happening elsewhere, and we're not seeing it here?
We are seeing, of course, people being forced to resign from positions of power, and people's relationships being more closely examined, which I think is really important, because some of these people that were willing to look the other way, about pedophilia, are not people that I want making decisions about my child's education, or about the health care of our country, right?
So, I think that there's different types of accountability, and we are seeing some of that happen, which I think is really important. But we also know that there were other crimes that were committed.
[21:55:00]
And when we're hearing Todd Blanche say, There's not enough evidence for further prosecution to happen. I think, the prosecutors I'm talking to, that specifically work on these types of crimes, are saying, These files are full of investigative leads. But what we're not seeing is where was the investigation. And until we see what happened to follow up on those leads, I don't know how we are supposed to be satisfied and willing to move on, when we know nothing was done.
COLLINS: Yes, and there's a draft indictment with names blacked out.
Annie Farmer, I'm always grateful when you're willing to come on, and join us, and speak from your experience. So, thank you for being willing to do so, again tonight.
FARMER: Thank you for having me.
COLLINS: And we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAD BUNNY, PUERTO RICAN RAPPER AND SINGER: It's going to be fun and it's going to be -- it's going to be easy. And people only have to worry about dance. I know that I told them that they had four months to learn Spanish. They don't even have to learn Spanish. They just -- it's better if they learn to dance. But I think there's no--
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The word's not dance (ph).
BAD BUNNY: There's no better dance than the one that come from the heart. You know, the heartbeat dance? That's the only thing that they need to worry about. And have fun and enjoy it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: From Bad Bunny himself. You don't need to learn Spanish. Just learn how to dance.
CNN's going to have more with our exclusive documentary about Bad Bunny, this Saturday, ahead of his Super Bowl halftime show this Sunday.
Thanks for joining us tonight.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
