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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Bill Clinton Testifies In House Epstein Investigation; Trump "Not Happy" About U.S.-Iran Talks, Weighing Military Options; Trump Orders Federal Agencies To Stop Work With Anthropic. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired February 27, 2026 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: That's Neil and his grandson, Michael, on the program. Because, as many of you already know, he was not just one of the great song writers of all time, he's also a treasured uncle to this sweet little kid on his left there. Harry Enten.
Neil Sedaka was 86-years-old. What an incredible life and contribution. He shall be missed.
The news continues. Kaitlan Collins starts now on THE SOURCE.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: The first time a former President has ever been forced to testify before Congress. What Bill Clinton told lawmakers about Jeffrey Epstein. My first source tonight was there inside the room.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
History was made today, as Bill Clinton became the first former President ever compelled to testify before Congress against his will. The topic of the more than six hours of questioning, behind closed doors: What he did or did not know about Jeffrey Epstein's notorious sex trafficking operation.
The former President began the hours-long session with this declaration, saying, quote, "I saw nothing, and I did nothing wrong."
As they emerged from that room today, Republicans and Democratic lawmakers, who were in there, didn't seem to agree exactly on what Bill Clinton had told them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JAMES COMER (R-KY): Ranking Member Garcia asked President Clinton, quote, Should President Trump be called to answer questions from this committee?
And President Clinton said, That's for you to decide. And the President went on to say that the President, Trump, has never said anything to me to make me think he was involved. And he meant with Epstein. REP. ROBERT GARCIA (D-CA): Think that -- the way Chairman Comer described it, I don't think is a complete, accurate description of what actually was said. So, let's release the full transcript, so that you can get -- all get a full record of what actually was said, which brings up some very important new questions about comments that President Trump has actually said in the past.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: As for how it felt inside the room, and how today's deposition compared with yesterday's, with the former Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, hear for yourself how the Chairman, James Comer, described it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Why do you think today was more respectful than yesterday? Was President Clinton more cooperative than his wife?
COMER: Well--
REP. ANNA PAULINA LUNA (R-FL): We were respectful.
COMER: Yes. I mean--
PAULINA LUNA: I think -- I think--
COMER: You can watch the video and say, you know, everybody knows President Clinton. He's got the southern people skills.
REP. NANCY MACE (R-SC): He was pretty charming.
COMER: He was a charming individual.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Southern people skills. We will wait to see what that looks like on camera. Because, we are still waiting on video of that testimony that we know will be released. Also, video of Hillary Clinton's testimony from yesterday. It will be made public eventually, so we can all watch it for ourselves, what happened inside the room there.
One thing we do know the former President was questioned about was this photo of him in a hot tub. A source tells CNN that he told lawmakers he did not know or have sex with the woman who is in that image. It's redacted there, as you can see, what was released by the Justice Department.
And while Republicans on the committee have focused on the Democrats, their ties to Epstein that have surfaced in these documents. Democrats on the committee have been arguing that what happened today paves the way for President Trump to now testify, given one of his predecessors has.
The President himself was asked about this, as he was leaving the White House today, about the fact that Bill Clinton was testifying behind closed doors. He said he didn't like to see a former President being deposed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I don't know anything about the Epstein files. You know, I've been fully exonerated.
REPORTER: Are you concerned about President Bill Clinton being deposed and that, that sets precedent for you and your family?
TRUMP: I don't like seeing him deposed. But, you know, they certainly went after me a lot more than that.
I don't like, I don't like. Look, I like him, and I don't like seeing him deposed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: There's also more scrutiny that is mounting on the President's Cabinet tonight, after the Justice Department restored this picture of Howard Lutnick, showing the Commerce Secretary years ago with Jeffrey Epstein on his private island. A Justice Department official told us, this picture was originally taken down as part of a batch of files that they said were flagged for nudity.
The President himself was asked today if the Commerce Secretary, Howard Lutnick, should follow the Clintons and testify as well, about what he knew about Epstein and his relationship, to the Oversight Committee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Well, Howard would go in and do whatever he had to say, so. He's a very innocent guy. He's doing a good job.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:05:00]
COLLINS: Joining me tonight, a Democrat from Missouri who was part of today's questioning. Congressman Wesley Bell.
And also, our Senior Legal Analyst, Elie Honig, is here with us.
And Congressman, thank you for being here.
Because obviously, we haven't seen what it was like inside the room today. Did you hear anything from the former President that impacts this investigation, do you think?
REP. WESLEY BELL (D-MO): No, not at all. And I'm a former prosecutor. And so, I was glad that the Clintons were willing to testify. And they wanted to testify publicly, but Republicans refused. I found the President to be forthcoming. He answered every single question. There was no Fifth Amendment pleading or anything like that. He answered every question. And I think now it's time for President Trump to do the same.
COLLINS: What did you -- what kind of questions did you have for him?
BELL: Well, we as a -- as a team, we were asking a lot of questions, so we couldn't repeat the same questions, obviously.
And the questions that we wanted to know were, What did you know and what was your involvement, what was your role? But then also, What specifically has the Trump administration, what are they doing with their lack -- the lack of, of an investigation, I guess, is, what is, what I should say.
And what we -- what we found with the President is that he talked about -- he talked about every -- everything that was asked of him. And I have to say, as someone who was listening, because, you know, first and foremost, I want to see justice for these victims and survivors. So, that's the way I'm taking in all of this information.
COLLINS: So, you're saying you didn't take it easy on him because he's a Democrat?
BELL: Oh, no, he answered -- he answered the tough questions, absolutely, and--
COLLINS: Can I ask you? Because Lauren Boebert, your colleague on the Republican side, who was also in the room. Yesterday, there was a whole thing about her posting a picture of Hillary Clinton testifying. Because, as you noted, the Clintons wanted to testify publicly. It was done behind closed doors. She just posted a picture of the former President testifying today, quoting Hillary Clinton in that, but posting a picture of him.
I mean, when you see that, and you see what Republicans came out and said. They're also describing this, saying that that he didn't (ph) give them a lot of insight, when it comes to furthering this investigation. How did the Republicans question him today?
BELL: The Republicans, I found their questions to be sloppy, incoherent at times. And not all of them. Clearly, there was the -- the attempt was to throw punches and to smear, as opposed to actually do a serious investigation, which is what we were supposed to be there, doing.
The fact that Republicans would insist that no that the -- that these depositions were not going to be public. Democrats as well as the Clintons asked for all the media to be let in. They were 50 yards from us. You could just let them -- let them in the door. And Republicans refused. And then the hypocrisy of then releasing pictures, release -- leaking statements? It's just, it's unethical, it's wrong, and the victims and -- and the victims and survivors deserve better.
COLLINS: Well, and Elie, as you well know, Bill Clinton is not new to being questioned for hours on end. It obviously happened to him as part of Ken Starr's investigation. What do you make of what we saw today?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, not surprised to hear the Congressman's account of what happened in that room, because Bill Clinton has shown that he thrives in these situations. He's prepared. He's a lawyer. He knows what he's doing. He's not intimidated. Occasionally, he talks himself into a little bit of trouble, historically. And I think the Congressman raised--
COLLINS: Understatement of the year.
HONIG: Right. I mean.
I think the Congressman raised -- you raised an interesting question just now, which is the apparent and, I think, conspicuous lack of activity by our United States Justice Department.
In a week, where we saw the British authorities making two high- profile arrests, and based off documents that you all got. And we've seen you all in Congress. And as you know, you're a former prosecutor. Prosecutors have way more powerful investigative tools than you do now in Congress. And yet, here you are, compelling answers out of powerful people.
And I'm wondering if you based -- putting back on your prosecutor hat, have you seen anything in the files or in the depositions, that would have caused you -- you don't have to name names -- but that would have caused you, as a prosecutor, to say, OK, we're opening a criminal investigation on that?
BELL: And that is the problem. This investigation has been so unserious. And I've led serious investigations, and this is not that.
When you have Hillary Clinton, like there's no reason that she should be -- she should have been brought before us. That was a day of my life I can never get back. It was a waste of time. Great to see her, but there was nothing that she could offer.
[21:10:00]
President Clinton actually said he was glad that we -- his information was important, and his testimony was important. He acknowledged that, and he answered every question as if it was important. And I appreciate that, because, again, I believe the American people, but also the survivors and victims deserve that.
COLLINS: Yes, and Democrats did agree to subpoena both Clintons, I should note.
But when Nancy Mace says, Part of the episode where Hillary came unglued yesterday and was screaming -- to deflect from the fact that the Commerce Secretary, Howard Lutnick tried to raise money from Epstein for Hillary after she denied seeking funds from him.
Is that -- will that be shown on the tape? In your view, is that what happened? BELL: Screaming? There was no screaming. There was interruptions by the Congresswoman, while Secretary Clinton was trying to answer. But there was no screaming. And, again, this is the same thing as the Republicans repeating the exoneration line, hoping that if they keep saying it, that it will stick.
The President hasn't been exonerated. Hillary Clinton conducted herself as the professional as I expected. But now, President Trump needs to testify. There is no other name as mentioned more than President Trump in the Epstein files, other than potentially Epstein himself. And so, if the President didn't do anything, then put your hand on the Bible, raise that right hand and testify under oath.
COLLINS: Well, as to far as to who we could see come in, Chairman Comer said something interesting about basically his standard about who he believes should be called to testify today, Elie.
I want your take on this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COMER: We have a lot of questions about anyone who spent time with Epstein post-conviction, the first conviction. I think that's where -- and if anyone disagrees, feel free to speak up. But I think that's where most of our concerns are.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Wouldn't that exclude people, though, who were aware of Epstein's crimes in part?
HONIG: It's a bizarre line to draw, because if we're talking about who's to blame for associating with Jeffrey Epstein later, yes, then post-2008 means by that point. And the reason 2008 is significant is that's when he pled guilty in Florida to soliciting a minor for prostitution. But if you're worried about real justice for the victims, you want pre-2008. You want while this is going on.
I do wonder, are you all, if you take the majority, are you all willing to subpoena Howard Lutnick? And are you willing to subpoena the President?
BELL: If -- when Democrats take the majority, we are going to go wherever the evidence follows us. And the, again, this is -- this is how investigations work. Particularly, we're not talking about a traffic ticket, which is similar to what Acosta's deal, which should have been if you had a traffic ticket. We're talking about sex trafficking. No, this is serious.
These young girls were exploited, and we need to get to the bottom of it, and we need to know what they knew before, what they knew after, what they knew during. It doesn't matter. We need to find the truth, and the American people want us to do just that.
COLLINS: Congressman, thank you for joining us tonight after being behind closed doors for many hours today. Elie, thank you as well.
Up next here. The President says he still has a big decision to make on Iran. He still says he wants a deal, but he's weighing strikes after a major military buildup is happening in the Middle East, and he's not happy with how talks are going.
Also, on that endorsement in Texas, he had the key candidates all standing by his side for that Senate race today. He says he's decided who he likes, but he didn't exactly say it.
Also, a remarkable fight is playing out between an artificial intelligence company in the Pentagon. One company says they don't want their technology used for mass surveillance or autonomous killer weapons. And now, President Trump has just issued a new directive.
[21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, President Trump says he's still weighing military strikes in Iran as the diplomatic talks that have been underway have not yet yielded what he's looking for.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We have a big decision to make. You know that. Not easy. Not easy. We have a very big decision to make.
We haven't made a final decision. We're not exactly happy with the way they negotiated. They cannot have nuclear weapons, and we're not thrilled with the way they're negotiating. So, we'll see how it all works out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The threat of potential military action has prompted the U.S. Ambassador to Israel to tell staff there, that if they want to leave the country, they should do so today. That warning comes after the arrival of the USS Gerald Ford carrier strike group in northern Israel. As you could see here on the map, it is only adding to the massive military buildup that we've seen in the region.
A source is telling CNN that the top military commander in the Middle East has briefed President Trump about his options in Iran. He did so on -- he did so yesterday.
And that comes, as we heard the President, this week, talking about Iran, where his mind is at on this, as he argued during the State of the Union, that they are working to build missiles that are capable of reaching the United States.
But our sources have told us what the President said is not backed up by U.S. intelligence. There's an unclassified assessment from the Defense Intelligence Agency from last year that noted it would take another 10 years for Iran to develop a militarily-viable intercontinental ballistic missile, and that's only if Tehran is pursuing the capability. And as of now, no intelligence suggests that Iran is doing so.
The President's top aide seems to dispute that last week, when he said Iran was a week away from nuclear bomb-making material.
[21:20:00]
Now, all this is a timeline that has drawn a lot of scrutiny because listen to what Steve Witkoff said. But also, look at the fact that it was seven months ago that the President claimed repeatedly that he, the United States, had obliterated Iran's nuclear capabilities.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Iran's key nuclear enrichment facilities have been completely and totally obliterated.
The site is obliterated.
It's been obliterated. It would be years before they could ever get going.
Iran has been taken out in terms of a nuclear threat.
Somebody said, Sir, they're starting their nuclear program again. I said, Let me tell you something. They are not starting anything.
Place was obliterated.
It has been obliterated, as you know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That last comment was in February.
Joining me tonight is the Democratic congressman, Jason Crow of Colorado, a former Army Ranger, who serves on the House Armed Services and Intelligence Committees.
When you hear the President say, seven months ago, they obliterated Iran's nuclear potential. To Steve Witkoff saying, they're a week away from that. Which one do you think it is?
REP. JASON CROW (D-CO): Well, clearly it's a farce, Kaitlan, right? This president doesn't see a problem that he doesn't think he can bomb his way out of, seven different countries in the first year of his administration alone.
You know, he is somebody who campaigned as an isolationist. And he's governing, as Commander-in-Chief now, as an imperialist, as an interventionist. And people have had enough of it, right? They've had enough of the lies. They've had enough of the deception. One moment they say they've obliterated the program. The next day they want to send an armada and a bunch of ships and planes over to bomb again, right? And as a three-time combat veteran, I get pretty hot when I see draft dodgers, like Donald Trump, and other folks in the administration, who've never had to pick up a gun, or get into a plane, or get into a helicopter, once again bang the war drums. Because, you know who ends up holding the bag? Working-class Americans end up holding the bag. They're the ones that have to pay for it. They're the ones that have to do the fighting, and the dying. And it just has to stop.
COLLINS: So, you don't believe action is justified. Is that what I'm hearing tonight?
CROW: Well, as a working-class guy who went to war three times, I'm pretty skeptical of more war and conflict, after 20 years, $3 trillion, thousands of American lives.
As a member of Congress, and member of the Armed Services and the Intelligence Committee, I had not seen any imminent threat originating from a -- the nuclear program that they say they obliterated, and that would justify a non-congressionally sanctioned intervention here.
Like, if they want to go to war with Iran, they need to come to Congress. We need to debate it. We need to come home. We need to sit in front of town halls. Go into high school gymnasiums. We need to justify that vote, and take it to the American people. That's how the Constitution works.
COLLINS: If it's just a strike on Iran, does that view still stand? Do you still think he needs to come to Congress?
CROW: Well, there's all sorts of just strikes, right? Like, we just saw in the last year, seven just strikes, right? This is -- these things cost tens of billions of dollars. They put our military at risk, and they also jeopardize our alliances and our credibility.
Is it OK for us just to strike any country at any time, because the President thinks it's right, or because he's pissed off about what a country or a foreign leader says? Just like he snatched a foreign leader out of his bed in the middle of the night, a couple of months ago, because he's upset about that person, and then replaced that individual with another dictator like he did in Venezuela?
This is all out of control, right? We need to reinsert some guardrails here. We need to put Congress back in the driver's seat, which means putting the American people back in the driver's seat. They have had enough of nation-building. They've had enough of regime change. They want us focused on health care, on infrastructure, on the cost of living, and doing the right things to keep America safe. And this is not that.
COLLINS: Well, I think even if someone is an American who supports this, or thinks that there should be regime change in Iran, I mean, they might have some questions about what exactly warrants it.
Because, for months, we've heard from the White House that their nuclear potential had been obliterated. I mean, that was the word. The President was very sensitive to reporting that suggested that it had not completely wiped out all of Iran's nuclear capabilities, last summer, even though we reported extensively about the damage that it had done.
And I was talking to one of your colleagues over in the Senate, Markwayne Mullin, about this, earlier this week. And I want you to listen to what he said when I asked him, kind of basically how that would work.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN (R-OK): It doesn't mean you can't rebuild. I mean, people have car accidents and obliterate their bones and their legs, and yet they can still put -- you know, they can still put metal back in them and walk again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: What's your response to that argument?
[21:25:00]
CROW: Well, it's just simply not true. They have not -- listen, there's no imminent threat coming from Iran based on their nuclear program right now. I've seen no information, no intelligence. I pay attention to this stuff very closely.
And per your earlier point, Kaitlan, there's a difference between wanting regime change and wanting to address the tyrannical regime and the terrorism that comes out of Iran, which is real, by the way. I mean, they are the largest state sponsor of terrorism. They've killed American soldier -- soldiers. They are -- they're a rogue regime. That is true.
But does that mean that the answer to all of that is that the United States has to get involved and bomb every single time? We have a bad track record of this turning out poorly, very poorly. What in recent history would suggest that we are good at regime change business?
And let's also remember that the reason why this regime is up against the ropes right now is because the Iranian people are the ones who are rising up, who are protesting, who are sitting in the streets, who are taking it to the regime. Right? It's those people that are doing it. So, let's support the Iranian people in their quest for freedom and democracy, instead of bombing this regime, which, by the way, the regime always uses, when we do that, as an excuse for further crackdown--
COLLINS: Yes.
CROW: --and undermines the resistance within Iran.
COLLINS: Yes.
Congressman Jason Crow, thanks for joining us tonight.
CROW: Thank you. COLLINS: We'll continue to monitor the President's deliberations on that.
Also, he was in Texas today. He got a warmer welcome from all three Republican Senate candidates. They all want his endorsement. None of them have gotten it yet. Though the President did say something today that caught our attention.
My political sources are here next.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We are four days out from the Texas primary, and President Trump said today that he has pretty much decided who to back in that Republican fight for the U.S. Senate seat there. But the President is not yet saying who exactly that is, even though he had all three of the candidates with him in Texas today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We have a great Attorney General. Ken Paxton.
Where's Ken?
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: Hi, Ken.
And we have a great senator, John Cornyn. Hi John.
(CHEERING)
TRUMP: And another friend of mine who's doing very well, Wesley Hunt.
You're in a little race together. You know that, right? A little bit of a race. Going to be an interesting one.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Safe to say they do know that. John Cornyn, who the President mentioned there, is battling for his fifth term. He's being challenged by the other two people the President shouted out, Ken Paxton, Wesley Hunt.
It is a primary fight that has been full of personal, vicious attacks, including that scathing ad that came out from Senator Cornyn's world, accusing Ken Paxton of having an affair. He is not the only person who was in that event today, in Texas, facing that accusation.
The Republican congressman, Tony Gonzales, who is also up for reelection, has been facing calls from other Republicans on Capitol Hill to resign from his office, amid reports that he had an affair with a former staffer who later died after she set herself on fire. Now, he's denied those allegations, and said that more facts will come out. He was at the President's event today and got a shout-out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You have a great Congressman.
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: Congressman Tony Gonzales is here.
Tony, congratulations.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Joining me tonight are my political sources.
Karen Finney, who is a former senior advisor to Hillary Clinton.
And a former Republican senator for Arizona, Jeff Flake.
It's great to have both of you here.
Senator Flake, obviously, I mean the Tony Gonzales moment, I think was strange, just given the allegations against him. It's not clear how much the President is aware of that.
But on this Senate race itself, and what's playing out, and all three of them being in the same event today. I wonder what you make of how this is playing out four days away.
JEFF FLAKE, (R) FORMER ARIZONA SENATOR: Well, let me just say, the Gonzales thing, that was bizarre. How could the President not follow what's going on there? And that one will come back to haunt, I think.
But with the Senate race, man, to have three still in the race, the President not indicate a preference. Obviously, the NRSC or the Senate campaign arm certainly has a preference, and that's John Cornyn. They were part of that ad, and they say that it will cost maybe a $100 million to protect that seat if Ken Paxton is the nominee. So, the Senate Republicans are certainly hoping the President will express his preference before the election on Tuesday.
COLLINS: I mean, is it odd, Senator Flake, though, to have all three of them there together, and the President says--
FLAKE: Yes.
COLLINS: --he thinks he knows which one he likes, but he's not revealing that before Tuesday, I don't think. I think, because what I've heard from the White House is they're getting told by all three camps, Oh, our polling shows us in the lead, that we can beat the Democrat here.
FLAKE: Right.
COLLINS: And the White House doesn't seem to know who to believe here.
FLAKE: I think they know who to believe. I think they know how this will end up if Ken Paxton, in particular, is a nominee.
But this is classic President Trump. He likes to hold the drama and be there right until the end and be the kingmaker. But boy, this is -- this is waiting an awful long time.
COLLINS: Yes.
And Karen, I mean, obviously this matters--
KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, SENIOR ADVISOR TO HILLARY CLINTON 2016 CAMPAIGN, FORMER DNC COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Yes.
COLLINS: --because Democrats are dealing with their own primary here. It's quite heated as well. Jasmine Crockett. James Talarico.
FINNEY: Right.
COLLINS: There was actually a notable voice that weighed in today, backing Jasmine Crockett in a robocall. Want everyone to listen to that.
[21:35:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Texas has the chance to send a fighter like Jasmine Crockett to the United States Senate. Jasmine has the experience and record to hold Donald Trump and his billionaire cronies accountable. It's time to turn Texas blue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FINNEY: Yes.
COLLINS: How much of a difference, Karen, do you think the former Vice President's endorsement makes here?
FINNEY: You know what's important about that is that it's a reminder for those who may not know there is a primary on Tuesday. I mean, those of us who are obsessed with politics, we know that Tuesday is Election Night in America. But there are people in Texas who may not actually be following it quite as closely.
So, that's a big help to Jasmine. Obviously, the attention that that will get going into the weekend is also helpful, both in reminding people that there is a primary and that the Vice President -- the former Vice President, has endorsed her.
And let me just say, it's sort of interesting, because on both sides, the dynamic, they're sort of -- folks are both looking -- both Republicans and Democrats, are also kind of looking at not just their primary, but who they think has the best chance to win in the general, this sort of electability question. And everyone's sort of trying to size up, if this happens, then we -- this person, and if this happens, then it should be that person. So, that's the other dynamic that makes it such an interesting race to follow.
COLLINS: Yes.
I mean, Senator Flake, given your familiarity with the Senate. If you were going up against Jasmine Crockett or James Talarico, who do you think Republicans should be the most concerned about?
FLAKE: Oh, Republicans are praying, praying that it's Crockett in the race.
Talarico, there's no guarantee. There is a young candidate. He hasn't really been tested on a national stage. Having said that, he promises to reach across the aisle, get those swing voters, and that's what -- where Democrats have fell short in Texas every time, is they believe that just turning out the vote, the Democratic vote will be enough, and it's not. You have to have somebody that can reach across the aisle a bit, or across the political divide, and Talarico seems to maybe be able to do that.
FINNEY: Can I just speak to that, Kaitlan? Because I think one of the dynamics, this cycle, I think it's something we're going to see play out throughout the rest of this year, and obviously into November, of course. Is that what voters are looking for? Are voters looking for people who can reach across the aisle? That may be part of it.
But we also know that we're hearing from a lot of voters, they want a check on Trump's power, and they don't believe that the Republicans, at least in the Democratic and Independent circles, that Republicans have been willing to do that.
So, while in a normal -- back in normal political world, that would have been a strong message.
COLLINS: Yes.
FINNEY: I'm not sure that that's what voters are looking for, this time around. But we'll see.
COLLINS: Yes, that's a good point, and a good thing to watch for come Tuesday.
Karen Finney. Former senator, Jeff Flake. Great to have both of your voices here tonight. Thank you for joining me.
FINNEY: Thanks.
FLAKE: Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next here on THE SOURCE. The President is now getting involved in this $200 million fight that is playing out at the Pentagon. It is quite remarkable that they have just blacklisted one of the biggest AI companies in the United States for this reason.
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: An extraordinary fight in Washington is playing out right in the open tonight, and it has culminated with the President ordering all federal agencies to stop using Anthropic, because the company won't let the Pentagon use its artificial intelligence technology without a few restrictions.
The President blasted Anthropic in this long post today, saying, quote, "We don't need it, we don't want it, and will not do business with them again."
Now, that comes after a heated clash that's been playing out between the Pentagon, and the Anthropic CEO, Dario Amodei, who you see here, after he announced that the company won't drop two red lines they have for the Pentagon to use Anthropic's Claude AI system. One is that it wouldn't be used in autonomous weapons. And two, that it wouldn't be used in the mass surveillance of American citizens.
There was a 05:01 p.m. deadline today that loomed to either relinquish and give up to the President -- to the Pentagon's demands and drop those safeguards that I just mentioned there. And the Anthropic CEO put out a statement, saying, Threats do not change our position: we cannot in good conscience accede to their request.
Now, minutes after that deadline passed today, the Defense Secretary, Pete Hegseth said he is directing the Department of War to designate Anthropic a Supply-Chain Risk to National Security.
Now, that's a huge escalation. And maybe it doesn't sound familiar. But typically, it's only used for foreign adversaries or foreign companies, certainly not an American one like Anthropic.
And moments before we just came on the air tonight, Anthropic responded to what you just heard from the Pentagon, saying, quote, "No amount of intimidation or punishment from the Department of War will change our position on mass domestic surveillance or fully autonomous weapons. We will challenge any supply chain risk designation in court."
Joining me tonight is Helen Toner, the Executive Director at Georgetown's Center for Security and Emerging Technology, who's also a former Board Member at ChatGPT developer, OpenAI.
It's great to have you here.
Because, I just think watching this play out, and I've been talking to sources about what exactly was going on. And basically, both sides seem to be viewing the other with total hostility and not really seeing what their argument was at all. I mean, what do you make of what's been playing out between the Pentagon and Anthropic?
HELEN TONER, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR SECURITY AND EMERGING TECHNOLOGY: It's really been a series of extraordinary events.
So, the first thing to know here is Anthropic has been really forward leaning in its interest, in working with the Pentagon, and in setting its systems up so that the military can make use of them. And last summer was when they created their $200 million contract with this administration.
[21:45:00]
The second thing that's extraordinary is the two lines that have been drawn here. They seem to have come from the Pentagon coming back to Anthropic, and saying that they want to change the contract that was already signed. And those two sticking points were where Anthropic couldn't agree, which was on, Not using our systems for domestic mass surveillance or for autonomous weapons.
Another thing that's extraordinary is apparently, at least by Anthropic's account, neither of those use cases were actually on the table here. So they were saying that, these two red lines were actually not affecting the way that their systems were being used.
So the fact that, the Pentagon would be fully within its rights, of course, to drop the contract, to say, Look, we can't agree on these terms.
But as you said, the Secretary has instead gone full nuclear here, and is threatening really severe retaliation at this point.
COLLINS: Yes. And what do you make of the President's argument here, which was basically saying, We're going to decide the fate of our Country not some out-of-control, Radical Left AI company run by people who have no idea what the real World is all about.
I mean, is that what you think is playing out here, that they're trying to tell the Pentagon how to use -- some people might look at this and say, I don't know, those two guardrails sound pretty reasonable to me when I look at them.
TONER: I mean, there's an absolutely reasonable component here, which is, it makes sense that the Pentagon and the military want to have final say over what their systems can do.
And there's certainly also, I think, some scar tissue here from the first Trump administration in 2018, when Google famously didn't renew a contract to work on Project Maven, which was one of the very first AI contracts with the military.
The thing here is they're not just saying, This is unacceptable, and therefore we're going to drop this contract. They're saying something much more severe.
So, Secretary Hegseth, this evening said that their plan was to say that any company that works with the U.S. government in any capacity cannot do any commercial business with Anthropic in any capacity. So, that means that Amazon can't sell them chips. It means that large S&P 500 companies can't use Anthropic's models for their day-to-day work. It was really unprecedented threat against an American company.
COLLINS: I mean, if this threat holds up, and Anthropic is saying they're going to fight it in court, what would that mean for them?
TONER: It would essentially be the death of the company, if that is really what goes on.
COLLINS: Wow.
TONER: Because, again, they're not going to be able to buy the inputs that they need, most especially computational power, and they're not going to be able to sell their product to huge swaths of the American economy, which do business with the U.S. government. So, that certainly will be challenged in court. I have a hard time seeing it holding up. But if it does, then it's unrecoverable for them.
COLLINS: Well, and how does this work? Because then the CEO of OpenAI, Sam Altman, who, a lot of people know, he comes into this and he says, Actually, we're going to have the same red lines that Anthropic does.
I mean, is the Trump administration, do you think going to treat them the same way? Or what do you think that's going to look like?
TONER: It's been a very confusing development. This, as you said, this story has been rapidly moving this evening.
And OpenAI, their CEO came out earlier today, saying that that company had the same red lines and supported Anthropic in this dispute. But is now saying that they're working actively with the Pentagon to cement their own contract, which then would still hold to those same two red lines.
So, it's a little confusing, kind of, why would that be a feasible negotiation. If that was so blatantly unacceptable to the Pentagon from a different company. It may simply be that it's about which company they like better. But then, they're going to have a tough time in court if Anthropic does take it there.
COLLINS: A Pentagon official said that Elon's -- Elon Musk's Grok, which people who use X will be familiar with, that that is on board to replace Claude, and replace them using Anthropic's Claude. Is swapping the two as easy as it sounds?
TONER: In principle, it could be doable. So, these large language models are relatively interchangeable in many ways. But in practice, it's not that simple.
And as a former Defense -- or, sorry, as a current Defense official, said, earlier this week, a real problem for the Pentagon here is, is Anthropic is, quote, That good? Meaning, they are really, having -- using their systems, and they're performing extremely well. And actually, research that we've done at our center shows that Anthropic's models are being used actively by warfighters in critical ways.
COLLINS: Yes. It is just a crazy fight that is playing out. I mean, even, the people I've been talking to who are in it have been saying, what's happening inside is even crazier than we're seeing play out publicly.
Helen, it was great to have you to help us break it down. Thank you for joining us tonight.
TONER: Thanks very much.
COLLINS: And up next here for us. The President started this week with his fiery State of the Union address. We're going to take you behind the scenes for all the action that happened in Washington this week.
[21:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: The President's record-long State of the Union address, rising tensions with Iran, and the Clintons' testimony in front of the House Oversight Committee. Here's a look behind the scenes, this week, in Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TRUMP: The State of our Union is strong.
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
JD VANCE (R), U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: Kaitlan.
[21:55:00]
ON SCREEN TEXT: Monday, February 23.
TRUMP: We have a country that's now doing well. We have the greatest economy we've ever had. I'm making a speech tomorrow night, and it's going to be a long speech, because we have so much to talk about.
(APPLAUSE)
COLLINS: Fresh off being handed a major defeat from the Supreme Court. Donald Trump is making one thing very clear. Even when it comes to powers, the Constitution explicitly gives to Congress, he says that he has no plans to consult with the legislative branch that he'll address tomorrow night in prime time.
Are you going to the State of the Union tomorrow night?
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): Yes. I'm going to sit there.
He can spin it however he wants. But the Trump economy works great for billionaires, and it's not working for American families. And American families know that.
ON SCREEN TEXT: Tuesday, February 24. JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Kaitlan, what is going on inside the White House right now, these final hours before the President's speech?
COLLINS: Well, the President obviously looks over it. It's a long speech.
One thing though tonight that is a through line that actually will be important and will matter in the months to come, is how he tries to take back the narrative ahead of the midterm elections.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 07:59.
COLLINS: Last year, he had a lot of momentum.
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: My fellow Americans: Our nation is back bigger, better, richer, and stronger than ever before.
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: The roaring economy is roaring like never before. Our enemies are scared. Our military and police are stacked. And America is respected again.
These people are crazy. I'm telling you: they're crazy.
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: We're lucky we have a country with people like this. Democrats are destroying our country, but we've stopped it just in the nick of time, didn't we?
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
COLLINS: I noticed you're wearing something that a lot of your Democratic colleagues are wearing, which is this white button that says, Release the files.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): Yes.
COLLINS: The President's speech was record-long. He didn't make any mention of Jeffrey Epstein.
PELOSI: The fact that he didn't mention it shows his vulnerability, his exposure. He ignored the state of the nation. And the state of the nation is about our integrity as well.
ON SCREEN TEXT: Wednesday, February 25. VANCE: We're announcing today that we have decided to temporarily halt certain amounts of Medicaid funding that are going to the State of Minnesota to stop the fraud that's being perpetrated against the American taxpayer.
COLLINS: On the 60 days that Governor Walz has to respond, what exactly is the condition that he needs to meet?
VANCE: What we want to see from the Governor of Minnesota, is some affirmative steps to make sure that the people who are billing us for Medicaid Services are actually providing those Medicaid Services.
COLLINS: Can you explain to the American people why the United States would need to strike Iran, to stop them from getting a nuclear weapon, if the United States obliterated their enrichment program last summer.
VANCE: As the President has said repeatedly, he wants to address that problem diplomatically. But of course, the President has other options as well.
COLLINS: We have new CNN reporting tonight on the options that President Trump is considering.
The American people heard from the administration, not just last summer, but since then. How would you explain to them the urgency, and the administration's posture now, on Iran.
MULLIN: A nuclear Iran is bad for the entire world. It's bad for the economy.
If it takes us removing the Ayatollah from keeping the nuclear program from moving forward, then that's not off the table. But we would prefer diplomacy.
ON SCREEN TEXT: Thursday, February 26.
COLLINS: When New York City Mayor, Zohran Mamdani, showed up here at the White House today, he had a game plan in mind and props in hand.
Mayor Mamdani basically wanted to illustrate to the President what it looks like when the President invests in the biggest city in the country, and what happens when they don't.
For more than six hours today, House Republicans had their dream witness in front of them for a sworn deposition.
Former Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, had this assessment.
HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF STATE: I don't know how many times I had to say, I did not know Jeffrey Epstein.
COLLINS: Would you say that you learned anything helpful or significant to the committee's investigation, inside that room today?
GARCIA: We didn't learn a lot of new information.
House Republicans chose to immediately break the rules at the start of the committee, and not really focus on the investigation at hand.
Donald Trump has appeared in the Epstein files almost more than any other single person. It is time for Donald Trump to come before our committee, under oath, and testify.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: And before we leave you tonight. Neil Sedaka, the legendary singer, songwriter, with a boyish soprano so infectious that led to chart-topping hits across the 50s, the 60s, and the 70s, has died. The Brooklyn-born son of a Jewish taxi driver was 86-years-old.
And while his death leaves behind scores of mourning family and fans, classics like this are going to live on forever.
[22:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(NEIL SEDAKA PERFORMS "LAUGHTER IN THE RAIN")
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Tonight, our thoughts are with Neil Sedaka's family, and his nephew, CNN's own Harry Enten. May his memory be a blessing.
Thank you for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
