Return to Transcripts main page
The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump Fires Pam Bondi As Attorney General; Sources: U.S. Intel Assesses That Iran Still Maintains Significant Missile Launching And Drone Capabilities; TMZ Spotlights Lawmakers On Vacation As DHS Remains Unfunded. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired April 02, 2026 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TIGER WOODS, AMERICAN PROFESSIONAL GOLFER: --say again?
DEPUTY: I just keep you down here with us, please.
WOODS: Yes, I was just talking to the President.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: In case you didn't hear that, he said, Yes, I was just talking to the President.
CNN has reached out to the White House about whether that was actually the President on the other end of the line. We are still waiting for their answer.
That is all for us tonight. I'll see you back here tomorrow at 07:00 a.m. for "CNN NEWS CENTRAL."
"THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Just 24 hours ago, Pam Bondi was in the room as her boss, the President, addressed the nation. Tonight, she's out of the job, the second Cabinet Secretary to be ousted in a month.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Tonight, in what is the second Cabinet shakeup in just four weeks, Pam Bondi is out as Attorney General. President Trump confirmed her firing in a Truth Social post, praising her as a great American patriot and a loyal friend, but making clear that she is out of his administration, and saying that, quote, "She will be transitioning to a much needed and important new job in the private sector, to be announced at a date in the near future."
Her deputy and the President's former personal attorney, Todd Blanche, will now lead the Justice Department in an acting capacity for the time being.
Inside the West Wing tonight, our sources say this was a long time coming for several reasons.
First, the President has been frustrated over Bondi's handling of the Jeffrey Epstein files, which has become a huge weak point for the administration, even among Republicans.
Her first offense came only days into her job, in this now infamous appearance on Fox News.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN ROBERTS, FOX NEWS CHANNEL HOST: The DOJ may be releasing the list of Jeffrey Epstein's clients? Will that really happen?
PAM BONDI, FORMER UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL: It's sitting on my desk right now to review.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Except it wasn't.
The DOJ later said that no such list actually exists, and Bondi had to clarify that she was referring to all the paperwork that is related to Jeffrey Epstein.
Then, days later, Bondi invited right-wing influencers to the White House and gave them binders that you can see here, labeled Epstein Files Phase One, which they proudly touted outside of the front door of the West Wing. But that also turned out to be a flop. Those binders were later described as binders full of nothingness by Trump's own Chief of Staff, someone who is a key Bondi ally.
President Trump had also fumed over what he saw as Bondi's failure to go after enough of his political enemies. That frustration spilled out in public, last September, when Trump accidentally posted a message that was addressed to Pam, on Truth Social, and what we later reported was meant to be a private note. He complained about nothing being done, and pushed Bondi to secure more indictments.
Based on our reporting, it seems that Bondi saw the writing on the wall in recent days. Just this week, she actually summoned the top prosecutor in Miami, to Washington, to talk about her belief that the Justice Department's investigation into the former CIA Director, John Brennan, was being slow-walked. Some inside the Justice Department saw that as an effort to show that she was still pursuing the President's priorities and his political opponents.
But she also used her recent appearances, on Capitol Hill, to heap so much praise on the President and his administration, it prompted laughter from some of the lawmakers who were questioning her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BONDI: Have you apologized to President Trump, all of you who participated in those impeachment hearings against Donald Trump?
That's what we should be focused on, all the great work that this President has done.
And none of them, none of them asked Merrick Garland, over the last four years, one word about Jeffrey Epstein. How ironic is that? You know why? Because Donald Trump -- the Dow -- the Dow right now is over -- the Dow is over 50,000 -- I don't know why you're laughing. You're a great stock trader, as I hear Raskin.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: None of it was enough to appease her boss, making Bondi, Trump's shortest serving Attorney General by at least seven months. Even Jeff Sessions was actually the Attorney General for 21 months in his first term.
Now, this not only leaves the President with a huge vacancy in his Cabinet. It also comes, as he's trying to find an exit plan for his war with Iran, dealing with skyrocketing gas prices, sinking approval ratings, and a volatile stock market where the Dow has not been above 50,000 since February.
My lead sources on this tonight are:
CNN's Senior White House correspondent, Kristin Holmes.
Our Senior Justice Correspondent, Evan Perez.
And former Justice Department prosecutor, Elie Honig.
And former Florida prosecutor, who knows Pam Bondi, Dave Aronberg.
It's great to have you all here.
[21:05:00]
Kristen, obviously, a lot's happened in the last 24 hours with Pam Bondi. They were just together yesterday, in the President's motorcade, going to the Supreme Court. Now, a day later, she's back in Florida and out of a job.
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right. And the lead up to this, as you mentioned, had been coming for quite some time. However, it really came to a head this week. Back in January.
There was a lot of speculation. But President Trump had cooled it until Monday, when he started calling allies, pretty incessantly, saying that he was ready to replace her, floating names to them.
And then we know about this meeting that happened yesterday, or conversation, between Pam Bondi and President Trump, where he basically said that, You're going to be replaced, and floated some options as potential work down the road for the administration. We were told at one point he said, Maybe you could have a judgeship.
And then, he essentially fired her in the next 12 hours. And the reason why this was so notable was that even leading up to the firing, the people closest to him were telling me, We're not sure he's going to do it.
EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Right.
HOLMES: He's talked about this a lot. This has been something, you know, he said a lot of negative stuff about her. But he says a lot of negative stuff about everyone, and he's kept everybody around. It really was a snap decision that he decided just to go with it. And it shows you where we are now in President Trump's tenure.
COLLINS: And to this side -- notion that she was not doing what the President wanted. I mean, there is literally a poster, a giant poster of the President's face outside the Justice Department.
PEREZ: Right.
COLLINS: Which kind of symbolizes that there is no level of independence between the DOJ and the West Wing.
How are people inside the DOJ feeling tonight?
PEREZ: Well, the thing is, they thought this was going to happen last year, last summer. You remember very, very clearly that Laura Loomer and some of the other influencers, people who have Trump's ear, were very close to getting her fired. And Susie Wiles, the Chief of Staff managed to save her then. And so, everyone at DOJ has been anticipating that this might happen at some point.
To Kristen's point. I think a lot of folks are kind of floored at how quickly this turned, given the number of times we've heard this. I mean, we've all, at this table, have heard this, including in January, when we thought it might happen. And so, the fact that it happened now, I think, has kind of surprised people, because they thought maybe she had escaped all of this.
But the central sin here that she's never been able to escape from, and the shadow that she finally, you know, finally, caught up to her, is that, that thing you showed at the beginning there, back in February of last year, where she said that there were -- the Epstein client list was on her desk, and had that -- orchestrated that entire event at the White House.
She basically created something that wasn't there before, right? There was no constituency. There was nobody begging for the Epstein files, last February, February of 2025. She did this. She did this to herself, and she did this to the President. And so, that's the reason why we are where we are.
COLLINS: Yes.
And Dave Aronberg, I mean, you obviously know Pam Bondi personally. You were on the show before and vouched for her at her confirmation hearing even. What do you make of what's happened to her tonight, now that she's the shortest living A.G. under Trump, which is saying something.
DAVE ARONBERG, FORMER STATE ATTORNEY, PALM BEACH COUNTY, FL, TESTIFIED AT PAM BONDI'S CONFIRMATION HEARING: Kaitlan, Donald Trump wanted a Roy Cohn. He said so publicly. And Pam Bondi was never going to be Roy Cohn.
Donald Trump wants to push a button and have his enemies incarcerated. But prosecutors, although they have a lot of power, the power is not absolute. There are grand jurors you got to get through. There are judges, trial jurors, rules of evidence, rules of law.
And so, Donald Trump wants an attorney general who will do his bidding and essentially blow the place up. And he had one in Matt Gaetz, but Matt Gaetz can't get confirmed by the U.S. Senate. In fact, the only attorney general that would really make Trump happy would be an attorney general who can never get confirmed by the U.S. Senate. So, I don't know who's going to replace her, but Trump is going to be unhappy whoever he appoints as his top law enforcement officer.
COLLINS: Yes, I mean, Elie, to Evan's point, about the mishandling of the Epstein files. Republicans are celebrating Pam Bondi's firing. Not all of them. But Nancy Mace, who was one of those votes to initially get the Epstein files bill over the line, she says that she still wants Pam Bondi to come testify, in about two weeks from now, for her deposition in the Epstein case. I mean, my first question today was whether or not that still holds if she's no longer the A.G.
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NY: Sure it holds, Kaitlan, because a subpoena goes to a witness. A witness is someone with information. And Pam Bondi has the exact same information now, as she did 14 hours ago when she was still A.G.
To the bigger point here. The mishandling of the Epstein files, I think, was the most obvious grievous cause of Pam Bondi's dismissal. But let's not let that overshadow the damage that she did to DOJ, by giving away its credibility, and its political independence.
She didn't get fired because she did the right thing, and stood up to Donald Trump, and said, I'm not going to weaponize this department. She got fired because she didn't do it well enough, but she sure as heck tried.
[21:10:00]
And when I was a first-year prosecutor, first day, I was given the standard speech that you're all given at DOJ, which essentially says, All this department has is its credibility and its independence. It takes years to build it up, but we give it away really quickly. Don't be the one who screws it up.
Pam Bondi was the one who screwed that up, and it's going to take years or decades for DOJ to recover.
COLLINS: Yes. I mean, I saw allies of hers, arguing she restored the integrity at the DOJ with wiping all those people out today, and in her tenure.
Kristen, the other thing that stood out to me, though, is in the President's post, and confirming our reporting, that she was ousted, he didn't announce a replacement, like he did with Kristi Noem. He said that it was Markwayne Mullin. That did not happen in this situation.
HOLMES: No, it didn't. I think that was very telling that he was just done with her at this point. I mean, that and the fact that there's no job for her in the administration, meaning there's no soft landing for her.
But when it comes to him not having a replacement. We do know that the Deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanche, is going to be stepping in as Acting, while President Trump kind of mulls who he's going to choose for this role, and that there are a number of people that are up for it, one of them being Lee Zeldin, who is currently running the EPA.
But there are other names in there. Jeanine Pirro has been floated. And I was told, actually, just moments ago that Republicans are already kind of starting to form factions and pitch different candidates, to President Trump and to President Trump's orbit. So, it's likely to be a blood bath.
I mean, the thing that is so fascinating about the timing of this is that confirmation battle that is likely to come with anyone President Trump chooses, particularly with the midterms. There had almost been an edict around the White House that they were not going to get rid of people. But now they're holding on to this idea that they might have to actually replace people now so they can get them confirmed.
COLLINS: Yes, and the President seems to not have that. He was risk- averse before. He didn't want to fire anyone. That seems, after Kristi Noem, to have gone out the window, Evan. I mean, it does raise questions about what would the DOJ is going to look like next.
PEREZ: Right. And the cautionary tale here is, you know, talking to people close to Pam Bondi, for instance, one of the things I keep hearing is that, where is he going to find someone as pliant, someone who is willing to do all of his bidding, because that who -- that is who Pam Bondi was, or is. She basically did everything that he wanted.
Obviously, she's not in control of the juries, as Elie points out, she's not in control of judges. But she did everything that she could to carry out his retribution agenda. It's not her fault that it didn't go that way. Some of it is just the facts aren't there. Some of it is the President and the White House's own doing of how they've screwed up some of these cases.
So, the question is, where is the President going to find someone that could fit this mold, someone who is going to do everything he wants, someone who's going to carry out all this stuff that he wants, and who's not going to have an independent thought, right? And I'm not sure Lee Zeldin is that person. I'm not sure Trey Gowdy is that person. Mike Lee, all of the names that have been out there. I am not sure--
COLLINS: Yes.
PEREZ: --that person exists that Donald Trump wants.
COLLINS: Well, Elie, right now, that person who is running DOJ, is Todd Blanche, who as we noted, was his personal attorney before Trump won the presidency.
He was actually on Fox tonight and was asked about what the President wants to see at his DOJ.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSE WATTERS, FOX NEWS CHANNEL HOST: Are you the guy that's going to be able to get that done?
TODD BLANCHE, ACTING U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: Look, I think the President is frustrated, everybody is frustrated, because what we -- what we saw happen for the past four years, is unforgivable and can never happen again.
And so, certainly, I don't mind the frustration. I appreciate the frustration, because we do have to make sure that what happened for four years never happens again, and we don't talk about investigations.
But I can tell you that the Department of Justice is working hard every day. It was working hard yesterday, and we're going to keep on working hard tomorrow. And I'm honored that President Trump has asked me to step in as Acting, and also much appreciative for what Pam Bondi did for the past year.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean, Elie, there's real questions about what could come next. Not just Jerome Powell, Tish James. Evan and Co. reported on Cassidy Hutchinson maybe being a name that they'd go after. What do you expect?
HONIG: Well, so the Todd Blanche, who I knew, since we were at the SDNY together, from 2005 until 2025? He would have been a great attorney general, because he understood that you don't bring ridiculous cases where there's no evidence, just to make good on a political vendetta.
But the Todd Blanche we've seen in office the last year or so, since he's Deputy A.G., is, I just have to say, he's just completely different than the person I was trained with.
Now, he can try all he wants. Maybe he's a better lawyer than Pam Bondi, I don't know. But he's not going to have any more success if the facts just aren't there.
[21:15:00]
What you just heard Todd Blanche say, on that Fox news clip, where he said, Oh, the things that happened in the last four years can't be forgiven? That's code. I want people to understand, that's code. Because the belief is Donald Trump was mistreated by prosecutors. And to some extent, I believe he was. But they use that now as an excuse to go on this all-out retribution campaign.
And you know what? They've lost every single one of these cases that they've brought so far. They've been rejected by judges and grand juries. And if they don't have the evidence? Not Todd Blanche, not Archibald Cox, not Eliot Ness, can generate it out of thin air.
COLLINS: Dave, what do you think happens next to Pam Bondi? What do you think is next for her?
ARONBERG: I think she'll go in the private sector, and I think that perhaps she goes into lobbying or practices law. She never wanted to run for office again. She could have, I think, been a leading candidate for Governor in Florida, but decided not to do that. She didn't want to be Attorney General. But then when Matt Gaetz fell apart, Donald Trump called her up.
So, it's interesting, because she has enemies on the Democratic side and in MAGA who blame her for Epstein. One thing about that is that there's nothing that Pam Bondi did on Epstein that wasn't directed by 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. And so, she's getting the blame for it. But meanwhile, the person who took the lead on Epstein, Todd Blanche, is still there and is now the acting U.S. Attorney General.
COLLINS: Yes, that's a good point, especially with Ghislaine Maxwell's prison transfer.
Dave. Elie. Evan. Kristen. Great to have all of you here tonight on this breaking news.
We also have new CNN exclusive reporting tonight, when it comes to the war with Iran. My colleagues, Haley Britzky, Natasha Bertrand, Jim Sciutto, and Tal Shalev, are reporting U.S. intel has actually assessed that Iran maintains significant missile launching capability, despite the daily pounding that we've seen from the United States and Israeli air strikes.
And sources familiar with the intelligence say that roughly half of Iran's missile launchers are still intact tonight. Thousands of drones are also still in its arsenal. And one source told CNN that Iran is still capable of, quote, Wreaking havoc throughout the entire region. We've certainly seen that playing out.
We're getting reaction to that new reporting tonight, from a former top intelligence official, who resigned, the last time President Trump was in office.
Plus, his pressure on allies to help out with the Strait of Hormuz. What do two top Senate Republican and Democrat sources say, with their take from South Korea?
Also, have you noticed TMZ is all over D.C.? Why are they tracking lawmakers? We're going to talk to TMZ ourselves.
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COLLINS: Tonight, President Trump says there is quote, much More to follow, after he shared new video of today's U.S.-Israeli air strike on a key bridge just outside of Tehran. Iranian state media says at least eight people were killed as a result of this and at least 95 others injured.
The attack comes, after the President threatened to destroy critical Iranian infrastructure, if a deal was not reached with Iran. And then last night, described the weeks ahead for Iran this way.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We are going to hit them extremely hard over the next two to three weeks. We're going to bring them back to the Stone Ages, where they belong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: But what remains uncertain still tonight is the future of the Strait of Hormuz, and any solution to reopening that crucial passageway for 20 percent of the world's oil, which is something that the President is recently stating is not America's problem.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Let France do it. They get a lot of oil from the Strait. Let the European countries do it. Let South Korea, who was not helpful to us, by the way, let South Korea -- you know, we only have 45,000 soldiers in harm's way over there, right next to a nuclear force. Let South Korea do it. Let Japan do it. They get 90 percent of their oil from the Strait. Let -- let China do it. Let them all do it. What the hell are we doing it for?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Joining me tonight for a special interview from Seoul, South Korea, as part of a bipartisan visit to key allies across the Indo- Pacific, is Republican senator, Thom Tillis of North Carolina; and Democratic senator, Jeanne Shaheen of New Hampshire.
And we've had each of you on the show. It's great to have both of you together.
And Senator Shaheen, just can I ask you, given you're over there, you've been speaking with officials on the ground. And when you hear the President say, it is easy, he believes for places like South Korea to take back the Strait of Hormuz. Is that something that they agree with on the ground?
SEN. JEANNE SHAHEEN (D-NH): Well, as you point out, this is a bipartisan congressional delegation. We're here visiting Taiwan, Japan and South Korea, three of our strongest and best allies in the Indo- Pacific region. It's very important for us to be here at this time. There is concern here about the impact of the Iran war and what it means for their energy use. They're seeing energy costs go up. They're concerned about access to energy. And they have been some of our strongest allies. But unfortunately, this war started as the result of our actions with Israel, and we did not consult these allies. So, they are interested in working with us. But I think the idea that they're going to open the Straits is not going to happen.
COLLINS: Yes, we heard the French president weighing in on that today, talking about how difficult it would be to do it by force.
Senator Tillis, what have your biggest takeaways been from this trip, overall so far?
SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): Well, number one, the populations of Taiwan, Japan and Seoul are solidly pro-American, and they're pro-American alliance. They understand the threat that China poses to the -- to the region, and to the United States and, really, to the world. They are looking for every opportunity to work with us. And they are experiencing some of the effects of the -- of the engagement in Iran.
[21:25:00]
And I would -- I agree that ultimately, the countries that rely so much on the Strait of Hormuz have to help secure it. But it's very difficult to ask them to do that when you've just made an announcement that you're going to intensify operations for the next three weeks.
So, I would ask the administration to get with the leaders of these other countries and figure out what that transition looks like, so that -- we're hearing here. We actually are in Seoul right now. Yesterday, the President presented to their legislature an emergency plan to deal with some of the economic impacts that the closing of the Strait of Hormuz has caused.
So, we owe them, our allies a, I think, an investment, and how we actually transition to that becoming open again, and we've got to be a part of it. We simply can't say, it's their problem. It's founded on an event that we rightfully made, I think going into Iran was a good decision, but we also have to understand that it has an effect on our allies, and we owe it to them to sort it out.
COLLINS: Senator Shaheen, do you agree that this war can't end without figuring out who's in control of the Strait of Hormuz first?
SHAHEEN: I do. I think, unfortunately, what we've seen as the result of the war -- and Senator Tillis and I think, are agreed that taking out the Ayatollah, nobody is going to cry about that. And the terrorism that Iran has fostered across the Middle East and the world really is something that needs to be addressed.
But the question is, what's the endgame? What's the strategy for ending this? And how do we ensure that we're working together with our allies and partners instead of attacking them?
One of the things that has been impressive about this trip is the extent to which the countries that we visited are stepping up, working with us militarily, as Thom says, to combat the threat from China in the region and, really, across the world. They are our biggest competitor, both economically and militarily.
And in order to be successful, we've got to work with our allies. Three of the strongest allies in the region are the countries that we visited, and they want to work with us, but they want to do it together.
COLLINS: Well, and speaking of alliances. I mean, the two of you are co-chairs of the Senate NATO Observer Group. And the President has been criticizing NATO, saying that because they didn't come to the U.S.' help when he asked for it, whether it's the Strait of Hormuz, or other matters with the Iran war, he's threatening openly to withdraw from NATO.
And Senator Shaheen, I think some people would ask, what is Congress going to do if the President follows through on that threat?
SHAHEEN: Well, Congress passed a law in the first Trump administration, when the President was talking about withdrawing from NATO, that said he can't do that without support from Congress.
There is strong bipartisan support in Congress for NATO. It's been the most successful military alliance in modern history. It has -- when we were attacked, after 9/11, it was NATO countries who came to our defense in Afghanistan, who died alongside American service members.
And NATO has stepped up in terms of their own defense, at the President's request, by the way. They are working on up to 5 percent of GDP on defense spending. They are working together, supporting Ukraine against this horrible war that Russia has inflicted on them.
And I don't believe there is any support in Congress, or in the American public, for the United States to withdraw.
COLLINS: Well, and Senator Tillis, obviously, Secretary of State Rubio, when he was your colleague in the Senate, he spearheaded that bill, that a president can't unilaterally withdraw from NATO.
TILLIS: Yes.
COLLINS: He's got to have Congress' support.
TILLIS: Yes--
COLLINS: He said that he thinks that NATO does need to be reexamined, though, in light of everything that's happened. Do you agree with that?
TILLIS: Well, I think we can always look at ways to modernize the Alliance, make it more resilient, reacting more to the circumstances of today, when it was founded or formed 75 years ago. The world is very different. But fundamental to it is the investment in our mutual defense, our interoperability.
Look, China can match up against a lot of our platforms, defensive and offensive platforms. What they have no prayer of ever matching up against is the strength of our alliances. When we get reports back, when we do joint military exercises, when we're working together in the INDOPACOM Area of Responsibility in Europe, the thing that worries Putin, the thing that worries the mullahs, the thing that worries Xi Jinping, is the exquisite capabilities that our alliances bring.
And the language in the NDAA in 2024 that was actually supported by then-Senator Rubio, is unambiguous. It's the Senate's and the Congress' role to determine whether or not we withdraw from the Alliance, and that is with a 67-vote threshold. Congress supports the Alliance, and it will be -- it will be foundational to our national security, I think, for the history of our nation.
[21:30:00]
SHAHEEN: And look, the only people who benefit from the President's comments about withdrawing from NATO are Vladimir Putin, and Xi Jinping, and our adversaries, because anything that looks like it's splitting the alliance is beneficial to them.
COLLINS: And can I ask the two of you, while you're on this major trip, there's been news here in Washington. And Senator Tillis, Senator Shaheen, you're both members of the body that votes to confirm the President's Cabinet.
Senator Tillis, do you think the President made the right decision to fire Pam Bondi today?
TILLIS: I'm not really sure. We saw the reports coming in late yesterday and overnight. I'm not really sure what the basis for it was. We'll be seeing potentially another nominee coming before the Judiciary Committee.
A little bit too early for me to understand the rationale behind it. I had a good relationship with General Bondi. I hear some of the reports may be a frustration from the President on pursuing certain cases. You know my position. I have a problem with some of the cases they have pursued, like what I think is the bogus case against Chair Powell.
So, if it's founded in that sort of frustration, I'd have to respectfully disagree with the President. If there are other facts related to other matters that I haven't seen reported, I'll reserve judgment.
COLLINS: And Senator Tillis just, if there is a new nominee? I mean, there's word he might put someone who's already Senate-confirmed. But if it is a new nominee, you do have your vow that you're not voting for people, if that investigation into Chair Powell continues. Is that something that you'd want to hear from the new nominee, that they would drop that investigation?
TILLIS: Well, there's two pieces. One is the investigation of Jerome Powell. There will not be another Fed Chair confirmed until that's disposed of, or until, for the first time, since the allegations were made public, they could actually prove there's even a scintilla of criminal activity. We have seven Republican members of the Banking committee, saying there wasn't. Now, separate matter, for me, the threshold for somebody following Pam Bondi ends the moment I hear they said one thing that excused the events of January the 6th. I've been very clear on that.
So, I hope whoever they have in mind to follow General Bondi was very clear-eyed on my position on January the 6th. That's why I didn't support two other nominees who were coming through Judiciary Committee, and I won't support any nominee who thought that any element of January 6th was excused.
COLLINS: And Senator Shaheen. I mean, obviously Senator Tillis is right. Part of that reporting that we heard from sources was the President was frustrated with the Attorney General for not going after enough of his political opponents. I mean, arguably, she did go after several of the people he wanted prosecuted. They tried to indict several of them. What's your view of her ouster?
SHAHEEN: Well, first of all, I agree with Thom, on his two points around Jerome Powell and January 6th. I think it's very important that we acknowledge what happened on January 6th, and that we not prosecute anybody for political reasons. And I think I disagree with the President in saying that he's dismissing Pam Bondi because she's not prosecuting his opponents.
But I think one of the things that has gotten her into trouble, and I didn't vote for, has been how she's handled the Epstein files, because that has been a real issue of public concern.
And frankly, she said she had all the files, she was going to release them, and she released them in pieces, with major names and issues redacted from them, and no real commitment to go after the people who were responsible for sexually assaulting dozens, probably hundreds, of girls. And that's -- the public is just not going to accept that.
COLLINS: Yes.
Senator Jeanne Shaheen. And Senator Thom Tillis. Thank you both for being on for a bipartisan interview, and for joining us from Seoul. We always appreciate your time. But it's nice to have the two of you together. So, thank you.
TILLIS: Thank you, Kaitlan.
SHAHEEN: Thank you.
COLLINS: And up next. Our exclusive reporting here at CNN about how many missile launchers Iran still has after a month of U.S.-Israeli strikes. It might surprise you. We'll get the perspective from the top intelligence official during the President's first term. Her take, right after this.
[21:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We have some breaking news for you tonight with a CNN exclusive report, as sources are telling us here tonight that recent U.S. intelligence assessments found roughly half of Iran's missile launchers are still intact, and that thousands of one-way attack Drones are still in Iran's arsenal tonight. That's despite daily U.S. and Israeli air strikes that we've seen against Iranian military targets for the past five weeks.
And I should note, this assessment that my colleagues are reporting on tonight might include launchers that are currently inaccessible, such as those that are buried by strikes or not just completely destroyed.
The intelligence, though, does offer a more nuanced picture that we're getting of Iran's capabilities that they still have right now, than what we have heard from the White House since the beginning of this war.
Joining me tonight is Sue Gordon, who served as the Principal Deputy Director of National Intelligence during President Trump's first administration.
And it's great to have you on, just given your expertise.
First, can I just get your take on, on what CNN is reporting, if Iran does still have this much in its capabilities tonight?
[21:40:00]
SUE GORDON, FORMER PRINCIPAL DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE UNDER PRES. TRUMP: Yes, so one, I have no current access to that intelligence, so I'll just give you kind of a perspective on how I see it. And I will say, I don't like unauthorized disclosures of classified information in general, but let's talk about it.
I don't think it's a surprising assessment, and I don't think it's surprising that it differs from what the war fighter would say. It is always a tension between the intelligence community and kind of their steely-eyed look at the best evidence that they see, and the war fighter's job which is to win.
That tension has been there. It was there during Afghanistan. It was there during the first Gulf War. So, the fact that there is this tension between an assessment from intelligence that isn't as rosy as a war fighter who believes that they are a minute away from victory.
I don't think it's also surprising that Iran would have capabilities that evaded our aggression. They certainly know a bit of our playbook. The idea of mobile launchers using tunnels, using buried, protected by the Earth, capabilities, isn't surprising at all. So, I don't think it's surprising.
I think what worries me is the signal that why is someone releasing it now? Was this not brought up in the discussion about what the likely outcome is going to be when we planned our assault? So, don't be surprised at the difference. It is always the way intelligence and operations are. But it does raise questions about the rosiness of the idea that we're seconds away from sure victory from which we can just walk away. COLLINS: Yes, and the Pentagon put out a statement tonight, basically touting what they have hit so far. Obviously, there's been a lot of that.
GORDON: Yes.
COLLINS: And we've heard it, in these briefings that we get from Secretary Hegseth and from General Caine. Certainly, they've hit a lot of targets. So, some people might be surprised by this. But it speaks to what's still left there.
What you just mentioned there, you know, that makes me think of the President's timeline from last night.
GORDON: Right.
COLLINS: If this reporting is accurate, and they have this many weapons remaining, what does that mean for this two-to-three-week timeline?
GORDON: Yes, so it depends on what the objective is, correct? I think that's always been the problem is, the U.S., of course, has enormous power. We do, and we're demonstrating it every day. The question for leadership is not whether you can act, but what that actually is going to lead to, and what the outcome you expect.
I think the idea that somehow magically, the Strait of Hormuz is going to become passable, naturally, especially if these weapons still exist, is just myopic at best and purposely naive, the other.
So, I think it raises real questions about how we leave this scenario. I know there are a lot of people that say, Let's just get out, and we will have done our job, and it's over to somebody else to fix it. If we walk away now with these weapons, if the assessment is correct, still intact? We have left the region in a decidedly worse place. Right? Our Gulf allies are incredibly vulnerable. The idea that our European and Indo-Pacific allies would come in and somehow magically open up the Strait?
So, I think what it does is it says this idea that we're minutes away from being able to walk away and it's all going to be OK, was always too rosy, this puts it in really fine relief.
And for your audience, Kaitlan?
COLLINS: Yes.
GORDON: What they give you with the numbers is they give you the numerator of the things that we have destroyed. They never give you the denominator. They've destroyed X of how many? And I think what this intelligence, again, if it is correct, says--
COLLINS: Yes.
GORDON: --that Iran was keeping things in reserve.
COLLINS: That's a good point in terms of what we've heard. If this is surprising.
Can I ask you. Obviously, you're--
GORDON: Sure.
COLLINS: --as an intelligence official, you give the President the assessment of what it is.
If this is accurate, and this is what the President is getting briefed on. I mean, what would you say to him, how would you put it to him, given what he's also considering and the exit and how that works?
GORDON: I would say the thing that I'm saying to you, and that is, you have to be really clear about your purpose and your end state. There are lots of different options you can choose. We have fewer now than we did at the beginning, notwithstanding the fact that we have certainly degraded a malign regime, we have certainly destabilized it.
[21:45:00]
But the idea that an air and maritime assault would overthrow a regime, or leave a nation of that heft without action still to play, is just is not realistic. So, my question would be, Here's the situation on the ground, here's what we assess. What are we going to do now?
And the other thing I'd just say is, people don't intend to escalate. They tend to escalate because they will think it will lead to deterrence. And so, I think that's one of the sound tracks you're hearing by both the President and by Iran, is they're doing this thing of, Can I make a threat? Can I escalate? And where we've left ourselves is words won't be enough to achieve the outcomes--
COLLINS: Yes.
GORDON: --that we probably require.
COLLINS: Sue Gordon, we will see what they do with this intelligence. Thank you for joining us tonight.
GORDON: You're welcome.
COLLINS: It's so great to have your voice here on THE SOURCE.
GORDON: You're welcome.
COLLINS: Coming up for us here. Britney Spears, Brad Pitt, now Senator Lindsey Graham. TMZ has a huge new interest in lawmakers. My source, TMZ's Harvey Levin, will join me right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:50:00]
COLLINS: Tonight, President Trump says he will soon sign an order to pay all the employees at the Department of Homeland Security, as the partial shutdown is now nearing the 50-day mark.
The President said that Republicans are also unified on their latest plan to fund the Department of Homeland Security.
But a faction of House Republicans told their leaders, in what we were told was a fiery phone call, that they're not going to support a funding bill that leaves out ICE and Border Patrol. That means the House Speaker, Mike Johnson, is going to have to rely on Democrats to get it to the President's desk. And right now, there is no sign that lawmakers will be returning from their two-week break early.
We know that in part because TMZ is now tracking them far from Washington. It's an outlet that usually updates us on Rihanna or Tom Cruise's whereabouts. But they spotted Senator Cory Booker dining at a swanky hotel in L.A. this week. They showed several lawmakers touring a Castle in Scotland. And also, TMZ was the outlet that revealed Senator Lindsey Graham had a weekend trip to Disney World.
TMZ founder, Harvey Levin, joins me now.
And Harvey, I know, obviously you guys have focused on politics before. But I think there is a new -- I mean, certainly I've been talking to a lot of people in Washington about it. Given your scoops, typically focus on Lindsay Lohan over Lindsey Graham, what inspired this?
HARVEY LEVIN, FOUNDER AND EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, TMZ: Well, I mean, you're to partly blame for this, Kaitlan. I watch your show. I do. I watch your show. And for two months, I heard Democrats blaming Republicans, and Republicans blaming Democrats. And the reality is, institutionally, they are all at fault. That the job of Congress is to compromise.
We had a TSA agent on last week, who is not only struggling to pay rent and make her car payment, but she is suffering physically, and her mental health is deteriorating. And it was just enraging to hear this, as these lawmakers were just bailing.
And we thought, you know, put the word out to people. If you see a member of Congress out and about, vacationing at Disney World, or Vegas, or Turks and Caicos, Scotland? We've seen it all. Send us the pictures. Because I think you need to juxtapose that against a lot of federal workers who are in food lines right now and struggling to survive.
COLLINS: What's the reaction been like? I mean, have any lawmakers been mad at you? Or are you being flooded with pictures from people who are inspired by seeing Lindsey Graham holding the bubble wand at Disney World?
LEVIN: Flooded with pictures, for sure.
I will tell you this, that we have had people on Capitol Hill telling us where other lawmakers are. And even when they were in a group, one member would let us know, Hey, it's not just me, it's him, him and her. And so, we've seen that. We've seen people on the Hill saying, This is outrageous, people who work there, saying, It's outrageous.
We've had -- we've had members of Congress on, whose pictures we've put up, and they've said, We get it and we understand. And a lot of them say, We want to come back, but they can't.
COLLINS: One of them you posted was Jared Moskowitz, Democrat from Florida. He was at his son's baseball game, I believe it was -- basketball game. TMZ shared an image of him. One was -- our question was, who took this picture? Because they're quite close to him.
But in the pushback from people who were saying, Oh, we're with our families, or, We're on a CODEL in Europe, what do you make of that explanation from them?
LEVIN: Well, if there are kids, we blur the kids out. We're not going to do that.
But look, I mean, when Gavin Newsom ended up at The French Laundry during COVID, we did that story, and so did you, and it was an appropriate story to do, and it has to do with people who were at places they shouldn't be.
And it's our view, and people are free to disagree with it, that the place they should be is Washington, D.C., when they have not funded the government, and there are thousands of people who are suffering as a result, and they simply bail. And it just seems outrageous.
And I will tell you, Kaitlan, that one of the things that surprised me a little bit is just how insular Washington has become, that some of these members of Congress seem genuinely shocked at the public outrage over this. But the public outrage has been there for a long time, they're just not hearing it.
COLLINS: Yes. Well, they're hearing it now, in part because of you.
Harvey, great to have you on tonight. Thank you for joining us.
LEVIN: Good being here.
COLLINS: And up next here for us. Speaking of celebrities. Tiger Woods was on the phone with who, moments before he got that DUI arrest in Florida?
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Newly-released footage shows Tiger Woods telling Sheriff deputies that he was talking to, who he was talking to, I should say, on his phone, just moments before his arrest for his alleged DUI.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WOODS: Say again? DEPUTY: I just keep you down here with us, please.
WOODS: Yes, I was just talking to the President.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I was just talking to the President.
That was from bodycam video of Tiger Woods, after his rollover crash, last week in Florida. We're waiting to hear from the White House if Woods was actually on the phone with the President. Of course, the two men have been friends for years. The President put out a statement after.
[22:00:00]
And authorities say that Tiger Woods had bloodshot glassy eyes and a constant hiccup, when he was arrested. He told Deputies that he had taken a few prescription drugs for his chronic pain, noting that he had had more than two dozen surgeries over the years. He's pleaded not guilty to those DUI charges. And right now, his license has been suspended.
We'll keep you updated on that.
Thanks so much for joining us here tonight on THE SOURCE.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
