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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
U.S. Searching For Crew Member After Iran Downs F-15; Trump: U.S. Can Open Strait Of Hormuz "With A Little More Time"; Oscar- Nominated Film Uses Prisoners' Videos To Expose Abuses. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired April 03, 2026 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: And I'm so excited to see the full documentary. We've been talking about it all week.
Bill Weir.
"THE WHOLE STORY," "50 Years of Apple" airs Sunday at 10:00 p.m. on CNN, and you can watch on the CNN app right on your phone if you want to.
And that is all for us tonight. I hope you have a happy holiday weekend. I will see you back here Monday morning at 7 o'clock for "CNN NEWS CENTRAL."
In the meantime, there is a lot of news tonight. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts right now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Tonight, the urgent search for American airman in Iran, after not one but two, U.S. warplanes were shot down today.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
And as we come on the air tonight, we're following breaking news as a dangerous search and rescue mission is underway right now, in Iran, for the second crew member of a downed American fighter jet.
Sources say the F-15E was shot down in Iranian airspace today, making it the first American plane downed by enemy forces in this five-week war. We're told the pilot has been rescued, and is receiving medical attention tonight. But right now, U.S. forces are still searching for the only other crew member who was on board, in what military experts say is an extremely high risk mission in enemy territory.
Chilling new video, just into CNN, and is geolocated by our team, appears to show Black Hawk search helicopters being shot at by Iranian police officers on the ground. The person who is recording this video is cheering, as the officers opened fire.
And tonight, The New York Times is reporting that an American Black Hawk was hit by Iranian ground fire during that rescue operation today. As American and Israeli officials tell The Times, that helicopter crew did manage to fly safely to Iraq.
There's other video tonight that shows the search underway in southwestern Iran, a military plane that is flying low, as there's two helicopters that are following closely behind, as you can see here. Also, a C-130 turboprop plane flying along the mountains ridge line.
Now, dozens of people were also seen searching on foot, in a clip that was published by Iranian state media, after an anchor announced that there would be a huge reward for anyone who captured the enemy pilots.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): If you capture and hand over a pilot or pilots of the enemy alive to the law enforcement and military forces, you will receive a valuable reward and prize.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: It's chilling to hear that, and especially as this search is still underway and only intensifying tonight.
As we're also getting word here at CNN, from a source, that Iran also struck a second U.S. military plane today. This time, it was an A-10 Thunderbolt that came under fire near the Strait of Hormuz. The lone pilot on board was able to navigate safely out of Iranian territory before ejecting, and the pilot there has also then been rescued.
This marks a significant moment in this war, as we are just now, five weeks in. Before today, not a single American plane -- warplane had been shot down by Iranian forces, and the Trump administration has been repeatedly touting and insisting that U.S. forces have complete air superiority in the skies over Iran.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: U.S. and Israeli joint forces control the skies and have asserted air dominance over Iran.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: They have no anti- aircraft equipment. Their radar is 100 percent annihilated. We are unstoppable as a military force.
They have no air force, and they have no nothing. And we literally have planes flying over Tehran and other parts of their country, they can't do a thing about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That's what the President had said before today.
Tonight, in his first and only comments that he's made on this downed jet, the President said it won't affect negotiations that are ongoing with Iran, telling NBC News, in a phone interview, not on camera, No, not at all. No, it's war. We're in war.
The President did not address the matter on camera or in front of reporters today. And the White House has called a lid, meaning we don't expect to see the President any more tonight.
I want to get straight to CNN's Matthew Chance who is live on the ground in Doha.
And Matthew, obviously, now this search has been underway for several hours. What more do we know about how this is going tonight?
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CHIEF GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, well, tonight, details are very sketchy, Kaitlan, still. We know that the search and rescue operation is still underway, even in the darkness. But we've not had any further updates from the U.S. military authorities about what progress, if any, has been made.
[21:05:00]
We know that the Iranians are also engaged in a search operation, to try and retrieve the missing U.S. airman. It's an enormous propaganda win for the Islamic regime, to have shot down not one but two U.S. aircraft in a single day, in the skies over Iran, today.
And Iranian officials are making the most of that. One senior Iranian leader, essentially mocking the Trump administration for its war aims. Mohammad Ghalibaf, who's the powerful Speaker of the Iranian parliament, posting on X this, This brilliant no-strategy war they started has now been downgraded from "regime change" to "Hey. Can anyone find our pilots? Please?" Incredible progress. What geniuses, he added sarcastically.
Again, a huge propaganda victory for the Iranians. And they've offered that reward as well to people to go out and to try and find the missing airman. A big financial reward, something like $76,000 in local currency, is being offered by the local authorities.
But of course, it also illustrates that, as you just mentioned, despite the fact that President Trump and other members of the Trump administration have been insisting, the skies over Iran are essentially safe for U.S. air -- U.S. aircraft, the Iranians have demonstrated yet again that that's not the case.
They've been striking around the region over the course of the past five weeks, almost non-stop. And so, there's always been some skepticism in the claim that Iran has been degraded to the point that it's no longer a threat. It's illustrated that it remains a threat to U.S. troops, this evening.
COLLINS: Yes.
CHANCE: Kaitlan.
COLLINS: And that official you cited is the same person the President says that they are negotiating with.
Matthew Chance on the ground. Keep us updated if you hear anything new about the search tonight. Obviously, we're following it very closely.
I'm also joined tonight by Vice Admiral Kevin Donegan, who is the former Commander of the Navy's Fifth Fleet.
And it's great to have you here, sir.
Because, one question immediately is, can you describe what a rescue operation like this looks like? I mean, I was hearing experts talk about the terrain earlier, just how difficult this gets the longer it goes on. What's your sense of what's happening right now?
VICE ADM. KEVIN DONEGAN (RET.), FORMER NAVY FIFTH FLEET COMMANDER: So, what's happening is, is what's basically put on alert. There's a -- there's always a package, when you have an operation like this that is dedicated to what we call combat search and rescue. So, that package is not always flying, it's on alert.
So, when something like this happens, then that package potentially launches, or the whole plan on what we do, when we have a downed air crew, gets put into effect. And that package basically takes airplanes that are airborne, but also special operations and other airplanes that are dedicated to going in, and taking out a pilot or aircrewmen if they're on the ground.
But part of that is also locating where they are first, and getting intelligence on what the enemy is doing, et cetera, as that goes on. And as you can imagine, that although I said it's planned, it's planned to have that package there, but every instance of having a downed pilot is going to be unique.
COLLINS: Yes.
DONEGAN: And in this case, the terrain is very unique because it's very mountainous. It's difficult terrain. It's probably why the two air crew are separated, because one could land in a valley, another one on a hill top, et cetera.
COLLINS: Yes.
DONEGAN: So, what's happening is that whole operation is ongoing right now, and that's why you're not hearing a lot about it, because it's our ongoing operation, and they're not going to tell you if we know where that other pilot is or what the condition is, et cetera.
COLLINS: Can you talk about -- so what are the pilots -- what are the crew members trained to do, in this scenarios? They're obviously trying to get themselves to safety, stay out of the potential path of these Iranian IRGC members who are looking for them. What are they doing? What are they trying to do?
DONEGAN: Yes, it's a really tough position that they're in, obviously, right? That first of all, they're in a country, that they don't know, right? They don't -- they don't -- you know, they don't exactly know who's around each corner.
They have an idea -- they know where they are, because they have looking information to tell them. And they know where they're supposed to get to for safety, certain zones that they go to, to, where there's less population and it's easier to be rescued. But they're trained in what we call SERE training, Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape. And the first thing you're going to do on the ground, if you're an aircrewman, is get yourself to a place where the enemy can't get to you, if that makes sense, and you communicate so that your team knows that you're alive and knows where you are.
And then from there, the team that I mentioned before, this combat search and rescue team is going to develop a plan to extract you. You saw in the first case, they did this in the daylight. It was pretty daring. They went in because they knew exactly where that pilot was and maybe he was in danger. And they got that first pilot out.
[21:10:00]
We don't know about the second aircrewman and the stage that they're in, other than we do know he's been through that, or she, has been through that training that I talked about, and they know their part in this plan. They know what they have to do to survive.
COLLINS: Yes.
DONEGAN: But it doesn't make it easy.
COLLINS: What's your biggest concern, I mean, just as the time ticks on here?
DONEGAN: Yes, well, first of all, when nightfall comes, I think that's a help to the U.S. forces, because the U.S. forces, especially combat, search and rescue, they're at their optimum game when darkness comes. So, as long as it's dark, there's advantages that the U.S. has.
The concern is, of course, the whole population is looking for this person, and they do know the ground, and maybe they have an idea where they saw a parachute or something. So, the concern is they converge first on the aircrewman before we do, or that the aircrewman is hurt and can't move, and is just waiting for rescue in a certain place, all those things come to mind.
COLLINS: Yes.
DONEGAN: But more strategically, you know, there's a lot of talk about air superiority and such. Air superiority doesn't necessarily mean that the enemy doesn't have a way to reach out and touch an airplane at a certain instance, like you saw here. It just means that we can carry out the lion's share of our missions without prohibited -- without a significant amount of resistance from the enemy.
COLLINS: Yes, that's a good point that you make there.
Vice Admiral Kevin Donegan, thank you for joining us here tonight.
DONEGAN: Thanks, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: I'm also joined now by a member of the House Armed Services Committee. Democratic congressman, John Garamendi of California.
And thank you, sir for being here.
Because, obviously we are seeing public information. What has the Armed Services Committee heard from the Pentagon about this situation?
REP. JOHN GARAMENDI (D-CA): We have heard virtually nothing from the Pentagon about this, nor have we heard, even before, about why we are in this war at all. We have basically been blocked out of any real good -- real information, certainly timely information. Basically, we're getting the same news reports as everybody else.
Bottom line of this is that the Pentagon and Trump have made a decision not to keep the House of Representatives and the Senate informed, about what's going on, certainly not on a weekly or even a daily basis.
Going forward, this -- we would hope that this airman is safe. After all, it is the Easter weekend. We would -- our prayers and thoughts are with that individual, as well as others that have been involved in this rescue operation. It's very, very dangerous, not only for the airman that's been shot down, but also for those that are risking their life to try to rescue that individual.
COLLINS: Yes.
GARAMENDI: So, here we go. Yes, we need information. No, we do not have much information at all from the Pentagon. Basically, they've stonewalled us.
COLLINS: So, basically they have told you what is already public. Is that what you're saying? You've been privy to no information, as a member of Congress, from the Pentagon about what's happened to these service members over the skies of Iran?
GARAMENDI: As far as I know, that is correct. We reached out to our professional staff on the committee, and they've not heard anything--
COLLINS: Wow.
GARAMENDI: --other than the normal reporting.
COLLINS: The President hasn't spoken in public about what has happened here. We don't expect to hear from him tonight. He did tell The Independent, in a quick interview, that he couldn't comment on what he would do if this second crew member who's still missing tonight is captured or harmed by the Iranians. He just said, quote, "We hope that's not going to happen."
What do you expect the United States to do, should this American service member be captured?
GARAMENDI: Well, if the service member is captured, we would want that service member to be treated as any other prisoner of war. That is, to be -- medical treatment as necessary. And the Articles of War, which seem to not be very much in place here, should be observed, certainly by Iran, and I would hope the United States would do the same. And that is, to treat captured soldiers appropriately, tending to their medical needs as necessary.
And I would expect Iran to begin to do two things. One is to celebrate the capture of the individual, which may already have occurred, at least in downing the airplane. But also, we would expect Iran to open negotiations about what to do with prisoners of war, and this individual would become a prisoner of war.
And have no doubt about this, Trump can do this any way he wants. But this is a war that has been undeclared. Trump has, to this moment, not come to Congress to seek congressional support for a war, War Powers Resolution or an Article of War. It hasn't been done.
COLLINS: Yes.
[21:15:00]
GARAMENDI: Yet enormous resources have been spent and lives have been lost, 13 Americans thus far, and another 300 that have been injured.
COLLINS: Do you think, sir, that should the worst-case scenario happen here, and this service member is captured? And obviously, we all hope that they're safely rescued. But what does that mean for the trajectory of this war? How fundamentally do you think it would change it, should they be captured?
GARAMENDI: Well, I really don't think it's going to change much unless Trump decides to make it a very significant issue.
We would expect in a war that there would be service men and women that could be captured. We would want them to be properly treated, as I said a moment ago, as prisoners of war. The point will may very well be that we could see what actually happened in the Iranian Revolution, more than 50 years ago, where prisoners were displayed in an inappropriate way as a trophy. That may very well happen once again.
What will that do to this war? Well, certainly we would see increased activity by Trump, at least in words. Would he begin to reach out and target other places in Iran? Quite possibly. All of that would be something of an escalation. And that would be unfortunate if, in fact, Trump is interested in a dialog that would lead to a secession of this hostilities. We're not there yet.
COLLINS: Yes.
GARAMENDI: It could very well be negative in trying to promote a ceasefire.
COLLINS: We'll see what happens. Obviously, our thoughts are with all of them tonight.
Congressman John Garamendi, thank you for taking the time to join us tonight.
GARAMENDI: Yes.
COLLINS: And we have more on what we're learning about this urgent search that is underway right ahead. The President's former National Security Advisor, Ambassador John Bolton, is also here to weigh in, as the top Iranian official that the President says the U.S. is negotiating with is now making fun of the U.S., over this missing service member.
And also, the win that the White House is touting on the economy today.
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: And we are following the breaking news this hour, as right now U.S. forces are engaged in a frantic and high-risk search for the second American crew member who is still missing in hostile territory tonight, after Iran shot down an American F-15E fighter jet.
One notable Iranian leader is mocking the United States about the search tonight. That's the parliamentary speaker, Mohammad Ghalibaf. Yes, the person that the President recently named as one of the high- ranking Iranian officials that he believes the United States could work with. And sources have told CNN, that the Trump administration has been indirectly, at least, exchanging messages with him.
Today, he wrote this, saying, After defeating Iran 37 times in a row, this brilliant no-strategy war they started has now been downgraded from "regime change" to "Hey. Can anyone find our pilots? Please?" Wow. What incredible progress. Absolute geniuses.
This comes, days after the President told the New York Post this, about whether Ghalibaf was willing to work with the United States. He said, We're going to find out... I'll let you know that in about a week.
Joining me tonight is the President's former National Security Advisor, Ambassador John Bolton.
And Ambassador, obviously, when you hear what Ghalibaf is saying about this, it's probably not surprising. But I mean, is that someone you believe the United States can work with, given this?
JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: Well, I don't think there is anybody in this regime at the level of Ghalibaf and dozens of others, frankly, that is any different in their fanatical Islamicist ideology that would treat with the United States.
And I think this frantic idea to find Iran's equivalent of Delcy Rodriguez was a fool's errand to begin with. None of these people are going to make any change in policy, if for no other reason at this moment, than they're in fear of their own life from their compatriots still in Tehran.
So, the deadline runs out on April the 6th for the negotiations, if they've even taken place other than sending notes through intermediaries. Which, you can parse the word, negotiation. That's not negotiation to me.
COLLINS: If Iran gets to this missing American crew member before the U.S. does, does that change this war, in your view?
BOLTON: Not at all. I mean, we're all concerned to get that crew member back. There's no question about it. I wouldn't want to see any American become a POW of this regime.
But let's see what the situation is right now. Iran has now shot down two of our aircraft. Kuwait has shot down three. This happens. It's unfortunate. And it's a propaganda victory for Iran, only if we let it become one.
This is -- this is something that tests our resolve, and we should have had a reserve of resolve before we started the war. And if the President or the White House are shaky because of this, then it indicates, yet again, that they had not thoroughly thought through what it meant to launch these attacks.
COLLINS: Does it undermine what the White House has been saying about how degraded Iran's capability is. I mean, the President said this week that Iran had no anti-aircraft equipment, that their radar was 100 percent annihilated.
[21:25:00]
BOLTON: Sure, it absolutely degrades White House credibility, and that's a self-inflicted wound by the White House, not by the Iranians. If you overstate what you've accomplished, and evidence comes that shows that you've overstated? You'll look foolish.
COLLINS: Why do you think the President hasn't spoken about this on camera today? Does that stand out to you at all?
BOLTON: No, it sounds to me like he's probably back in a panic mode, wishing he could find a way to declare victory and get out of this war, regardless of whether or not he opens the Strait of Hormuz before he does it. I think that's a mistake, too.
I think that this -- if there had been an effective decision-making process before the war started, and these concerns were raised and they bothered the President, he had the option then not to initiate the attack. But apparently, he was satisfied.
Now, if things are upsetting him, that he either didn't think about or didn't pay any attention to, in the run up to the war? That's a problem for him, and therefore it's a problem for the country. But it was easily avoided, and should have been avoided.
COLLINS: On the Strait of Hormuz. I mean, the President has gone from saying it's not America's problem, that U.S. allies should just take it, that it would be easy, this would open up naturally once the war is over.
Now he said today, With a little more time, we can easily open it, take the oil and make a fortune. It would be a gusher for the world. I mean, do you have any sense of what he plans to do with the united -- with the Strait of Hormuz based on that?
BOLTON: No, I don't. But I'm not bothered, because I don't think he does either. I think -- I think this is just more rhetoric. And I don't think it's helpful.
This is -- we have an interest in the Strait of Hormuz being open because that region produces 20 percent of the world's oil. And it doesn't matter that we import very little of it ourselves, because oil is priced in a global market, and anybody with their hand on the spigot on the Strait of Hormuz, determined to turn it off, is going to have a devastating effect on the world economy. That's why we've came concerned about this region in the late 1970s, and that concern has not changed.
Should others be doing more? Yes, I think the Europeans have made a big mistake in the way they reacted to Trump. But that doesn't lessen our interest in opening the Strait for our partners, the Gulf Arabs, who are not getting any oil out. I think we should blockade Iranian vessels from getting out until -- and apply pressure until they allow the Gulf Arabs to ship as well.
COLLINS: Is that something you believe the United States is capable of doing with the forces in the area right now?
BOLTON: They may need additional forces, but I think it beats trying to land on Kharg Island or some of the other things that have been suggested. The Iranians are selling oil on the global market and presumably receiving payment, which is a resource they can use in the war to help kill Americans. What sense does that make?
COLLINS: Ambassador John Bolton, on that question, we'll leave it there. Thank you for joining us tonight.
BOLTON: Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next. As we are still monitoring this search in the Middle East, we'll continue to bring you updates this hour as we get them.
Also, at the White House tonight, there is concern spreading through the President's Cabinet that they could be on the chopping block next, after he ousted two Cabinet secretaries within one month.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: In a White House that has certainly been looking for good headlines, they touted today the President's best jobs numbers of his second term, as the labor market had a major bounce back in March, with 178,000 jobs added, last month, nearly tripling the expectations.
The unemployment rate also dipped to 4.3 percent, suggesting that the labor market is holding steady, even as the Iran war has been sending those shockwaves across the globe, and also, gas prices at home have hit over the $4 a gallon mark.
I want to talk about this tonight with my political sources.
Jamal Simmons is the former deputy assistant to President Biden.
And Charlie Dent is the former Republican Congressman of Pennsylvania.
And obviously, Charlie, the White House has been looking for any good news they can get on the economy. They've been talking about gas prices, dealing with this every day. Do you think this is something that's enough to alleviate what voters have been feeling and that pessimism we've seen in the polls?
CHARLIE DENT, FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE (R-PA): Well, I think this is a moment of relief for the administration. Certainly, these good job numbers are encouraging. But of course, the bigger concern though, I think, for most Americans, is inflation, and the Fed is going to have to deal with this as well. The Fed has to balance employment with inflation.
And I suspect right now that with the gas prices rising rapidly, the tariff issue still unsettled, that inflation is still going to be a big issue, and that's front of mind for most voters. It's not just the high price of gasoline. It's the high price of electricity, food, health care, housing, you name it. So, that's the -- that's really the soft underbelly of this economy is, surging prices.
COLLINS: Jamal, do you give the administration credit for this latest jobs report?
JAMAL SIMMONS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Absolutely, it's good news for the American worker. It's good news for the American economy if it's going to be resilient.
[21:35:00]
But to Charlie's point, I think this $4 plus gasoline is also a problem. I mean, for most Americans in the country, they're not tracking the Dow Jones, they're not tracking the NASDAQ every day. But everybody I know can tell you exactly how much they paid for gas last time they went, and maybe they can tell you how much gas is at the neighborhood gas station that they pass every day. They look at that number every time they pass by.
So, people are very aware of this gas price as something that's an indicator for whether or not the economy is doing well, and inflation is down or up.
COLLINS: Yes.
And also Charlie, on the other front that we've seen tonight. Not just in terms of the economy. The White House was relieved by this today. We saw that publicly.
One thing that has kind of enveloped the West Wing this week was the firing of the Attorney General, Pam Bondi. It had kind of happened slowly and then all at once. And now we're hearing that other Cabinet officials are worried they too could be on the chopping block, because the President had this resistance to firing people in his second term. And now with ousting Kristi Noem and Pam Bondi, all within a month, that seems to have totally dissipated.
DENT: Well, it sure has.
And oftentimes, after a midterm election, an administration might like to make some changes. But the House looks likely to flip, and the Senate is sort of a toss-up right now, and that could flip as well. So, I think the administration would like to make changes now or sooner, to try to be able to get their nominees through the Senate confirmation process while Republicans have control. So, I think that's part of the calculation.
And of course, there are some Cabinet secretaries who have sort of scandals on their own. Some of the various, you know, the scandal -- they have problems of, politically speaking, of Tulsi Gabbard is often talked about. There are problems at Department of Labor. Certainly RFK, but he's probably secure. Hegseth, Signalgate. There are all sorts of issues. Lutnick. So, I would -- with Epstein.
So, I think, right now, if I were the administration, I'd make the changes sooner rather than later, because they might not get their Cabinet nominees through after the election.
COLLINS: I mean, Jamal, as someone who worked inside the White House, not this White House, but, I mean, how is this viewed in terms of -- you know, CNN had heard, I think, back in January, that the message had kind of been, If you're going to leave, leave now, because the midterms are coming up, we don't want huge staff upheaval.
And now, for the first time, they're seeing that. And as Charlie Dent mentioned, there is a good point that there are others, like the Labor Secretary, who do have issues of their own, including an internal investigation about her conduct in the department.
SIMMONS: Yes, Kaitlan, sometimes the political gods demand a sacrifice. And when you are in trouble and things aren't going well, you got to do something to try to right the ship.
And look, Donald Trump knows this show that he's running is not going very well. He needs a reboot. And so, finding some new people to put in place might be a way to kind of give people a physical representation, that things are going to be different, things are going to change. That's very often what happens. I mean, also, you are going to have new people who want to do things new ways.
But at the end of the day, this isn't about Cabinet secretaries. This is really about Donald Trump and whether or not the American people still have confidence that he's not just making it up as he goes. And that is the trouble, whether it's Iran, or it's the economy, or whatever is happening, it just seems like he's making it up. And so, American people are probably losing a little bit of confidence in him right now. COLLINS: Yes, and obviously we've seen just -- I mean, I was talking to a White House official, the other day, about, between Iran and huge questions over the exit, the Pam Bondi ouster, just all of this kind of happening at once. It raises a lot of questions about the midterms.
Charlie Dent. Jamal Simmons. Great to have both of you here tonight. Thank you for joining us on this Friday.
SIMMONS: Good to be with you.
DENT: Thanks, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Up next. We also have a look inside the nation's deadliest prison system. It's actually in my home state. We have the Director of the Oscar-nominated documentary, "The Alabama Solution" here, right after a quick break.
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: An Oscar-nominated film is exposing an infuriating situation that is unfolding in my home state of Alabama.
The documentary, which I should note, is distributed by CNN's sister company, HBO, is "The Alabama Solution," and it offers a scary look inside the nation's deadliest prison system, told by the inmates themselves, through contraband cellphone recordings. The abuses that they allege are stunning, from inhumane conditions to brutal beatings by prison guards.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police in here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh. OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's OK, they're gone now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Would a regular phone call be better?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, because it does not allow us to just be ourselves. You know, when we present our stories, we want to present our whole self, not just our voice.
We're in these walled-off secret societies.
These are state institutions.
But it's one of the only state institutions that the public or the media has no access to.
How can a journalist go into a war zone, but can't go into a prison in the United States of America?
(END VIDEO CLIP) [21:45:00]
COLLINS: And on that question, my source tonight is one of the film's directors, Andrew Jarecki.
And it's great to have you here.
Because this film is, it's hard to watch, and I think infuriating is the word for it, when you hear what these people are saying. But what's so remarkable is to hear them saying it, and them describing it, which is something you do not often get from someone who is still serving a sentence inside a prison.
ANDREW JARECKI, DIRECTOR OF OSCAR-NOMINATED "THE ALABAMA SOLUTION," EMMY AWARD-WINNING FILMMAKER & MUSICIAN: Yes, it's true. I mean, I think so much of what America thinks about prison comes through sort of the prism of having seen these television shows, or hearing from people who are being overseen by wardens, or hearing from commissioners or whatever. But very seldom, because of the secrecy around prisons, do we get to hear directly from the people that are inside these institutions.
So, in our film, after we went into one of the prisons, and we ended up sort of hearing whispers from the men, we started to get nosy. We get kicked out, as you saw in the film, at a certain point. And then we thought, Well, how are we going to tell this story? There's a really disastrous thing happening in these prisons in Alabama and beyond.
And it's then that we found out that there was this network of really fascinating people inside, who had access to contraband cellphones, and that became the way that we were able to pierce the veil of secrecy that you usually have between the public and prison.
COLLINS: Well, and one thing that stood out to me is when you first went in, the guards were saying, Oh, they're going to try to hand you pieces of paper. Don't talk to them. Don't interact with them.
But you -- the two of you talked about how you actually felt safer speaking to the people who were incarcerated, than you did with the guards inside prisons--
JARECKI: Yes, I mean, I'm not -- you know, I don't think I'm naive about the fact that there are a lot of people in prison who have a reason to be there, and prison has a role in society.
COLLINS: Yes, of course.
JARECKI: The goal of the film is not to say, Well, prisons shouldn't exist.
The goal of the film is to say, If we're going to incarcerate people, we have to do it in a minimally humane way for our own purposes, right? Leaving aside the fact that it's bad to mistreat people in any situation. It's a kind of a fool's errand. Because if we expect that we're going to take people, put them into these facilities, a lot of these people who are drug-addicted, or mentally ill, or need help, in one way or another, and we're going to traumatize them in those facilities.
We're going to put them in an environment, like in Alabama, where they really are death camps, where people are being murdered by prison guards, where people who are supposed to be taking care of them, are making money by selling them drugs.
That's kind of ridiculous for us to assume that then, when 95 percent of those people get out, they're going to be able to reenter society, they're going to become taxpayers, you know, we're going to let them go with $50 and a bus ticket, or, sometimes in Alabama, $10 and a bus ticket, after they've been incarcerated for years, and then expect that they're going to be able to do anything with their lives, right?
But ultimately, they can't even -- if they can't even afford to stay in a motel for one night, it's going to be hard for them to avoid recidivism and all the things that we worry about in terms of public safety.
COLLINS: Well, and even just with that, I mean, to hear the comments there at the end where he's asking, you know, Reporters can go into war zones, but they can't come into a lot of prisons inside the U.S. to report on them and what's happening.
JARECKI: Sure.
COLLINS: And this circles around a lot, the death of an inmate who was -- who was killed, and his family is told one thing, and then the people who were also incarcerated with him said something completely different--
JARECKI: Sure.
COLLINS: --about what actually happened to him.
JARECKI: Yes. Well, we started tracking a particular death, a particular killing inside the prison, because one of our contacts inside texted us and said, Hey, this guard that you've been following, a guy named Rod Gadson, who's a very violent guard. There were 24 different excessive force lawsuits against him. We think he's beaten somebody very badly.
And then Charlotte Kaufman and I went, jumped in a car, went to UAB Hospital, which you're familiar with.
COLLINS: Yes.
JARECKI: And we just walked up to the intensive care unit, and we found that he had passed away, that he had died from his injuries.
And then, we met his mother. And his mother is kind of heroic. I mean, she's sort of this, kind of older white lady with -- carries oxygen around with her. She's not the person you would imagine is like a classic heroic figure. But she said, Look, what happened to me, my son being killed by a prison guard, that shouldn't happen to anybody else. So, why don't you move in with me in my house, you can take the spare room, and you're going to start hearing, they're calling me and they're lying to me. There's a coverup already happening. They're telling me that my son attacked a guard, which is not true at all.
And so, we started to get into that, really from the inside. It was -- ended up being kind of a murder investigation inside a prison, but we were doing it in a way, in collaboration with the men who were already inside. That's just a very unusual situation, if you're doing an investigation, to be doing that kind of group effort, you know?
[21:50:00]
COLLINS: And just one thing. The Alabama Attorney General criticized this, and also argued that they didn't have enough of a say in this, but.
JARECKI: Yes, it was very strange. Steve Marshall is his name, and he's running for U.S. Senate. And so, I was very surprised, after having interviewed him, for quite a long time, at his office, that after the film came out, he said, I've never met those filmmakers, I don't know who they are. He sort of acted like he couldn't pronounce my name. And it was a very strange thing, I think--
COLLINS: But you had actually met him.
JARECKI: I mean, obviously I'd met him.
COLLINS: Right.
JARECKI: I interviewed him, and he's in the film. And then after that, there was a sort of expose in the press, where they said, Well, it looks like he's in the film, and you know.
COLLINS: Yes.
JARECKI: But it's, I mean, I would say one very important thing is that this is not a partisan issue, right? Lot of conservative people who've seen this film have said, That's not what I mean by tough on crime.
And there's been a lot of progress, actually, recently, including--
COLLINS: Yes.
JARECKI: --there's been a piece of legislation recently for prison oversight. So, there's some -- some good things to be had in this dark situation.
COLLINS: Andrew Jarecki.
The film is "The Alabama Solution." Everyone should watch it. The documentary is on HBO, and you can stream it on HBO Max now.
Thank you for joining us.
JARECKI: Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next here. A look behind the scenes this week at the White House.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:55:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TRUMP: We've had regime change.
The one regime was destroyed. They're all dead. The next regime is mostly dead. And the third regime, we're dealing with different people than anybody's dealt with before.
ON SCREEN TEXT: Monday, March 30.
LEAVITT: Operation Epic Fury is moving ahead successfully and according to plan.
The President has been asked about boots on the ground or alleged ground operations various times. He's obviously declined to rule them out.
Their best move is to make a deal, or else the United States Armed Forces has capabilities beyond their wildest imagination, and the President is not afraid to use them.
COLLINS: They put a number on this. Do they feel that they need to stick to it? Or do they feel that they can say, We need a few more weeks.
MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES, AUTHOR, "CONFIDENCE MAN": How long this goes on, and what exactly that looks like, and what the endgame is? That is open to discussion.
Most of them would rather not have some kind of ground force invasion. That doesn't mean it will not happen. It just depends on how this goes.
ON SCREEN TEXT: Tuesday, March 31.
COLLINS: You see that giant crane over my shoulder? That's the construction of President Trump's White House ballroom that a federal judge has just ordered to come to a complete halt.
In this new ruling, this judge, who was an appointee of President George W. Bush's, says that all construction must come to an end until Congress can authorize it.
In this ruling, the judge writes that while the President may be the Steward of the White House for the generations of future First Families, he notes, with an exclamation point, that he is not the owner of the White House.
TRUMP: For 150 years, they've wanted a ballroom.
We're going to have the finest ballroom I believe anywhere in the world.
Congressional approval is not necessary to put up a ballroom.
Look what's happening in Iran. They have no military. They're losing. They admit they're losing. They're begging to make a deal.
COLLINS: Now that we're a month in, the President is set to address the nation in prime time tomorrow night. What do you want to hear from him?
REP. PAT RYAN (D-NY): What we've wanted to hear from the beginning, which is, what is the plan? What is our objective?
He has not even tried to make the case to the American people.
ON SCREEN TEXT: Wednesday, April 1.
COLLINS: Our sources are telling us, here at CNN, that President Trump has privately mused about firing his Attorney General, Pam Bondi, and replacing her with the EPA administrator, a longtime loyalist of his, Lee Zeldin.
Now, it's not clear if the President has made a final decision about firing Pam Bondi. She was actually seen riding with him, in his motorcade, on Wednesday, as he went to the Supreme Court for those hearings on birthright citizenship.
Hi.
Let's listen in to the President as he is expected to walk out any moment now.
TRUMP: As we speak this evening, it's been just one month since the United States military began Operation Epic Fury.
My first preference was always the path of diplomacy, yet the regime continued their relentless quest for nuclear weapons and rejected every attempt at an agreement.
COLLINS: That was President Trump, delivering a prime time speech from the White House, justifying why the United States went to war with Iran.
The President also made the argument overall that he is doing what no other president was willing to do. Of course, he was in office previously and did not go to war with Iran.
Christiane, just your takeaways from what you heard from the President tonight?
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: To be very frank, I didn't hear a lot new.
The most important thing, I think, is even nearly five weeks into this, the IRGC remains in control, remains able to retaliate in whatever way. It just takes one missile here or there, to threaten the most important part of this whole equation, which is the Strait of Hormuz, through which 20 percent of the world's oil does travel.
ON SCREEN TEXT: Thursday, April 2.
COLLINS: Hi, Jamieson, can you take a question from us? Just one or two.
Obviously, oil prices are rising after the President said last night that allies should go and take back the Strait of Hormuz. How much does that concern to you and what you're seeing today?
JAMIESON GREER, UNITED STATES TRADE REPRESENTATIVE: We have a lot of energy independence.
This is a very different spot than we would've been 20 years ago.
The fundamentals of the global energy market are OK.
[22:00:00]
COLLINS: The French president today said taking it by force is just not realistic, as the President suggested last night.
GREER: Well I'll just defer.
COLLINS: Just 24 hours ago, Pam Bondi was in the room, as her boss, the President, addressed the nation. Tonight, she's out of the job.
They were just together yesterday, in the President's motorcade, going to the Supreme Court. Now, a day later, she's back in Florida and out of a job.
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Even leading up to the firing, the people closest to him were telling me, We're not sure he's going to do it.
You know, he's said a lot of negative stuff about her. But he says a lot of negative stuff about everyone, and he's kept everybody around.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: Thanks so much for joining us here on THE SOURCE tonight.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
