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The Source with Kaitlan Collins

Trump Refuses To Apologize To Pope Leo: "He's Wrong"; Swalwell To Resign As Pressure Mounts Over Misconduct Claims; Vance Says Ball Is In Iran's Court To Advance Peace Talks. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired April 13, 2026 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Now that Swalwell will no longer be a Member of Congress, this committee does not have jurisdiction over former members of Congress. So, Swalwell avoiding an Ethics probe, but perhaps not a criminal probe, Anderson.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: All right.

Manu Raju, busy day for you. Appreciate it all. Thanks for your reporting.

That's it for us. Thanks for watching. See you, tomorrow.

The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: Tonight, 15 U.S. warships are in position in a potentially risky mission in the Strait of Hormuz. The latest reporting.

I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.

Tonight, President Trump is aiming to force Iran back to the negotiating table and bring a swift end to the war, even as he unleashes a new war of words of his own, on the Pope.

An American president clashing with the American-born Pope isn't something that you see every day. And neither is this. A prominent Republican, Marjorie Taylor Greene, and a prominent Democrat, Congressman Ro Khanna, weighing the notion of teaming up together and taking aim at what they say has gone wrong with the government and Washington in general. They're both here live for an interview, and they'll join me in just a moment.

As this war is now entering its seventh week, with the Commander-in- Chief now ordering American sailors to begin the difficult and dangerous job of using their warships as an Iranian blockade. The point of the mission is to choke off Iran's ability to ship oil and lead them to back down.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Mr. President, as far as the naval blockade is concerned, what's the endgame? Is it to force Iran back to the negotiating table? Is it to open up the Strait so the gas prices ultimately come down? DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Maybe everything. I mean, both of those things, certainly, and more. We can't let a country blackmail or extort the world, because that's what they're doing. They're really blackmailing the world.

Right now we have a blockade. They're doing no business. I didn't like seeing boats come out if they were doing business with Iran, but if they weren't, no boats came out. So now they're doing -- Iran is doing absolutely no business, and we're going to keep it that way, very easily.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: We're told by U.S. officials tonight, the conversations are happening about a potential second meeting, after talks led by Vice President Vance broke off this weekend without a deal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I can tell you that we've been called by the other side. They'd like to make a deal very badly, very badly.

REPORTER: What was the sticking point over -- you said it was over nuclear?

TRUMP: It was over nuclear. Very similar. Yes. Very good. I guess you're listening. It's over the fact that they will never have a nuclear weapon. Iran -- you're marking it down? Iran will not have a nuclear weapon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: The latest in this war comes, as the President is also facing something that he rarely does. Blowback from his own supporters, after he attacked Pope Leo for speaking out about the war in Iran.

The President made clear today that he will not apologize for what he said about the Pope, despite calls to do so by a Bishop who serves on his Religious Liberty Commission.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Pope Leo said things that are wrong. He was very much against what I'm doing with regard to Iran. And you cannot have a nuclear Iran. Pope Leo would not be happy with the end result. You have hundreds of millions of people dead. And it's not going to happen. So, I can't. I think he's very weak on crime and other things. So, I'm not -- I mean, he went public. I'm just responding to Pope Leo.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: In that same Q&A with reporters, the President also addressed why he deleted a post on his social media page that depicted him as Jesus. Few things have shaken the President's iron grip on his religious supporters, like this post, that he shared yesterday, did. Now, he confirmed today that, yes, it was the President himself who posted this image. But as he argued today, with reporters, about what he believed he was posting, he said he didn't think it showed him as Jesus, but instead as a doctor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I did post it, and I thought it was me as a doctor, and had to do with the Red Cross, as a Red Cross worker there, which we support. And only the fake news could come up with that one. So, I had -- I just heard about it, and I said, How did they come up with that? It's supposed to be me as a doctor, making people better, and I do make people better. I make people a lot better.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: And a telling sign of just how far-reaching the criticism of the President has become, my first two sources are talking about the idea of working together. Democratic congressman, Ro Khanna of California, and former Republican Congresswoman of Georgia, Marjorie Taylor Greene, are both here.

[21:05:00]

And thank you both for joining us. It's great to have both of you here, to listen to you, and to get your thoughts on the idea of what this could look like.

But first, Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, I have to ask you, if you believe that the President thought he was depicting himself as a doctor, not Jesus in that post.

MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE, FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE (R-GA): No, absolutely not. I thought that was blasphemy. As a Christian, I was very offended.

And a doctor -- President Trump is not a doctor, and that picture had him in a robe, as Jesus is often portrayed with light coming out of his hands. And he talked about healing people like a Red Cross worker. I think there would be many people that would argue with that, you know, saving lives.

So, I think it was blasphemy. I was offended. I think he should apologize, not act defensive. And many Christians, across America and the world, were very offended by that.

COLLINS: I think the split between you and the President is well-known now. Obviously, you've talked about the death threats you've gotten because of what he said about you and what has happened there.

Some people might hear your answer there, though, and remember things that you have said about the President in the past. Things like this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TAYLOR GREENE: President Trump is joining some of the most incredible people in history being arrested today. Nelson Mandela was arrested, served time in prison, Jesus -- Jesus was arrested and murdered by the Roman government.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: When obviously you hear those comments that you said before. How would you respond to people who might say, Well, comparisons like that are what led to the President posting what he did yesterday.

TAYLOR GREENE: We're talking about people being prosecuted unfairly by weaponization of government, political prosecutions, things that have -- such as like the (inaudible) political protesters. That's what I was referring to there. I wasn't talking (inaudible) or President Trump trying to portray himself as Jesus. I think that was completely different.

President Trump and I have had our differences on a few key issues. I'm not a Democrat at all, Kaitlan. But we did have our disagreements on the Epstein files and the war in Iran.

And I've always been very anti-war. That was with under President Biden, I was anti-war, voted that way, voted against funding foreign wars such as Ukraine and aid to Israel.

And I have also been very vocal about the Epstein files, which is what led to President Trump calling me a traitor, saying he would destroy me and run a primary opponent against me.

So, I think that's a completely different comparison.

COLLINS: And Congressman Khanna, when you look at this. That post came after the Pope had said that he wanted peace in Iran, peace in the world. The President obviously viewed that as criticism and said that he was weak on crime. Do you understand why the President is engaging in this attack on the Pope that he says he won't apologize for?

REP. RO KHANNA (D-CA): I find it sad.

I mean, I respect Representative Greene as a person of Christian faith. We don't agree on a lot of issues. We don't agree on abortion rights. We may not agree on everything related to gun violence. But she cares about the dignity of human beings. That's why she has spoken out against the President when he says, I want to wipe out Iranian civilization.

That's what I'm concerned about more than social media posts. That's why we've spoken out for survivors. These aren't political issues. These are moral issues, rooted in our Constitution, rooted in our faith traditions. And my concern with the President is he's not simply arguing ideology anymore. He's made this about a betrayal of fundamental values.

COLLINS: Yes, that post last week got a lot more attention, where the President said, A whole civilization will die tonight.

And Congresswoman -- former Congresswoman Greene, you posted about that, after the President had made that threat. He went off on Tucker Carlson, Megyn Kelly, several people who have been pretty big champions of his in the past, and he also went after you. You responded to that post about, a whole civilization will die with, in all caps, 25th Amendment and three exclamation points.

Do you really think that the President should be removed from office?

TAYLOR GREENE: I think we have to truly question the mental stability of any president that threatens to wipe out an entire civilization of people. That would include all the innocent people in that country that have nothing to do with the war, especially after President Trump said, this was about freeing the Iranian people from the Iranian regime. So, for him to call to wipe out an entire civilization of people, it is absolutely wrong.

[21:10:00]

But here, I want to talk tonight about the reason why we're having this discussion, is Ro Khanna and I both are willing to say that the current center of right and left that have been coming together for decades have failed Americans.

And Ro and I, just like he said, we're completely different. I'm unapologetically pro-life. I'm against the trans agenda on children. I'm against the Green New Deal. I'm for very secure borders, and a strong economy, and a smaller government.

But the current center right and left, that coalition in America, have got us in $40 trillion in debt, have funded foreign war after foreign war after foreign war, and now funding another one, and they will be, and we don't know how long this will go. And it's gotten to a point where Americans can't afford life, Kaitlan.

And so, Ro and I, we exchanged comments on social media, saying that we recognize how (inaudible) for the left and the right to come together and find issues that we can work together on. But Ro and I did that on the Epstein files, and it was incredibly important.

And there's also issues such as funding foreign (inaudible) foreign governments that we share that in common, and we know this (inaudible) that Americans are going in. So, I think this is an important conversation worth having.

COLLINS: Well, and I just want to keep both of you on screen for a second, because I think some people might be watching and have never seen the two of you do an interview together before. I'm not sure if you've--

KHANNA: I don't think we have.

COLLINS: I'm not sure if the two of you have.

But that kind of speaks to this moment, and which is why we wanted to have the two of you on together. Because I think you're right, Congresswoman, that the two of you have a lot of things that you still don't agree on. But there are these major issues, from the Epstein files to this war in Iran, and no end in sight right now, that the two of you do agree on.

And so, Congressman Khanna, I think that is a question of what you think this could potentially look like, even if people are skeptical of it being realistic.

KHANNA: Well, first of all, more than the policies, I think it's the way Representative Greene and I treat each other, with respect. Not looking at the worst possible thing either of us has said, over the last 10 years, and trying to sensationalize it. But trying to actually have a dialog, to understand where the other person is coming from, where we disagree and where we could have more common ground.

You know, most Americans want to do that with their families. They want to do that with their neighbors. They're tired of us being as divided and simply looking to score political points.

And when you have those kind of conversations, you realize that when it comes to corruption in government, and an Epstein class that abused young girls and doesn't have consequences. Well look, the right and the left can agree, that we need to have one tier of justice.

When it comes not to having these foreign wars that have spent billions of dollars, that could be invested in jobs here, in the community here. The right and left can agree, that we shouldn't be in these foreign wars. We shouldn't be giving a blank check of aid to Israel, which has a $45 billion defense budget, and we should be investing here. Our Vice President shouldn't be going and reporting to Netanyahu before he reports to the United States Congress.

And the issue of the cost of living. I mean, Marjorie Taylor Greene has talked about how people don't have health care. Now, I'm for Medicare for All. She may have different ideas on that. But we both recognize that the system is broken.

And, in my view, unless we start to have these conversations in a civil, thoughtful way, we're not going to actually address the fundamental issue, which is the working class, and many people in the middle class, have gotten shafted in America.

COLLINS: Congresswoman, what does that look like for you, if -- you know, you have talked a lot about what your constituents -- your former constituents were feeling, as gas prices were going up, as inflation was going up, they were still paying too much, despite what the campaign promises from this administration were.

I wonder what that potentially looks like for you in terms of addressing those still very real concerns from people, if you're not in Congress. What would you say to that, to someone who says, Well, she's not in Washington anymore. What capacity does she have to directly address that?

TAYLOR GREENE: I think I have the capacity to drive the conversation and the willingness to do so, when there's very few people on the right willing to do that.

I completely agree with Ro. Americans are really sick and tired of the divide, and they're sick and tired of the political drama in their lives. What they expect of their elected leaders is to make their lives easier, to make their lives more affordable, and they really would like their government to come to a point where it's seen and not necessarily heard most of the time.

[21:15:00]

And I think this is -- this is something that I'm willing to involve myself in, because I think the political pressure on the outside is actually becoming more powerful than the ability to get things accomplished on the inside. That's what I found firsthand.

Many Americans today are getting to the point, where they think both parties have fully failed them, Republicans and Democrats, and they're coming to a point where they're saying, Do we need an independent party, or is there even a candidate that can actually represent my interests? Because many -- and it's about really the younger generations. Not the older generations. We have real problems coming in the future, and it's the forward-thinking leaders that are going to be the problem solvers for that.

Ro mentioned health care. It is a real problem. And Republicans refuse to face the issue. You know, they complain all the time about Obamacare, but they're unwilling to do anything to fix it. And I think there needs to be a real solution there.

I'm not for Medicare for All. But I am for a strong solution that can help Americans, and I think that -- I think that involves real work. And it can be hard work, not one that can be solved quickly with our conversation tonight.

But it's also younger Americans where, say, parents and people that are married, they're both working, and they're still struggling to get by. But we also have to look at Social Security, which is going to be bankrupt in seven years, and the real problem, which is the devaluation of our dollar, which is affecting all of us and the -- and the growing and never ending debt that Americans find themselves falling into.

So, I really think this is -- I think this is something that America is craving, and I'm looking forward to more dialog.

COLLINS: Can I -- you mentioned Americans. A lot of Americans are disenfranchised with Congress. Period. Republicans and Democrats.

For both of you, I am curious what your thoughts are, especially starting with you, Congressman Khanna, on the resignations that are planned, of Eric Swalwell and Tony Gonzales from Congress tonight.

KHANNA: They should resign. They did despicable things.

I wish Representative Greene actually was still in Congress as a Republican, you know, I would support, a Democrat. But from a perspective of someone I could work for, I respected the integrity with which she stood with survivors and with which we have had conversations. But what Representative Swalwell did and what Representative Gonzales did is disgusting. I mean, there are allegations of actual rape and sexual assault, allegations of having sexual relations with a subordinate, where someone then committed suicide.

I can't be in good conscience speaking out against the Epstein abusers and then not speaking out about colleagues who are doing those things. So, they need to resign. And I would have voted to expel both of them, if they hadn't.

COLLINS: Congresswoman Greene?

TAYLOR GREENE: Yes, I think both of these men, these members of Congress, it was right for them to resign, because they're actually guilty of some of the very type things that we found in the Epstein files.

And this is -- Congress is no place for that type of behavior. But I have to tell you, it's a lot more prevalent. I think there's more members of Congress that are guilty of things, similar to Congressman Swalwell and Congressman Gonzales, and we just haven't seen them basically get caught.

So, I think this was probably a decision that had maybe occurred through conversations between Speaker Johnson and Leader Jeffries, and perhaps the pressure was put there for a one-for-one resignation. And this is -- this is helpful for members of Congress of both parties, so that they're not put on the spot, voting to expel another member from their party.

However, I completely agree with Ro. That's not a difficult vote. And I'm glad to hear him say he would have voted to expel both of them.

COLLINS: Yes.

And obviously, Eric Swalwell is denying those allegations, saying that he wants to respond to those. We'll see what he says. We have much more on that, coming up in the show.

But I just want to say thank you to Congressman Ro Khanna, former Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene. Obviously, as we noted, not an interview that you see every day. So, thank you for both coming on here together tonight.

KHANNA: Thanks for having us.

TAYLOR GREENE: Thanks.

COLLINS: And up next. We are going to speak exclusively, CNN is, with one of the women who is accusing Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell of sexual misconduct, hours after he announced his resignation. What she has to say to my colleague, Pamela Brown.

Also later. Pope Leo says he has no fear, after the President attacked him. His longtime friend and former colleague is actually going to join me, later tonight. [21:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: We have breaking news tonight, as two U.S. House members are on their way out of Congress, resigning amid sexual misconduct allegations and congressional investigations.

Republican congressman, Tony Gonzales of Texas, said that he will file retirement paperwork tomorrow, after he was facing intense scrutiny for acknowledging that he did have an affair with a staffer who later died by suicide.

Now, that came shortly after Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell said he was resigning, after the House Ethics Committee opened an investigation into him, days after CNN's report that Swalwell allegedly raped a former staffer, and three other women who accused him of sending unwanted nude photos.

[21:25:00]

Now tonight, Swalwell is fiercely denying the allegations against him, saying in, quote, "I am deeply sorry to my family, staff, and constituents for mistakes in judgment I've made in my past. I will fight the serious, false allegation made against me. However, I must take responsibility and ownership for the mistakes I did make. Expelling anyone in Congress without due process, within days of an allegation being made, is wrong. But it's also wrong for my constituents to have me distracted from my duties. Therefore, I plan to resign my seat in Congress."

Tonight, in a CNN exclusive, one of Swalwell's accusers is speaking out on camera for the first time in a new interview with my colleague, Pamela Brown, who joins me now.

Pamela, what can you tell us?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Well, I sat down with Ally Sammarco. And, as you noted, she was one of the accusers of Congressman Swalwell in our story, last Friday.

And she sat down with me for the first time, and she's the only woman so far who has come public, and she told me she felt like it was important to be public and to identify herself, because she wanted to help other women. She didn't realize that there were other women out there with these sexual misconduct allegations.

Now, these are allegations that Swalwell, for his part, denies.

But in her story that CNN has corroborated, she says that Swalwell reached out to her in 2021, and sent her an unsolicited photo of his genitalia, over Snapchat, and also sent other inappropriate pictures. Of course, Snapchat is known for its disappearing message function. And other women we spoke to also said they chatted with him over Snapchat. And she says he also sent her texts that made her uncomfortable. As a 24-year-old who was just getting started off in politics, she talked about the power imbalance that was there, and she didn't really know what to do. She was afraid that if she said she didn't like it, that perhaps it could hurt her career, as she was just starting off, Kaitlan.

So, as I pointed out, she gave us corroborating information to back up her story, including text messages, one where he referred to her as a bad angel tempting him, and then inquired about pouring himself a nightcap.

So right here, I want to play her reaction, because she sat down with me just after the news broke, of Swalwell resigning from Congress.

COLLINS: Wow.

BROWN: So, I asked about this rapid fall from grace ever since she came forward to CNN, on Friday, with her story culminating in his resignation. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALLY SAMMARCO, SWALWELL ACCUSER, DEMOCRATIC CONTENT CREATOR: I think that it was a 100 percent the right thing for him to do. I think it should have been done even sooner, but I'm glad that he did it.

I don't think that putting him back into a congressional office would have been good for anybody. And I don't think those women in his office, or on Capitol Hill in general, should be around him for one more day. So, I am glad that they won't have to endure that and it's over for them.

He never should have ran for governor to begin with, knowing what he knows. And nobody else is responsible for what happened to him. Eric Swalwell is responsible for Eric Swalwell. Not the media, and definitely not the women.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: And Swalwell released a statement today on social media, saying he was resigning from Congress to get ahead of the expulsion vote, and he also admitted what he called mistakes in judgment that he had made in the past, of course, not specifying what those mistakes are, but he had previously said he had apologized to his wife.

He says he's going to fight the more serious allegations of sexual assault, which now we know the Manhattan D.A. is investigating.

So, you can catch more of her interview with me on our show in the morning, with Wolf Blitzer, on "THE SITUATION ROOM," starting at 10.

COLLINS: Yes. And we'll all be watching that. You've been doing great reporting on this, Pamela.

BROWN: Thank you. COLLINS: Thank you for joining us.

BROWN: It's a team effort, as you know, I get to -- shout out to Alli Gordon--

COLLINS: Yes.

BROWN: --Casey Tolan, and Isabelle Chapman as well. Thanks.

COLLINS: Yes, absolutely a team effort. We'll all be watching that tomorrow morning here on CNN.

And also tonight, my next guest was one of the several content creators who was bringing attention to these allegations, against Eric Swalwell. Arielle Fodor is known online as Mrs. Frazzled, and joins me now.

And I'm glad to have you here.

Because I saw your post from a few weeks ago, where you had talked about how this all kind of first came to your attention, as someone who's not this Washington insider, but as someone who got messages from people you knew with allegations about the Congressman.

ARIELLE FODOR, CONTENT CREATOR, FIRST BROUGHT ATTENTION TO ERIC SWALWELL ALLEGATIONS: Yes, and I mean, I am so thankful that he is stepping down and doing the right thing here. But the bottom line is, this never should have happened in the first place. And I am just so proud of the women, like Ally, who came forward. I know how much it takes, and I am just like in awe of them, like they are so courageous.

COLLINS: Can you talk about what it was like when you had first -- you had done an interview with him, and you had posted about it. And it was in response to that, that women had reached out to you, it sounds like, with similar stories, or that they had heard similar stories, to what Ally was just telling Pamela in that interview.

[21:30:00]

FODOR: Yes, at first when I was on, like, his creator launch call thing, I thought, Wow, really charismatic guy, very great on camera.

And then I had an interview scheduled with him. And he had posted a story, and I reposted it, just sharing that sentiment. And instantly, people started messaging me. I had three people say, Slow your roll. This is not a great guy. He is like -- Don't give him your phone number, he'll send you inappropriate messages. All types of things.

But I just, I mean, that is not normal. I interview a lot of politicians, and that is the first time ever that that's happened. So, I was gobsmacked, to be honest with you. I was like, What the heck is going on here?

COLLINS: What do you make of the reaction you got when you first shared this, and shared what you had heard, compared to how we got to where we are today, with Eric Swalwell saying he's going to resign his seat in Congress.

He's still saying he's going to fight these allegations. He's still denying some of them, and while acknowledging, clearly, as Pamela was saying, in that denial that he said, mistakes have been made.

What do you make though of what happened then, to where it culminated?

FODOR: Well, I never really set out to -- when I -- by the time I was posting, I was never thinking, Oh, this is going to be received very well.

Like, the goal always has been, just I need to essentially bang pots and pans on the internet, so that these women do not know -- or rather, the women know that they're not alone. They thought that they were the only ones this has happened to. They didn't know, in many cases, anybody else existed.

So, when that became more and more obvious to me, it was insanely easy to just completely block out what was going on, because I knew that the greater purpose was making women aware that there was support for them, that people would believe them, and that we were going to be a softer place to land as we possibly could, while they were able to tell their story and process it however they wanted to.

COLLINS: Yes.

Arielle Fodor, known as Mrs. Frazzled to me, it's great to have you, and thank you so much for taking the time to join us tonight here.

FODOR: Thanks for having me.

COLLINS: Yes, absolutely.

Up next here on THE SOURCE. In Washington, we are seeing the Vice President weigh in tonight on the President's feud with Pope Leo, what he says the Vatican needs to stick to, in his view.

[21:35:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Tonight, Vice President JD Vance is weighing in, as President Trump feuds with an American Pope who is deeply popular over a war that is not.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JD VANCE (R), U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: It would be best for the Vatican to stick to matters of morality, to stick to matters of, you know, what's going on in the Catholic Church, and let the President of the United States stick to dictating American public policy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Earlier, the Pope defended his comments and his purpose.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POPE LEO XIV, HEAD OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH: I have no fear of neither the Trump administration nor speaking out loudly about the message of the Gospel. And that's what I believe I am called to do, what the Church is called to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Now, this tension between the White House and the Vatican has been brewing for quite some time.

Both the President and the Defense Secretary, Pete Hegseth, have cast the war in Iran in religious terms.

As Pope Leo has weighed in with a different and pointed perspective.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Our capabilities are better. Our will is better. Our troops are better. The providence of our almighty God is there protecting those troops, and we're committed to this mission.

POPE LEO XIV (through translator): Brothers and sisters, this is our God, Jesus, Prince of Peace, who rejects war, whom no one can use to justify war.

HEGSETH: God is good. Despite incoming fire and unforgiving conditions, our troops brought every American home.

REPORTER: Do you believe that God supports the United States' actions in this war?

TRUMP: I do, because God is good.

REPORTER: And have you sought his direction?

TRUMP: Because God is good, and God wants to see people taken care of. God doesn't like what's happening.

POPE LEO XIV (through translator): May the madness of war cease, and Earth be cared for and cultivated by those who still know how to create, safeguard and love life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: My source tonight was a close colleague and friend of Pope Leo's. Father John Lydon joins me now.

And thank you, Father, for being here.

Obviously, you do know Pope Leo. I wonder if you could share with us why you think he's speaking out, the way that he is, on this war.

FATHER JOHN LYDON, FRIEND AND FORMER COLLEAGUE OF POPE LEO XIV: Well, good evening. It's pleasure to be with you. Yes, I know him very well, living with him in Peru. I think he's guided by the moral compass of the Gospel. That's what the Pope is supposed to do. He's fulfilling the role that Jesus gave to the Church, to preach the Gospel, and that's what he's doing. He's going to the basic moral principles of peace, of love of neighbor, of forgiveness, of reconciliation, of care for the poor and the migrants. All of those are themes of the Gospel.

[21:40:00]

And my experience living with the Pope in Peru, he's not going to back down on that. He's not going to get in the political muck, but he's not going to back down on the principle values of the Gospel, because that's what his responsibility is, to the Church and to God Himself.

COLLINS: Well, when you hear -- I mean, given that, and you talk about the Gospel and morality. I mean, the Vice President's response tonight, who obviously is a Catholic, he said that he believes the Vatican should, quote, Stick to matters of morality.

I mean, do you think anything that the Pope has said has gone beyond that?

LYDON: No. All of it is based on the moral perspective, I mean, look for the Church -- the Catholic Church is based on the moral perspective of Jesus Christ that He gives us. So, based on that, all issues of social consequence have a moral lens that you need to see through things. Politicians will not always agree with that moral lens.

But the Church's role is to remind the world, be a social conscience, to remind the world that there is a moral lens, there is a there is a law of love and peace and justice that supersedes the political agenda of any one day.

And that's what the Pope is reminding us of, to try to raise the moral consciousness, to start to rethink the power politics of our time, to rethink of them in moral terms. So, that's exactly what he's doing. He's talking about moral issues, and that's part of the Church's mission.

COLLINS: Do you think, as someone who knows him as well as you do, and lived with him in Peru, do you think he ever thought that he would find himself in this position, on the wrong side of the President who is going after him and saying, you know, that he's soft on crime, and all of the things that the President said today.

LYDON: Well, no, I'm not sure that he would have thought this would happen. But of course, a year ago, he didn't think he'd be Pope either.

COLLINS: True.

LYDON: But in Peru, we lived in the time of -- together, during the time of terrorism, and the authoritarian government, and violations of human rights. And he was in the main Plaza of our city, gathering signatures in defense of human rights, in the Plaza surrounded by government buildings. So, this is not somebody that just woke up and decided, Well, now is the time to speak about human rights. This is part of his identity, as a religious, as an Augustinian, the defense of human dignity.

And so, I don't think it has anything to do with President Trump or whoever might occupy the office at any one time. The moral principles are the same.

And as he stood in that Plaza, around in the city of Trujillo, surrounded by government buildings, filled with authoritarian government officials, looking -- defending human rights. That's what he's doing now as Pope.

So, as I say, he's going to continue to speak up based on the moral principles of the Church, because that's what's -- that's what he was elected to do. That's what all the Popes are supposed to do.

COLLINS: Yes.

Father John Lydon, it's great to have you here to join us tonight. And thank you for telling us that story. It's a fascinating story about him being in the center of that authoritarian area and still doing that regardless. So, thank you for joining us tonight.

LYDON: Well, it's a pleasure. And God bless you all.

COLLINS: Thank you so much, Father.

Up next. We do have more on the war on Iran, when it comes to what's happening in the Strait of Hormuz. Is this blockade going to work? What is the President's goal here? My top national security source will join me, right after a quick break.

[21:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Tonight, after leading the negotiations with Iran, Vice President JD Vance says it's up to Iran on whether or not there will be more talks.

We're now nearly 12 hours into the United States' military blockade on Iran's ports. As a U.S. official is telling CNN, the U.S. Navy has 15 ships at least, including an aircraft carrier and a 11 destroyers in the region to support this operation.

President Trump says that any Iranian ships that get close to the United States blockade will be, quote, "Immediately ELIMINATED."

And today, shipping data showed that at least one sanctioned oil tanker seemingly defied the blockade and passed through the Strait of Hormuz. And as we're reporting more on this tonight, I am joined now by David Sanger, who is The New York Times White House and National Security Correspondent.

I think, David, just based on the blockade, there are real questions about the success here, what this -- what the administration is trying to get out of this. Obviously, they want Iran to capitulate and come to the table.

But Iran, this is their biggest point of leverage in this moment right now.

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL & NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST, WHITE HOUSE & NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES, AUTHOR, "NEW COLD WARS": That's right. Well so, they're not going to give up either. And this is one of those lose-lose situations, Kaitlan.

So, the way it started was that the Iranians were letting their own ships out, but blocking those of any country that was affiliated with the U.S. or its war effort. The U.S. blockade is against all Iranian shipping, but it says -- it says they're going to let out all of the Gulf countries' ships to deliver.

[21:50:00]

So, you have basically two different blockades. One enforced by the U.S. Navy. One enforced, the Iranian one, enforced by the fear that a ship that went through too close to Iran might hit a mine, get hit by a shoulder-fired missile, a drone, something like that. So, the real question is, is anything going to come out?

COLLINS: Of this, and what that looks like.

And you know, we heard from the Vice President earlier today. He did this interview with Bret Baier. And he said something that I thought was really interesting, in terms of where he believes the talks could go from here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VANCE: The ball really is in their court. We've made clear where we're willing, again, to be accommodating, and we've made clear where we absolutely need to see the nuclear material come out of the country of Iran.

This is ultimately why we left Pakistan, because what we figured out is that they were unable, I think, the team that was there, was unable to cut a deal, and they had to go back to Tehran, either from the Supreme Leader or somebody else, and actually get approval to the terms that we had said.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: What do you make of that?

SANGER: Well, what a shock. They're negotiating with Iran. They sit down and they discover that the people they're negotiating with need to return, buy a little more time, and make a decision back and try. That was the story of the Obama administration's negotiations. That was the story of the Biden administration's negotiations. And it's now the story here.

So, what have we learned? Initially, Kaitlan, we thought that when he came out in Islamabad, and said, We couldn't reach agreement? That the U.S. position was, The Iranians can never enrich uranium again. But it turns out that what their demand was, was 20 years, that for 20 years you have to suspend--

COLLINS: So there's an asterisk on that?

SANGER: Right. Suspend. Right. And after 20 years, well, you know, lots going to happen between now and 20 years from now, then they may be able to enrich and go back.

That sounds a little bit like the deal that President Obama, the accord that President Obama signed or agreed to, there was no signed document during that time, and that President Trump got rid of in his first term, calling it one of the worst deals ever.

And the difference is that the Iranians, under the Obama era deal, were able to do some very limited amounts of enrichment, and the restrictions were lifted gradually, year by year, and by 2030, they were supposed to be gone.

Under what we understand is happening with Vice President Vance's negotiation, is that the Iranians would be prohibited from all nuclear activity until 20 years from now, 2046, so--

COLLINS: And what the Iranians had offered?

SANGER: Was three to five years, which doesn't buy you a whole lot. But it would have gotten you more suspension of all activity than you had during Obama's time.

Look, the history of the Iranian nuclear program has always been one of buying time, right? The Iranians have spent more time, trying to make a nuclear weapon than any country in history. The North Koreans did it faster. The Pakistanis, the Indians, the Israelis, all did it faster. The U.S. did it faster during World War II.

COLLINS: So, what's your biggest question, based on your reporting, in terms of where this stands tonight?

SANGER: So, there could be another meeting. It's good sign that neither side has said, We're done with negotiations.

Meanwhile, we're going to see if these pressure tactics in the Strait make any difference. My suspicion is that initially they won't make a lot of difference. But if the blockades go on, then it's going to become a contest in pain management. The Iranians think that President Trump can't take the pain of rising gas prices, as we approach the midterms. And the administration believes the Iranians can't take the pain of losing their biggest export. COLLINS: We'll see who is right.

David Sanger. Your reporting is always excellent. Thank you for joining us.

SANGER: Thank you, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: And up next here. The White House's McDonald's delivery took a bit of an awkward turn today. We'll explain to you, the scene that you're looking at here, right after this.

[21:55:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Nice to see you.

SHARON SIMMONS, DOORDASH DRIVER: Nice to meet you. I have your DoorDash order for you, Mr. President.

TRUMP: That's very nice.

Look at this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: That was a DoorDash delivery to the Oval Office, and an attempt by the White House to highlight the impact of President Trump's no-tax-on-tips policy.

But the visit also highlighted how the driver, Sharon Simmons, has been struggling, she says, to pay her husband's medical bills.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I understand your husband is going through treatment.

SIMMONS: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. He has cancer.

TRUMP: He's going through some very serious cancer treatments, so--

SIMMONS: Yes, sir.

TRUMP: --this goes a long way.

SIMMONS: Yes, sir, it sure does.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[22:00:00]

COLLINS: But when the President, at times, tried to turn the conversation to other issues, this happened.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Do you think that men should play in women's sports?

SIMMONS: I really don't have an opinion on that.

TRUMP: You don't? I'll bet you do.

SIMMONS: No. No.

TRUMP: Oh.

SIMMONS: I'm here about--

TRUMP: Pizza.

SIMMONS: --no tax on tips.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: She was on message.

Thank you so much for joining us here tonight.

"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.