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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Pope Slams Those Who "Manipulate Religion" For Military Gain; Gabbard Sends Criminal Referral Over Trump's 2019 Impeachment; CNN Projects Dem Analilia Mejia Wins NJ Special House Election. Aired 9- 10p ET
Aired April 16, 2026 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SARAH WILDMAN, STAFF EDITOR AND WRITER AT NEW YORK TIMES OPINION: -- the expression, I can only imagine, is a little bit better than, I can't.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: You can listen to the full conversation, All There Is, on the AllThereIs website, CNN.com/AllThereIs, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's a really beautiful and moving conversation.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Tonight. What the President told me when I asked him today, Why are you fighting with the Pope?
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
There's a long and winding history of friction between Presidents and Popes, over matters of morality. But it's hard to think of a clash of church and state in our lifetimes like what we are witnessing right now, between the current American president and the first American Pope.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Mr. President, why are you fighting with the Pope? And are you worried it's upsetting your Evangelical supporters and Catholic supporters?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: No, no, I don't -- I have to do what's right. The Pope has to understand that. Very simple. I have nothing against the Pope. His brother is MAGA all the way. I like his brother, really.
COLLINS: But why are you fighting with him then?
D. TRUMP: I'm not fighting with him. The Pope made a statement. He says, Iran can have a nuclear weapon.
I say, Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon.
COLLINS: He didn't say that.
D. TRUMP: And if the Pope looked at the 42,000 people that were killed, over the last two or three months, as a protestor with no weapons, no nothing, I mean, you take a look at that. So, I could disagree with the Pope. I have a right to--
COLLINS: But he didn't say Iran should have a nuclear weapon.
D. TRUMP: --I have a right to disagree with the Pope.
COLLINS: But he didn't say Iran should have a nuclear weapon, Mr. President.
D. TRUMP: You can't have -- look, nothing, I have no disagreement with the fact. The Pope can say what he wants, and I want him to say what he wants. But I can disagree.
I think that Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon. If they do, the whole world would be in jeopardy. The Middle East will be blown up, and the whole world will be in jeopardy. We're very close to making a deal. That will be a great thing.
The Pope has to understand, Iran has killed more than 42,000 people over the last few months. Think of it. Protesters, without guns, without anything. They were totally unarmed protesters. The Pope has to understand that. This is the real world. It's a nasty world. But as far as the Pope and saying what he wants, he can do that.
Now, I know the Pope's brother. He is a big MAGA person. He's got MAGA all over his house. His name is Louis. He's actually a great guy. And I'm sure the Pope is a great guy. I haven't met him. But I disagree with the Pope. If the Pope would allow Iran to have a nuclear weapon, you can't do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: No, the Pope has not said that Iran should be able to have a nuclear weapon. What the Pope has said is that making threats of wiping out a civilian population is, quote, Unacceptable, as he has urged leaders to reject war and prioritize diplomacy instead.
My colleague, Rachel Scott, today, followed up by asking the President about a prominent group of bishops who actually came to the Pope's defense, and said that Leo isn't just exercising his opinion here. He's preaching the Gospel.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
D. TRUMP: But the Pope has to understand Iran -- very simple. Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon.
Well, I want him to preach the Gospel. I'm all about the Gospel. But I also know that you cannot let a certain country, which is a very mean- spirited country, have a nuclear weapon.
So, you know, the Pope could disagree with me on that, but certainly we're allowed to have that. I'm all about the Gospel. I'm about it as much as anybody can be. But I can't allow, as President of the United States of America, I can't allow Iran to have a nuclear weapon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The Pope has repeatedly warned about the danger of nuclear weapons, and actually called for a world that is free from a nuclear threat.
Rather than retreating from the President's ire this week, as Pope Leo has been out in the world, this time on a visit to Africa, he didn't back down from his message and instead said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POPE LEO XIV, HEAD OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH: Jesus told us, Blessed are the peacemakers, but woe to those who manipulate religion in the very name of God for their own military, economic or political gain, dragging that which is sacred into darkness and filth.
The masters of war pretend not to know that it takes only a moment to destroy. Yet often, a lifetime is often not enough to rebuild. They turn a blind eye to the fact that billions of dollars are spent on killing, on devastation.
The world is being ravaged by a handful of tyrants, yet is held together by a multitude of supportive brothers and sisters.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:05:00]
COLLINS: It's not unusual for Popes to speak out, actually, about American politics, or just whatever is happening in the world.
Pope Francis repeatedly criticized President Trump's border wall in his first term. Pope Paul VI used his first papal address at the United Nations to call for an end to the Vietnam War. John Paul II spoke against the U.S. invasion of Iraq, and disagreed with Bill Clinton on abortion, and pushed George W. Bush to reject stem cell research.
What is unusual is the ferocity of the reaction from President Trump, who is taking the Pope's comments as a personal attack on him.
The Pope warning against using religion to justify war, also comes on a day that here in Washington, Secretary Hegseth compared reporters, legacy media, as he described it, to the Pharisees, a biblical group that is associated with hypocrisy, who plotted against Jesus.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Our press are just like these Pharisees -- not all of you, not all of you, but the legacy Trump- hating press. Your politically-motivated animus for President Trump nearly completely blinds you from the brilliance of our American warriors. The Pharisees scrutinized every good act in order to find a violation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That was from the press conference this morning at the Pentagon.
In the hours since, I actually heard some surprise, even from allies of this administration, by the comparison that Secretary Hegseth made there. My colleague, Dana Bash, noted earlier that Hegseth is comparing reporters, scrutinizing the war, or asking questions about it, or not covering it the way that they would like for it to be covered, to attacks on Jesus and the Bible.
Now, of course, as this has continued, and you've seen these comments from Secretary Hegseth. It's worth noting that this is far from the first time that the Secretary has invoked faith when speaking about this war.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HEGSETH: Tens of thousands of sorties, refuelings, and strikes carried out under the protection of divine providence, a massive effort with miraculous protection.
Blessed be the Lord, my rock, who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle.
Give them wisdom in every decision, endurance for the trial ahead, unbreakable unity, and overwhelming violence of action against those who deserve no mercy.
Flown out of Iran as the sun was rising on Easter Sunday. A pilot reborn, all home and accounted for, a nation rejoicing. God is good.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: At a Pentagon church service yesterday, there was also a moment that raised some eyebrows. The Defense Secretary said that he wanted to share a prayer that troops in the field had passed along to him, and he started to recite it.
As you'll hear, he notes that it's inspired by scripture. But what he didn't say is that it also echoes a famous Hollywood monolog.
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HEGSETH: They call it CSAR 25:17, which I think is meant to reflect Ezekiel 25:17.
SAMUEL L. JACKSON, ACTOR, "PULP FICTION": (As Jules Winnfield): Ezekiel 25:17. The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. HEGSETH: The path of the downed aviator is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
L. JACKSON: (As Jules Winnfield): I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger, those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord, when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
HEGSETH: And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger, those who attempt to capture and destroy my brother. And you will know my call sign is Sandy One, when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Putting that aside. Prayers for those who are brave enough to serve in the United States' military are old as the nation itself. It was President Ronald Reagan, though, in 1984 who issued this warning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RONALD REAGAN, 40TH U.S. PRESIDENT: I've said that we must be cautious in claiming God is on our side. I think the real question we must answer is, are we on His side?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My first source tonight is Father Edward Beck, who's a longtime voice on faith and culture, and the Chaplain at Manhattan University.
And thank you sir, for being here, Father.
I just wonder, I mean, in this remarkable moment and how this is playing out, how you see this back and forth with the Pope and the President being perceived by those that you serve?
[21:10:00]
FATHER EDWARD BECK, CHAPLAIN, MANHATTAN UNIVERSITY: Well, I think they're upset by it, Kaitlan, and rightly so.
I mean, just listen to that sound that we heard from the Secretary of Defense Hegseth. He used the "Pulp Fiction" Tarantino's speech, of a hit man's death speech, a movie killer's prayer, to bless military action at an official Pentagon worship service. I mean, what is going on here?
I mean, this is precisely what Pope Leo condemned this morning in Cameroon, almost word for word, Using God for your own purposes. To say, God is on our side. The war is holy. The President is a healer. The Scripture strikes with vengeance. Leo said it today. He said, Woe to you if you say it.
And so, I think that Catholics are recognizing that, and they're upset by it. Not only Catholics. I hear a lot of people, Jews, Christians, talking to me, saying, What is going on with this president? He's gone off the rails with this. And why is he picking the Pope to have this battle with?
COLLINS: I mean, do you -- can you understand any explanation in it, when you hear that, and you hear what he told us today on the South Lawn of the White House?
BECK: Well, you know what the First Commandment is, right, Kaitlan? Thou shalt not have false gods before me. And we all remember that AI image from not too long ago, where it seemed as though the President was presenting himself as Jesus. Well, people said, That was blasphemous.
So, why would a President do this? I mean, he said, Well, I was only a doctor. And then his representative said, Well, he was joking. Well, which is it, and why would you do it? Except that he has to keep the spotlight on him. But instead, you have Pope Leo, in Cameroon, who's really shining the spotlight on what needs to be shown on.
And so, I think, you have a country there, where a decade of separatists war has left children out of school, families displaced, homes burned. I mean, Leo is not tweeting about it. He's standing in it. And I think that's the startling part of this. I think the President, in this context, is making himself look even smaller by focusing in very petty way on the issues that he is.
COLLINS: And the Pope, I mean, I feel like this goes without saying, he did not say that Iran can have a nuclear weapon.
I do want people to listen though, to what the Pope did say, just last month.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POPE LEO XIV: Lord, enlighten the leaders of the nations, so that they may have the courage to abandon projects of death, halt the arms race, and place the lives of the most vulnerable at the center. May the nuclear threat never again dictate the future of humanity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean, I think actually, when you look at his past comments, he's been very clear-cut on where he stands on nuclear weapons, whether it's about what's happening in Iran, and what we're seeing play out, over the last several weeks, or, last summer, when he was marking the anniversary of the United States bombing Japan. He was saying that this is something that offends shared humanity, it betrays the dignity of creation. I mean, his stance is very clear on this long before this war with Iran began.
BECK: And so has the stance of the Catholic Church. It's always been against nuclear proliferation, I mean.
But Trump has reduced the Pope's entire moral witness to this bumper sticker, that somehow he wants Iran to have the bomb, and I think it's because he can't seem to engage in the actual argument, which is that, I don't know, a Quentin Tarantino hit man's murder speech is a valid theological reflection of Holy Scripture? That leading troops in prayer at an official worship service is appropriate?
And they won't even say it was a mistake. I mean, they're defending it. And I just think that it means this administration has chosen this language, rather than really the spiritual framework that the Gospel calls us to.
And Leo said this morning that people are dragging the name of God into darkness and filth. And I think Hegseth handed him that exhibit, that that is exactly what's being done.
COLLINS: Yes, I think The New York Times, as you put it there, I mean, they write tonight, The Trump administration has sought to portray its war in Iran as a "just war" backed by the will of God and Jesus Christ. Pope Leo has stridently disagreed, saying previously that Jesus "Does not listen to the prayers of those who wage war."
BECK: I think that's exactly true. Jesus was a peacemaker. What Jesus said was, Blessed are the peacemakers.
When Peter draws his sword in the Garden of Gethsemane, what does Jesus say? He's on his way to death, and Jesus knows it. It's a capital punishment execution. And Jesus says, Put away your sword.
[21:15:00]
The answer to violence, especially this heinous kind of violence, is not more violence. The message is very clear. It's always been clear, as far as Jesus was concerned. But why people want to manipulate this, I think, is if you get God on your side, or you say This is justified, or somehow, Just? Then, you try to make a moral argument over something that is totally baseless.
And so, I just think if you get back to the Scripture, look at who Jesus was, what he did, who he welcomed, I think you'd get the answer, and it's not what we're seeing now from this administration.
COLLINS: Father Beck, thank you for joining us tonight. I appreciate you taking the time to do so.
BECK: Thanks for having me.
COLLINS: My political sources are here tonight.
Scott Jennings, who worked with Senator Mitch McConnell, and President George W. Bush.
And Ashley Etienne, who worked with the Vice President Kamala Harris, and Speaker Nancy Pelosi.
Scott. What do you make of what the Father said? I think he made some compelling arguments there.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO MITCH MCCONNELL, FORMER SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH, HOST, "THE SCOTT JENNINGS RADIO SHOW" ON SRN: Yes, I would counter and say that A, we're not a theocracy in the United States, although our Commanders-in-Chief and military leaders often pray to God for success in battle, it's happened since George Washington knelt in the snow at Valley Forge.
We aren't a theocracy. We have separation of church and state. It may be that the American Left is trying to turn us into a theocracy, which would be quite a development.
But he's a President of the United States, which is a political office. The Pope is a faith leader. Those are two different things. And they have had some disagreements, Presidents and Popes in the past.
I mean, I think of Dwight Eisenhower's Order of the Day, D-Day, 1944. Let us beseech the blessing of Almighty God upon this great and noble undertaking.
I think every American believes that our invasion of France was a great and noble undertaking, and that it was fully appropriate for Eisenhower to ask God to support our just and noble cause.
The President believes that it is a righteous, noble, moral cause to keep these fanatics in Iran from having a nuclear weapon. And that is the -- that is the decision he's made, as a political officer of the United States.
COLLINS: And I think if the Pope had just made these comments in Cameroon, talking about separatists there, this would not be leading the show tonight.
I think it's the personal fight that he's gotten in with the Pope, where he's going after him and putting quotes in his mouth that the Pope didn't say. I mean, that was -- I mean, it's not hard to fact- check that the Pope did not say Iran should have a nuclear weapon.
ASHLEY ETIENNE, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, VP HARRIS, FORMER ADVISER TO NANCY PELOSI: Yes. I mean, for me, it's less about that, and it's more about what the Pope said, which is this manipulation of religion.
I don't blame Trump. I blame these evangelicals, these religious leaders, that have enabled the President's behavior, that have promoted him to near-deification of the President. That's really the problem. So, I'm not surprised or shocked that he would depict himself as Jesus, because they've elevated him to that point. Paula White was at the White House, and compared him several times to Jesus Christ. I mean, that is blasphemy in and of itself.
But here's the thing. They're going to have to reconcile their own faith, with this administration that is conducting and governing itself very much antithetical to Christian tenets. Cutting Medicare, cutting SNAP, cutting housing, separating families -- children from their families, igniting a war across the Middle East. None of that aligns with Christian tenets. And so, my question really is, who's going to stop Donald Trump? If it's not morality and it's not the Supreme Court? Much more devastating is going to happen.
COLLINS: You seemed to raise your eyebrows when she was talking about the--
JENNINGS: Well they're--
COLLINS: --people around the President.
But can I -- can I -- can we listen to what the Republican Congressman--
JENNINGS: Sure.
COLLINS: --Troy Nehls actually said today about this.
JENNINGS: Sure.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. TROY NEHLS (R-TX): I believe that Donald Trump is better than sliced bread. I think he's almost the second coming, in my humble opinion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean, that does come after Pastor Paula White last week was--
ETIENNE: People--
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: --was also saying similar things to the President at the White House.
JENNINGS: Yes, look, I don't -- I don't mistake political leaders and my religious views. I try to keep those things separate, and I don't deify political leaders.
ETIENNE: But people -- people vote on abortion--
JENNINGS: And I don't -- I don't necessarily look to them.
ETIENNE: --that they're conflating--
JENNINGS: I--
ETIENNE: --their political beliefs with their religious beliefs. That happens every day in America. I mean, look--
JENNINGS: Sure. But I'm just answering the specific question, which is, no, I don't, you know, I don't -- I don't find American political leaders to necessarily be infallible or the best paragons of virtue when it comes to religion. I will tell you this. You asked, why is this Christian, or why is this moral? I mean, there is a CBS--
ETIENNE: No, I didn't ask that question.
JENNINGS: --there is a -- there is a CBS News poll out. Catholics who go to church every week give the President a 58 percent approval rating right now. So, the Catholic Church is a--
COLLINS: Was that taken before or after he got in a fight with the Pope?
JENNINGS: Well, I mean, it's April 8th through the 10th, so it's happening during the war, which is what the fight is about.
COLLINS: Then it's before his argument with the Pope as well--
ETIENNE: Right.
JENNINGS: OK. Well, look, my point is this. The Catholic Church and Christianity at large is a broad spectrum of people. I mean, you had your boss, Joe Biden, in the White House. I mean, he believed in abortion, believed in gay marriage, not doctrine Catholic teachings either.
[21:20:00]
So, there's a broad spectrum of political views among people who are practicing Christians and practicing Catholics. There's nothing unusual about that. But ultimately, you looked at the President of the United States to act in the best interest of the nation. And sometimes, they pray to God for support and help with military battles.
COLLINS: Yes.
JENNINGS: Sometimes, they're in agreement with religious leaders, and sometimes they aren't. But we have a secular government for a reason. We're not a theocracy.
COLLINS: Scott, what is your take? I mean, because I did hear from people at the White House today, after Secretary Hegseth's press conference. I mean, he spends a good deal of time, attacking the press. I mean, I don't think that's surprising. But comparing the press to Pharisees today?
JENNINGS: Yes, look, my personal advice and view is, it's over the top. It's unnecessary. I tend to agree with him that there are a lot of people in the press and on the American Left who are appear to be rooting for bad outcomes. I don't disagree with him. He doesn't need to cast it in these terms, in my view, he doesn't need to be over the top about it.
And I also think the American military's performance speaks for itself. It's been nothing short of brilliant.
And by the way, the President today also said that he thought the blockade that he had put in place was even more effective than the wartime activities that we were engaged in.
COLLINS: Yes.
JENNINGS: And we're in a moment right now. The blockade is working. We're in a ceasefire. There's a chance to bring this regime to its knees, take away their nuclear weapons, and make the world a safer place.
I would hope that everybody, the Pope and anyone else, would look at this as an opportunity, to pressure them and bring them to their knees and take away their ability to continue to kill people in the Middle East and around the world, and have weapons that would kill millions worldwide.
COLLINS: Is that how you see it?
ETIENNE: You know? I mean, where do you start with this thing? I mean, I think the question is, what do you -- what can you believe from this president? You know, the lies. You know, he perpetuates lies. I mean, none of his reality is grounded in truth.
I mean, we're in a situation now, where he's made a bad situation even worse. I mean, what is the objective now? Was it regime change? Because that's not happened. Was it the nuclear weapons? Because we're not even talking about that anymore. Somehow we're focused--
JENNINGS: Yes, we are.
ETIENNE: Somehow we're focused on--
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: It's literally, the only thing we're negotiating over.
ETIENNE: Who knows if there is even a negotiation, who's believing--
JENNINGS: You're doubting? The Vice President went--
ETIENNE: Absolutely I'm--
JENNINGS: --went to Pakistan.
ETIENNE: Absolutely I'm doubting -- I'm--
JENNINGS: You believe the administration lied that JD Vance flew to Pakistan to negotiate with the Iranians?
ETIENNE: But the point is he left Pakistan with nothing--
JENNINGS: No, no. Are you saying that was a lie? Was that a fabricated--
(CROSSTALK)
ETIENNE: The point is he left with nothing in hand. That is the point.
JENNINGS: And we're about to negotiate again.
ETIENNE: So, my point is I'm not -- I'm not sure what we're defining as negotiation.
JENNINGS: They will not have a nuclear weapon.
ETIENNE: The point is--
JENNINGS: Period. That is the goal.
ETIENNE: --we had a deal in place. The President came into office and undermined the plan that Obama put in place. So now--
JENNINGS: It allowed nuclear enrichment.
ETIENNE: --now we're in a situation, where there's all these unknowns. There's incredible implications. We're in energy -- global energy crisis, gas, gasoline is up. We're at a situation now where we've never in--
JENNINGS: We're not in a crisis.
ETIENNE: Yes, we are. And never in our nation's history have we had such high distrust from our allies and our foes alike. We're in a bind with no sort of clarity on where this thing is headed. And so, that's the major concern, is that who knows what to believe and who knows what's next with this president?
JENNINGS: I find it incredible that you're doubting that JD Vance flew to Pakistan, or that we're actively engaged--
ETIENNE: I didn't say I doubted that he--
JENNINGS: --in diplomacy right now.
ETIENNE: --he flew there. I said he walked away with nothing in hand.
JENNINGS: The bottom -- the bottom line is this.
ETIENNE: And that has been consistent with JD Vance--
JENNINGS: We have a goal. We have a goal.
ETIENNE: --and this administration.
JENNINGS: We have a goal. They're not going to have nuclear weapons. And the blockade is working, and we're costing them hundreds of millions of dollars a day. The--
ETIENNE: And we're also costing the American people hundreds of millions of dollars every day.
JENNINGS: No, we're not.
ETIENNE: I paid six bucks for gas just yesterday.
JENNINGS: Were you in California?
ETIENNE: No, I was here in D.C.
JENNINGS: OK.
ETIENNE: I was in Virginia. Yes.
JENNINGS: Oh, another -- another blue area.
ETIENNE: And I was in -- no, I was in Virginia, which is--
JENNINGS: Congrats.
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: I should note, it is about--
JENNINGS: A blue area.
COLLINS: --five bucks in Nevada, where the President is tonight, talking about no tax on tips.
ETIENNE: Exactly.
COLLINS: Ashley Etienne. Scott Jennings.
ETIENNE: Thank you.
COLLINS: Thanks for both of you for being here, and for Father Beck as well.
Up next. The President's Director of National Intelligence did something that you should be paying attention to. She said a criminal referral to the Justice Department, when it comes to Trump's impeachment from his first term in office.
And also, we have breaking news here tonight, as we have just called the race in New Jersey's special election. House Speaker Mike Johnson will be paying attention to this one, I promise.
[21:25:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, CNN has confirmed that the Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard has sent at least one criminal referral to the Department of Justice, seeking investigations into the whistleblower report that led to President Trump's first impeachment in 2019. Gabbard is also accusing the former watchdog Michael Atkinson of not following policy in the handling of that whistleblower complaint.
It all stems from that infamous first-term phone call that the President had with then-little-known Ukraine's President, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, in which President Trump asked Zelenskyy to investigate then-presidential candidate Joe Biden and his family. That conversation on the phone led to a whistleblower complaint, which was then sent to Capitol Hill, where the President ultimately faced two articles of impeachment for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress.
The fiery impeachment trial hearings consumed the world for weeks, the political world at least. And the House voted to impeach President Trump. But the Senate, as we know, ultimately voted against his conviction.
Now, some seven years later, Gabbard has released hundreds of documents, hoping to bolster that referral to the Justice Department, that she claims expose a quote, Conspiracy by Congress to impeach President Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TULSI GABBARD, DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: The whistleblower, so-called whistleblower, who came forward, presented no evidence and no firsthand knowledge.
This is a person who had heard about a conversation that President Trump had with Zelenskyy, then went straight to Adam Schiff on the House Intelligence Committee, and this is where they came up with this false narrative. And this so-called whistleblower then went and filed a complaint with the Intelligence Community Inspector General.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:30:00]
COLLINS: Now my colleague, Evan Perez, pored through all the documents, and said the evidence that Gabbard is presenting doesn't provide much detail or specifics to support her claims.
And of course, in regards to the impeachment itself, the White House published the transcript of that letter at the time, everyone could read it, before the President was impeached.
My top legal and intelligence sources are here. They include:
The former FBI Deputy Director, Andrew McCabe.
And the former Deputy Assistant Attorney General, Tom Dupree.
Have either of you ever seen anything like this?
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST, FORMER FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: No, because there's never been anything like this before. I mean, this defies the entire concept of the criminal referral.
Criminal referrals are sent by agency heads to the department all the time, and it usually includes something like we've come across information that an employee of ours has been mishandling classified, or something like that, and we think they may have violated the following statute. You hand it over to DOJ, and they take it from there.
Here, the DNI cannot even say what violation, what criminal law she thinks might have been violated. It's not really a referral of anything.
COLLINS: I mean, if the DOJ gets this? Which, to be fair, they're getting a lot of criminal referrals these days that seem to not be on a road to anywhere. What would happen with this? What's your sense and your read of this, Tom?
TOM DUPREE, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: In more traditional times, what would happen is you would assign it to one of those senior eminence grises at the Justice Department, someone who has been there through bipartisan administrations, and is viewed as a credible actor who can make these difficult, legal and political calls.
I'm not sure how many people of those, that ilk, are still at the Justice Department. And so, one concern would be that the person making the review, and deciding whether or not to open an investigation, and ultimately begin a prosecution, is someone who would be motivated by political concerns. That is the danger here.
I think it's going to be difficult for the Justice Department to approach this referral, in a spirit of bipartisanship and neutrality, given just the politicized context in which this has occurred.
COLLINS: If you make a referral, does it typically say what law you think was broken?
DUPREE: Usually it would, or at least it would give you a strong hint.
COLLINS: OK--
DUPREE: In other words, someone said something wrong before Congress.
But here she just says, Here's the constellation of facts. Find the crime, Justice Department.
COLLINS: So Gabbard was asked, what law does she think was broken? This is what she said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GABBARD: I'm leaving it up to the lawyers and the Department of Justice to take a look at this and to determine the specific legal parameters. But it was important for us to refer this along with all of the information that we have, so that the Department of Justice can do exactly that and investigate it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean, I do think that raises questions, at the next Cabinet meeting, what happens, when they haven't been able to say what law was broken, because they don't know what law was broken.
MCCABE: Yes, it's a bit of a hot potato that she's now dumped in DOJ's lap, to try to figure out what to do with all this information.
But the information she actually turned over, if you look at the -- what her office has put out in the last few days, it doesn't actually say anything beyond that, they believe that Atkinson violated some unidentified policy, because he only spoke to four people in his duty to confirm that the whistleblower's report was actually, imagine -- a matter of urgent concern, and that it was credible.
Well, that seems like nothing more than a dispute over the process. And if anything, even if Atkinson did something wrong? This is just like an internal work performance issue. It doesn't make it criminal. Doesn't mean Michael Atkinson committed a crime.
COLLINS: If someone at home, I mean, is watching this and saying, why -- how could this affect things going forward? I mean, it could actually affect whistleblowers in this government right now. Would it not?
DUPREE: Well, it sure would. Because the whole idea, the reason why we have the structure with whistleblowers that make the initial report to the Inspector General, is precisely so that the agency can make an internal assessment, about whether something went wrong here, and if they think there may be a possibility that then triggers the obligation to report to Congress.
But if you have a regime, in which whistleblowers get punished, I.G.s get punished, I.G.s get prosecuted? I think what happens then is no one is going to want to use the system.
MCCABE: Yes.
DUPREE: No one is going to want to report something. No one is going to want to be a whistleblower. No one is going to want to be an Inspector General. And frankly, I think what it would lead to is people reporting these things anonymously. Maybe they go to the media, maybe they take it to The New York Times or to CNN, instead of reporting it to the Inspector General, in which case their name will be put in the system and possibly become a target for prosecution.
COLLINS: Which is the entire point. I mean, this is why Jimmy Carter signed this into law--
MCCABE: Of course.
COLLINS: --is that so these watchdogs would exist, so that there would be this avenue for people to, instead of taking these issues to the press--
DUPREE: Exactly.
COLLINS: --that they could be handled within the government, within Congress, within the executive branch.
MCCABE: Yes, 1998, the Intelligence Community Whistleblower Act amended Carter's foundational law to include this process, specifically for people in the Intelligence Community, for the purpose of allowing them to transmit matters of classified intelligence to Congress. There's a process for that. They go through the I.G. If the I.G. doesn't see it their way, they can then go directly to Congress.
[21:35:00]
But let's not forget, this is an administration that fires I.G.s they don't like, removes them before their terms are up, replaces them with political loyalists. It's an administration that's engaged in mass terminations and forced resignations of people throughout government. This is not a time when people in government feel empowered and protected, to stand up and point out malfeasance, and that is a very dangerous thing for the country.
COLLINS: Yes.
Tom Dupree. Andrew McCabe. Great to have you both here tonight. Thank you for breaking that all down for us.
And also up next, as I mentioned, what Speaker Mike Johnson is paying attention to tonight, that slim majority Republicans have in Congress. He had somewhat of a breathing room for a few days. Now, it's about to get slimmer again. Harry Enten is here with his special election results.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:40:00]
COLLINS: Breaking news tonight, as CNN can now project that the progressive Democrat Analilia Mejia will win the House special election to fill, now-Governor Mikie Sherrill's seat in New Jersey. The decisive victory tonight against the Republican, former Mayor Joe Hathaway, came just a couple of minutes after the polls closed across the state.
And Mejia's win is further eroding Speaker Mike Johnson's historically narrow House majority that he has here in Washington. That's because once she is sworn in, Johnson will only be able to afford a single Republican defection on party-line votes to pass legislation. Not exactly the news he wants to hear tonight.
On the numbers, though, I want to bring in CNN's Chief Data Analyst, Harry Enten.
And Harry, what are you looking at, when you look at her victory tonight?
HARRY ENTEN, CNN CHIEF DATA ANALYST: Yes, I'll tell you what I'm looking at. Kamala Harris won that district, won New Jersey's 11th district. I love the ice cream in that district, I'll tell you, all so many great places to go, you know.
But bottom line is this. Kamala Harris won that district by nine points. But right now we obviously see, we see that Mejia is way out ahead. But that is not surprising me, because it's part of a larger picture. Look, we are now talking about seven special elections. And in every single one of them that we've had during the second Trump era, the Democratic candidates for the House have outrun the Kamala Harris baseline. You know, Florida 1, last year, I remember you and I were together, 23 points. 16 points in Florida 6. Virginia 11, 17 points. Arizona 7, 17 points. Tennessee 7, 13 points. Georgia 14, 25 points.
And while there are still votes to be counted here in New Jersey's 11th district, I will say, at this point, we're probably looking at an overperformance of at least 10 points, when all the votes are said and done.
So, seven special elections, and in every single one of them, the Democratic district for the House of Representative has outperformed Kamala Harris' baseline by at least 10 points.
COLLINS: OK, so -- also, this is a state where, we know suburban voters make up a pretty big share of the electorate. The President got to the White House by having more ground in the suburbs. You talked about Harris' numbers. What do the numbers show on that now in this moment?
ENTEN: Yes, absolute disaster. Absolute disaster.
New Jersey 11, to me, is part -- is very much part of a trend. What are we talking about in the polling data? Well, we can see it right here. Just take a look here. You talk about suburban voters on Trump. You look at Fox News polling. Back in October of 2024 versus Kamala Harris. Look at that. Donald Trump was leading by two points.
You come to this side of the screen. Look at how far down he's gone. His net approval rating now, 20 points underwater among registered voters who are in the suburbs, suburban registered voters. So, we are talking about an over 20 point shift.
So, what we see in New Jersey 11, to me, is going to be seen throughout the nation, come this fall, if these numbers hold.
COLLINS: OK. So, while we're looking at what's happening in New Jersey, what caught my eye in New York today was this attack by the President on Mayor Mamdani, which, you know, maybe if I said that a year ago wouldn't be that surprising. But obviously, they've had a pretty cordial relationship. The President has taken a liking to him. Today, he said he's destroying the city with his new tax policy, going after wealthy people who own property, but don't actually live in the city.
What do you make of that attack, and how do New Yorkers feel about the President's sentiment that he's destroying the city?
ENTEN: You know, I'll tell you, as a New Yorker, I was so jealous of talking about New Jersey and Curly's (ph) ice cream. Let's talk about Carvel, New York, and let's talk about New York City.
Look, Donald Trump is out to lunch on this, at least when it comes to New York City voters, because you can see it right here. Just take a look here. New York City voters who say Mamdani is a good leader for New York City, we're talking about 60 percent of them. What about New York City is going in the right direction? 55 percent of New York City voters say that.
So, maybe Donald Trump is just jealous because Zohran Mamdani is far better-liked in New York City than Donald Trump is, or than Donald Trump is in New Jersey's 11th district, or than Donald Trump is among the suburbs, or than Donald Trump is in the United States as a whole. New Yorkers like the direction Mamdani is taking the city in. Donald Trump, they don't really care what he has to say.
COLLINS: Harry Enten, thank you for that, filling us in tonight.
ENTEN: Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next. Of course, the world watched as they made history. Now we get to hear from the astronauts on Artemis II, what were their most memorable moments in space.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REID WISEMAN, ARTEMIS II COMMANDER: When the Sun eclipsed behind the Moon, I think all four of us -- I turned to Victor and I said, I don't think humanity has evolved to the point of being able to comprehend what we are looking at right now. Because it was otherworldly, and it was amazing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, we're hearing from the Artemis II crew for the first time since they successfully returned to Earth, following a historic mission to the Moon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WISEMAN: When the Sun eclipsed behind the Moon, I think all four of us -- I turned to Victor and I said, I don't think humanity has evolved to the point of being able to comprehend what we are looking at right now.
VICTOR GLOVER, ARTEMIS II PILOT: What I've come to realize is we did what we said we were going to do.
WISEMAN: Yes.
GLOVER: And now we've got to step out and just face that reality. And so, that's a great thing.
[21:50:00]
CHRISTINA KOCH, ARTEMIS II MISSION SPECIALIST: When my husband looked me in the eye on that video call and said, No, really, you've made a difference, it brought tears to my eyes, and I said, That's all we ever wanted.
JEREMY HANSEN, ARTEMIS II MISSION SPECIALIST: The sense I had was the sense of fragility and feeling small, infinitesimally small. But yet, this very powerful feeling as a human being, like as a group.
I saw it in all these sites, over and over again. I kept seeing that same thing and that same feeling. Small and powerless, but yet powerful together.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And my source tonight is Bill Nye, the Science Guy, and the Chief Ambassador of The Planetary Society.
First off, I love this crew so much. Like, listening to that press conference today was so fascinating. Just to hear all of their experiences, the way they talked about it, in the bigger picture, smaller picture.
What was your takeaway from what you heard from them in their first press conference?
BILL NYE, THE SCIENCE GUY, CHIEF AMBASSADOR, THE PLANETARY SOCIETY: It's what every -- I mean, my takeaway is what, every astronaut feels only a lot more so. This is historic, getting back to the Moon, it's fantastic, and it's really good for the United States. It's good for NASA writ large. And there will be discoveries made--
COLLINS: Yes.
NYE: --that will affect all of us.
COLLINS: Well, and Reid Wiseman was talking about the ultimate, like, goal here, to go back to the Moon, to build this base of what this is ultimately going to look like. Here's how the Commander was talking about in terms of, he said it wasn't the leap he thought it was.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WISEMAN: It is not the leap I thought it was. It's going to be extremely technically challenging, but this team needs to show up every day, knowing it is absolutely doable, and it's doable soon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: So, maybe that's not surprising to you. But some people might hear that and say, Is it more achievable than people realize? What's your sense?
NYE: Well, it's, I think it's definitely achievable. And it's like Antarctica, only more so. I mean, people have been there. People -- the rockets are getting cheaper and cheaper. We're flying them more and more frequently. There are serious technical problems that need to be solved. And there, as I say, there will be discoveries. People will learn more about water ice, about these minerals we don't see on the Earth's surface. And hope is not a plan, but it is a hope that by looking, especially at the far side of the Moon, you'll see the tremendous number of impact craters, and that will remind us of the dangers of living in the solar system. Well, as we say, an asteroid impact is low probability, but high consequence.
COLLINS: Yes, exactly.
NYE: So, just looking at the far side of the Moon, you really are reminded of how often planets with gravity get impacted.
COLLINS: Yes. I mean, just in terms of overall and how you look at this, what is your sense of what they'll do next year, what their capability is here?
NYE: Well, so, for my part, at The Planetary Society, we are going to push back.
So everybody note well, even with this success, even with these remarkable people, talking about their remarkable experiences, somebody wants to cut the NASA budget 20 percent, wants to cut the NASA Science budget, almost 50 percent, 48 percent. This would end programs. It would just throw away, pick a number, $53 billion worth of investment. And so, it's happened last October, and it's happening again.
And The Planetary Society, we're going to push back. There will be 300 of us on Capitol Hill. We'll write another 100,000 letters and emails. We'll meet with our members of Congress and Senate. And people will fly in on their own dime to be here, to make the point.
But it is inefficient, canceling or trying to cancel funding, and then having Congress push back and restore it.
But a concern might be--
COLLINS: Yes.
NYE: --that--
COLLINS: What about people who say, Well, there's so many private companies that are trying to do this now?
NYE: Oh, it's different thing.
COLLINS: What would you say to someone who's like, looking at all that private investment, and looking at it differently than they did decades ago?
NYE: Well, so everybody remember, if you are Blue Origin or SpaceX, your big customers are the Air Force or Space Force and NASA, those are big customers.
So, NASA buys rockets. And what we want to do is free up NASA funding, not to have to build rockets, but to be able to purchase them. With that said, in savvy fashion, the Space Launch System is a rocket built in the traditional ways, and it worked. So, they're going to fly a few more of those. Meanwhile, everybody, there are rock samples sitting on Mars, which may change the course of history, and there's no plan to bring them back. Back to you.
COLLINS: And I imagine you'd like to see a plan to bring them back.
NYE: Yes, I do.
COLLINS: Bill Nye, always great to have you. Thanks for joining us here tonight.
NYE: Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next for us. I asked the President today, why did the first lady come out and make that rare public statement about Jeffrey Epstein? Hear what President Trump told me, right after this.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MELANIA TRUMP, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: I never had a relationship with Epstein or his accomplice, Maxwell.
I am not Epstein's victim. Epstein did not introduce me to Donald Trump.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: It has been a week since the first lady, Melania Trump, came out and issued that remarkable public statement, denying any ties between herself and Jeffrey Epstein.
And so today, when we were out speaking with the President, I asked him, what was it that caused the first lady to come out and make that statement in the first place.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The first lady came out last week and said she had no link to Jeffrey Epstein--
D. TRUMP: Who did?
COLLINS: The first lady, Melania Trump.
D. TRUMP: Yes, she had none.
COLLINS: Why did she come out and say that last week?
[22:00:00]
D. TRUMP: Because the fake news was saying she did and she had none. And I think that's been proven. It bothered her that the fake news was being fake news. That's all. She just wanted to clarify that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: The President, saying, the first lady just wanted to clarify, and that is why she came out last week to speak about Jeffrey Epstein.
We'll keep you updated on that.
Thank you so much for joining us here tonight on THE SOURCE.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts right now.
