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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Iran Disputes Trump's Claim It Agreed To Mostly Everything; The Atlantic Reports New Details On FBI Director Kash Patel; Former "Summer House" Star Launches Bid For Congress. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired April 17, 2026 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: So, we thought that was an interesting microcosm for what was happening in the country overall.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. Sanjay, thanks very much. Fascinating.
GUPTA: Yes.
COOPER: Dr. Sanjay Gupta.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Again, you can catch "Weed 8: Women and Weed," this Sunday at 08:00 p.m. Eastern, only on CNN.
That's all for us tonight. I'm Boris Sanchez. Have a great weekend.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts right now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: Tonight, the President says a deal with Iran is all but done. But Tehran says, Not so fast.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Tonight, President Trump is sending his strongest signal yet that the war with Iran may be nearing an end. In a speech today in Phoenix, he began by painting a picture of a swift and orderly return to peace and stability.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: And we have some good news I'll tell you about, a little -- would anybody like to hear about Iran a little bit?
(CHEERING)
TRUMP: This process should go very quickly, in that most of the points are already negotiated and agreed to. You'll be very happy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And that would be welcome news for stability in the region, the global economy, gas prices, and, of course, the families of America's Armed Forces.
The President seems to believe these developments are so promising, he was live-posting the updates, seemingly, as he got them.
But publicly, at least tonight, as we come on the air, Tehran is still rejecting that optimism. The Speaker of Iran's Parliament went so far as to accuse the President of making seven false claims, in the span of an hour.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Iran has just announced that the Strait of Hormuz is fully open and ready for business and full passage.
(CHEERING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, Iran's Foreign Minister did say, Yes, the Strait is open. But only a handful of ships felt safe enough to pass through.
And there is a catch, that Iranian state TV is reporting, only non- military vessels can sail through, and only through designated routes approved by Iran.
Iranian officials are warning, they will close the Strait again, they say, unless the United States lifts its blockade of Iranian ports. That has not happened, of course, because it's a major point of leverage that the U.S. delegation has in any further peace talks.
The President also signaled a breakthrough on another huge sticking point, that enriched uranium, which the President lately has been referring to as nuclear dust, that remains buried deep underground in Iran, after the U.S. strikes there last June.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The USA will get all nuclear dust. You know what the nuclear dust is? That was that white powdery substance created by our B-2 bombers, those great B-2 bombers.
Somebody said, How are we going to get the nuclear dust? We're going to get it by going in with Iran, with lots of excavators, because the B-2s. Remember when fake news CNN said, Well, maybe obliteration is too strong a word, obliteration.
That's so deep, we need the biggest excavators you can imagine. But we're going to go in together with Iran. We're going to get it, and we're going to take it back home to the USA.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: As senior Iranian officials tell CNN late tonight that that's a non-starter. It could be bluster. We just don't know right now.
But sources in Iran are telling CNN that a second round of talks is expected to take place on Monday in Pakistan.
Obviously, the White House has said if there were to be a second round of talks, those would likely be led, again, by the Vice President, JD Vance, whose boss, as you can hear, in what he says here, clearly wants this to be over.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: This process, we're getting along well. But who knows? Who knows with anyone, but who knows with Iran in particular? This process should go very quickly, that most of the points are already negotiated and agreed to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My lead sources tonight are:
The former Deputy Secretary of State, Wendy Sherman, who led the team that negotiated the 2015 nuclear deal with Iran.
And CNN's Global Affairs Analyst, and Iran expert, Karim Sadjadpour.
And it's great to have both of you here.
Because Karim, we've talked to you so much, over this war, as this has been playing out. When you hear what the President is saying publicly, what Iran is saying publicly. What's your sense on what's real, what's bluster, what's hopeful, and what we should be cautious about tonight?
KARIM SADJADPOUR, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST, SENIOR FELLOW, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT FOR INTERNATIONAL PEACE, IRAN EXPERT: Well, Kaitlan, over the last 47 years, you can count on probably two or three fingers, the number of times that the Government of Iran has agreed to a major compromise.
And those compromises have never been quick. They've always come after months, in some cases, years of negotiations, as Wendy can well attest to. So, negotiating with Iran, the experience is not Amazon Prime. It's hundreds of cups of tea.
[21:05:00]
And I think that the President is probably overestimating the fact that Iran is economically desperate for a compromise. It's true, it's a regime which is under dire economic straits. But it's never a government which has prioritized its economic wellbeing as its first priority.
COLLINS: Ambassador Sherman, what is your take, as someone who has spent a lot of time, doing the negotiating, on a different front, with a different team. But what has that -- what has that experience taught you about what we're seeing right now?
WENDY SHERMAN, FORMER DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, I couldn't agree with Karim more. This isn't going to get done by Monday, or even the end of the day, Monday. The best that could happen would be a set of principles, and then it would take weeks, probably months, maybe even longer, to actually fill in all of the details.
Because, let's say, there was an agreement to remove the many thousands of pounds of -- about a thousand pounds of highly enriched uranium underneath Isfahan. It would take time to do it. You'd have to define what that means, figure out how you implement it, how do you enforce it and verify it?
There are just lots and lots of technical details to what the President is trying to do now. I think he's trying to affect the markets, which he did today, the price of oil went down, the markets went up. We'll see what he does on Sunday, as the markets open on Monday. But he's also trying to put pressure on Iran, so that if they don't come through, he can say, it's their fault.
Iran and even Islamabad, Pakistan, has said there's still 20 percent to go. Well, it's always that 20 percent that's the hardest. I was always asked during the JCPOA negotiations, whether we were almost there, 50 percent there. And I said, We either get there or we don't. It's binary. It's the Rubik's Cube. Unless that last piece fits, it doesn't happen.
COLLINS: Well, that's a really good point, because obviously there is so much still left to come together. And you're right, the markets are being openly affected by this.
Karim, in just terms of the Strait of Hormuz that we've focused so much on, understandably, because of the impact it's having worldwide, but on Americans here. Do you consider the Strait to be open, which I should note, it was before this war started? Do you consider it to be open if the ship is going through it still need Iran's permission?
SADJADPOUR: It's definitely not open. I don't think any major shipping or oil company would tell you that we've gone back to status quo ante. And that process could take many, many months, if indeed we are able to go back to, to status quo ante.
So far, what we haven't yet seen has been Iran attacking U.S. ships, or Iran going after oil installations in places like Saudi Arabia or the UAE, or Iran's proxy, the Houthi, getting involved in obstructing Saudi oil transported through the Red Sea.
So, so far, it's only 72 hours in. So, it's too, too soon to say it's been a great success. But we're, we're far away from going back to the days in which the Strait of Hormuz was an international waterway.
COLLINS: Yes, and Ambassador Sherman on that. When you hear Iran say, Well, if the United States doesn't stop blockading our ports, we're going to close the Strait of Hormuz again. I mean, as Karim noted there, it's still pretty much closed for a lot of open shipping to feel safe to go through. When you hear what they're saying publicly. You dealt with Iranians, Iranian officials, senior Iranian officials, before. Do you think it's bluster and they're out there actually talking to the United States more seriously behind the scenes? Or what do you hear in the public comments that we've seen today?
SHERMAN: Well, I certainly believe that Pakistan is speaking with each of the parties and transmitting messages back and forth.
The President has indicated, he has had direct conversations with Iran. But I sort of doubt that. It might be possible, but I would sort of doubt it. I think it's through Pakistan.
Abbas Araghchi, who's the Foreign Minister, was my counterpart during the JCPOA negotiations. He's very tough. But even, he was pulled back a little bit because he said the Strait was opened, and then those above him said, Not so fast, the IRGC has to approve who comes through the Strait. We still believe they may be asking for tolls.
I think what's so important here, as you were pointing out, is that there's so much at stake here for the world economy, for Americans' pocketbooks, for military families, as you well remembered. And, if you recall this, all began because the President said he would have the back of the Iranian people who would love freedom. And so far, all the Iranian people have gotten is more bombs and even a more hardline government.
[21:10:00]
COLLINS: Yes, and living in such a blackout over these last several weeks, as this war has continued.
The President keeps saying nuclear dust, Karim. I don't know if that's a term that you were familiar with before this, as he keeps -- I mean, this is a lot of enriched uranium.
And there is also a contradiction in the President saying, Last summer, it was buried so deeply underground they'd never be able to get it. It would take forever.
Now he's talking about, as he said today, the United States and Iran, going in together, to get that enriched uranium, the nuclear dust, as he's calling it, and then bringing it back to the United States.
Do you think that that is achievable? Possible? Likely? Anything?
SADJADPOUR: I think it's possible, Kaitlan, that if when we are reaching closer to a deal, we will get a sense of what the confines of that deal is. And it does sound like the President has now narrowly focused on the issue of Iran's stockpile of highly enriched uranium, and then the issue of enrichment itself.
But if you remember when he launched this war, the priorities was much larger. It was about Iran's missiles and drones and its proxies, and freedom for the Iranian people. And if you talk to many of our partners and allies in the Middle East, what they will tell you is, Listen, we don't -- we're not -- it's not that we're not worried about Iran's nuclear program, but we're not worried that Iran is going to nuke us anytime soon, but they are actively using their missiles and drones and proxies against us on a daily basis.
So if, ultimately, this war is only about just their nuclear program, and we've spent tens of billions of dollars prosecuting it? I don't think it will be viewed as a strategic success.
COLLINS: A lot of questions there.
Karim Sadjadpour. Ambassador Wendy Sherman. Great to have both of your expertise here tonight. So, thank you for joining us, as we monitor this rapidly-developing situation here.
SHERMAN: Thank you.
SADJADPOUR: Thank you.
COLLINS: And up next. There's a new report that just came out tonight from The Atlantic. It's about the FBI director, Kash Patel, and it alleges troubling things about what happens that he is describing as false, but what is, they say, happening right now at the FBI. More details on that report.
And also, there's another reality star who is jumping into politics. Why his eyes are set on Congress.
[21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: There's new reporting tonight in The Atlantic that details how officials at the FBI and the Justice Department are alarmed by the behavior of the FBI director. The headline of this new piece reads, quote, "The FBI Director Is MIA. Kash Patel has alarmed colleagues with episodes of excessive drinking and unexplained absences."
Now, I should note, CNN has not corroborated the instances that are detailed in The Atlantic's piece that just came out this evening. But in it, Kash Patel is described as a visible presence as the head of the Bureau, and he's been vocal, obviously, in his change to desire -- in his desire to change the culture at the FBI.
But here's what's in The Atlantic story tonight. They say, quote, "Early in his tenure, meetings and briefings had to be rescheduled for later in the day as a result of his alcohol-fueled nights."
And Sarah Fitzpatrick, the reporter who is on the byline of this story, writes that she learned those details, from six current and former officials, as well as others who are familiar with Kash Patel's schedule.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SARAH FITZPATRICK, STAFF WRITER, THE ATLANTIC: So, over the last several months, I've spoken to over two dozen people who expressed grave, grave concern about the FBI director's pattern of behavior.
They described someone that had multiple, multiple incidents of excessive drinking in public places that alarmed them, and they felt was a vulnerability. Absences that were unexplained. And perhaps most importantly, that his own security detail requested breach equipment, because they were so alarmed that they were unable to reach him behind closed doors. And that, on multiple occasions, the security detail had trouble waking him up, because he was seemingly so intoxicated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: In response to that reporting that you just heard there, the FBI put out a statement to The Atlantic that was attributed to the FBI director himself, Kash Patel, that says, Print it, all false, I'll see you in court -- bring your checkbook.
My legal sources tonight are:
The former Deputy Assistant Attorney General, Tom Dupree.
And the former Deputy Director of the FBI, Andrew McCabe.
And Andrew, obviously, when you hear what's in this. You've held that job on an Acting basis. You were obviously the Deputy Director. When you hear what Sarah Fitzpatrick is reporting about Kash Patel's alleged drinking that she is citing to these sources that she says, as you heard her there, telling Boris, for the last several months. What's your initial reaction to this?
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST, FORMER FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: Yes, Kaitlan, I guess, my initial reaction is just kind of almost sadness.
You know, there's -- I and many others have been on record, from the beginning, opposing Kash Patel's nomination to this position, because he was wholly unqualified for the job. If the reporting in The Atlantic is true, it confirms what many of us were worried about from the start.
[21:20:00]
The FBI -- the role of FBI director, you can't possibly overstate how serious and impactful that job is. It is a job that takes absolute control of your life. It comes before your family. It comes before your vacations. It comes before your health. It is the thing that you are accountable for, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year, as long as you are fortunate enough to sit in that chair.
And the idea that the FBI director might not be available, because of poor choices, is something just is not consistent with doing the job. The job, which is protecting the safety and security of every single American. There's nobody else in this country, who carries that same weight. So, again, if the instances that have been reported tonight in The Atlantic are accurate? Then, I think it's a sad day for the FBI, for the men and women of the FBI, who demand a much greater, higher level of performance from their leadership, and from the American people who depend upon it.
COLLINS: Tom Dupree, I mean, just as someone who also worked in the upper echelons of government, and understanding the demands of jobs like these, and what they put on people. When you read this, I wonder what stands out to you?
Because Kash Patel's attorneys are denying this. They're saying, The vast majority of the claims in the article relies on sole vague, unattributed sourcing.
But beyond the allegations of drinking, it also kind of paints this picture of a paranoid FBI director who's worried about being fired. Which, I mean, that's not specific to him, I should note, when people in Trump world, especially after the ousting of Pam Bondi and Kristi Noem, this is something that's become more prevalent because the President seems more likely to fire people.
But what's your read of that, Tom, just in terms of the overall picture?
TOM DUPREE, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, my read of it is, it's similar to Andy's, and that, look, being the Director of the FBI is a 24/7 job. The nation's security depends on a director who is alert, and exercises good judgment, and is ready to make very important decisions at a moment's notice at any hour of the day.
So, the allegations in this story, and at this point, of course, they're just allegations, are very serious and have to be taken seriously. If true, they would be extremely disturbing.
But look, at the same time, I would also say that the Director has denied all of that. He has been very vocal about his intent to file a lawsuit, basically alleging that the article is false, defamatory, libelous. I think journalists have the law on their side, a lot of times in these cases, because Kash Patel is a public figure. And so, the plaintiff, in a case like this, would have to prove actual malice on the part of The Atlantic.
What we heard from The Atlantic's reporter is that this was a heavily- sourced story. We heard that she spoke to more than two dozen people. So, The Atlantic had to know going in, that this is going to be a story that could lead to litigation, it would be a story that the Director would vehemently deny, and that's exactly what is happening so far.
But all of that tells me that I am sure The Atlantic probably took the -- went the extra mile, to make sure that this story would survive the lawsuit, which almost inevitably is going to follow.
COLLINS: Yes, and in terms of just how these investigations are playing out. The one thing they talk about is Trump wanting more investigations from the FBI, from DOJ.
This comes, as we're also hearing tonight that the Justice Department has removed the lead prosecutor in the investigation of the CIA director under President Obama, John Brennan. And in the statement they put out about this, they said it's completely healthy and normal to change members of legal teams.
Can both of you quickly weigh in? Is it normal for the lead prosecutor on a case as big as that one would ostensibly be, is that normal, in either of your view, for that to change, Andrew?
Andrew McCabe, I'll let you go first.
MCCABE: Yes, it's certainly not normal, in my experience, 21 years in the FBI, working with prosecutors every day at every level in the Justice Department, ultimately.
But it is kind of normal in this administration. People who have failed to satisfy the President's desire for this tour of retribution have find themselves, out the door, and most notably, Pam Bondi.
So, it really depends on how you define normal, I guess.
COLLINS: Yes.
Tom, what's your thought?
DUPREE: Look, I would say that this happens, but it is not the normal course of operations at the Justice Department, at least not historically.
But look, we have seen this movie before. We have seen the President insist that particular people be prosecuted. And if his prosecutors are not getting the results he is demanding, the President will make a change. We have seen this time and time and time again.
Doesn't surprise me at all. Brennan has been on the President's list for a long time. The President wants to see results. The U.S. Attorney wants to see results. Not a surprise.
COLLINS: Yes.
Tom Dupree. Andrew McCabe. Great to have both of you here tonight. Thanks for joining us.
Up next. From the Bravo show, "Summer House," to the House of Representatives. My next source on why he -- what's happening in D.C., and why he says that's the real drama and where he belongs.
[21:25:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There he is. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chop that up?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sorry not to properly greet you.
LUKE GULBRANSON, FORMER "SUMMER HOUSE" STAR, (D) RUNNING FOR MINNESOTA HOUSE SEAT: That's all right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Luke, this is Lindsay.
LINDSAY HUBBARD, TV PERSONALITY: Hi.
GULBRANSON: Hi there, Lindsay.
KYLE COOKE, TV PERSONALITY: I met Luke through a couple mutual friends. Carl and I, we need another bro in the house. And Luke, Luke's like a bro, talks like a bro, acts like a bro.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:30:00]
COLLINS: If you're looking for Andy Cohen, you have the wrong channel. This is still CNN.
That is how Bravo fans met Luke Gulbranson, on the hit show, "Summer House" though. And after spending his summers in the Hamptons on the reality show, there is a new house that Luke is trying to move into. That is the House of Representatives in Washington. He's running for the midterms as a Democrat in Minnesota.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GULBRANSON: Yes, I've been on reality TV. That's drama for show. What's happening in D.C. is real drama, with real consequences, and the stakes couldn't be higher.
I wake up every morning and there's this dangerous rhetoric and this madness coming out of D.C., and I can't stand it. ICE agents wreaking havoc to our communities. Congress voting to take away people's health care. Spending $200 billion on a war, when we need to be spending that money at home, taking care of our own people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And Luke Gulbranson is my source tonight.
And thank you for being here.
I'm a Bravo fan. So, I am familiar with you from your days on "Summer House."
But in terms of what you're doing now. You want to represent the 8th congressional district. It's up north. Right now, it's represented by a Republican who has been there since 2019. It's a district the President won by 14 points. Tell me why you're running, and why you think you can win. GULBRANSON: Well, for me, growing up, life was difficult. I was a welfare kid. We had food assistance. My parents. We needed Medicaid, food assistance, fuel assistance, and we faced a lot of adversity.
And what I'm seeing happening, right now, in northern Minnesota and across the country is we're giving tax breaks to the top 1 percent. Meanwhile, the people in these communities, in northern Minnesota, are struggling. They're doing the best they can, and they still are having a hard time getting by.
You know, Pete Stauber ran on, and Donald Trump ran on, lowering the cost of living and protecting Social Security and health care. And they're doing the exact opposite of that. They sold a bag of lies.
COLLINS: I was with the President yesterday, as he was taking questions, leaving the White House. And one of the questions he was getting asked was about how expensive gas is right now, and how long people should be prepared to be paying more.
GULBRANSON: Yes.
COLLINS: And one thing that you had said stuck out to me, because you were talking about the war in Iran and how much it's costing. We actually don't really have an idea yet in this moment.
GULBRANSON: Yes.
COLLINS: But the argument from the White House, from Republicans, has been, The pain right now that they're feeling will be worth it in the long run.
And I wonder what you're hearing from people as you're out there campaigning.
GULBRANSON: Well, my question back to them is, Those are words, but are you putting the gas in the tank of people that have to decide what bill they can't pay this month, so they can afford the gas prices that you're creating that are up right now? And let's be honest, they go up like a rocket and down like a feather.
So, this is probably going to last for a while, and it's -- when gas goes up and fertilizer goes up, everyday goods go up. And the people in northern Minnesota, they feel that. And, again, life is being made harder for them when it was promised to be better. And the word on the street, and the things that I'm hearing, I met with some people earlier today, is they're fed up, and they're sick of it. They want the change. They're ready for change.
COLLINS: Yes. You're in Minnesota. We've done so much coverage out of your home state, especially after the ICE killings of Americans there. And in terms of where that stands right now. The Department of Homeland Security, technically, is still shut down, in this moment. They have not been able to come to an agreement in Washington. If you are a member right now, in Washington, how would you vote on funding for ICE? GULBRANSON: Well, here's the thing. ICE doesn't meet the standard of the training that our law enforcement, that is required for them to work within our communities, to serve and protect, right? It's a broken agency, and it needs a complete overhaul. They're wearing face masks. They don't have body cameras. They need body cameras. There should not be face masks.
And even, like I said, with our local law enforcement, there's extensive training that's put in place there. The training that we're getting for ICE agents is eight weeks, and they're talking about making it less, and I just think that's a bit ridiculous. There's just way too much at stake, right? And they're not handling themselves appropriately.
COLLINS: So you would vote no on that?
GULBRANSON: Again, like I said, there's a standard that's put in place for our local law enforcement, and they should be -- they should have to abide by those same rules and principles, and it needs a complete overhaul.
COLLINS: Yes. Obviously, Luke, we've joked about your days on reality TV, what that looks like. And you're trying to do something much more serious, and go to Washington and talk about these issues that affected--
GULBRANSON: Yes, right.
COLLINS: --are affecting everyday Americans.
But there are Bravo fans who watch this show. And I do -- I have to ask you.
GULBRANSON: Yes.
COLLINS: I mean, that show has been in the news so much lately, because of drama that is happening between--
GULBRANSON: Yes.
COLLINS: --people who are on the show right now, that I'm sure you know both of them well. What is your take in between this, and whose side would you say that you're on?
GULBRANSON: Well, here we go. You put me on the spot.
[21:35:00]
OK, so, yes, listen, I think when it comes down to it, I've said this to some people before, and some friends. I never thought I'd see Kyle and Amanda not together. I didn't think that was possible.
But, I've talked to Kyle. He seems to be doing OK, seems to be doing all right. I'm sure, he has a few ups and downs, but he's happy.
And Amanda? I just want her to be happy. She deserves to be happy. And with Ciara, she's a strong, independent woman who's created a really successful career. I'm sure she's going to prosper from all this, and she'll find gratitude in the end of it. After it's all said and done, she'll have a lot of gratitude, I think, and I think it's going to be a good thing for her.
COLLINS: Yes. There's so many people at home right now wondering what we're talking about. They're all going to look it up.
Luke Gulbranson, thank you so much for joining us tonight.
GULBRANSON: Oh that's so -- oh that like -- yes.
COLLINS: Great to have you.
GULBRANSON: I know you're lending more attention.
COLLINS: Yes.
GULBRANSON: Yes, thank you.
COLLINS: Great to have you here.
I'm also joined tonight by my political sources.
Jamal Simmons is the former deputy assistant to President Biden.
Peter Meijer is a former Republican congressman from Michigan.
I mean, you know what it's like to run. He's obviously running on a message that right now the President is making it easier for him to run on, is he not, in terms of higher prices, what the President promised? I mean, if the midterms were tomorrow, how would you feel?
PETER MEIJER, FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE (R-MI), CO-FOUNDER & HEAD OF STRATEGY, THE NEW INDUSTRIAL CORPORATION: How would I feel about the Minnesota 8th congressional race?
JAMAL SIMMONS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT TO PRES. BIDEN, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR TO VP HARRIS: Yes.
COLLINS: Yes, please give us a deep-dive. You can play John King tonight. I'll give you permission.
MEIJER: I mean, Pete Stauber is winning, probably by double digits, at a minimum, by eight points. I mean, you got waves that are going to come in.
If you look back -- and things have gotten a little bit weirder. But in 2022, Democrats had a five-seat majority that became, after that midterm, a five-seat majority for Republicans. So, it was a relatively narrow -- narrow swing.
We don't get the massive swings we had before, because you have fewer seats that are truly competitive, thanks to both parties knowing their voters way better. Redistricting, gerrymandering, whatever you want to call it, everybody does it. So, there will be a swing.
I think there is nobody -- there is nobody except those who are actively running for office who would say it's a certainty that the Republicans are going to keep the House. We're probably going to lose. I think that's something that you just have to understand. Because, again, it's a five-seat majority for Republicans. That does not mean it's going to be a blowout on the Democratic side.
SIMMONS: And--
COLLINS: Yes, it would be brutal under any landscape, I think. But also--
MEIJER: But I think that's what happens to the party who's in power. There's a natural thermostatic reaction against--
COLLINS: Yes.
MEIJER: --whoever the President has. That has been the case in literally every election. It was muted in 2022 for a variety of reasons. It was not the case in 2002, post 9/11. Just about everything else indicate that.
COLLINS: So, the President has been paying attention to that pattern that has played out, with his predecessors, and when he was in office before.
This is what he said tonight about this, Jamal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Well, you add it all up, nobody's done what we've done. But for some reason, a president, Republican, Democrat, the party does poorly in the midterms. It doesn't make sense. I'm still trying to figure it out. We'll go out, I think probably hire a couple of psychiatrists. What the hell is going on in your mind? How does that happen?
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: Because it should be the opposite. We're doing well. We're doing our job.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean, I don't know, I could picture Joe Biden saying that, before the midterms, saying, You need a psychiatrist. The economy is going great, everything's fine.
And obviously, the voters felt differently.
SIMMONS: Yes, let me just tell you, blaming the voters is almost never a good idea. It's not their fault that they're not happy, right?
They're not happy because prices are too high, because the President is in a war in the Middle East that he promised them he wasn't going to go into. The President's fighting with the Pope about who's got the -- and JD Vance, about who's got the proper take on religion. There are all these things that are happening that the President didn't promise.
In some alternative universe, Donald Trump is focused on American manufacturing, cutting taxes for people, and making sure that we're going to have -- basically go back to some traditional values. And a bunch of Americans are really happy about that. That's not the universe that we live in. The one that we live in, in this world, the President is doing a bunch of things that don't matter.
And so, what I think Republicans should really be careful of, and be worried about, is that corruption is one of these things that's going to matter, competency is one of these things that's going to matter. And Democrats who stand up against Trump are going to be super- popular.
MEIJER: I mean, Democrats who stand up against Trump as any Democrat. I mean, if you're trying to win your primary, introduce impeachment articles, you drive that bat. You're Shri Thanedar in Michigan. You got to shore things up.
But that alternative universe, where the President cares about manufacturing, where he's working on tax cuts, and where he's driving on things that are pocketbook issues? That is what the President is doing right now, when it comes to manufacturing. We got the tax cuts that are coming through now. Granted, I'm not a -- you can make some good fiscal, economic arguments, that's not a wise policy. But the no tax on tips. The refunds coming through right now.
Yes, granted, we are dealing with the consequences of a war in Iran. The President would not get the benefit of the doubt regardless. His approval rating for his operations in Venezuela matches approval rating across the chart. It's 30 points more popular in Venezuela than in the U.S.
[21:40:00]
COLLINS: Can I ask you, though? Are you worried about the -- on the no tax on tips, which they've been touting, people getting bigger refunds. Are you worried people are paying more for gas, it's eroding that?
MEIJER: I mean, I hope to see the gas prices go down. I think if you look at the forward projections, right now, today, about where expectations are, that we'll be closer to where we were two years ago. Four years ago, gas was $1 higher than it is today. A year ago, it was $1 cheaper, right? It fluctuates.
Where we are in terms of those rebates, though, I think it'll be -- it'll be a mixed bag for a lot of folks. I mean, there's some folks who will make up better, and there's others who may not.
SIMMONS: Kaitlan, I will tell you, I've talked to pollsters. They are worried about -- they're not worried. They are really amazed by how much corruption is breaking through, and the fact that people are starting to blame the high prices they face, and the fact the President isn't doing things they care about, on the fact that he's worried about taking care of his rich friends, not worried about them.
COLLINS: Well, and if Democrats win the majority, you can bet, there's going to be investigation after investigation on Capitol Hill into all of that.
Jamal Simmons. Peter Meijer. Great to have both of you here tonight on a Friday night. Thanks for joining us.
Up next. My next source is a former staffer at the Kennedy Center. He says the changes there are, quote, Far worse, actually, than the public even knows. We'll speak to him, right after this, about what he's talking about.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:45:00]
COLLINS: My inside source tonight is a former staffer at the Kennedy Center, who is revealing some stunning accusations of politicization, cronyism and greed, all that he says he witnessed, as President Trump's takeover of the historic arts institution.
For the last 10 months, Josef Palermo worked as the Center's Visual Arts Curator, through the fallout of President Trump, gutting the Board of Trustees, naming himself the Chairman, overhauling its programming, the mass cancelations that came after that, renaming the Center after himself, and then declaring that it would be shut down this July for a two-year all-encompassing renovation.
But then, suddenly, Palermo and dozens of other staffers were laid off in March.
And in a new piece for The Atlantic, Palermo claims that this months- long political chaos and drama, on and off the Kennedy Center stage, is actually far worse, as he says, than the public knows.
And Josef Palermo joins me now.
And thank you so much for being here.
I do think this is a real question of -- we read so much about what was happening at the Kennedy Center, of this storied Washington institution. That was from the outside, though. So, could you just describe what was it like over the last several months, internally?
JOSEF PALERMO, FORMER CURATOR OF VISUAL ARTS, KENNEDY CENTER: It was chaotic. Every other day, it seemed we were walking into fresh new hell. We learned things about our own institution from the press, before we heard anything else from leadership inside. So, it's -- I'm relieved to be out of it. But it was -- it was not easy to be in it.
COLLINS: Why was it so chaotic? What -- I mean, was it just the changes every day, or, was it because the entire Board basically was ousted and replaced with people who were much more in line with the President? What was it?
PALERMO: We had a lack of leadership, point blank and period. I mean, Ric Grenell was never in the building. He was appointed to be the head of the Kennedy Center by President Trump, after President Trump installed himself as Chairman of the Board.
And Grenell surrounded himself with lackeys from his political campaigns and PAC world, and none of them had any care or concern for the actual mission of the Kennedy Center. It seemed to us that they were there, only to show up to red carpets and get their photos taken.
COLLINS: One thing I was reading in your story was about the art collection that is at the Kennedy Center, and basically the status of it. You talked at one point that Grenell had wanted you to do one thing with it. You were kind of slow-walking it and saying, Oh, I'm waiting on a colleague to get back to me. What was it that played out there?
PALERMO: Absolutely.
So, shortly after President Trump issued his announcement on Truth Social that he was closing the Kennedy Center for two years under the guise of renovations, I had been summoned into Ric Grenell's office at the Kennedy Center. And in that meeting, he issued a directive to me and said that, I want you to get rid of the art in the Kennedy Center. We are going to replace it with all new art for the reopening.
And the struggle I had with that was, this is art that had been donated to the American people, by way of the Kennedy Center, from different countries, from around the world, in the name of cultural diplomacy, from individual donors.
And the art and the permanent collection at the Kennedy Center, some of it is site-specific. It was created specifically for certain spaces in the Kennedy Center. And some of it is representational of figures that are iconic to the Kennedy Center, such as that of Julius Rudel, the first artistic director whose bust sits outside the Opera House.
COLLINS: In terms of the art, the staffing, what's going to happen now during these major renovations that are happening, which I know you said you thought could have happened while the Kennedy Center stayed open.
You talk about Ric Grenell and his running it. Obviously, he's a huge ally of the President's. CNN obtained email exchanges between you and Ric Grenell.
You talk about him. You talk about his leadership, this is back from November, where you talk about his leadership, and say that he's -- talking about him standing strong against antisemitism. There's one from your last day, where you said that you're being laid off and you were heartbroken, and said you were grateful to him for, Believing in me.
How do you look back on that, in hindsight, of what you're saying now about the Kennedy Center? PALERMO: We were all dealing with a narcissist, and we knew that, and you have to flatter his ego. It's the same tactic that people at the White House were using with President Trump.
And what's interesting to me is that the person giving those emails to CNN is the same person who used to sit in my office and complain about Ric Grenell herself.
[21:50:00]
COLLINS: Josef Palermo, on that front, you were invested in the Kennedy Center. Obviously. You can read and understand your appreciation for it. What do you think is the future of it, based on where we are tonight?
PALERMO: Ms. Collins, I have reason to believe that they are closing the Kennedy Center because they have bankrupted it. And so, it's very hard for me to answer what I think the future of the Kennedy Center holds, especially under this current administration.
We had been hearing whispers inside, that the CFO had been proposing, as late -- as far back, rather, as August of last year, in advance of the start of the new fiscal year on October 1st, she was supposedly suggesting that we close at the end of September, under the guise of renovations to stop the bleed of the finances. Francesca Zambello, the Artistic Director of the Washington National Opera, is on record, saying that she had been hearing the same thing since April.
COLLINS: So, you think it's because of the financial worries? That it's not about renovations?
PALERMO: That's correct.
COLLINS: Josef Palermo, thank you for joining us to talk about your piece in The Atlantic. Everyone can read the full thing there. Thank you for joining us tonight.
PALERMO: Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next. It was another defining week at the White House. We'll take you behind the scenes, right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:55:00]
COLLINS: From questioning President Trump's Border Czar, to sitting down with two political opposites about finding common ground, and also asking the President directly, Why is he fighting with the Pope? Here's behind the scenes, this week, in Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TRUMP: At 10 o'clock tomorrow, we have a blockade going into effect, so that Iran will not be able to sell oil.
COLLINS: Your work here is done.
ON SCREEN TEXT: Monday, April 13.
TRUMP: This doesn't look staged. Does it?
SHARON SIMMONS, DOORDASH DRIVER: They're all your favorites.
REPORTER: Has the blockade started sir?
TRUMP: Yes, started, 10 o'clock.
REPORTER: He now says you owe Pope Leo an apology. Will you apologize?
TRUMP: No, I don't, because Pope Leo said things that are wrong.
COLLINS: Here's something you almost never see President Trump do. Delete a controversial social media post, after sharing an image that depicted him as Jesus Christ.
TRUMP: It's supposed to be me as a doctor, making people better. And I do make people better. I make people a lot better.
COOPER: How long, Kaitlan, is the Trump administration willing to continue this blockade on Iranian ports?
COLLINS: That's an open question still, right now, Anderson. The President is still making clear, as he's hoping, that a deal can happen. But it's not clear exactly why, Anderson, he feels that way, given obviously those talks this weekend did not go as the White House had hoped.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Permission to get in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've given (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE, FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE (R-GA): President Trump is not a doctor, and many Christians across America and the world were very offended by that.
COLLINS: And I just want to keep both of you on screen for a second, because I think some people might be watching and have never seen the two of you do an interview together before.
REP. RO KHANNA (D-CA): We both recognize that the system is broken.
COLLINS: It's nice to have the two of you together. So, thank you for joining.
KHANNA: Well, I enjoyed it.
TAYLOR GREENE: Yes. Thank you, Kaitlan. Thank you, Ro.
ON SCREEN TEXT: Tuesday, April 14.
COLLINS: Mr. Homan, will you take a few of our questions today?
Mr. Homan, you've been involved in the negotiations on Capitol Hill to get ICE funded. What is the latest on that with House Republicans who don't like what the Senate has passed so far?
TOM HOMAN, WHITE HOUSE BORDER CZAR: They say they want to reform ICE. They don't want to reform ICE. They want to shut ICE down.
So you know, if they don't like what ICE does? Change the law.
COLLINS: You don't think the war makes it harder for Republicans to--
REP. MIKE LAWLER (R-NY): I don't. I don't.
COLLINS: --to maintain their majority?
LAWLER: And I'm not worried about the political consequences of a righteous decision.
COLLINS: Can I just ask, what would you have said to the President, if he was attacking the Pope, over what he said about Iran, if you were the National Security Advisor still?
JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: Stop.
ON SCREEN TEXT: Wednesday, April 15.
COLLINS: Pick a camera, any camera.
Yes, there are some Cabinet officials who are coming out here, with Karoline Leavitt today.
The ceasefire that the President announced is set to expire just next week.
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: With respect to the blockade, as you know, it has been fully implemented, and it's being enforced against vessels of all nations entering or departing Iranian ports.
SCOTT BESSENT, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY: I'm optimistic that during the summer we will see gas with a 3 in front of it sooner rather than later.
COLLINS: Secretary Bessent, will you take a few more questions?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that all (ph)?
COLLINS: I guess that's -- he's going to come back. He just went for a few minutes (ph).
RAHM EMANUEL, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO JAPAN UNDER PRES. BIDEN: We went in to degrade their nuclear capacity. They discovered they have a nuclear option called the Strait of Hormuz. LAEL BRAINARD, FORMER VICE CHAIR, FEDERAL RESERVE: There is a clear path. The criminal investigation gets wrapped up. Kevin Warsh has his hearings and a vote. And Jay Powell will no longer be Chair.
COLLINS: I was dying to ask a question about it today, but alas.
ON SCREEN TEXT: Thursday, April 16.
TRUMP: Oil goes way down.
COLLINS: Mr. President, why are you fighting with the Pope? And are you worried it's upsetting your Evangelical supporters and Catholic supporters?
TRUMP: No, no, I don't -- I have to do what's right.
The Pope made a statement. He says, Iran can have a nuclear weapon.
I say, Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon.
COLLINS: He didn't say that.
As you said, Iran can have a nuclear weapon. I'm like, he never said that.
The Pope has repeatedly warned about the danger of nuclear weapons, and actually called for a world that is free from a nuclear threat.
My political sources are here tonight.
Scott Jennings, who worked with Senator Mitch McConnell.
And Ashley Etienne, who worked with the Vice President, Kamala Harris.
[22:00:00]
SCOTT JENNINGS, HOST, "THE SCOTT JENNINGS RADIO SHOW" ON SRN: The President today also said that he thought the blockade that he had put in place was even more effective than the wartime activities that we were engaged in.
COLLINS: Yes.
JEREMY HANSEN, ARTEMIS II MISSION SPECIALIST: The sense I had was the sense of fragility and feeling small, infinitesimally small. But yet, this very powerful feeling as a human being.
COLLINS: What was your takeaway from what you heard from them in their first press conference?
BILL NYE, THE SCIENCE GUY: This is historic.
There will be discoveries made--
COLLINS: Yes.
NYE: --that will affect all of us.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: Thanks so much for joining us here tonight.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT" starts now.
