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The Source with Kaitlan Collins

Trump Threatens Lots Of Bombs If Ceasefire Ends Without Deal; Lori Chavez-DeRemer Out As Labor Secretary; Trump Signs Order To Expand Research On Psychedelic Drug Ibogaine. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired April 20, 2026 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[21:00:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(VIDEO - ARTEMIS II COMMANDER CAPTURES AN "EARTHSET")

REID WISEMAN, ARTEMIS II COMMANDER: Wow.

Dude! No way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Yes way.

On social media, Commander Wiseman described the moment as, One chance in a lifetime.

Remarkable. There you see, the Earthset.

That's it for us. Kaitlan Collins is taking over now with "THE SOURCE." See you, tomorrow.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: Threats, confusion and a clock that is very much ticking when it comes to the ceasefire deal with Iran. What the next 48 hours can bring?

I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.

With a ceasefire deal that is set to run out in roughly 48 hours from now, confusion is running rampant about the state of negotiations, between the United States and Iran.

Part of that confusion even has to do with the second round of peace talks that we are now told are happening tomorrow in Pakistan. One moment, we've been hearing from the President, as he's framing an agreement, as all but done. The next, he's again threatening absolute annihilation, as scenes like this one are playing out in the Arabian Sea.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Motor vessel Touska, motor vessel Touska. Vacate your engine room. Vacate your engine room. We are prepared to subject you to disabling fire. (VIDEO - U.S. FIRES ON AND SEIZES IRANIAN-FLAGGED SHIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mayday.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: That video released by U.S. Central Command shows U.S. forces first warning, as you could hear, and then firing on and then seizing an Iranian-flagged vessel that was trying to bypass the U.S. blockade. You can see the Marines rappelling onto the ship, as Iran's military is likening what you're seeing here, in this seizure, to an act of armed piracy, and is also vowing to retaliate tonight.

Now, this is all coming at a crucial time, as the clock is ticking on a deadline, and talks are set to convene in Pakistan, tomorrow, that very much still seem to be up in the air tonight.

If you have a bit of whiplash, no one can really blame you.

Just Friday, the President was framing a deal with Iran, as all but agreed to. That day alone, he told Bloomberg that Iran had agreed to an unlimited suspension of its nuclear program. He told CBS that Tehran had, quote, "Agreed to everything" and would work with the United States to remove its enriched uranium. And he told Axios, I think we will get a deal in the next day or two.

Now we come on the air tonight, and that optimism that we have been hearing from the President seems to be replaced by bluster, threats coming via Truth Social, and extremely high stakes, of course.

Iran's top negotiator and the Parliament Speaker, Mohammad Ghalibaf posted this, saying, quote, "Trump, by imposing a siege and violating the ceasefire, seeks to turn this negotiating table-- in his own imagination-- into a table of surrender or to justify renewed warmongering." He said, "We do not accept negotiations under the shadow of threats, and in the past two weeks, we have prepared to reveal new cards on the battlefield."

Now, of course, that could very much be bluster coming from a top Iranian official there.

And despite statements like that, though, we are hearing from President Trump tonight, sounding hopeful about Iran coming to the table.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Well, they're going to negotiate, and if they don't, they're going to see problems like they've never seen before. And they're going to negotiate, and hopefully they'll make a fair deal, and they'll build their country back up. But they will not have, when they do it, they will not have a nuclear weapon. They will have no access to, no chance of having a nuclear weapon. And we can't allow that to happen.

(END VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: We start the hour off tonight with two incredibly well- sourced reporters.

David Sanger is the White House and National Security Correspondent for The New York Times.

And Josh Dawsey does political investigations -- report as a political investigations reporter for The Wall Street Journal.

And it's great to have you both here, because you both put out incredible reporting. Just on where the President's head is at on Iran right now. And David Sanger, you just published a new report tonight about immediate results versus the long game. The long game is what the White House argues the President is playing here.

But you write that the President has tried jawboning the Iranians by contending that they already surrendered -- they "agreed to everything" he insisted on Friday, including turning over their "nuclear dust" -- only to discover that patter doesn't work with Iranian officials, who took to social media to declare he had made it all up.

What is your sense, David on if the President is negotiating here, or if he feels like he's actually getting somewhere with Iran?

[21:05:00]

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL & NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST, WHITE HOUSE & NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES, AUTHOR, "NEW COLD WARS": I think the President is using his old techniques on a country that has negotiated deals with neighbors for 3,000 years within the rough borders. Hasn't been Iran before, but ancient Persia. And I think they look at President Trump, and they say to themselves, OK, he won't be here in three years, but somebody will, and how can they play this game out?

Look, they have three things that are their priorities. Survival is number one. And so far, they think, you know, their regime is still around, remarkably, after four or five weeks of pretty intense bombing.

The second thing that they are looking for is a pathway to a weapon. They don't necessarily want to build one. They've been taking the slowest path to a nuclear weapon of any country that's ever sought one. They've been at this for 20 years. They've always gone just short of it. But I think they want to continue to have that option.

And the third thing they want now is renewed control of the Strait. This is the new superpower they've now discovered they have, and I don't think they're going to give it up very easily, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: Well, I mean, and Dawsey, it doesn't seem like they want to give it up very easily. But the President, in part, the Strait of Hormuz itself has been incredibly frustrating for him, in terms of, you know, he was declaring it open on Friday. Then it was very -- they were saying it was closed on Saturday. I mean, you put out a report just basically getting into the President's mindset. You wrote in your reporting that the President's aides have taken turns telling the President that he should limit the impromptu interviews because they were only convincing the public that he had contradictory messages. And at times, he would joke with Karoline Leavitt, he had talked to a reporter and made big news, but she would have to wait and see what the news was that he had told reporters about Iran.

JOSH DAWSEY, REPORTER, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL: Yes, that's right, Kaitlan. I mean, you've seen the President do these interviews where he talks for five, seven minutes, and sometimes says whatever is on his mind, off the cuff, can be contradictory messages from day to day.

But what we're really seeing from a macro level is the President has his own improvisational style, full of blusters. Sometimes, he misleads. He does things that take his own aides off guard. And we've never really seen that play out with a prolonged war.

One of the reasons we did this story over the weekend, which is to look at how his style and how kind of he's an unorthodox president, in every single way, plays out in one way when it's on sort of a domestic crisis or some foe of his, where he's going after someone online, or he's mad at some senator or whatever.

But we've never seen sort of the way he governs, the way he communicates, tested in a long-term foreign conflict with another adversary. You know, in his first term, he just didn't do that. In this term, he had done some limited skirmishes, obviously in Venezuela, bombing Iran the first time.

But what we've really seen over the last six, seven weeks of this ordeal is the President who wakes up some mornings angry, wakes up some mornings wanting a deal, immediately, wakes up, really, whatever is on his mind, he sort of is acting in that vein. And the apparatus of the government is not always following as closely in line. And foreign governments are also not following closely always of what he's doing in that moment. So, it's been a really interesting test for his skills in this situation.

COLLINS: Well, and especially -- I mean, to everything you just said, as it relates to the Iranians.

I mean, David Sager, as you know, when the Obama administration was negotiating its nuclear deal with the Iranians, I mean, it took years. They came back to the table. They would make new demands. They would agree to something and then change their mind.

I mean, how they're acting isn't specific to Trump, necessarily. But, I mean, he clearly is not appreciating how it's -- how it's progressing, or it's not going according to the timeline that maybe he thought it would.

SANGER: Sure. I mean, it took Jimmy Carter, what, 444 days, to negotiate the release of the hostages, back in 1980 and 1981, and that only happened hours after he left the presidency and Ronald Reagan came in.

It took two years to get the Iran nuclear deal. And when it finally came out, it was a 160 pages long, and full of appendixes and very specific steps that each side would take.

I don't think even if there is a deal in the next few days, it's going to look anything like that. It's going to be a two- or three-page document that will be basically a statement of principles. But that will leave everybody to go back and try to negotiate the specifics, including inspection. What it means that there would be no nuclear activity? Does that mean no research, no work on building centrifuges? All sorts of definitional questions that will have to come up.

[21:10:00]

And then the removal of the uranium. Not just that uranium that is closest to bomb-grade, but another 10.5 tons sitting around the country that could, with further enrichment, be used for bomb fuel.

So, there's a lot here, and I think the administration didn't go into this recognizing quite how complex this was going to be.

COLLINS: Well, and the stakes are incredibly high. I mean, obviously we're watching this play out for Americans here at home, for Gulf allies in the region.

And Josh, just on this, I mean, something you reported on Saturday night blew up on the internet, over the weekend, and everyone's been talking about this part where you talked about just the kind of the President's state of mind.

You said, He is veering between belligerent and conciliatory approaches and grappling behind the scenes with just how badly things could go wrong.

You said, At the same time, the President sometimes loses focus, spending time on the details of his plans for the White House ballroom or midterm fundraisers and telling advisers he wants to shift to other topics.

DAWSEY: Yes.

COLLINS: As you also talked about, kind of, the President being in the room for updates, when a U.S. airman was missing.

I mean, a lot on his mindset, specifically.

DAWSEY: Yes. And as you know, Kaitlan, the President, often veers from subject to subject. You see how regularly he brings a ballroom up in private and public meetings.

I think, in the Venezuela conflict, the military was able to go in, accomplish what they want, take Maduro out. He was able to get regime change fairly quickly there, and was able to succeed pretty -- pretty in a timetable that he understood and liked. And this has become protracted, it's become messy. If you talk to a lot of folks in the White House, they say, you know, Bibi Netanyahu and others convinced the President, Lindsey Graham and others convinced the President this was a good idea. And now, you're watching this play out weeks after weeks after weeks after weeks, and there's not an easy path for him.

So, you see the President getting really angry, for example, on Good Friday, when the Iranians shot down the U.S. planes over Iranian territory, and demanding the military get these guys immediately, as they -- saying, We've got to figure out a plan how to get -- how to get folks in. How do we do this? We have to put boots on the ground in Iran and get these guys.

They convened in the Situation Room for these 24 hours or so of very tense negotiations. And that weaves (ph) him out because he's impatient, he's frustrated. You see his improvisational post, where he's threatening to end civilization, where he's saying in profane terms, to open the Strait, those sort of are not part of the national security plan for his team. You're seeing some clear signs of frustration pile up.

But one of the things that was interesting to me in our reporting is how many folks said, the President also has fears. Right? He did not necessarily want to do some of the most aggressive attacks in taking Kharg Island, because he thought it could kill a lot of American soldiers, they'd be there sort of like sitting ducks. How he keeps talking about Jimmy Carter and how this sort of became such a debacle in the Jimmy Carter Presidency.

So, there's a lot of chest-thumping bravado out there with the President sort of saying, how confident he is in this war, and how it's, you know, how it's going to plan, how the military is demolishing everything. But behind the scenes, you often hear a little bit of a different tone, when he's talking to his own advisers and friends.

COLLINS: Yes, and you hear that from those advisers who are also worried about it.

Josh Dawsey. David Sanger. Excellent reporting from both of you. Thank you for starting the hour off with us tonight.

Also here for this conversation. The former Trump National Security Advisor during his first term, former Ambassador to the United Nations, John Bolton.

And obviously you've been in the -- I'm sure you have an idea of what Josh is talking about there, in terms of the President's impatience, as they were looking for those U.S. airmen.

But can I just ask you, sir, on the President, what he was saying on Friday night? If someone watched the show on Friday night, they thought that we were on the verge of a deal with Iran, potentially, if they were reading just the President's post. I mean, we were obviously skeptical. But now, given what we're hearing today, I mean, it was a struggle to even confirm that yes, JD Vance is going to Pakistan tomorrow.

What do you make of where things are right now?

JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: Well, I think what he was saying at the end of last week was intended as market manipulation, sort of catnip to, and he says, Things are going great. Equity prices go up, oil prices go down. It's nirvana in the Oval Office. And then he had two days of the weekend where the markets couldn't react one way or the other.

I think the President is really desperate to get out. He's worried about the price of gasoline at the pump. He's worried about the political impact. And he doesn't know how to do it, because he doesn't see any good alternatives. Of course, we don't know what his objectives are, we still don't know what his objectives are, so it's hard to know what he's measuring.

But he's afraid of not making a deal because things will continue, and he's afraid of making a bad deal because he'll look like Barack Obama, and that can lead to mood swings, shall we say?

COLLINS: He said today that he was not in a rush to make a deal. He said he's not feeling the pressure that he's reading about. He denied those reports about that.

In terms of the Vice President going to Islamabad. What are you watching for in this second round of talks? Do you think anything is going to come out of it?

[21:15:00]

BOLTON: Well, I think the President already has extended the ceasefire. Yet again. He's extended it several times now. Wednesday is now the deadline. Islamabad is plus nine hours from the United States, so it's already six in the morning Tuesday, their time. I don't know when Vance is leaving, or if he's left already. It's a long flight. By the time he gets there, it's probably Tuesday night.

So, they're in a situation where, as with the last time they went to Islamabad, they're right up against the deadline. I think if Trump extends the deadline again, or the Iranians will really feel they've got the upper hand, that he's so desperate to avoid resuming military action, that they just have to keep pressing on him, and they'll come away with a pretty good deal from their point of view. That's why I think this approach was fundamentally flawed. I think the ceasefire itself was a mistake.

COLLINS: If he doesn't extend the ceasefire. Do you think they can still -- I mean, would the Iranians still negotiate if the United States is striking again, in Iran?

BOLTON: Well, it depends on really how serious it is. I think the President cannot leave the Iranians in control of the Strait. And, in fact, he can't try and solve the problem diplomatically. They now appreciate in Tehran, they can turn this on and off like a light switch. There's only one way that's satisfactory to get out of this, and that's to restore deterrence.

It was obvious for decades that the Strait of Hormuz could be choked off by Iran if it wanted to. It never did it before. Now it's palpable. And the only way to avoid them being able to close it anytime they want is to punish them militarily, so that they know if they try it again, they'll be punished again. I don't know that Trump's willing to do that.

COLLINS: Yes. I mean, we saw the Strait being open. Then Iran was like, No, it's closed. Obviously, I mean, the President is very frustrated by that.

But can I -- as we're watching this, and you hear so many different things coming from the White House.

And obviously, you take everything that the Iranians say with a grain of salt, because, I mean, they're also blustering in public, even though still apparently going to talks in Pakistan.

I mean, some people might look at this and say, Who should we believe in terms of the decisions and justifications, and whatnot that we are making? What would you say to that?

BOLTON: Well, I think everything is hyperbole in the Trump White House, and most of it is hyperbole coming from Tehran. Theodore Roosevelt used to say, Speak softly and carry a big stick. That motto is lost somewhere in this White House. They can't find that. It's been misfiled.

COLLINS: Do you have any idea of how you think this ends up, based on where we sit tonight?

BOLTON: Well, I think the dominant mood for Trump is he wants out. And he will find a way out, I think that will be unsatisfactory. But he'll declare victory and hope he can get away with it. That's what I fear.

COLLINS: Ambassador John Bolton, we'll see what happens in Islamabad. Thank you for joining us tonight.

BOLTON: Thank you.

COLLINS: Up next. Also out of the White House, a new update, a third Cabinet Secretary is now out in less than two months. Who it is and why they're leaving. That's next.

Also, there's this viral conspiracy theory. You've probably seen it. It's gaining traction tonight, again. No new evidence, but now we're hearing from a lot of MAGA and conservatives questioning whether or not that assassination attempt on President Trump was even real.

Plus, why the federal government is investing $50 million into researching a psychedelic drug, and why Joe Rogan was part of it.

[21:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COLLINS: Tonight, another Trump Cabinet Secretary is out, as the White House announced that the Labor Secretary, Lori Chavez-DeRemer, is stepping down to take a job in the private sector, though they didn't say which job she's taking. Now, her deputy, Keith Sonderling, is going to take her place in an acting capacity, according to the White House.

But this is the third Cabinet shakeup that we've seen in less than two months, after, of course, there had been no Cabinet turnover before that. That comes after the President fired the Attorney General, Pam Bondi, and the DHS Secretary, Kristi Noem.

But when it comes to the Labor Secretary tonight, you see, she's touting her work in her post on X, saying that they made significant progress in advancing the President's mission. What she doesn't say, though, is that her tenure has been filled with serious allegations of misconduct.

The New York Times previously reported that her husband was banned from the Department's headquarters, amid sexual assault reports. A criminal investigation into that has since been closed. And last month, two of her top aides were forced out amid a probe into misconduct as well.

And a source tells CNN that the Department's Inspector General's office, basically the watchdog for the Labor Department, has been investigating a complaint that Secretary Chavez-DeRemer was having a sexual relationship with a member of her security team. She's also accused of other inappropriate actions, like sending staff to pick up liquor, and attempting to use business trips as an excuse for personal travel.

In a statement to CNN, before her departure was announced today, her attorney said that her -- Mission-focused and committed to President Trump with utmost loyalty, Secretary Chavez-DeRemer will not comment on biased and absurd allegations against her.

I want to talk about this tonight with my political sources.

Van Jones, a former Obama administration official.

And David Urban, who is a former Trump campaign adviser.

And Van, when you look at this, in terms of the Cabinet overall, and the impact this has had. I mean, first off, there was no turnover. Now, within less than two months, three people have been ousted.

VAN JONES, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER OBAMA ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: Yes.

COLLINS: With very serious allegations against the Labor Secretary.

[21:25:00]

JONES: And look, I mean, it's like "The Real Housewives" or something, like some crazy like reality TV show. The stuff they're talking about, sleeping with security details, asking people to get your wine.

You're supposed to be helping Americans get jobs. Literally, you're in charge of the Department of Labor. Everybody's hurt, and everybody's uncertain, everybody needs something, and these people are just doing nutty stuff.

And it seems to be an epidemic over there, because we had another person being accused of an affair on a plane. I mean, who is hiring these people?

COLLINS: I mean, David, to the point about the wine comment that Van made. If people weren't following this closely. There's an internal investigation that was underway. I'm not sure what will happen to it, now that she's leaving.

But The New York Times reported that she asked a staffer to bring wine to her room, texting, quote, Do they sell by the bottle? And the staff member responded that they did, but they were out of Rose. And Ms. Chavez-DeRemer responded with another selection, How about the josh sauvi B.

I mean, do you think that's appropriate, David?

DAVID URBAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN ADVISER: Well, Kaitlan, if you -- if you or Van, expect me to kind of get on -- get a shield, and start defending it? It's indefensible, obviously.

Look, when you're when you're a Cabinet Secretary, you're a principal in these agencies, your good work is supposed to be making the news, not those -- you're not supposed to make the news and bad headlines like that. So, stuff like that starts occurring. Whether it's true or not true, right? It becomes difficult for you to do your job in any of these instances.

And so, if you're the President, you want to see that go because you want to be able to focus on the things that are happening in the agency. Like Van said, workforce development. There's lots of things that the administration is doing well. And when the Cabinet Secretary's foibles become the headline, and the work that's being done is not? Time to put somebody else in there and remove that -- remove that from the headlines.

So it's, there's no -- there's no defend -- defending it. She can defend it. But you're pushing a big rock up a hill in that instance.

COLLINS: Yes. I mean, one of the things, Van, that I was surprised by was how long this took, actually. Because, the President does not like allegations like this, about his staff, or when there are negative headlines about them. I mean, obviously, with Pam Bondi and Kristi Noem, he eventually just didn't like the job they were doing, and didn't think Pam Bondi was going after enough of his people.

But her husband and her father were also part of this.

JONES: Yes. COLLINS: And I mean, in one instance, last year, her father reportedly said to a staffer, I'm hearing you're in town. Wishing you would let me know. I could have made some excuses to get out and show you around. Please keep this private.

JONES: Yes.

COLLINS: I mean, it's incredibly odd stuff that her father is texting staff in her department.

JONES: Yes. When your daddy is in there, being Creepy McCreepster. Your husband is booted out because he's Creepy McCreepster. Like, this is -- this is not a good group.

And Trump just lets this thing just play out. What did he think was going to happen at some point? Like, something good was going to happen? She was going to like, you know, like, cure cancer? Like, this should have been ended as soon as the dad was doing weird stuff.

And so, I think that for everyday people, they're looking at this White House, and they're saying, This is not what I voted for. You said, we're going to have no wars. You said, we're going to have low prices. You said, we're going to be winning and winning and winning. This is not winning. This type of stuff is not winning.

COLLINS: Yes, I mean, on that front, and speaking of, David, where this is going. The midterm elections are obviously coming up. This is something that is kind of looming over the West Wing. White House officials think about a lot, especially in terms of this war.

The President was just tonight talking about his party staying together, or the concern that maybe they won't, ahead of the midterms.

Here's what he told tonight in an interview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We have some -- we have some great people, I'll tell you, we have -- Mike Johnson's done a great job. But we're always fighting against this, this. The one thing the Democrats do, they stick together, even on really horrible policy. I always say, they have horrible policy, but they stick together.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Do you think that's it, David? Or do you think, I mean, there's real issues that Republicans are facing, including, the Energy Secretary telling Jake Tapper yesterday, he doesn't know if gas will be under $3 a gallon until maybe 2027.

URBAN: Well, listen, Van can attest to this, and what the President's always admired is, Speaker Pelosi, she did not suffer fools. Speaker Pelosi. You spoke out of line? You'd walk the plank. There was no -- there was no vying away from message discipline.

And Donald Trump really admired that about her, and that's what he's speaking about here in this clip there with John Solomon, is, I think that he sees these intramural squabbles in the Republican Party about, pick a policy, and he looks and shakes his head and looks at Pelosi and thinks like, Man, she was a thousand times -- the Democrats were thousand times worse, and she got everyone to march lockstep. It wasn't -- it wasn't Joe Biden that the people were afraid of. People were afraid of Nancy Pelosi, and I think that's what the President's talking to.

[21:30:00]

And you do have some real concerns here. There's -- half the party does -- you know, does not want to be involved in this incursion in Iraq right now, half the party would have been, you know, this is what they -- this is what they voted for, the guy for, as you correctly pointed out earlier, no foreign wars, reduced prices, all those things that he promised to do. And lo and behold, we're kind of there. And JD Vance, and there's a--

COLLINS: Yes.

URBAN: --the great swath of people who are now left to try to fix it and clean it up. And I think there's a little bit of healthy discourse on that.

COLLINS: Yes, we'll see what happens.

David Urban. Van Jones. Great to have both of you here.

URBAN: You don't have -- you don't have to -- listen, you don't have -- you don't have to have -- you don't have to have unanimity, to have unity. That's all I'd say, though.

COLLINS: On that deep thought, we'll leave it there.

David Urban. Van Jones. Great to have both.

Up next. I mentioned, there's this conspiracy theory that's gaining traction online. Why some of the President's biggest supporters are claiming the 2024 assassination attempt against him was staged? Donie O'Sullivan is here next.

[21:35:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Conspiracy theories about President Trump's first assassination attempt have seemingly infiltrated the MAGA world.

Some liberals have entertained conspiracies about that Butler shooting that I should note, left a father and a husband dead.

But more recently, it has been notable figures on the right who are asking questions about the incident. That includes Joe Kent who, of course, was the official who just resigned as the President's Director of the National Counterterrorism Center.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE KENT, FORMER DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL COUNTERTERRORISM CENTER: I mean, we still don't know what happened in Butler. We don't know what happened with Charlie Kirk. And I'm -- by no means, am I saying like, you know, the Israelis did this, or any of that. But I'm saying there's a lot of unanswered questions there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Over the weekend, Marjorie Taylor Greene reshared a post on X from a 2024 Trump delegate that said, quote, "Since the attempt on his life, Trump has shown no interest in investigating what really happened. He never mentions it, it's as if it never happened, except when he tells us, he took a bullet for us."

Marjorie Taylor Greene, responded and said, I'm not calling the Butler assassination a hoax. But there are a lot of questions that deserve public answers.

CNN's Donie O'Sullivan joins me tonight.

And obviously, Donie, I mean, this is something that we were talking about, you said, it's really picking up, that there are people who seem to think it was staged.

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and you mentioned Joe Kent there. He did that Tucker Carlson interview, last month, and it's really picked up since then.

And I think there's a bit of a domino effect from a lot of the MAGA base disappointed and losing trust in Trump, when it comes to Epstein, and then the war in Iran, and that is now sort of bleeding into this conspiracy theories about Butler.

And you heard Kent mention there, sort of putting out the idea that in some way Israel might have had a hand in the assassination attempt. There's no evidence at all for that whatsoever. In fact, both DOJs under Presidents Biden and Trump have said the same thing, that Thomas Crooks acted alone.

Kind of fanning the flames of this, of course, is Tucker Carlson. He's been on this for quite a few months, sort of coming at it from a different perspective, which is just saying, There should be more information out there, kind of echoing what Marjorie Taylor Greene just said.

Take a listen to what Tucker has said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TUCKER CARLSON, PODCAST HOST: The far more significant story involves the government, the DOJ and the FBI, which have hidden from the public what they know about Thomas Crooks.

(END VIDEO CLIP) O'SULLIVAN: And so, this has put obviously Dan -- this has put Kash Patel, the FBI Director, in a pretty awkward spot. He himself, of course, had trafficked in conspiracy theories along with the former deputy FBI Director, Dan Bongino. But they, again, are saying what the DOJ and FBI have said all along, that Crooks acted alone.

COLLINS: But that's such an interesting point that you make there. Because, I mean, before, it was easy, you know, with Jeffrey Epstein and all this stuff, to say People in power are protecting him. They're doing this.

But now, it's their people who are in power. I mean, it's their president that they want in power, their podcasters that they want in power, when it comes to Dan Bongino when he was Deputy Director. And now, the mistrust is even among the base.

O'SULLIVAN: Yes. And of course, this isn't anything new. I was at the RNC, of course, the attempted -- attempt on Trump's life in Butler happened right before the RNC.

And we were outside the convention, talking to some anti-Trump protesters just a couple of days after the attempt on his life, and this what they had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

O'SULLIVAN: So, you initially thought it was staged?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, we all did.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We all did.

O'SULLIVAN: Do you still believe that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We don't know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm not sure.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's not impossible.

But I couldn't help but wonder, because we've been lied to over and over by this man. The way he came up and raised his fist and acted like it was nothing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'SULLIVAN: And look, I mean, I think this -- I mean, it's a very sad reflection of the state of things, in the United States, at the moment, where people really do not know what to trust. But I would just say, when it comes to Trump and the MAGA base, he's -- Trump has obviously played with fire for many years, when it comes to stoking conspiracy theories. And now you sort of see it coming back to bite him.

COLLINS: Donie O'Sullivan, thanks for joining us.

O'SULLIVAN: Thank you.

COLLINS: And everyone, if you did not get enough Donie tonight, you can catch Donie's show, "Devoted." It streams now on the CNN All Access app. It is excellent.

[21:40:00]

Up next here for us. Joe Rogan was in the Oval Office this weekend. He had convinced the President to invest in researching a psychedelic drug. The Commissioner of the FDA who was at the White House event as well, is going to join me, right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: He has been an outspoken critic of the President's war in Iran, but the podcast host, Joe Rogan, was in the Oval Office this weekend, as the President signed an Executive Order to expand research into psychedelic treatments, including a drug known as Ibogaine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: In 2024 study from Stanford University, 30 Special Operations veterans with traumatic brain injuries underwent, it's called Ibogaine treatment. Ibogaine. Because it's so important. And experienced an 80 to 90 percent reduction in symptoms of depression and anxiety within one month.

Can I have some, please? I'll take some.

(LAUGHTER)

TRUMP: I'll take whatever it takes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well--

[21:45:00]

TRUMP: No. I don't have time to be depressed. You know, if you stay busy enough, maybe that works too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: The President announced in that moment that the federal government is going to invest $50 million into researching the psychedelic effects of this drug, which comes from a central African plant and remains illegal in the United States.

The way Joe Rogan tells it, the President's research push only came about after he sent a text.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE ROGAN, PODCAST HOST: I want to tell everybody how this happened. I sent President Trump some information.

The text message came back, Sounds great. Do you want FDA approval? Let's do it.

(LAUGHTER)

ROGAN: It was literally that quick.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: My source tonight was at the Oval Office event and could oversee the FDA approval process. Dr. Marty Makary is the Commissioner of the FDA.

And thank you, sir, for being here.

Obviously, you hear what Joe Rogan said, the President offering to help get FDA approval for Ibogaine. Do you expect that that could happen anytime soon?

MARTY MAKARY, FDA COMMISSIONER: I think it will happen soon, Kaitlan, because these applications have matured, the Phase 3 clinical trials are reading out, and they're about to arrive at the FDA. Once we have them in house, we'll be issuing National Priority Vouchers for a review within one to two months, instead of the standard one-year timeframe. And that's because this is a national priority.

We lose almost 6,000 veterans a year to suicide. That's more than the entire Iraq and Afghan wars, since the time of those wars in totality. So, the wars are over, for many of these veterans, but our men and women are still dying, and that's because the battle is still raging in their minds. And this is a condition that makes it hard to assimilate, for many of them, hard to hold relationships. It tortures many of them. They're aware of it. And they're looking for something.

So, these are potentially promising treatments. We'll see how the data reads out, when we get the applications. But we don't want to waste any time, because this is an urgent matter, given the mental health crisis.

COLLINS: Yes, and I think anyone wants help for someone who has PTSD, or veterans.

But on the technical front. I mean, if the DEA is still classifying this as a Schedule I drug, alongside drugs like heroin, how does the FDA fast-track approval for something like that?

MAKARY: Well, that's good point. So, the FDA has a system with the DEA by which, when a drug becomes FDA-approved, and the FDA sets clear criteria, then it can be given with a transient de-scheduling that is exempt from those enforcement rules, because it's given in a hospital setting or in a clinic setting, under clinical supervision.

So, if these drugs are approved, if this class of drugs that are known as psychedelics, we call them Serotonin 2A agonists, or perception- altering drugs, if they do get approved, these are not the medications you'll just pick up at a pharmacy. These are given in a controlled, supervised setting, in a hospital.

COLLINS: I mentioned Joe Rogan. How much of a role did he play in this happening?

MAKARY: Well, the trials have just read out, and you see a 30 to 40 percent remission rate with the intervention for some of these debilitating mental health illnesses. The applications are just about to arrive at the FDA. We've had a plan to prioritize this class of medications. So, this was the natural time for some of that enthusiasm around the potential promise of these medications to come together.

A lot of people have been talking about it. Because, we don't just have the randomized controlled trials in the formal high science. We also have these dramatic testimonials of individuals who have found relief, significant relief, from feeling suicidal or being in total despair. Some of these trials are looking at psychedelics for addiction, opioid use disorder, and traumatic brain injury, where we really don't have anything right now for these individuals.

COLLINS: Yes.

MAKARY: So, I don't think psychedelics are a cure to all of our problems, but they are potentially promising.

COLLINS: But on Ibogaine specifically, since it's what's mentioned in the President's Executive Order, was that under consideration before Joe Rogan texted Trump?

MAKARY: Yes, we've had an application for something called an IND or an Investigational New Drug clearance, and we issued that last week. And I made that announcement. The timing worked out, right during the time of the Oval.

So, we have now a clearance for Ibogaine, which will allow for human clinical trials for the first time in the United States, paving the way for more research and, ultimately, a decision from the agency.

COLLINS: OK. So, we'll see how that goes and how that progresses.

[21:50:00]

I'm also curious for your take on the other huge news that we got today, welcome news for a lot of people, as cancer researchers are seeing promising signs for mRNA vaccines when it comes to treating pancreatic cancer. As you know, that is one of the deadliest cancers.

It does come months after HHS and the Secretary there canceled $500 million in funding for mRNA vaccine contracts.

Do you think, in light of this new research, that HHS should rethink that decision?

MAKARY: Well, first of all, Kaitlan, I've taken care of pancreas cancer patients at Johns Hopkins for over two decades. I'm ecstatic to see some exciting new treatments for pancreatic cancer. We've issued a National Priority Voucher for another KRAS inhibitor, another class of medications separate from that of the vaccine treatments. There's a number of exciting treatments.

And when it came to the mRNA vaccine research from HHS, I was very clear, we are excited about that potential technology. We just felt like it should be the companies, that made $50 billion from mRNA technology during the COVID pandemic, that should be funding their own research, not taxpayer dollars. Taxpayer dollars should be going for research that nobody else in the market or investor community will fund.

So, this research was privately funded, and as you can see, it is potentially promising. I'm looking forward to those applications coming to the FDA.

COLLINS: If it's a matter of these companies having enough money to fund their own research. When HHS canceled those contracts, they didn't mention funding in the statement. Instead, they said that they were turning towards safer, broader vaccine platforms. They seem to be passing (ph) down on mRNA itself.

MAKARY: Well, let me give you -- we've -- first of all, we've approved two mRNA updated shots in the first year of the Trump administration, here in this term.

What we are funding with the money from ARPA-H that was going to mRNA vaccines are things that otherwise would not be funded that could have profound impacts for those with deafness, blindness, cancer, areas that are in blind spots in American medicine and research.

Let me give you an example. Some of that money was diverted for a potential universal flu shot. That means that you could potentially get one shot with long-lasting decades-long protection, without having to get an annual flu shot each year. It could also enable protection against flu strains that have yet to mutate. So, it is an important pandemic preparedness thing.

Companies are generally not interested in funding research for a new vaccine that's going to replace their annual vaccine with the annual revenue that comes in from those vaccines. So, that's an example of sort of an area of research funding and medicines blind spots -- blind spot that desperately needed funding.

COLLINS: But obviously, mRNA changed and saved so many lives during COVID. It helped that vaccine get produced incredibly quickly, and you've seen how quickly they can update vaccines that need to be, because a virus mutates.

Some people might hear this Executive Order on Ibogaine -- and you're saying, We need to research this, because if there's something out there that could help someone, we should be investing in that -- And look at that and say, That seems contradictory with canceling so much money in mRNA research that obviously did bring a lot of good to people in the world.

MAKARY: Well, look, first of all, I do think the COVID shot did save lives. I think canceling is one term, but what really happened is shifting the funding to other underfunded areas of research in American medicine.

At the FDA, we are referees. We want to see applications come to the agency, and we have a very simple task from Congress, and that is for companies who bring data to the FDA, do the claims that they want to make around their drugs match the data that they submit. And if they are safe and effective, regardless of what the condition is being treated, then we have a legal obligation to make a decision on those claims. So, that's what we're doing.

I'd like to see more cures and meaningful treatments for the American public. That's the charge President Trump has given me.

The fastest FDA approval was 42 days, when HIV activists were demonstrating all over D.C. We need to have that same level of urgency that we did with HIV, with cancer, and PTSD, and mental illness, and opioid use disorder, and so many other conditions. We're going to have a decision out shortly on a condition that causes congenital deafness in kids.

We need to have urgency with all of these issues. And so, that's the exciting time we're in, right now in medicine. And we're not passive at the FDA. We're not in receive-only mode. We're on the hunt, and we're doing -- getting decisions out in record speed.

COLLINS: FDA Commissioner, Marty Makary, thank you for joining us tonight. We really appreciate you taking the time to do so.

MAKARY: Thank you, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: Up next. We have an update from Apple. No, it's not one for your phone. Tim Cook is stepping down as the CEO. Who's replacing him?

[21:55:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: We have some breaking news tonight, as Tim Cook is now stepping down as the CEO of Apple, after more than a decade leading the company to become a $4 trillion company. He defined the company's identity, after Steve Jobs' death, and pushed Apple beyond the Mac, the iPod, the iPhone. Thanks to Tim Cook, an Alabama native, Apple also became a significant player in entertainment, health and wearables.

On Apple's website, a letter from Cook describes how he started every day over the last 15 years as CEO. He said, quote, "I open my email and I read notes I received the day before from Apple's users all over the world."

[22:00:00]

He also navigated his company's relationship with President Trump, including pledging to invest $600 billion in expanding Apple's footprint in the United States, after facing pressure from the President to make and manufacture iPhones domestically.

John Ternus is Apple's Senior Vice President of Hardware Engineering. He is going to take over as CEO, starting September 1st. You can now direct all your complaints to him.

Thanks so much for joining us.

"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.