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The Source with Kaitlan Collins

White House: No "Firm Deadline" For Iranian Peace Proposal; U.S. Navy Secretary Ousted Amid U.S. Naval Blockade Of Iran; Lawmakers Grill RFK Jr. On Vaccine Policy, Measles, Trump Budget. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired April 22, 2026 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[21:00:00]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: --so Earthshine is sunlight that bounces off our planet and travels to the Moon. This could be the first time it's been captured, in video, by an astronaut, this far in space. Remarkable.

That's it for us. The news continues. I'll see you tomorrow. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Tonight, our new reporting on why the head of the Navy was just pushed out of his job, while the U.S. Navy is blockading Iranian ports.

I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.

As we come on the air tonight from Washington, there is breaking news from the Persian Gulf, all the way to the Pentagon. Iran is now opening fire on ships in the Strait of Hormuz. As CNN has learned tonight that the U.S. Secretary of the Navy, John Phelan, has just been abruptly pushed out by the Defense Secretary, Pete Hegseth. The Pentagon says that Phelan is leaving his position, quote, Effective immediately.

Now, just about 24 hours ago, Phelan was out addressing a large crowd of sailors at an annual Navy conference, here in Washington, laying out his plans for the future. Now dealt the same fate, as the Army's Chief of Staff, and several top generals who were also fired by Secretary Hegseth in recent weeks.

Our sources tell us tonight that there had been tension between Phelan and Hegseth for months, and that Hegseth didn't like that Phelan had direct communication with President Trump, which he viewed as an attempt to bypass him. Reminder, Phelan was a huge donor to President Trump's. Hence that relationship there.

But what this means tonight is that this ouster is coming at a critical moment, because the United States Navy, right now, is in the middle of blockading Iranian ports. In return, we're seeing Iranian forces escalating and firing on three ships in the Strait, with Iranian state media putting out this video, which they say shows Iranian soldiers taking control of one of those massive container ships.

The White House says, though, that given what's happened, President Trump does not view this as a violation of the ceasefire that he just extended.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: These were not U.S. ships. These were not Israeli ships. These were two international vessels.

These two ships were taken by speedy gunboats. Iran has gone from having the most lethal Navy in the Middle East, to now acting like a bunch of pirates. They don't have control over the Strait. This is piracy that we are seeing on display.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: So, the White House argues, it's not a violation of the ceasefire.

What about a new deadline for the peace talks?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEAVITT: The President has not set a firm deadline to receive an Iranian proposal, unlike some of the reporting I've seen today. Ultimately, the timeline will be dictated by the Commander-in-Chief and the President of the United States.

Ultimately, he will dictate the timetable. And again, he is satisfied with the naval blockade, and he understands that Iran is in a very weak position, and the cards are in President Trump's hands right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Now, when President Trump was asked today, when the war, that he once estimated would last four to six weeks, might come to an end, the President said there is, quote, No time frame and no rush, as we are now in week seven.

It's worth underscoring how the President has set five separate deadlines in just the last month alone, demanding that Iran come to his terms or face his wrath.

And my source tonight served as the Secretary of State under President Barack Obama, and led the negotiations for the previous Iran nuclear deal. Secretary John Kerry is here.

And thank you so much, sir, for being here.

I mean, just given your background, and what you negotiated. You sat across the table from the Iranians. Can you tell us what it is like, to deal with them, to negotiate with them, on a nuclear agreement?

JOHN KERRY, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE, FORMER CHAIRMAN, SENATE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE, FORMER SPECIAL PRESIDENTIAL ENVOY FOR CLIMATE: Well, we negotiated over a period of about four years, two of them with a very large contingent of people.

And so, we got to know each other, all of us, extremely well, and we built up at least a core relationship of being professional, disagreeing, and disagreeing about a lot of things, but being professional, and trying to keep the temperature down, so that we didn't announce every evening, we didn't announce every day, we didn't attack each other on a very regular basis. We labored for the goal of seeing if we could find an agreement. And that's what needs to happen now.

I really believe, I think the President has made the right choice, in the last day or so, to kind of lower his rhetorical attacks.

[21:05:00]

And I think the Iranians need to find their equilibrium here. They need to realize that this could spin out of control, and that will be good for nobody. So, I think it's essential that the Iranians get serious about really negotiating and coming to some kind of an agreement.

There's no way for this, I think. Ultimately. It's going to go back and forth with massive political -- with massive physical damage, and the risk of this breaking out in a way that becomes uncontrollable is real right now. They need to get to the table. They need to negotiate. There are big issues that need to be dealt with. And my hope is that Iran is going to come prepared to really deal with those.

COLLINS: If there's no deadline on the ceasefire, which right now there's not, after the President extended it last night. Do you think that still is enough to prompt them to come to the table?

KERRY: I don't think anybody can predict precisely what they're thinking now, because there's no clarity as to who is completely in charge.

It appears as if the Foreign Minister, Abbas Araghchi, who we did negotiate with, he was the deputy to my counterpart, it appears as if he was chastised and pulled back from his effort to say, the Straits are open. So, the IRGC is maybe, maybe more powerful today than it was before this began, and that is not a good outcome.

If I were President Trump, I'd be really concerned. That he started out against foreign wars, and for lowering the cost of living for average citizens in America. And the exact opposite has happened. Those costs are going up, and we are in another foreign entanglement.

So, there are a lot of reasons why everybody ought to get to the table, behave like adults, notwithstanding the affronts that everybody feels for one thing or another. You got to be professional diplomats here, and get to the task of negotiating very tough issues.

COLLINS: You mentioned the people that they're negotiating with, the Iranians. Obviously, the White House is saying, Their leadership is fractured. That's why they're struggling to even meet again in-person right now.

In terms of who is representing the United States here, when you see the team that the President has, doing these negotiations, from the Vice President JD Vance, to Secretary Rubio, to Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner, how do you assess their performance so far?

KERRY: I have no way to assess that. I have no idea what their internal conversations are. I have no idea what they've been told is a bottom line and what they need to get. It's very hard to judge the possibilities here on both sides. That's why it's so important for them to recognize, this is not the moment for one ship or another ship or three ships to be stopped, not the moment for ships to be shot at. It is a moment to build confidence.

And I think the President, by keeping open-ended the ceasefire, and saying that for the moment it's there, he's really trying to give people an opportunity to get to the table. And shame on anybody who doesn't take advantage of that moment, to try to have the discussion that the world wants people to have. I mean, this is affecting everybody in the world, in very negative ways, and I think there's a deep concern that it could still get out of control.

The IRGC were against the nuclear agreement when we were negotiating. Yet, the Ayatollah and the folks who were negotiating had an ability to be able to tamping things down and to proceed forward.

And the Ayatollah, who was killed recently in the bombings, actually withstood attacks, internally, from people who said, You shouldn't do this. Don't negotiate with the Great Satan. That's what they called us, the Great Satan. And they will disappoint you. They will burn you.

And, and he stood up and said, No, we're going to negotiate. We're going to get this done. We're going to prove we're not after a nuclear weapon.

They did that. They did sign on.

And at the time that the president, President Trump, decided to pull out of the agreement, the fact is that the Israeli intelligence, Chinese, Russian, French, German, British, E.U., all agreed that the Iran nuclear agreement was working. That it allowed us to have the insights on what they were doing, that we had at least a year, during which time they could not break out possibly creating a weapon, and we would have the opportunity then, to change the agreement, or to negotiate something new, or to bomb them, if that were the case.

[21:10:00]

And that has now become a hot confrontation, which remains with the exact same choices that we faced, back in 2015, when President Obama decided that you had to try to resolve this first. Before you bomb, before you do what Prime Minister Netanyahu wanted to do, President Obama wanted to test the extent of diplomacy, and he was successful. We were all successful. And that happened because, frankly, the other side came on board and came along. So, what President Trump now has to do is, frankly, get them to again agree to what they already agreed to, which should underscore the absurdity of the situation that we're finding ourselves in.

COLLINS: You mentioned Prime Minister Netanyahu. And you've said before that he basically laid out the case for attacking Iran, when you were Secretary of State. This is a scenario that other presidents faced. Do they bomb Iran? Do they try to work with them to come into an agreement? Why do you think President Trump said yes, when other presidents said no?

KERRY: Honestly, again, I'm not going to speculate. I wasn't in the Situation Room. I don't know what his thinking was. I don't know how he proceeded here.

What I do know is that, that now getting them to do the same thing they already did has an extra hurdle, which is overcoming your credibility gap. The fact that you already pulled out once, you took the world to this place where there was no nuclear weapon on the table, at least for a year, de minimis. And we followed the rule, not the rule of Ronald Reagan, who said, Trust but verify. We create a new rule, which was, Don't trust, and verify to the greatest degree you possibly can.

So, we had a 130 additional inspectors living in Iran, on the streets, going -- not on the streets, living, but, you know, walking -- talking to people, visiting these facilities, knowing whether any uranium, where the uranium was in the process. I mean, this was a very extensive penetration of accountability and of transparency. And that's gone now. Those inspectors are not on the ground doing what they were doing.

And if there's one rule that we all know about this kind of warfare? You can't bomb the knowledge out of the brains of those scientists who have been working on this for 40 or 50 years. So, what you have to do is create the dynamic, where you have a structure that you know gives you what you want. That's what negotiations are about, and that's why we have diplomacy. And for years, I mean centuries, people have negotiated very difficult moments. This is another one of those moments.

Now, I believe they can get a deal, both. I believe they could get there, and hopefully they will, because all of us need a world that calms down a little bit, that begins to focus on the real difficult tasks of lowering the cost of living for all of our people, of putting people to work, of protecting people.

And we should notice that historically, when the 1973 oil shock hit, when the 1979 oil shock hit, when the recent difficulties were faced by China and others? China decided in 2019 not because of climate, but because of security, to move to huge deployment of renewable energy, and they have become the largest energy provider in the world. They're making money doing it.

COLLINS: Yes.

KERRY: One of the things I remember is President Trump said, We want to compete with China. We want to beat China in the marketplace.

But you don't beat them by literally surrendering the entire field of energy, energy production, and the future of energy, which is the largest market the world has ever known. You don't certainly make America number one, if you're just going to walk away.

COLLINS: Yes. You said that, that you think that they can get a deal here, the United States and Iran. Do you think if they do, it'll look a lot like the one that you negotiated?

KERRY: Again, I'm not -- really not going to speculate. I have no idea exactly where they're at in the dynamics. I don't know. I'm not sure they know what Iran has yet put on the table.

COLLINS: But just given what the President is asking for. No nukes, no enrichment, that they have to remove the enriched uranium--

KERRY: Well everybody -- let me just say to you--

COLLINS: --the nuclear dust, as he calls it. I mean, a lot of those kind of were outlines in the JCPOA.

KERRY: Well, we took -- we took nuclear out -- we took nuclear weapons material away. We destroyed weapons material. They were allowed only to enrich to 3.67 percent. It's physically impossible to make an atomic weapon with enriched uranium of 3.67 percent. So, we took the weapon away.

[21:15:00]

We also made it clear to people that over time, if Iran lived up to this agreement, they might get one thing or another that we'd relax slightly, but nothing relaxed with respect to our ability to be able to know what they were doing.

If they decided to cheat? And they might well have, and we absolutely anticipated that. We would know it, and we had very specific procedures built into the agreement, by which we would then be able to hold them accountable. And if they didn't want to be held accountable and continued to cheat, we had all the options available to us, with diplomacy, with the support of the Europeans, with the support of China and Russia. Not alone, the way the President is proceeding today.

COLLINS: You said you don't want to speculate, and I can appreciate that, I think everyone can, in terms of where this is going, it's not really clear.

But just given the role that you did play in this, and dealing with the Iranians, what advice would you give to either the President, or his team that is on the ground, sitting across from them, if these talks happen again, and trying to get a deal with them.

KERRY: Don't play games. Just be very direct and very clear about what the needs of the nation and the world are, that we all expect that it be clear that Iran can't have a nuclear weapon. You know, every president, Republican and Democrat alike, has always said, Iran cannot get a nuclear weapon. That was the policy of President Obama. It was the policy of President Biden.

But others have approached it in frankly, a far more thoughtful, lengthy, extensive kind of process of examining the pros and cons, bringing our allies to the table, to be part of the discussion, so that they could share the downside, if there were to be one, as well as get the benefits of the upside.

But no, none of that really took place here. We do not have our normal friends by our side. And we see other countries, that we don't particularly want to see gaining in that marketplace of ideas and influence, we see them gaining. And I think the United States obviously has lost an enormous amount of credibility and trust, as a result of this exercise over these last weeks.

COLLINS: Do you worry that that credibility, once gone, is damaged for some time?

KERRY: Well, for some time, depending on what happens in the course of elections and the choices that people face in their countries, for some time, almost certainly. But no, not -- not irretrievably.

I am very confident. I feel strongly that over time, and depending on how our politics flow, how other countries' politics flow, we will find a common ground again and come back and work at healing the wounds.

But we should not treat lightly, the way in which those wounds have been dispersed, and that we shouldn't treat lightly the impact that it has had on relationships that are very important to the United States of America.

COLLINS: Secretary John Kerry, thank you for joining us tonight. I really appreciate you taking the time to do so.

KERRY: My pleasure. Thank you.

COLLINS: Tonight, the President says there is no time frame for ending the war with Iran, and that political considerations are not a factor in his decision.

My next source, Maggie Haberman, is one of the best-sourced reporters, here, is to break down her reporting right after this.

Also, the new TrumpRx is supposed to offer Americans lower drug prices. Some senators checked the price tags, though, and challenged Health Secretary, RFK Jr., on this today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): Do you know what the drug costs at Costco?

ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES: I do not.

WARREN: The drug is $16 at Costco. TrumpRx charges $200 for Protonix, and Costco charges $16.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[21:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: With future talks between the United States and Iran up in the air tonight, and U.S. concerns that Iranian leadership, as our sources describe, they believe, is seriously fractured. The White House is insisting that U.S. officials are negotiating tonight with the right people.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEAVITT: We obviously know who we're negotiating with, because our negotiating team has sat down with those individuals in-person. But obviously, there's a lot of internal fraction and internal division, which, again, just proves the effectiveness of Operation Epic Fury in the first place.

So, again, the President is offering them a little bit of flexibility, because we want to see a unified proposal to the President's very strong proposal, and he's made his red lines very clear.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: My source tonight is Maggie Haberman, who is The New York Times White House correspondent, and also the co-author of the upcoming book, "Regime Change: Inside the Imperial Presidency of Donald Trump," which is available for pre-order now, along with our friend, Jonathan Swan.

Maggie, it's great to have you here tonight.

Because, first off, we do have breaking news in terms of the Navy Secretary being ousted. It seemed to happen pretty abruptly, based on what we're hearing from sources today. He seemed to be pretty caught off-guard by all of it. What are you hearing from people about his ouster tonight?

MAGGIE HABERMAN, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, AUTHOR, "CONFIDENCE MAN," CO-AUTHOR, "REGIME CHANGE: INSIDE THE IMPERIAL PRESIDENCY OF DONALD TRUMP": Definitely, he was caught off-guard by it. Definitely, most of the public was caught off-guard by it. It was a tweet from a Pete Hegseth communications official that made it public.

But this apparently was a long time coming, or a relatively long time coming. He's not -- he was not especially well-liked, clearly, by Pete Hegseth, and that's now fairly well-documented, I think, after what happened today. But he also didn't have a ton of support in the White House, and that does become a problem. [21:25:00]

There are obviously going to be people who are going to point out, as have done with me, I'm sure, have done with you, that we're in the middle of a naval blockade, or the U.S. is, in this fight with Iran. I do think we are beginning a phase of seeing a number of Cabinet-level appointments changing. And this is just the latest.

COLLINS: Yes. I mean, it's remarkable, just from the Cabinet alone. You know, there have been no turnover, and then suddenly, three secretaries were ousted within two months.

HABERMAN: Right.

COLLINS: In terms of this war, though, as this has been going on, what's your sense of where the President's head is at, on things right now?

HABERMAN: You know, it's -- we're in one of those moments, Kaitlan, where if you want to know what he's thinking, you can, you know, we used to talk about this in term one, look at his Truth -- then it was Twitter. Look at his Truth Social feed now. Or listen to the roughly 40 minutes that he spent on "Squawk Box" yesterday. Including with my colleague Andrew Ross Sorkin, who did a great job trying to get real questions in, about what the President might do. At least on economic policy. He's clearly frustrated. He's voicing that almost every day.

I think there is a difference between how he feels and what he is thinking and what -- clearly, how the Iranians are viewing things, as well as how the Pakistanis are viewing things, and whether the people behind the scenes, which really are primarily Jared Kushner and Steve Witkoff are having success, and JD Vance is involved as well, having success, talking to counterparts in Iran, or at least intermediaries.

I think Karoline Leavitt is not wrong. They clearly do know who they are talking to. It just doesn't mean that everything is contiguous. And my sense is the President would like to just be done with this, and he has other things he would like to focus on, but wars are intractable.

COLLINS: Yes. And I mean, as you and Jon Swan write about the talks, in terms of the fact that JD Vance did not get on that plane to Pakistan yesterday. You say, they could be back on at a moment's notice if Iran's negotiators--

HABERMAN: Right.

COLLINS: --respond in a way that President Trump deems acceptable.

I mean, yesterday--

HABERMAN: Right.

COLLINS: --what we were told is it had basically been silence from the Iranians in terms of--

HABERMAN: Right.

COLLINS: --what they had wanted to, at least be agreed to, to show up in Pakistan.

HABERMAN: My understanding, and our understanding and our reporting was -- yes, I mean, it is correct that the Vice President's trip was canceled. They were clearly trying to signal to the Iranians that they were not letting up militarily, but they also were not looking to escalate immediately. And I think that has still been the position.

There has been some difference in what President Trump has been saying, publicly, in terms of escalation today, that that was noticeable, as he's trying to get this back on track. There could be some kind of a change. They could go at a moment's notice.

But what somebody said to us is that if there was a sort of a semi- decent proposal that came back from Iran, that they expected talks would go forward. But so far, there's no sign of that, that we know of anyway.

COLLINS: Yes. Can I ask you? This is separate, but still, I mean, a really remarkable story that came out from your colleague, Michael Schmidt tonight. That the FBI investigated another New York Times reporter--

HABERMAN: Right.

COLLINS: --Elizabeth Williamson, after she published an article about the FBI director's girlfriend, and the full-time security detail that she has gotten from the FBI SWAT teams.

And a source told The New York Times, The FBI combed through the bureau's databases to determine whether the federal government had any information on Ms. Williamson to help make the argument that she deserved further scrutiny.

Apparently, the Justice Department decided there was no legal basis to proceed here. But they were looking in to see whether her aggressive reporting techniques crossed the lines of stalking.

HABERMAN: I think that my colleague, Mike Schmidt, is an excellent reporter.

I think my colleague, Elizabeth Williamson, is an excellent reporter. And from what I know of that story, it's a little hard for me, this story that she did, it's a little -- and I'm sure that the FBI director didn't like it, I'm sure that his partner didn't like it, or aspects of it. But there's a big difference between that what -- I don't know anyone we cover, Kaitlan, who likes what we do, generally speaking. There is a big difference between that, and trying to elevate something to the level of a crime.

This is -- our executive editor, Joe Kahn, sent out a note to colleagues, just making clear that, we are going to continue doing our work. And there may be more of this, and that is not going to stop us from trying to report and end reporting on what is happening, even if it makes people unhappy or uncomfortable.

COLLINS: Yes, I think that's a great point.

And obviously, I should note that in the story, it says that neither The Times nor Ms. Williamson were informed of the steps taken by the FBI to look into her and her reporting. And she did not comment.

HABERMAN: Right.

[21:30:00]

COLLINS: Maggie Haberman, it is always excellent to have you and your reporting. Thanks for joining us here tonight.

HABERMAN: Thanks, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: Coming up. We also have more on what we are learning about the sudden ouster of the Secretary of the Navy. The retired Admiral, William McRaven, who has a new book out now, is joining me, with his thoughts, right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:35:00]

COLLINS: On our breaking news tonight, the Pentagon says the Navy Secretary, John Phelan, is out of the job effective immediately, as the United States Navy is in the middle of enforcing a blockade of Iranian ports. So far, we know that U.S. forces have redirected 31 vessels to return to port, and have also boarded two ships.

My source tonight is retired U.S. Navy Admiral, William H. McRaven, who spent 37 years as a Navy SEAL, commanding at every level, and is also the author of the new book, "Duty, Honor, Country & Life: A Tribute to the American Spirit."

And it's great to have you back here on the show, sir. And congratulations on the new book.

I do have to ask you, though, about this breaking news, with the Secretary of Defense ousting now more than a dozen top officials. We're told he was often at odds with the Navy chief. I wonder, in your view, what the risks are of shakeups or any kind of drama between military leadership, at a time like this one.

ADM. WILLIAM H. MCRAVEN (RET.), U.S. NAVY (RET.), AUTHOR, "DUTY, HONOR, COUNTRY & LIFE: A TRIBUTE TO THE AMERICAN SPIRIT": Yes, well, thanks, Kaitlan. Great to join you.

You know, this is not the first Secretary of Defense that has fired a Service Secretary. If you go back to 2008, Secretary Bob Gates fired the Chief of Staff of the Air Force and the Secretary of the Air Force. Now that was for concerns over the nuclear arsenal. This seems to be more of a personality conflict between Secretary Hegseth and the Secretary of the Navy. But what your listeners need to understand is the Secretary of the Navy, with all due respect to the Secretary of Navy, has very little, if any, impact on the tactical operations that are happening out in the Middle East.

Admiral Brad Cooper, who is the CENTCOM commander, and then the Fifth Fleet Commander, and then the Task Force commanders on scene, they're the ones that are dealing with the blockade, and all the action that's occurring in the Persian Gulf and in the Gulf of Oman.

There is absolutely nothing that the Secretary of the Navy does day to day that has any impact on that.

COLLINS: Yes, that's helpful context.

And in terms of the blockade itself, it's very much still in effect. If you were advising the President and his top aides on this, what would you say to them, right now, in terms of trying to get the Iranians back to the negotiating table.

H. MCRAVEN: Yes, this is, right now, we're at an impasse. The fact of the matter is, the Iranians do not want to come to the negotiating table until we lift the blockade. But on the part of the President, the blockade is a little bit of leverage that he's got. So, both sides don't want to move until the other one does. So, we're going to find out who blinks first.

But having said that, if I were advising the President, I would tell him to go ahead and lift the blockade, if, if that will get the Iranians to the negotiating table. Because, at the end of the day, the President wants somebody responsible, from the Iranian government, to come in, sit down at the negotiating table, figure out whether we can get the Straits of Hormuz open, whether we can get them to stop enriching the highly-enriched uranium. And he's only going to be able to do that, I think, if he brings them to the table.

The blockade can be turned back on in a moment. So, if he's going to have a ceasefire, lift the blockade. And if the Iranians don't comply, and if they don't come to Islamabad, then go ahead and put the blockade back in play. This is not something that requires a massive change in tactics. You just stop the blockade, turn it back on when you need to.

COLLINS: I'm not sure if you heard Karoline Leavitt say earlier that obviously Iran's Navy has been debilitated by this war. She says, now, they're using speed boats, they're just acting like a bunch of pirates.

H. MCRAVEN: Sure.

COLLINS: I mean, obviously they still are able to inflict some damage. They're still in control of the Strait of Hormuz. What's your view on their strength right now?

H. MCRAVEN: Yes, well, make no mistake about it, they still can control the Straits of Hormuz. These fast-attack boats they have, whether they're the Boston Whalers, or whether they're the cigarette boats, the Special Operations Forces you see here boarding one of their vessels, they have the ability to control the Straits, and they have the ability to put our vessels at risk, with drones, with short- range ballistic missiles. So, this is a leverage point the Iranians have.

And again, back to my point, if the President wants them to open up the Straits of Hormuz, he's going to have to get them to the negotiating table. And the only way that seems like they're going to come is if we lift the blockade, and we can use that, again, as leverage to say, Come to the table. If you don't come to the table, then we'll put the blockade back on.

COLLINS: In your new book, you said this about it. It's called "Duty, Honor, Country & Life." You say you hope it reaffirms faith in our country and our future.

H. MCRAVEN: Yes.

COLLINS: Over these last seven weeks, and just in this moment, as people have been paying attention all over the world about this war, but specifically with the United States. If people are losing faith in America, what do you think their takeaway will be from your new book?

H. MCRAVEN: Yes, well, I hope they will be inspired by the new book. The fact of the matter is, Kaitlan, I travel all around the country. I teach a class at the University of Texas, with young students.

[21:40:00]

And I spend my days out and about with the American people. And the American people are fabulous. They are wonderful. They are inspiring. They have great values. You don't see this when you are watching the 24-hour news cycle about what's happening in Iran. You don't see this, when you have to listen to the President, and to listen to the Secretary. But you see this when you get out and about amongst the people, and particularly the young people.

I am the biggest fan of the millennials and the Gen Z that you'll ever meet. So, whenever I start getting a little down about the direction of the country, I go back into the classroom, or I spend time with young people all around the country, and I get uplifted by it. And you will see this in the stories and the speeches and some of my other writings in this book.

COLLINS: I'm a millennial, so I will take that.

But I do think that's nice to hear, because so many people do focus on that generation, a lot of them, you read in polls, have grim outlooks, on their futures.

H. MCRAVEN: Yes.

COLLINS: If you had to pick one of your speeches that you would want someone to listen to, which one would it be? H. MCRAVEN: Yes, I think for -- again, for the younger generation, I would offer the MIT Commencement address that I gave in 2020. And this was at a time when we were, you know, in the pandemic, I actually had to give the address remotely, and this was at a time when we were seeing heroes everywhere, the delivery men and women, the doctors that were working in the hospitals and the nurses.

And so, my speech was about heroes. And my point to the students was, Look, Captain America isn't coming to save us. Superman isn't coming. Batman isn't coming. Harry Potter is not coming. At the end of the day, it's up to us. And you know what? There are great heroes out there.

And I gave them some ideas on what I thought it would take for them to be heroes. You have to be courageous. You have to be humble, you know. You have to be men and women of integrity, and you have to have compassion. And so, I think that speech will resonate not just with the young audiences, but hopefully with the older baby boomer generation as well.

COLLINS: It's a speech for everyone.

Admiral McRaven. The book is "Duty, Honor, Country & Life: A Tribute to the American Spirit." Thank you for having us for your service. It's always great to have you here on THE SOURCE.

H. MCRAVEN: Thank you, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: And up next here for us. There was a critical hearing here, actually multiple, with the Health Secretary, RFK Jr., on Capitol Hill. My next source was one of the lawmakers who questioned him. What the Health Secretary said about the administration's response to the growing measles outbreak.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MICHAEL BENNET (D-CO): Last year the United States had the highest number of measles cases in 30 years, that the -- that the last time we had more than that was before--

KENNEDY JR.: The whole world did.

BENNET: --measles--

KENNEDY JR.: The whole world did.

BENNET: Yes, we were the leader, Mr. Kennedy.

KENNEDY JR.: We still are.

BENNET: We need--

KENNEDY JR.: We have a 92 percent vaccination rate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[21:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Lawmakers squared off with the HHS Secretary, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., in a pair of tense hearings on Capitol Hill today.

Kennedy is actually capping off a marathon seven appearances before Congress, in just the last week. Most of them, at times, have devolved into heated exchanges, on everything from vaccine policy and measles outbreaks, to a scrutiny of a proposed budget that would make deep cuts to the nation's health-related spending.

It comes, as CNN has learned that aides to the President have sought to rein in Kennedy, according to these sources, on efforts to overhaul vaccines ahead of the midterm elections.

Now, multiple senators today pushed the HHS Secretary to clarify his own history of vaccine skepticism.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BEN RAY LUJAN (D-NM): I'm real curious if you're going to include funding coordinated vaccine education and distribution campaign, for example, countering misinformation about measles and the MMR vaccine.

KENNEDY JR.: Tell me one piece of misinformation I've ever said. One statement. Just one.

RAY LUJAN: If I could continue, Mr. Secretary?

KENNEDY JR.: You say you have a list of them. Read one.

RAY LUJAN: Tailoring outreach to communities with declining vaccination rates as well, measuring whether those campaigns are working--

KENNEDY JR.: You're just making things up, Senator. You're just inventing stuff.

BENNET: Are you taking the position, as your CDC director has taken, that the measles vaccine is vital to keeping American children healthy in this country? Are you taking that position today? That has not been your position.

KENNEDY JR.: That's my position. We promote the measles vaccine.

BENNET: I hope you will go out to America and promote this.

KENNEDY JR.: What we said--

BENNET: The idea that you have nothing to do with this--

KENNEDY JR.: The measles vaccine prevents measles--

BENNET: --is dead-wrong.

KENNEDY JR.: --and 97 percent of the people who take it. I've always said that. That's what the science says.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: My source tonight was part of that tense exchange with the HHS Secretary. Democratic senator, Michael Bennet of Colorado, is here.

Senator, what did you make of what the Secretary said to you there?

BENNET: Thank you for having me.

I was shocked. I mean, the guy has spent his entire life, peddling conspiracy theories, saying that vaccines are going to damage children. And today, at this hearing, he said that he had had an epiphany, I guess, and that measles vaccines and flu vaccines, by the way, were also safe.

And it's a little shocking, given the fact that this year we've seen more children die from flu than in any year in modern American history, we've seen an incredible increase in measles, the biggest increase we've seen for 30 years. And I think he's responsible for a lot of that.

[21:50:00]

COLLINS: Well, I mean, people listening to that might have watched a lot of the angry, and tense exchanges that often happen. But he has not really gone that far in the measles vaccine, but from what I've looked at his past comments when he's testified, he actually went further--

BENNET: He never has, and I wonder whether he thinks that it's finally an untenable position, now that it's been exposed more broadly than just on the -- on the--

COLLINS: So, you did see that as a shift--

BENNET: --platforms that he goes to.

COLLINS: --a shift for him?

BENNET: Definitely saw it as a shift. Yes, he's denied it all the way through.

And well the question I asked him was, Do you agree with the CDC, the Centers for Disease Control Head, who says that vaccines are effective and kids should be vaccinated. And he said, Yes.

Now the job -- I mean, I think the guy should resign, Kennedy, and I've said that for a long time, because the misinformation that he has sent out to America has meant that moms and dads have been really scared about whether to get their kids vaccinated, whether their kids are going to be safe in school. These are things we took for granted, before he showed up. And at least for 30 years, we've taken it for granted. And now, he's raised a huge question about it, so.

COLLINS: I mean, even some Republicans were saying the guidance was confusing. John Barrasso, obviously a doctor.

BENNET: Right.

COLLINS: When he testified today that the next CDC director who has been picked, the nominee is, Dr. Erica Schwartz is the new selection from the President. He said that she will be able to make decisions independently.

Do you believe that that is true?

BENNET: I don't see any reason to believe that will be true. But this is a good role for Congress to play, to provide oversight, to make sure that they're doing what they need to do.

His position on these vaccines was completely unsustainable. But it's a shame that it has taken this long for us to force him to make the right kind of statements in front of the public. But maybe this is progress.

COLLINS: Will you support her nomination?

BENNET: I haven't decided yet.

COLLINS: What do you -- do you need to hear from her? Or what do you weigh in terms of--

BENNET: Yes, I'll need to hear from her. I'll sit down with her and hear how she thinks about this.

I mean, one of the things you need to ask these people is, Are you willing to tell the President the truth? Are you willing to tell Secretary Kennedy the truth? What would you resign over, you know? Or do you have to subscribe to their fake science to be a successful nominee or appointee? Those are the kind of conversations we have to have.

COLLINS: And we saw how critical the CDC director role is, during the pandemic. In terms of COVID-19, sources tell us that HHS blocked publication of a study that showed COVID vaccines actually cut ER visits in half, visits and hospitalizations roughly half last year. We're told that the current head of the CDC who's running it blocked it from being published in a journal. We heard from HHS that there was concerns in the article's approach.

But what do you make of--

(CROSSTALK)

BENNET: Well, I mean, it sounds to me like they're hiding stuff that the public should have. That's great reporting, and we should follow up on what you guys have figured out, because the public needs to know this. I mean, even now, there's so much residual misinformation about COVID, and we haven't recovered fully, in some ways, as a society from COVID, and I think it will only help us do that to be able to understand what the facts actually are.

COLLINS: One thing that has gotten praise, from some people who might typically criticize this administration, is TrumpRx.

There was an exchange that happened today with Secretary Kennedy, about how much drugs are actually costing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WARREN: Secretary Kennedy, do you know how much it costs for a 30-day supply of that drug at Costco?

KENNEDY JR.: But I would say this, Senator.

WARREN: Do you know what it costs--

KENNEDY JR.: President Trump has a different way of calculating.

WARREN: Do you know what the drug costs at Costco?

KENNEDY JR.: I do not.

WARREN: The drug is $16 at Costco. TrumpRx charges $200 for Protonix, and Costco charges $16.

SEN. RON WYDEN (D-OR): Will you commit to releasing your written agreements with the pharmaceutical companies tomorrow?

KENNEDY JR.: No, I will not, and I can explain why. Those agreements contain proprietary information and trade secrets.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: You're one of the Senate Democrats who wants that information public as well.

BENNET: We definitely want it public.

But Kaitlan, let me also say, this is such a small debate right now. America needs a new health care system. The health care system that we have costs twice as much as any other industrialized country in the world. It doesn't cover everybody. It doesn't give our kids, mental health care. It doesn't -- it doesn't -- it doesn't allow us to afford drugs the way they can, in the other countries we're competing with around the world, and we're dying six years younger than any -- than our competitors. That is insane.

I believe the American people want us to have a universal health care system. I believe they -- they believe health care is a moral right that we should have. And I'm talking about Democrats and Republicans. I think the debate has shifted way beyond where it was during the Affordable Care Act.

COLLINS: Yes.

[21:55:00]

BENNET: And I think that's what we should be fighting for, as a nation, instead of kind of nibbling around the edges, which is what we've been doing here for a long, long time.

COLLINS: Senator Michael Bennet, thank you for joining us tonight.

BENNET: Thanks, Kaitlan. Thanks for having me.

COLLINS: Appreciate you taking the time to do so.

Up next. Speaking of the Senate. Ted Cruz is now calling the White House's next business venture a terrible idea. Why the administration is on the verge of owning a stake in Spirit Airlines?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: The Trump administration appears close to bailing out Spirit Airlines. That's because a source close to the negotiations tells us that for $500 million, the federal government would now take a stake in the struggling discount carrier.

This comes, after just yesterday, the Transportation Secretary, Sean Duffy, raised questions about whether or not federal aid would actually be enough to save the company.

[22:00:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEAN DUFFY, TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY: The question will be: Can we do anything to save Spirit and make it viable? Or would we be putting good money into a company that inevitably is going to be liquidated?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Now, we're hearing from Republican senator, Ted Cruz, who responded on social media saying, This is an absolutely TERRIBLE idea.

Senator Tom Cotton said, Not the best use of taxpayer dollars.

We'll continue to monitor that response, see if it affect the White House.

Thanks so much for joining us here tonight on THE SOURCE.

"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.