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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
President Trump Hopeful Hantavirus Outbreak "Under Control"; President Trump Makes Impromptu Visit To Lincoln Memorial Reflecting Pool; Rubio Meets With Pope Leo After Weeks Of Tensions With Vatican. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired May 07, 2026 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: --that is the voicemail that Lauren left for me.
You can join me in about 16 minutes, or 15 minutes, to hear the full interview at 09:15 p.m. Join me only on CNN.com/AllThereIs. That's our grief community page. It's my live show about grief and loss and love. I hope you join me in 15 minutes. CNN.com/AllThereIs.
The news continues. "THE SOURCE" starts now.
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Tonight. The scramble to trace a deadly and rare outbreak, as the President addresses the Hantavirus for the first time.
I'm Brianna Keilar in for Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Tonight, health officials around the world are working to trace a deadly Hantavirus outbreak linked to an international cruise. The World Health Organization, monitoring confirmed cases and close contacts across at least eight different nations.
Here in the United States, officials in California, Arizona, Texas, Georgia and Virginia say, they're monitoring several people, including at least three cruise passengers that returned home.
Moments ago, President Trump had this to say to Americans who are concerned about the virus.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Can I ask you about the Hantavirus? Have you been briefed on the virus?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Yes, I have been.
REPORTER: Can you tell us what you've learned in these briefings? Should Americans--
TRUMP: Well I think you're going to be told everything, and you already have. It's very much, we hope, under control. It was the ship, and I think we're going to make a full report about it tomorrow. We have a lot of people -- a lot of great people are studying it. It should be fine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: Earlier today, I spoke with the Commissioner of Virginia's Department of Health about one of those passengers currently being monitored.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. CAMERON WEBB, COMMISSIONER, VIRGINIA DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH: That individual this time is not showing any symptoms, and we're continuing to stay in pretty constant contact with them.
KEILAR: So they are isolating in their home?
WEBB: They're not -- the recommendations that we got from CDC at this time, while they're not having any symptoms, isn't to necessarily isolate in their home. But the nature of the communication with our health district, is really making sure that we're keeping track of any symptoms that they can have.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: He said that former passenger is checking their temperature twice a day now, and is in daily contact with state health officials.
Of the five confirmed cases of Hantavirus, a specific strain called the Andes strain that can spread person to person. Three people have died. And as of tonight, all three deaths are linked to that ship, the m/v Hondius. The Hondius left Argentina on April 1st, and since then, dozens of passengers have either disembarked or they've been evacuated from the ship at ports in the Atlantic. But a total of 146 people are still on board the vessel.
And one of those people is a passenger who happens to be a doctor, and talked to CNN tonight from the ship. Dr. Stephen Kornfeld told CNN's Erin Burnett what he saw as he first stepped in to treat the first confirmed cases on board when the ship's doctor became ill.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. STEPHEN KORNFELD, CARED FOR SICK PASSENGERS ABOARD SHIP: There are three patients that seem to be getting ill around the same time.
One of them, just very non-specific symptoms, a lot of confusion and a lot of weakness, and she ultimately passed away relatively quickly.
The two other gentlemen, quite a bit younger, including the doc, just had a lot of standard viral symptoms, a lot of fever, fatigue, flushing, some GI issues, some shortness of breath. At the time, neither one of them looked critically ill. But the fear with Hantavirus is you can go from seriously ill to critically ill very, very quickly.
Most people will get off the boat relatively rapidly. We now have two -- during the evacuation, we were able to get two WHO epidemiologists and two Danish ID doctors. So now, there's a great team on board who is really going through every aspect of this infection, how it spread, and what it means for the passengers remaining, both for their health, and for their possible transmission down the road. So, I'm feeling pretty good that most people will get off the boat relatively soon, and hopefully I will get off soon also.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: Now the boat is expected to dock in the Spanish Canary Islands that is off the coast of Morocco, on Sunday. And the plan, right now, is for passengers to be flown back to their home countries.
[21:05:00]
So, you're probably thinking, people disembarking a cruise ship and dispersing to 23 countries before an outbreak is fully understood. That sounds a lot like how a pandemic starts.
But a top official at the World Health Organization is downplaying that risk, and saying it's nothing like the COVID-19 pandemic.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. MARIA VAN KERKHOVE, DIRECTOR OF EPIDEMIC & PANDEMIC THREAT MANAGEMENT, WHO: This is not SARS-CoV-2. This is not the start of a COVID pandemic. This is an outbreak that we see on a ship. There's a confined area. We have five confirmed cases so far.
This is not the same situation we were in six years ago. It doesn't spread the same way like coronaviruses do. It's very different. It's that close, intimate contact that we've seen. And most hantaviruses don't transmit between people at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: It's important to note, the United States is no longer a member of the World Health Organization. President Trump withdrew from the group in one of his first acts of his second term.
I want to bring in former Chief Medical Officer for the CDC, Dr. Deb Houry.
Dr. Houry, thanks for being with us.
As I said, a 146 people still on the cruise ship, 17 Americans, this plan to dock Sunday and then fly everybody home. Is the U.S. prepared to handle that, or other countries?
DR. DEBRA HOURY, FORMER CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER, CDC: I would say today, overall, the CDC is prepared for Hantavirus.
I think what concerns me is, if it was a bigger threat today, we would not be prepared. Just this week, the Department of State changed the funding requirements for global health, and it's really taking CDC out of the picture to where countries can choose not to work with CDC. And as you pointed out, when we're not partnering with the World Health Organization, and CDC is not going to have the boots on the ground in countries, should this have happened in a place where we didn't have eyes? This could be much worse. But right now, I would say CDC has been doing the lab testing, and they quickly notified state health departments of the people who had returned from the cruise.
KEILAR: The Commissioner of Virginia's Health Department told me, this one individual that they're monitoring, who has returned to Virginia, is not symptomatic and is not being asked to isolate. He said, Those are not the CDC guidelines right now.
Should they be?
HOURY: You know, that's hard to say. I think we have to use humility when it comes to learning about these viruses. There has been some research around the Andes virus, a few years ago on a case about 30 different individuals that had it. And what they saw was you had to be symptomatic, with a fever, cough, things like that, to be transmitting the virus.
But with the number of cases that have happened, I think we do need to be cautious and really track these cases closely. And if any information changes rapidly, share that with the public.
KEILAR: I know the WHO is saying this is not like COVID. But COVID did teach us to ask some questions about transmission. Can an asymptomatic person transmit this virus? Is it airborne? Is the virus perhaps aerosolized by coughing? Should we be asking those questions, do you think, Doctor, about this strain of the Hantavirus?
HOURY: I think we should always be asking those questions, and also realizing that as you get more information, what you find can change.
Right now, we do know that the Andes virus is the one type of Hantavirus that can be transmitted person to person. We know, though, in the cases that -- we saw from Argentina, a few years ago, that the cases that did happen with transmission were not asymptomatic. So, this point, what we know today is that asymptomatic people do not spread that.
That being said, we think we learned a lot during COVID, and from other infectious diseases, that we need to always be double checking, monitoring patients, looking at the data, and seeing if any of this has changed or evolved because, this is a different Andes virus today. We need to do the genomic testing and make sure we understood how it's transmitted and how it gets connected.
I also would say, usually we would see CDC more up front with the WHO. But with the withdrawal from the World Health Organization, CDC has not been as prominent as I would like to see as an American citizen.
KEILAR: Yes, it's a big concern.
I do want to play what the passengers heard, from the Captain on board this ship, after the first death on board. Here it is. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAN DOBROGOWSKI, M/V HONDIUS CAPTAIN: One of our passengers sadly passed away last night. Tragic as it is, it was due to natural causes, we believe. And also whatever health issues he was struggling with -- I'm told by the doctor were not infectious. So the ship is safe when it comes to this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:10:00]
KEILAR: Of course, hindsight is 20/20, and a lot of times Hantavirus is not initially recognized for what it is.
But if what the Captain said there was the belief that passengers were operating under, how bad could this get when we're talking about a up to six-, even eight-week incubation period in some cases?
HOURY: Yes, I think it's concerning when with Hantavirus, there is that long incubation period. And so, for many of the people, who may have been exposed, they're going to worry during this time, and with them all on the ship right now, I can only imagine being separated from families, worrying if you've been exposed to a deadly disease that there is no treatment for, hoping that you can get to a hospital.
My thoughts are with everybody on this ship impacted, and I hope that they are able to find a way to get them off soon. I know that that's what I'm hearing from your reports as well.
But cruise ships are also a different environment. The close quarters, in some areas, poor ventilation. So, I also think, we need to think about that setting versus what we would see, in a day-to-day usual setting as well when we're talking about transmission.
KEILAR: Before the show, I spoke with a woman named Debbie Zipperian (ph), who was actually infected with Hantavirus, but it was a different strain, back in 2011. And I want to listen to part of what she said. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DEBBIE ZIPPERIAN (ph), HANTAVIRUS SURVIVOR: So neck pain and the back pain and the fatigue felt like you had the flu.
KEILAR: Yes.
ZIPPERIAN (ph): You get -- and you get very confused. You don't know what's going on anymore. My fourth time into the hospital, I had a fever of 104 and that's when they, like the hospital, couldn't get me ventilated. They said, I was like a rat -- a bobcat. I was strapped down, tearing everything out. The Life Flight crews got me ventilated. I made it to Great Falls. They saved my life.
KEILAR: And--
ZIPPERIAN (ph): I was in a coma.
KEILAR: Debbie, I know that you were in an induced coma, and you were so disoriented.
ZIPPERIAN (ph): Yes.
KEILAR: It's important that we know, you did have a different strain from this Andes strain, but some of the symptoms that you describe and that you experienced were similar to what one passenger, a doctor who cared for patients on the ship describe, these flu-like symptoms, the disorientation.
ZIPPERIAN (ph): Exactly. Yes.
KEILAR: And so you recognize that when you hear that description?
ZIPPERIAN (ph): Yes, absolutely. The disorientation. What follows then, for me, in my own experience, was migraines, aggression -- I got aggressive with my emotions, light, sound, things were very upsetting to me, and I didn't know what was wrong with me. I, at that point in time, a week and a half in to two weeks, I didn't know what was wrong. I, in my mind, had no idea I was sick, even I just--
KEILAR: Yes.
ZIPPERIAN (ph): --you just don't.
I say to the people on the ship, be strong and let people know if you feel any different than you normally feel. Because right now, you have a really good chance on that ship, because it's contained and they know what's going on. Most people, they don't know what's going on, and it's too late.
KEILAR: Yes.
ZIPPERIAN (ph): It was almost too late for me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KEILAR: And Dr. Houry, she actually clarified, it was not an induced coma. She was very much sedated, but she was in a coma for some time. It has been a long struggle for her, even still coming back from this.
Two things that struck me from what she said. One, the symptoms are incredibly scary, and this is a different strain that she's talking about, but the symptoms sound similar to what a doctor passenger on this ship is describing. But the one thing she said that kind of gave some hope was, if these passengers do have symptoms, then they know what it is.
And I wonder what you think, hearing what she's describing there, because it's pretty scary if you're someone on that ship, listening to someone like her.
HOURY: Yes, and I'm so thankful that she has recovered, even though, certainly, as she mentioned, it was a -- has been a long recovery. And what I would say is Hantavirus is usually not on the top of a differential diagnosis for most doctors, it's a very rare disease. And so, she's right. Knowing you're on this ship, and you've had this exposure, if you get sick, they're going to think immediately of it, and do as much as they can when it comes to the fluids, ventilation, to treat these patients once they are in a medical facility, so there won't be a delay to a diagnosis, like there can be in other cases, because this is really high on the list.
KEILAR: Yes, let's hope that that is an advantage here.
[21:15:00]
Dr. Debra Houry, great to have you on. Thank you so much for being with us.
HOURY: Thank you.
KEILAR: Up next. There is a ceasefire in effect in the war with Iran. But the U.S. and Iran just exchanged some pretty major fire. So, what happened? And how is President Trump explaining it?
And then later. At the Vatican, a literal olive branch, or at least a little part of one, in a bit of a gift from Pope Leo to the Trump administration, after weeks of extraordinary criticism from the President. What did he get in return?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:20:00]
KEILAR: Breaking news. We're learning some new details, after U.S. and Iranian forces exchanged fire today in the middle of that ceasefire that President Trump says is still in place, despite these attacks, as the U.S. awaits Iran's response on that single page peace memo that the President is saying was actually more than a one-page offer. But both sides claiming they were responding to attacks launched by the other.
According to U.S. CENTCOM, three American naval ships came under attack, as they sailed through the Strait of Hormuz.
The President offering his assessment, just moments ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: They trifled with us today. We blew them away. They trifled. I call that a trifle. I'll let you know when there's no cease -- you won't have to know. If there's no ceasefire, you're not going to have to know. You're just going to have to look at one big glow coming out of Iran, and they better sign their agreement fast.
REPORTER: Mr. President, has Iran officially responded to the one-page offer?
TRUMP: Well, it's more than a one-page offer. It's an offer that basically said they will not have nuclear weapons. They're going to hand us the nuclear dust, and many other things that we want.
REPORTER: Mr. President--
TRUMP: Yes, they've agreed. But when they agree, it doesn't mean much, because the next day they forget -- they forgot they agreed. And, you know, we're dealing with different sets of leaders.
REPORTER: How close would you say that you are to a deal right now with Iran?
TRUMP: Could happen any day, could -- and it might not happen, but it could happen any day. I believe they want the deal more than I do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: The mission to send U.S. destroyers through the Strait comes on the same day that Iran moved to cement its control of the critical waterway. Tehran laying out rules it wants ships to follow in exchange for passage through the Strait.
And regarding those U.S. strikes, President Trump told ABC News that they were, just in his words, a love tap.
My sources tonight are:
CNN Global Affairs Analyst, Karim Sadjadpour.
As well as the Founder and Executive Director of the National Security Institute, Jamil Jaffer.
All right, ceasefire or no ceasefire, Karim, as you see it. Because the U.S. does appear to have targeted positions on land, in addition to the boats and drones that were incoming. So, it wasn't just that immediate threat to these destroyers. How are you seeing the ceasefire right now?
KARIM SADJADPOUR, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST, SENIOR FELLOW, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT FOR INTERNATIONAL PEACE, IRAN EXPERT: So, Brianna, this is a kinetic war, it's an energy war, and it's also a disinformation war. Every day there's streams of disinformation.
There was two pieces of breaking news today. One was that there was going to be imminent negotiations. And then there was initially breaking news that we've returned to a hot conflict. The question is whether the Iranians will interpret our provocation or retaliation as a violation of the ceasefire, and how do they react?
What's clear is that President Trump doesn't want to continue to consume his presidency with this war. Iran's leaders are also under enormous economic duress. But as the President alluded to, the level of mistrust is so enormous, right now, that I don't see light at the end of the tunnel.
KEILAR: Which is very interesting.
The President, Jamil, said on Truth Social, Missiles were shot at our Destroyers, and were easily knocked down. Likewise, drones came, and were incinerated while in the air. They dropped ever so beautifully down to the Ocean, very much like a butterfly dropping to its grave.
OK, let's not get distracted by the poetic description there, but focusing there on the missiles and the drones, because this is the second time in a week that Iran has done this, right, when it comes to a U.S. ship. So, what does it mean for diplomatic efforts when their navy is, even as the President says, It's decapitated, Iran is quite capable of doing this.
JAMIL JAFFER, FOUNDER & EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NATIONAL SECURITY INSTITUTE, FORMER SENIOR COUNSEL, HOUSE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE, FORMER ASSOCIATE COUNSEL TO PRES. GEORGE W. BUSH: Right, what's so crazy here is that Iran entered into a ceasefire with the United States with the premise being, You stop bombing us. We'll open the Strait.
Guess what? They never opened the Strait. They've never complied, not for a single day with this ceasefire. Now we've kept it in place, largely. We've only shot back when they've shot at us. But they've been shooting at us a lot, and we've now imposed a blockade upon them, so they're there -- that we're trading these blockades.
But the real problem here is that they simply haven't done their part, not for a single day. And for us to continue to negotiate with them and talk to them about 20 years for no enrichment. I mean, remember, the Obama deal that the President so roundly and rightly criticized was a 15-year no-enrichment deal, keep 3.67 percent. Same deal the President is talking about 20 years, 12 years. None of these are good deals.
We bombed them for a reason. We should stick to it. We should get them to a real deal, which is no enrichment at all.
KEILAR: How do you do that?
JAFFER: Maybe you have to go back to bombing. Maybe you have to force the Straits of Hormuz to reopen. Right now, the Straits are closed because Iran lets them be closed. If we sent U.S. warships through, which we're starting to do, and we escorted ships through? Now you have to shoot at us. If you shoot at us, we've got to take you out completely. Not just incinerate your drones, and your missiles, but hit you on land and take out your positions.
KEILAR: A lot of maritime ships are not going to go for that. They've been very clear, they're going to stay in the Gulf, where they feel a lot more safe.
[21:25:00]
I wonder how you see that, and how you're reading this move by the U.S., on this critical day, where Iran was kind of changing the rules around the Strait, to send those American destroyers around the Strait.
SADJADPOUR: So, when this war began, the Strait of Hormuz was not an agenda item for the President. We wanted to destroy their nuclear program entirely, destroy their missiles and drones, destroy their regional proxies and maybe even implode the regime.
And two and a half months into this war, you know, Iran is obviously, as we all know, it's wielding enormous leverage with the Strait of Hormuz. It's impacting the world in a way that their nuclear program wasn't necessarily impacting the world.
And from the outset, I've said that Iran has tried to defeat America, not on the battlefield, but in the living room. They want oil prices to spike, and they want popular opinion to eventually restrain President Trump's ambitions.
So, I think, what Jamil said would be an ideal outcome, if you could get zero enrichment and destroy all of their missiles. But that takes resolve which -- you know, dictatorships have that resolve, because they don't care about their public opinion. But for democracies, that's much more difficult.
KEILAR: Because the President says Iran wants this more than him. But he doesn't actually want to stick around for too much longer, doing this.
JAFFER: And that's the problem. The Iranians know it, and they're using it against him. He's got to show resolve. He showed some resolve on Monday. He said he was going to reopen the Strait by force, and he's going to send U.S. ships through and escort ships through, even the ones that -- maybe the ones that wouldn't come at their -- their ones that would. And the problem is he didn't stick to it.
It took a day for him to go back on that, and say how we're going to close it. Now we're blaming the Saudis, we're blaming everybody else. But the truth is, we didn't stick to it. And now the Iranians see weakness, they smell blood in the water, and they're chasing it down. The President has got to be who he wants to be, which is tough and resolute and push it down.
KEILAR: Jamil. And Karim. Thank you so much. Very important day, and we appreciate you being with us.
JAFFER: Thank you.
SADJADPOUR: Thank you.
KEILAR: So, you know some of the trickle down impacts of this war, if you have gone to the grocery store, if you've tried to plan a summer vacation, you've gone to fill up your gas tank.
The President said yesterday that the war would be worth it, even if oil were to hit $200 a barrel.
And today, his top economic adviser said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEVIN HASSETT, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL: In fact, I had the head of one of the big five banks in my office yesterday, going through the credit card data. And, just as Secretary Bessent said, credit card spending is through the roof. They're spending more on gasoline, but they're spending more on everything else, too.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: Well perhaps they're spending more because things do cost more. In 47 states, you're paying at least $4 a gallon for gas. Just yesterday, the national average topped $4.50.
The Transportation Secretary says that shouldn't stop you from hitting the road.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEAN DUFFY, TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY: I was looking at it, I think it was like $92 -- $93 for Brent crude. So we're in a good place.
First of all, we want to encourage all Americans to take a road trip, whether you're going to go two hours or two days, to see your country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: My congressional source recently became the only Independent in the House, though he does conference with Republicans. Congressman Kevin Kiley of California with us now.
Congressman, we'll talk oil prices here in a moment. I do first want to get your take on whether a ceasefire is still in effect after what we saw today. Does it seem like it to you?
REP. KEVIN KILEY (I-CA): Well, it seems like it's mostly held, although obviously today's activity is an exception to that, but it certainly isn't anything like we had at the outset of this.
But regardless, I think that we are well past the time, where Congress needs to be more centrally involved in defining the scope and objectives of this conflict going forward, because (inaudible) achieve our goals here as fully as we would desire, you know, in order for those accomplishments to be durable.
For example, if we come up with an acceptable arrangement to make sure that Iran doesn't reach nuclear capability. For that to be durable, we actually need to have buy-in from Congress. We need to make sure that whatever is agreed to isn't just going to be changed by the next administration. And we need to have buy-in from our international partners and allies as well.
And so, I think we're at a stage right now, where trying to get Congress and our international allies, especially the Gulf states, more centrally involved, is going to be very important for the resolution.
KEILAR: On oil prices. You heard Secretary Duffy there, saying, we're in a good place when it comes to oil and gas prices.
What are you hearing from your constituents about how they're experiencing it? KILEY: Well, they're definitely not in a good place. I mean, in California, we're paying something like $6.17 a gallon right now. And I should note that in California, we were paying more, before the conflict in Iran, than the rest of the country is paying now. So, unfortunately, my constituents have had to get used to very high gas prices. But across the entire country, people are feeling enormous pain right now, which is one of several reasons why we need to get a quick and expeditious end to this conflict.
[21:30:00]
And frankly, in California (ph) and a few other states, there are a lot of things that we can do, irrespective of these exogenous events, to bring down gas prices as well. I've called for suspending the gas tax, capping gas taxes, changing the regulations that are causing our state to have to import gasoline from around the world, including the Bahamas. So, certainly all -- any cause of an increase in gas prices is a very bad thing for our country. But we should solve the ones that we can, and most immediately.
KEILAR: At the beginning of this war, about two months ago, you said that people were concerned about it dragging on.
I want to play what you said. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KILEY: Of course, people do have questions about how long this is going to last, what sort of commitment it might entail. And so, I'm monitoring the situation very closely.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: So, we're nine weeks into a war that the President said would be over in four to six weeks. And you said, people have questions. I wonder if some of the semantics that we're hearing from administration officials about Operation Epic Fury versus Project Freedom, whether there's still a ceasefire when there's significant attacks playing out. Does that provide the clarity and the answers to Americans that they want?
KILEY: I don't think we have gotten enough clarity, no, and I think that's true of Congress (inaudible) all that, we need more clarity as well, and need to have a more substantive role, going forward, which we can have through oversight hearings, and through the fact that Congress has to -- controls appropriations and will provide funding.
And so, as we consider this appropriations request, we need to really dig into it and look at what are these funds going to be used for? What is the strategy that those funds are going to be supporting? Because I absolutely standby the--
(CROSSTALK)
KEILAR: You said oversight -- you said oversight hearings. Are there any indications to you that Republicans want to have oversight hearings here?
KILEY: I think there are certainly some. I think there are folks on all sides who have a lot of questions, and I think everyone agrees that eliminating the Iran nuclear threat is a matter of paramount importance, and I think it's--
KEILAR: Certainly. I mean I--
KILEY: --it's important to emphasize what that really means.
KEILAR: I just want to ask you, Congressman, because there are many Democrats and Republicans who have that concern.
KILEY: Yes.
KEILAR: But when you're talking about oversight hearings, I don't know of a Democrat or a Republican who thinks that Republicans currently in control of the House want to have robust oversight hearings about this war. We're not hearing that. If that's your expectation of how that would happen, wouldn't the only way that would happen be if Democrats were in charge of the House?
KILEY: Well, I think there are certainly people on both sides who do support a greater congressional role here. I think--
KEILAR: But I'm talking about people who can actually make it--
KILEY: --I think you're right. That just hasn't happened--
(CROSSTALK)
KEILAR: I'm talking about people who can actually make it happen, not whether people support it. Whether -- I'm talking about whether people can actually get it going and make it happen.
KILEY: Yes, well, I mean, in any case, we're not going to have, in all likelihood, a change in the composition of the House for the next six or so months. So, what I want, is to see action right now.
I mean, we don't want this thing to be still dragging on six months from now, and have to rely on a change in who controls the House, or some other political event, to bring it to an end. I think we need to be using the tools we have at our disposal, right now, to work in a bipartisan way, to see that our objectives are as achieved here quickly as possible, and in a way that will be durable, going forward.
KEILAR: Yes, certainly that oversight role is a very important one, traditionally of Congress.
Congressman Kevin Kiley, we really appreciate you being with us. Thank you.
KILEY: You bet. Thanks for having me.
KEILAR: Up next. President Trump made a surprise visit to one of his renovation projects. My political panel is here to talk about it. [21:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEILAR: Moments before we came on the air tonight, President Trump made an impromptu visit to the Lincoln Memorial Reflecting Pool. You can see Trump's motorcade there, actually driving on the bottom of the emptied pool, which has become the President's latest renovation project.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: So, we're putting a beautiful surface on, it's called the coloring is, it's like a swimming pool, but industrial strength, much stronger. And I think you're going to see something that's amazing.
REPORTER: Mr. President, you are here against the backdrop of the war in Iran.
TRUMP: Yes.
REPORTER: Why focus on all these projects right now?
TRUMP: You know why? Because I want to keep our country beautiful and safe, beautiful also.
This place was a disgusting place. It was Washington Monument, the Lincoln Memorial, and we had a terrible dis-- I don't know, you probably don't see dirt, but I do. And you walk down this, this pond, if you would have walked down, they'll tell you, better than anybody, they had to take a 11 or 12 truckloads of garbage out of that lake, out of that water, and it sat there for years like that. And that's not what our country is about.
Our country is about beauty, cleanliness, safety, great people, not a filthy capital.
That's such a stupid question.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: My political sources are here.
Neera Tanden, a former domestic policy adviser to President Biden.
And Scott Jennings, former Special Assistant to President George W. Bush.
[21:40:00]
I wonder how impromptu that was that Doug Burgum was wearing a tux there. It seemed like maybe he didn't get the heads-up there, Scott, that they were going to be doing this. I'm not for sure, but just something about his dress code telling me that.
I just wonder, do you think it is a stupid question to ask, President Trump, why he's focusing on this kind of thing during a war? Is that a stupid question?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO MITCH MCCONNELL, FORMER SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO PRES. GEORGE W. BUSH, HOST, "THE SCOTT JENNINGS RADIO SHOW" ON SRN: Yes. I mean, look, the President does all kinds of things at the same time. We have foreign policy going on. We have domestic policy going on. He's got -- I mean, the President is doing multiple layers of things.
I worked for a president who was doing a 100 things at the same time. Neera worked for a president who struggled to do much of anything at the same time. But most presidents are able to do multiple things.
And this project, by the way, totally necessary. The President has cleaned up Washington. Many sites were in disrepair. We're having America 250. We'll get a new Reflecting Pool. If you go around town, you see all these improvements going on, not to mention, they cleaned up the crime, thanks to the federal intervention. I think the President's right to clean up Washington. Everybody benefits from it.
KEILAR: How do you think it looks, Neera?
NEERA TANDEN, PRESIDENT & CEO, CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS, FORMER DOMESTIC POLICY ADVISER TO PRES. BIDEN: I mean, everything Scott said was just sort of made-up. It's not like D.C. was -- looks so much better than it looked a year ago or two years ago. It's not the case that crime has gone dramatically down. It's on the same trendline as it was.
And I think the truth is, it is, I think, frankly, a stupid point to say, you can't -- people should be concerned about a Reflecting Pool, when we're bombing other countries, when gas prices have gone up. And I think people are sensitive, and the President is sensitive to it, because he knows that actually looks somewhat politically ridiculous and completely tone-deaf, to drive around the Reflecting Pool, when Americans are struggling to pay for the gas that has gone up because, of his war that he does not seem to know how to finish.
KEILAR: I generally find the stupid questions are often the ones we do not ask. I will find it's always I wish I'd asked one that I didn't.
But Scott, I want to ask you about something else, which is this appeals court today appearing poised to reject Secretary of Defense Hegseth's bid to punish Senator Mark Kelly over the illegal orders video.
This is what Kelly said outside of court today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MARK KELLY (D-AZ): This is not about me. They're trying to send a message to other retired veterans and, really, to all of us: If you say something that the President or this administration does not like, they're going to come after you.
(END VIDEO CLIP) KEILAR: If the court does strike this down, Scott, I wonder what you think that says about DOJ, as it has gone after some of the folks that the President wants them to go after. Does it -- does it challenge their legitimacy?
JENNINGS: Look, I think what they did, what Mark Kelly and those other people that made that video did, was extremely irresponsible and extremely dishonest. At the same time, I also respect the legal process. I mean, anytime you go into the legal process, you have to go through judges and grand juries and all that, and I respect that as well.
So, I strongly disagree with what they did. I can't believe how irresponsible that was. But at the same time, I really have no -- nothing to say other than legal process is legal process, and you got to respect it.
KEILAR: So, I do want to play a moment, from inside a court today, as one of the judges, this was a three-judge panel, was pressing DOJ on their case against Kelly. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE FLORENCE PAN, UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA CIRCUIT: These are people who served their country -- many of them put their lives on the line. And you're saying that they have to give up their retired status in order to say something that is a textbook example -- taught at West Point and the Naval Academy -- that you can disobey illegal orders.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: It's also a point that Hegseth himself has made.
What did you think about that moment and sort of the position of the administration on this?
TANDEN: I mean, I think what's so kind of upside-down about this is the President came into office, and a lot of conservatives championed him as a free speech activist, that there was too much criticism of free speech rights.
And just let's be clear, what's happening here. The President is using the Department of Justice to go after, to really try to criminalize, the speech of a Senator who was stating the law. The law is that you can disobey illegal orders, which is what the judge was basically saying. This is just -- this is just speaking a fact. And the Department of Justice is using its -- using our taxpayer dollars to prosecute this case.
KEILAR: Scott--
TANDEN: I think it is deeply disturbing that this is happening.
KEILAR: Scott, conservatives have often felt that their free speech is attacked. So, I mean, with that in mind, I mean, is that something that bothers you, as you look at this issue--
JENNINGS: Well--
KEILAR: --even if you find what they said despicable?
[21:45:00]
JENNINGS: Well, look, when I look at this issue, I see hyper-partisan politicians who were implying, or more, that the President of the United States had issued illegal orders, and that they were -- I -- when I saw it, I thought they were sort of nudging, or more than nudging military members to say, Look, if you follow this President's orders, we might come after you later. That's why I thought it was highly irresponsible.
I was always a little dubious about whether it would be illegal. Some people in the Justice Department thought that it would be. Obviously, they have to go before judges and juries on that, and that's not my realm. And, again, you have to respect that process.
But I thought the whole discourse was ridiculous. That the President was not giving illegal orders. No one's ever -- you know, he's never been found to have been given any illegal orders. But that's, of course, the political discourse they wanted to engage in, and that's what I found irresponsible.
KEILAR: Neera. And Scott. Thank you so much for the conversation. I appreciate it.
And up next. Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, said his visit to the Vatican was not an attempt to reset its strained relationship with the White House. Well, the President just revealed the message that he told Rubio to give the Pope. We have that, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:50:00]
KEILAR: New details tonight from that meeting between Secretary of State Marco Rubio, and Pope Leo today, coming amid historically high tensions between the White House and the Vatican.
Tonight, the President shared his message for the Pope.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Have you spoken to Secretary Rubio since his meeting with Pope Leo?
TRUMP: No--
REPORTER: And did you ask him to pass on a message to him?
TRUMP: I spoke to him. I just said, tell him -- tell the Pope, very nicely, very respectfully, that Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon. So when he comes to their defense. Also, tell the Pope that Iran killed 42,000 innocent protesters who didn't have guns, who didn't have weapons, tell that to the Pope.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: Despite the President's recent rhetoric, the Pope met with Rubio for over 45 minutes today, a significant diplomatic gesture, since he usually meets with heads of state.
The Vatican says there was, quote, "An exchange of views on the regional and international situation, with particular attention to countries marked by war, political tensions, and difficult humanitarian situations, as well as on the need to work tirelessly in favor of peace."
My source tonight is Christopher Hale. He is the Founder of "Letters from Leo," the popular newsletter on Pope Leo and American politics.
Christopher, welcome. Thanks for being with us.
CHRISTOPHER HALE, FOUNDER, "LETTERS FROM LEO": Thank you for having me.
KEILAR: And you have a bit of an inside scoop, from Vatican sources, on what was actually discussed today. Do tell.
HALE: The two most important topics I think that came up were Cuba, which we heard about, and also Iran.
I think the hope of the administration was that what happened with Iran, the Pope speaking out week after week after week, will not happen if a possible operation happens in Cuba. But those hopes are not going to be fulfilled. If the United States does any military operation in Cuba, you can expect that Pope Leo XIV, as vocal as he was on Iran, will be even more vocal. So, I think those hopes will be dashed, for sure.
KEILAR: So, maybe not going to comply with the request then?
HALE: No. I mean, it's funny, President Trump said he wanted a Pope that would never be critical of the United States. It's not going to happen. I mean, it's not going to happen even the Pope being from the United States. The popes throughout history have been critical of military interventions from this country, and will continue to happen going forward as well.
KEILAR: So, a readout from the State Department said, The meeting underscored the strong relationship between the United States and the Holy See and their shared commitment to promoting peace and human dignity.
That's quite a change in tone, right, from what we've seen from this administration through President Trump, when it comes to the Pope. What did you think, at least for this moment, of smoothing over?
HALE: The first statement that the State Department released, when Marco Rubio met with the Pope, last May, was about 200 words in length, about all the areas they agreed on. And obviously, that statement was maybe 50 words in total. So, there's not a lot that I think they agree on. They kept it vague, and that's to keep pleasant to read, it's to keep things nice.
But the Vatican statement is quite a bit longer. And they listed the military operations in the Middle East, they listed peace, they listed migration. So, I think the Vatican was more candid about what was -- what was talked about in that meeting.
But it makes sense for both sides to save a little face and to keep the relationship going.
KEILAR: I do want to listen to what the Secretary said, earlier this week, about the trip. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARCO RUBIO, SECRETARY OF STATE: The trip is really not tied to anything other than the fact that it would be normal for us to engage with them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: What do you think about that?
HALE: It's not true. I mean, that trip, it was definitely a peace- making mission. What happened over the past month hurt President Trump's standing among Catholics in this country. You saw a Washington Post poll come out today, that Catholics approval rating of President Trump's at 38 percent. He won with 55 percent just two years ago.
So, this definitely was a gesture meant to appease and to have a little bit of a better standing. And it was very purposeful that JD Vance didn't go. And that Marco Rubio did, he was the peacemaker.
KEILAR: Speaking of gestures. The gift, so important. And the pen, part of the gift, that the Pope gave to Rubio was made of olive wood. I mean, come on, that's like--
HALE: Sure.
KEILAR: --almost on the nose, right?
But Rubio gave him a crystal football?
HALE: Makes no sense now--
KEILAR: From the State Department. Look, what's happened -- and what is your view on this gift?
HALE: I think it didn't meet the moment.
These gifts are considered a very important part of diplomacy. When I worked for President Obama, we had six months of meetings, to figure out--
KEILAR: Wow. HALE: --what we were going to give Pope Francis then.
[21:55:00]
I think any kind of gift that acknowledged the Pope's religious identity as an Augustinian, acknowledged at least the sports he like, he's not a football fan, he's a baseball fan, would have been thoughtful. And I think, unfortunately, for Marco Rubio, the gifts kind of overshadow it.
It reminded me, in 1968, Lyndon B. Johnson gave Pope Paul VI, a bust of Lyndon B. Johnson.
KEILAR: No, that's way worse if that's what they're--
HALE: It was way worse.
KEILAR: That is so much worse. So, at least he didn't do that.
HALE: He did not do that.
KEILAR: Christopher Hale, thank you very much.
Up next. Fareed Zakaria takes a look at the power of the presidency and for how long, before Donald Trump, it had been growing and growing.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEILAR: From encouraging the prosecution of his political opponents, to launching a war unilaterally, President Trump has pushed the boundaries of presidential authority. But he's hardly the first president to do so.
[22:00:00]
In his latest documentary special, Fareed Zakaria exams how presidents, on both sides of the aisle, laid the groundwork for today's modern imperial presidency. And you can watch "The Imperial Presidency: A Fareed Zakaria Special" Sunday, at 08:00 p.m. Eastern, here on CNN.
And thank you so much for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
