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The Source with Kaitlan Collins

Sources: DOJ Investigating Trump Accuser E. Jean Carroll; NY Times: CIA Official Accused Of Stealing $40 Million In Gold Bars; UFC CEO: Trump "Probably" Wishes WH Fight Wasn't Happening. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired May 27, 2026 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[21:00:00]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: -- and that's a huge impact on Russia's ability to continue its offensive and invasion, and on morale too, bad as it already was. And so, this change is something which started out as being Ukraine's initial ambition and advantage, and the way they've produced it at mass scale has really changed the dynamic now.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Nick Paton Walsh, thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well, that's it for us. Thanks for watching. The news continues. "THE SOURCE" starts now. I'll see you tomorrow.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Tonight. CNN's exclusive new reporting. The Justice Department is now investigating the woman who successfully sued President Trump.

I'm Brianna Keilar, in for Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.

Tonight, we begin with breaking news, and it's a CNN exclusive. The Trump revenge and retribution tour has taken yet another relentless turn. This time, sources say, the Justice Department has launched a criminal investigation into E. Jean Carroll, the former magazine columnist who accused Donald Trump of sexual assault, dating back to the 1990s.

Carroll took Trump to civil court during his first term as president and won a $5 million judgment against him, after the jury concluded that he sexually abused her.

In a second trial, a jury awarded Carroll, $83 million, after finding that Trump defamed her when, in 2019 he repeatedly denied the assault, said she wasn't his type, and claimed that she made it up to boost sales of a book. The President continues to appeal that verdict.

Let's bring in Paula Reid to talk a little bit about this.

Paula, this is exclusive reporting. What are sources telling you about this?

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: So, sources tell our colleagues, Kara Scannell, Hannah Rabinowitz, and I, that the theory of this case is that she may have perjured herself during her two civil cases against President Trump.

Now, they're specifically looking at a 2022 deposition where Carroll said that she had not received any outside funding. But her lawyers subsequently informed the court that she had received outside funding from billionaire Reid Hoffman to help with legal fees and expenses.

Now, ahead of the trial, the judge said that he didn't see any problem with her credibility and actually blocked Trump lawyers from asking about this funding.

Now, as we understand, this is still in the early stages. It's unclear, though, if anything will actually come of this investigation. Because this has to be seen, of course, in the context of this larger effort to use the Justice Department to pursue President Trump's political adversaries, and that's been met with mixed results.

KEILAR: Let's play some of what President Trump has said about E. Jean Carroll over the years. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I don't even know who this woman is. I have no idea who she is, where she came from. This is another scam. It's a political witch-hunt.

This is all political stuff, including the women's stuff. The Bergdorf Goodman. I meet a woman outside of Bergdorf Goodman, I took her upstairs to a changing booth. It was all made-up. And you know who's financing it? Reid Hoffman, their number one political donor. Reid Hoffman. Big fat slob.

It's a made-up, fabricated story by somebody, I think, initially just looking to promote a book.

I should be suing her for defamation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: What does that context tell us about this?

REID: It reminds us how personal this is for him, and this is not something that he has forgotten about. He continues to litigate against a lot of these judgments. So, if you are at the Justice Department or within the administration, E. Jean Carroll is going to be someone on his shortlist of people that he has vowed. He's been very public. He wants to engage in a campaign of retribution, now that he is back in power.

Well, I was surprised in the course of this reporting to learn that this had been referred, that they were actively working on this. When you think of it in the larger context of what he promised he would do, it's actually not that surprising.

KEILAR: Yes, maybe not.

All right. CNN's Senior Legal Analyst, Elie Honig, is also here with us.

The theory, Elie, is based on a 2022 deposition statement by Carroll that she received no outside funding for her lawsuit, as Paula laid out there. But it was later revealed that Reid Hoffman, the billionaire, did pay some legal expenses.

Do you think that's worthy of a criminal investigation?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NY: Well, Brianna, perjury cases are notoriously tricky. DOJ has and does charge perjury cases. I'll give you some examples. Michael Flynn charged with perjury. Roger Stone charged with perjury. Paul Manafort charged with perjury.

Now, all that said, you cannot ignore the context here, which you just laid out with Paula, which is Donald Trump has shown throughout his time back in office, his second term, that his DOJ will go after anybody who has crossed him.

[21:05:00]

And he's made no secret of the fact that he wants vengeance against E. Jean Carroll. And that's more than just political atmospherics, Brianna. That's going to eventually give E. Jean Carroll, if, big if, but if there is a criminal charge here, she will make a vindictive prosecution defense. Same thing that Jim Comey was going to make, and surely will make with his new -- with his new indictment. Same thing that Letitia James made. Now the case was dismissed on other grounds. Same basis for the dismissal of the indictment against Kilmar Abrego Garcia last week.

So, the political background here can absolutely become legally relevant.

KEILAR: And Paula, of note is how involved, or not involved we should say, the acting Attorney General, Todd Blanche, formerly the President's personal attorney, is in this talk about whether that actually matters, considering this does kind of fit into the larger context of a campaign against his real or perceived enemies.

REID: And that's right. We need to talk about acting Attorney General, Todd Blanche because, since he's taken over the reins at the Justice Department, he has really sped up these efforts to pursue Trump's political adversaries and pursue issues that really matter to the base, as he is effectively auditioning, right, to be the permanent Attorney General.

Now, here though, I am told he has recused from the E. Jean Carroll case. I'm told that because he worked on the previous appeals, he is stepping aside. He's not been involved in discussions or meetings related to this investigation. Instead, I'm told, it's being handled out of the U.S. Attorney's Office in Chicago. Now, Chicago is where Reid Hoffman's non-profit is based. So, that's the nexus to that city.

KEILAR: It's still extraordinary, though, Elie. Because, he's been involved in the appeals here. Talk to us about how significant that is, and if it's really enough just for him to recuse himself.

HONIG: Well, it's the right move, for sure, for Todd Blanche to recuse himself. He was a lawyer who was involved in this case. I actually think there's various other cases, where Todd Blanche should have recused himself, but has not.

But the Attorney General doing the right thing and recusing himself doesn't kosher everything else that happens in the case. It just means that there will not be a defense motion, at some point down the line, for Todd Blanche to recuse himself.

So, I think if anything, Blanche has under-recused, but he's certainly doing the right thing here by taking himself off this case.

KEILAR: How onerous is this for E. Jean Carroll, Elie?

HONIG: It is onerous for any person to be investigated by the Justice Department, whether they are indicted or not. Let me be specific.

First of all, she surely has to go out and get herself counsel, a defense lawyer. Good defense lawyers in New York City cost well into the six figures, at least. It is personally stressful. There is a stress on a person's economics, on a person's profession, on a person's reputation.

And I should say, Bri, this is why prosecutors are trained to be very careful about who and when and why they investigate. Because, you learn that, of course, people who get indicted have to face consequences in court. But even just the mere fact of opening an investigation brings very real costs with it.

KEILAR: Yes, and because Paula, she's also embroiled in multiple legal battles against the President right now.

REID: And that's right, and that's why it's so important when we look at this reporting, it's not just they've opened a criminal investigation, did she commit a crime? If you look at the larger context, we talked about the retribution campaign. But also, her ongoing legal battles with President Trump.

She has multiple judgments that she's been awarded that he has appealed, including one that's been appealed all the way to the Supreme Court. And it's notable that 12 times now, the High Court has punted on deciding whether it wants to take up this case. There's another appeal that could make its way to the Supreme Court. It's possible they want to make a decision on both of them. It's unclear. But you have to see this move in the larger context of this effort to, at this point, not pay what has been established as hers.

KEILAR: 12 times. Wow. I mean--

REID: The Supreme Court. I don't know what they're doing over there. They do what they want. They have no bosses.

KEILAR: They don't have bosses.

As a former federal prosecutor, Elie, where does this DOJ criminal investigation of Carroll go from here?

HONIG: Well, so perjury cases, like I said up front, Brianna, are really harder to make than one may believe at first blush.

So, first of all, they're going to have to show that E. Jean Carroll lied, that she lied intentionally, that she knew it was a lie at the time she made the statements about getting this outside funding.

And DOJ has to show what we call materiality, meaning that the statement that E. Jean Carroll made and allegedly lied about was actually relevant to some issue that mattered in the case, it wasn't just sort of a throwaway detail.

In order to make this case, DOJ is going to have to show that she knew she was lying at the time. And, I think to do that, they're going to have to talk to witnesses around her, they're going to have to subpoena documents, and they're going to have to essentially come up with more or less a smoking gun, showing she definitely did know, she definitely did understand the question she was asked, and she clearly intentionally lied about it. That's harder to do than it may seem.

KEILAR: All right.

Elie. Thank you so much. And to Paula Reid as well. Really appreciate it.

[21:10:00]

We do have some more breaking news tonight. The U.S. military has carried out new strikes in Iran. A source telling CNN, the U.S. targeted a site that posed a threat to U.S. forces and commercial traffic in the Strait of Hormuz.

My source on this is Beth Sanner, former Deputy Director of National Intelligence.

All right, Beth, so these explosions were heard tonight--

BETH SANNER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST, FORMER DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: Yes.

KEILAR: --near an Iranian port that's close to the Strait. We've also learned that the U.S. intercepted these drones, right? They were launched from Iran. So, really putting the fire in ceasefire. Is it--

SANNER: That's funny.

KEILAR: Is it still on, as you see it?

SANNER: I think it is still on. I mean, you can make a definition of this as defensive, or you know, just in terms of the threat to shipping that you need to do this kind of activity.

I personally -- you know, you can read it two ways.

One is that this is just the same as the other day when we saw them planting mines and taking care of business, like Iran should not be threatening international traffic in the Strait.

The other way to read it is that we're sending a signal, or maybe it's kind of a combination of these things, and it's kind of a convenient way to send a signal.

So, we don't know. Now we'll have to see. The last time Iran took down a Reaper drone, about $30 million worth of retribution, right there. Probably a couple $10,000 boats got taken out in exchange, the Iranian ones. This time, there probably wasn't anything that they took down from the United States. So, let's see now what they do next.

The rhetoric coming out of Iran, the fact that they were planting mines, two days ago, in the Strait, and the statements of the -- coming out from the official media, saying that Iran had every intention to be basically, without saying it, taking tolls on the Strait, shows that they are hanging tough on this, and this is completely contrary to what President Trump said today in the Cabinet meeting.

KEILAR: The President often threatens to blow up Iran. Right?

SANNER: Yes.

KEILAR: We've kind of become used to that.

SANNER: Yes.

KEILAR: We wonder if that's losing some of its effect.

Today he threatened strikes. But not on Iran. Let's listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: The Strait is going to be open to everybody. It's -- it's international waters.

REPORTER: And who would control it?

TRUMP: Nobody's going to control it. We're going to watch over it. We'll watch over it. But nobody's going to control it. That's part of the negotiation that we have.

It's international waters, and Oman will behave just like everybody else, or we'll have to blow them up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: OK. Oman has been a key mediator in this.

SANNER: Yes. KEILAR: The negotiations.

SANNER: Yes.

KEILAR: What did you think hearing that?

SANNER: Well, Iran today said in their statement that they were going to be working with Oman to take these tolls, to be creating this mechanism for transit in the Strait.

And so, after this happened, and I first thought, like, I wonder if he's just confusing the names. No, he wasn't confusing the names.

KEILAR: I thought that as well. Again -- yes.

SANNER: The State Department then put out the post that, where it's repeated, so we know that's what he meant.

And I think it was a signal to Oman. It's like, No, I'm sorry, but you can't be on Iran's side on this. We really are going to have a free and open international transit in the Strait, and you're not going to be playing some back-channel stuff with Iran.

And frankly, like, this is the fact about Oman, is that they have been very close in dealing with Iran in the past. They have been mediators. But at the same time, they've also turned a blind eye to some of the shenanigans in terms of Iran, for example, supporting the proxies in Yemen.

So, yes, it's a signal, and it -- they mean it.

KEILAR: As if this wasn't enough of an uphill battle, peace talks between the U.S. and Iran. The President has added this additional challenge of saying that regional allies should sign on to the Abraham Accords, that they should normalize relations with Israel. And he really strengthened this demand, it felt like, earlier today, where he said that it's a condition, I'm paraphrasing, but that was essentially what he said, and that they owe it to us, that they owe it to the U.S.

How much harder would that make things?

SANNER: I think it will make it very hard. Because, as he then turned to Steve Witkoff, and he said, So, are they going to sign it -- aren't they going to sign it, the Abraham Accords?

And Steve Witkoff's reply was, We're pressing them very hard. Which suggests to me that Steve Witkoff knows that Saudi Arabia is not going to sign up. They pretty much said that out loud after this call on Sunday. They're not going to do that until and unless Israel starts moving in an irrevocable way toward a Palestinian state.

[21:15:00]

And instead, what we're seeing happening in Israel, and the United States not pressing Israel as hard as we could on this. In the West Bank, things are getting worse. And in Gaza, things are exactly the same as where we left them, I don't know, two months ago? The Board of Peace has no money. Hamas refuses to disarm. And people are still suffering. You know, it is a mess.

So, Saudi's not going to sign on. And Pakistan also said, No way.

KEILAR: Yes, that Witkoff moment was so telling.

SANNER: Yes.

KEILAR: Beth, stick around because there is more. There is a shocking report from The New York Times about a CIA official who has just been arrested with $40 million worth of gold bars in his house. You won't believe how many Rolex watches. We'll talk about what's going on, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:20:00]

KEILAR: Tonight, The New York Times is reporting on what is just a stunning arrest of a CIA official, after investigators found hundreds of gold bars worth more than $40 million stashed in his Virginia home. The CIA and FBI say the arrest occurred last week, after the agency alerted the FBI about potential violations of the law.

And according to court documents, the official, who is identified as David Rush, asked for and received a significant quantity of foreign currency and tens of millions of dollars in gold bars for work-related expenses in recent months. When agents searched Rush's home, they found approximately 303 gold bars, each of which weighed a kilogram, approximately two pounds. And investigators also seized $2 million in American currency and nearly three dozen luxury watches, many of them Rolexes.

I'll note that a lawyer for Mr. Rush declined to comment to The Times, and a woman answering the phone at Mr. Rush's house hung up on a Times reporter.

Former Deputy Director of National Intelligence, Beth Sanner, is back with me.

So many questions here. So many gold bars.

SANNER: Yes, right.

KEILAR: But what kind of circumstances does the CIA hand out hundreds of gold bars to an officer for?

SANNER: Well, I can't say it ever happened to me, having been an analyst.

KEILAR: You don't have any gold bars?

SANNER: I don't, and I never, yes.

But when you're in the operations side and you're operating in denied areas. So one, that's very public in lots of people's cleared memoirs is going into Afghanistan at the beginning of going after Osama bin Laden. And CIA officers went in with millions and millions of dollars on their person.

And so, this is something that you do when you're working in denied areas. You can look around the world, you might have said maybe Venezuela at that point in time, maybe Yemen, maybe Nigeria, places in the Middle East, maybe still Afghanistan, we don't know. But there are legitimate reasons for a case officer to have these items. You might want to give a gold watch out to an asset to either recruit them or to reward them. You need cash.

KEILAR: But maybe not 30. But maybe not 30.

SANNER: Well, you know, you got a lot of assets.

KEILAR: Yes, that's right.

So, there's so much here, the web, right? He's accused of lying about his qualifications as well. Over the years.

SANNER: Yes.

KEILAR: The Times says that he inflated his academic credentials and falsely claimed to be a member of the Navy Reserve when he was discharged, and then collected pay for that.

How does the CIA, of all organizations, miss that?

SANNER: OK. So, when I looked through the affidavit, two things came to mind. One is that the guy is a pathological liar. And I'm not a psychologist, so I don't know if that's true. So, I'm trying not to slander anybody. But that's how I would read it. And--

KEILAR: That he's different than normal -- than norm -- than most of the population--

SANNER: Yes, I mean, the definition--

KEILAR: --for how they'd represent themselves and get away with it.

SANNER: The definition of a pathological liar is someone who lies, and makes these kind of knowing lies, things that can be found out, but has so much confidence and truly believes what they're telling you. And so, therefore, you can pass a polygraph, if you're a pathological liar because you truly believe what you're saying is correct.

KEILAR: Because physiologically they're not giving off--

SANNER: They won't react.

KEILAR: --the things that a polygraph would pick up.

SANNER: Yes. You're not sweating when you're lying.

KEILAR: Because how -- I mean-- SANNER: You're not breathing heavily.

KEILAR: You--

SANNER: You believe it.

KEILAR: Would you -- would he have been polygraphed when he started?

SANNER: Yes. You would be polygraphed--

KEILAR: I mean, you think he would have passed multiple? Or what--

SANNER: Oh, multiple. He was in for 17 years.

KEILAR: Really?

SANNER: So, yes, I mean, he -- he passed three, four, five, I don't know, depends on what his job was, or whatever. So clearly he lied.

But the other part of this is there was some systemic failure here.

KEILAR: Allegedly, yes.

SANNER: We should have caught his -- allegedly, please.

KEILAR: Yes.

SANNER: They should have caught that claim that he went to Clemson, that he went to Rensselaer, that he was claiming a different rank in the Navy.

And I suspect what happened here, and I do not know, but I suspect what happened here is he was retiring, and they were starting to go through the paperwork to count his number of years of service, and all of a sudden things started not falling into place.

KEILAR: Because looking at it as a total thing.

SANNER: Yes.

KEILAR: You think on the front end, too, though. It should--

SANNER: This is -- this is--

KEILAR: You should notice it on the front end.

SANNER: This is the potential systemic problem.

[21:25:00]

KEILAR: OK. Yes. So, talk about that. Because if this is indicative of some sloppy work, they're really going to be questioning, and certainly there's going to be a lot of scrutiny from Congress--

SANNER: Yes.

KEILAR: --about how they're doing things.

SANNER: Yes, and things have changed a lot since when he joined in 2009. A lot. The process has changed. We now have -- not we -- but CIA and the intelligence community uses all sorts of AI and computer searches and all of these things, like, I can't say that what happened here 17 years ago would be anywhere close to how it is done today. There have been significant changes in the hiring process to make it more efficient to rely more on internet searches, and as well as investigations. So, that's that.

But I also will say, knowing CIA and having enormous respect for the professionals who still are there. Absolutely. They're going to take this seriously. They're going to be more upset than anyone that this happened, and they are going to do their own investigations, and I guarantee, they will look and they will fix. But, of course, Congress will be asking a lot of questions as well.

KEILAR: Yes.

SANNER: A huge embarrassment.

KEILAR: Huge. It's so mind-blowing and alarming.

SANNER: It is. It's sad.

KEILAR: Yes.

SANNER: But big organizations, bad people sometimes.

KEILAR: Beth--

SANNER: Not very many.

KEILAR: Let's hope.

Beth Sanner, thank you so much.

Up next. What Kaitlan saw at the White House. Structures towering over the South Lawn to frame a historic stage for one night only.

[21:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: If you're wondering what on earth is happening on the South Lawn behind me right now. That is not construction of President Trump's new ballroom. That is actually the construction ahead of the UFC fight that is scheduled to take place here on June 14th.

Now, it's part of the events that are leading up to America's 250th birthday on July 4th. That will be held though on Flag Day here at the White House, which is also the weekend of President Trump's birthday. And he says an estimated 4,000 people will be held in that arena when it's finished being built here on the South Lawn of the White House. Weigh-ins are going to take place at the Lincoln Memorial. Massive watch parties are going to happen here in Washington.

And as you look at it, it's kind of hard to overstate just how big the construction is of the Octagon Arena that they are building here for the UFC fight, set to take place in just a few weeks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: For more on this, I want to bring in my political sources.

Democratic strategist Maria Cardona.

And Republican strategist, Shermichael Singleton.

Giant UFC fans, right guys? No?

SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Yes, I am.

MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: This guy, right here.

KEILAR: Yes. I saw that sort of apparatus at Kings Dominion. They like shoot you up in the air.

SINGLETON: Oh, yes, that's right.

CARDONA: Yes.

KEILAR: This is different. This is a--

CARDONA: Really what it looked like--

SINGLETON: It looked like--

KEILAR: This is a stadium.

OK, what do you think, Maria, of this whole affair?

CARDONA: I think it's the continued desecration, Brianna, of the People's House. And look, I'm not putting down UFC. I know that it is a huge event. Tons of people love it. But why not have it on the mall? Why not have it somewhere else that is not in the middle of the White House?

And I think what it does is it reminds people just how much this administration's priority is not affordability, is not bringing down costs, it's not focused on inflation, it's not keeping the promises that they made during the campaign. But it is these grandiose, gaudy, sort of flashy, I think vulgar events, that have everything to do with not honoring the American people, he's using the 250th anniversary as an excuse, but honoring Donald Trump.

And it goes to Americans now thinking, this is why they're so mad, and why Donald Trump's poll numbers are continuing to go in the wrong direction because, he's not focused on the priorities of the American people. He's focused on his own priorities.

SINGLETON: Look, I think, Brianna, we can focus on cost of living, housing shortages, educational crisis within our country, focusing on issues with young men, focusing on the issues of our inner cities, immigration, and foreign affairs. We can do all of those things, and we should do those things, and we should assure the American people that they are top priorities for the Republican Party and for the President.

That said, we can also celebrate the 250th anniversary of the country. I'm a big UFC fan. I think it's wonderful to have Americans at the People's House, the White House, it is all of our houses, to be there, and also to see a sport that millions of Americans like and adore.

And by the way, I'll add, I think Donald Trump recognizes the strength that he has had and Republicans have had for a couple of years now with men, particularly 25- to 45-year-olds. So, I also think there's a political dynamic to this, also.

KEILAR: Certainly. And as the fight is happening. You mentioned his approval rating. Hovering in the mid-30s, it's the lowest that it's ever been.

And UFC CEO, Dana White, actually spoke about that during an interview with Rolling Stone on Tuesday. Let's listen to that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANA WHITE, CEO, UFC: As far as his -- his popularity as a president, and you know, his policies, I mean, that stuff goes like this, over a four year term for every president. But it doesn't change my relationship with him as my friend.

[21:35:00]

JACK CROSBIE, SENIOR WRITER, ROLLING STONE: Do you think he needs this right now? It seems like, I mean--

WHITE: Probably not.

I bet he probably would -- you know, this wasn't happening, but it's happening. I don't know. He's never said anything to me like that.

CROSBIE: Yes.

WHITE: But you know, this guy's dealing with shit--

CROSBIE: Yes.

WHITE: --that people like you and I can't even imagine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: What do you think? Trump probably wishes the fight wasn't happening?

SINGLETON: I don't know if that's true--

CARDONA: I don't think it's true.

SINGLETON: --knowing the President as well as I do.

Again, as I said, it's the People's House, and I think to celebrate the country with a sport that a lot of Americans do adore and enjoy, again, particularly men, I think is smart.

I think when you're looking at the election upcoming, there are some issues that Democrats and Republicans are going to fight over. I think it's ultimately going to come down to the margins, in some of these key races. You just heard some of the talking points that Democrats will lay against Republicans this November, from Maria.

And so, for us, we're looking at those marginal differences, trying to figure out, Brianna, where can we pull some of those voters that may look at Democrats and say, Yes, maybe their messaging is somewhat accurate on this, but there are other cultural, social issues that I don't really -- that don't resonate with me.

KEILAR: And I -- I want to -- this is -- let's broaden this out to a bigger theme.

CARDONA: Yes.

SINGLETON: Sure.

KEILAR: Because I do think that the President has been talking a lot about things that are not affordability, things that are not the war. In fact, during today's Cabinet meeting, he spent about nine minutes talking about renovation projects in D.C. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: D.C. is looking beautiful. The fountains are almost all open. We had 28 of them, and we have one in particular, a very long lake, we call it the Reflecting Lake, between the Lincoln Monument.

It was supposed to cost almost 400 -- think of it, $400 million because it's like putting the skin on a skyscraper.

You will see something that's really going to be beautiful.

It'll last for 50 years, maybe a 100 years.

Go back to 1922, it was always sort of people think of it as beautiful, but it was always a mess.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: He did talk a lot today about Iran, but he also said he doesn't care about the midterms when it comes to Iran. Should he?

CARDONA: I mean, I think Republicans probably want him to care about the midterms.

But again, this fight, what they're doing, the ballroom, even the Iran war which is a war that no one wanted and no one needed, it tells the American people, this is not an administration, and this is not a president, that is focused on their priorities. And in fact it is a president that has betrayed them because, he promised to bring down the cost of groceries, gas, and rent.

And while you say that Republicans can focus on this, the problem is they haven't. The problem is, Trump has done everything but focus on those priorities. And everything he has done, from the tariffs, to the war, to focus on the billions of dollars that he is spending on the war, the ballroom, even this, where taxpayers are going to have to pay for security on it, and that's going to be hundreds of thousands of dollars, the American--

SINGLETON: But does that message -- but does--

CARDONA: --people don't want that.

SINGLETON: But does that message resonate? And the reason I asked that question is because if you look at the approval rating for the Democratic Party, writ large, it's in the tank. It hasn't improved.

CARDONA: But you know what--

SINGLETON: Yes, they have won a slew of special elections.

CARDONA: Yes.

SINGLETON: But these are individual candidates, Maria.

CARDONA: And -- but here's the thing--

SINGLETON: And even -- and even if -- and even if my expectation is that you guys will probably win the House, I'll see you ground on that, but certainly not by the margins that they should, all things considered. Why is that, Brianna?

CARDONA: Oh--

SINGLETON: Because most people look at the Democratic Party, and many of their positions, culturally and policy wise, and say, This is a party that is not in sync or in line with where I am. Which means, there's still opportunity for my party to address the issues that you just critiqued us though on.

CARDONA: If that was true, though, Shermichael, Democrats would not be the ones flipping more than 30 state legislative seats from red to blue.

SINGLETON: I will give you that. You guys have.

CARDONA: So -- so you -- exactly.

SINGLETON: I can acknowledge that. CARDONA: And so, you are right, it is about individual candidates. But who is running this November? Individual candidates. So I guarantee you we will--

SINGLETON: Well I hope your party doesn't listen to you.

CARDONA: --we will be talking -- we will be talking about the Democrats winning back the House, and I bet you the Senate as well.

KEILAR: Yes.

SINGLETON: Now see, that's a bridge too far.

KEILAR: This is--

SINGLETON: I'm not going to see that grounding you, Maria.

KEILAR: If you think that's--

CARDONA: All right.

KEILAR: --wait -- wait for the commercial break.

CARDONA: We'll see.

KEILAR: Maria Cardona. Shermichael Singleton. Thank you so much to both of you.

SINGLETON: Thank you, Brianna.

CARDONA: Thank you, Brianna.

KEILAR: And up next. A conversation that you won't want to miss. Kaitlan sat down with comedian Craig Ferguson ahead of his new show that's debuting right here on CNN, discovering the heart of America.

[21:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: 250 years ago, America broke up with the British Empire, kicking off a centuries-long journey of self-discovery.

But America is not the only one who broke up with the U.K. to come into their own. Enter the comedian, Craig Ferguson, who left Scotland to pursue his own American dream, which is obviously joining me here on THE SOURCE. And he also has an all-new CNN Original Series where he explores what it really means to be an American today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, my grandfather made the shoes.

CRAIG FERGUSON, COMEDIAN, HOST, "AMERICAN ON PURPOSE": Yes, right. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And the boots--

FERGUSON: I'm making the shoes for all the people who make of that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He made the shoes and the boots, and my grandmother made the clothes.

FERGUSON: I'm going to come through here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh my god.

FERGUSON: I'm going to make -- I'm going to make all the shoes for all the people.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please, the wall is weeping, I can't take it.

FERGUSON: So the word, immigrant, you've said this, it's a?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a word of honor.

FERGUSON: It is a word of honor.

[21:45:00]

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In it -- and a word of honor is -- comes with a bond, and it's a sacred bond. You come here and you own it too, belongs to all of us. Not one group, not one family, not one person more than another. It belongs to all of us.

FERGUSON: Bring the good stuff from where you're from and leave the crap where it was. This is the new world. Bring your heritage. Bring your culture.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bring it.

FERGUSON: But bring an open mind.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

FERGUSON: Because this is America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: That series is "Craig Ferguson: American On Purpose."

And Craig Ferguson joins me now.

That sounds like a--

FERGUSON: Actually I think you find that the series is called Craig Ferguson: American On Purpose. Because although -- you know I just turned 64.

COLLINS: Happy belated.

FERGUSON: Thank you. But when I'm 65 then that'll be another -- that's a colon birthday -- every five or zero is a colon birthday.

COLLINS: Wait, what is you turning 64 have to do with that?

FERGUSON: It's cameras, you know, camera -- they put cameras on you on your birthday.

COLLINS: Oh.

FERGUSON: You think you're old.

COLLINS: OK.

FERGUSON: You're way -- that's just way down the line for you. I'm just saying, it happens as you get older, they start putting cameras everywhere right about birthday time.

COLLINS: I mean, you know, you say you're turning 65. When is your birthday?

FERGUSON: May the 17th.

COLLINS: OK.

FERGUSON: Same as Norway.

COLLINS: OK. You and Norway.

FERGUSON: Norway's birthday is May the 17th. I'm not the same age as Norway.

COLLINS: So you're both Geminis?

FERGUSON: No, we're Tauruses actually.

COLLINS: Taurus.

FERGUSON: Wow. That's good though. We're right on the cusp between Gemini and Taurus.

COLLINS: OK. Well, I mean, I was going to say you'd be the prime age to run for president here in the United States if you could.

FERGUSON: I--

COLLINS: That sounded like a presidential slogan there--

FERGUSON: I can't.

COLLINS: --you know, that clip.

FERGUSON: I can't do that. I can't do that. Because constitutionally because I wasn't born here, I can't be president. Did you know that?

COLLINS: I did know that.

FERGUSON: Yes. Well you probably did. Yes. Yes. But yes-- COLLINS: There's a bit of controversy over that--

FERGUSON: I think they tried to change that--

COLLINS: --I don't know if you remember this, just a few years ago.

FERGUSON: --I think when Schwarzenegger was the Governor of California, they were like, We could get Arnold to be the president. And everybody was like, I don't know if he's the guy to make an amendment for.

COLLINS: I mean--

FERGUSON: But given he is--

COLLINS: --hearing from that woman, though, was really sweet. What she had to say.

FERGUSON: Yes.

COLLINS: I mean, you could see how genuine she was, and how much -- how much she--

FERGUSON: Brianna (ph). She's a very clever author. She's Italian American. Her grandparents came over, and they -- they went through Ellis Island. That's why I was wearing that hat because we went to Ellis Island that day and I figured, Well, I have to wear that hat for Ellis Island. It was before my mustache totally began--

COLLINS: Do you have to wear that hat for Ellis Island?

FERGUSON: Yes, I did have to wear the hat. Come on, Kaitlan, you're going to Ellis Island, you got to look the part a little bit. I wanted to look like Vito Corleone coming through.

COLLINS: Yes.

FERGUSON: Like--

COLLINS: I don't know that that's the vibe I got when I saw the hat.

FERGUSON: Well--

COLLINS: But I did notice the hat immediately, first sight of that.

FERGUSON: Well what vibe did you get when you saw the hat, and what were you thinking?

COLLINS: Honestly, you want to know what it reminded me of?

FERGUSON: This is not going to be good. But all right, let's go.

COLLINS: It reminded me of this one time that my dad wore a fedora, and he ran into Ron DeSantis when he was running for president, and they took a picture together.

FERGUSON: Yes.

COLLINS: And I was like, well, take a picture with him, tell him you're my dad.

My dad sent me a picture, and it was him wearing a fedora, and I was like, That's all I'm seeing right now in this picture.

FERGUSON: Well it wasn't a fedora. It was a Peaky Blinders cap. It was like a -- I was -- I looked like I was a kind of, you know, dangerous and stuff.

COLLINS: Do you wear any other hats in the show?

FERGUSON: Yes, I wear a cowboy hat in one episode, actually.

COLLINS: OK.

FERGUSON: Yes, we -- we went to -- I went to Texas, and we were getting cowboy hats. This is true. And they would brand the cowboy hat for you when you buy this.

COLLINS: Yes.

FERGUSON: So, I said to the guy, Just brand me--

COLLINS: Oh my god.

FERGUSON: --brand me, do it right now.

And he said, No.

And I said, Do it.

And he said, I'll do it if you turn the camera off.

You'll do it? All right. Here's--

COLLINS: Did you think he was being serious?

FERGUSON: Yes I think -- I don't think -- he would have done it.

COLLINS: There's no point in doing it, though, if it's not on camera.

FERGUSON: Anything.

COLLINS: Yes.

FERGUSON: I think that's true. I don't -- I don't -- I don't see any reason why I would get branded. Would you ever do that? Did you ever get branded?

COLLINS: No.

FERGUSON: Why not? It was a -- the reason -- I got a little -- where did I put it?

COLLINS: Is it painful?

FERGUSON: Oh, yes, there. I got a little -- because that's the brand that they put on--

COLLINS: Can you lift it up?

FERGUSON: Where's your camera -- where you go -- it's a little cactus tattoo because, that was the brand he was going to do, but I -- I checked in though--

COLLINS: And that's what you want him to brand?

FERGUSON: Well, that's what he had. He just had a cactus -- he didn't have, like, a selection. It's a hat thing. It's not like -- it's not like, you know, What brand did you like?

COLLINS: I know. I'm from Alabama. I'm familiar with branding.

FERGUSON: Really?

COLLINS: But typically it's for--

FERGUSON: Have you been branded?

COLLINS: --for cattle, for horses.

FERGUSON: Yes, yes, that's true, yes. But this is a different thing. This is little cactus hat branding.

COLLINS: So, what else did you see in Texas?

FERGUSON: Went to the Texas State Fair. You ever been to that?

COLLINS: Oh, yes.

FERGUSON: Oh my goodness.

COLLINS: It's so fun.

FERGUSON: That is fantastic.

COLLINS: What did you -- how much fried stuff did you have?

FERGUSON: You know, I left there weighing about 500 pounds. I began my weight loss journey after that. It's amazing, though. I had this barbecue from a Smokey John's. You ever heard of Smokey John's in Texas?

COLLINS: Yes.

FERGUSON: It's really good.

COLLINS: What'd you have, like pulled pork, or ribs?

FERGUSON: Yes, and I'm vegan, so it was -- it was a big day for me.

COLLINS: Trump says, if you're vegan, you can't run for office. The people in Texas don't like vegans.

FERGUSON: Well, I'm not a vegan anymore after--

COLLINS: He's very--

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: What happens is, I was vegan right up until the Texas State Fair, and then things went south.

COLLINS: But did you have anything fried at the State Fair?

FERGUSON: Yes, I think so. I think we had everything fried. I think--

COLLINS: Like, I had fried butter at the Texas State Fair one time, which I didn't even--

FERGUSON: You'd really like Scotland. You'd really like Scotland.

COLLINS: I didn't think how you can fry butter, but they truly would flash-fry it.

FERGUSON: Yes.

COLLINS: Then you would eat it, and it's just butter that's fried.

FERGUSON: Did they take you straight to the hospital afterwards? I think they--

[21:50:00]

COLLINS: I'm from Alabama, so my body was more equipped for it, I think.

FERGUSON: I think -- I think that's a myth, Kaitlan. I feel like your cholesterol just -- it just happens, it goes straight to your heart.

COLLINS: Fried Oreos, fried everything.

FERGUSON: Scotland, they do fried pizza, deep fried pizza.

COLLINS: The entire pizza? Or by the slice?

FERGUSON: I don't know. It depends how much money you got. You want the whole pizza fried? OK, we can do that for you. Depends on how big your deep fat fryer--

COLLINS: So, Scotland is similar to the South, you're telling me?

FERGUSON: Very, actually. I tell you, I always feel a great deal of affinity with people in the South because, they too suffer from the same thing I suffer from, which is people I meet think they can do my accent better than me, right?

COLLINS: Yes. FERGUSON: And you get that from the South. Like, if you're from the South, you say, I'm from Alabama. People go, How do you -- ding dong ding.

Yes, they do that to me. If I -- if I say I'm from Scotland. Like, Oh, Shrek, farty donkey, or -- farty -- whatever.

COLLINS: And you're like--

FERGUSON: Which is, fair enough, that is how I talk.

COLLINS: And are you fake-polite back to them when they say that?

FERGUSON: Always, you do the little passive aggressive laughing. Oh, hi. You know, like, you do that--

COLLINS: And then you go, like, OK, yes, sure.

FERGUSON: --yes, yes.

COLLINS: I mean, that's like what you're trained to do.

FERGUSON: Yes, well, you know, it's your business. You go--

(CROSSTALK)

COLLINS: And what else are you excited about, about the show? What should people be looking forward to?

FERGUSON: I think there's a lot of cool things in it. I got to drive a monster truck in this show, which is probably not exciting for you, but it was very exciting for me. I drove the Grave Digger monster truck.

COLLINS: Really?

FERGUSON: Yes, I got in it, I drove it.

COLLINS: That's actually extremely impressive.

FERGUSON: It is really impressive, and I'd never done it before. And let me tell you this. If you're having trouble, and I'm sorry to get scatological on this, but if you're having trouble moving things through, get in a monster truck. I'm telling you, it's like, wow, it's like SpaceX for your -- I don't even know if that makes sense. It's SpaceX for you.

COLLINS: Like a G-Force, with you, like, driving?

FERGUSON: Yes, it's like, Wow, it's -- it's amazing.

COLLINS: Oh man, on that note, and that advice, Craig Ferguson--

FERGUSON: Oh, I think we can't end on that surely.

COLLINS: That's more-- FERGUSON: Like, get in a monster truck, and you poop yourself? That's not the way to end.

COLLINS: You said it.

FERGUSON: That's a--

(CROSSTALK)

COLLINS: You said it.

FERGUSON: Yes. But you know that's it. So now -- now I have to tell the truth, all of a sudden?

COLLINS: Yes, these are the perils of live television.

FERGUSON: Yes, all right. I did live television for a long time. This is as live as the show I did.

COLLINS: Craig Ferguson. You don't want to miss that. How could you?

We have the all-new CNN Original Series, "Craig Ferguson: American On Purpose."

FERGUSON: Hang on. I want to get in your show--

(CROSSTALK)

COLLINS: It premieres Saturday at 09:00 p.m. on CNN.

FERGUSON: Oh, look, wait, no I want to -- go back to the thing. Go back to the thing. Now look at this. This is--

COLLINS: Can we show the graphic again?

FERGUSON: Show the graphic again. Because, this clearly is wrong, this graphic. If you look at the size of that bald eagle, like that's -- that's a pigeon. Look at the size of my hand. That would have to be enormous.

COLLINS: Maybe it's like a baby.

FERGUSON: But wait -- wait -- you want my microphone off?

COLLINS: It's like a boat? It's a baby eagle.

FERGUSON: No, it's not a baby eagle. It's just--

COLLINS: And you're wrapped in the American flag.

FERGUSON: Yes, I know.

COLLINS: That's something.

FERGUSON: I have that -- I have American -- I have American flag pajamas--

COLLINS: Yes.

FERGUSON: --on right now, I'm wearing them. I'm wearing them right now. I'm wearing my American flag pajamas.

(CROSSTALK)

COLLINS: I'm going to be shocked if this airs.

FERGUSON: Why? What's wrong with you?

COLLINS: The whole thing.

FERGUSON: People have to know. People have to know. And it's live. And how can it not air, Kaitlan?

COLLINS: People have to--

FERGUSON: Because it's live, so it be -- it has to. This is live right now. Aha, you wanted to do it live? Well, here I am, CNN.

COLLINS: People have to know what pajamas you're wearing?

FERGUSON: I don't know. I'm wearing pajamas. Yes, why not? It's fine.

COLLINS: I mean--

FERGUSON: It's all the news that's fit to print. Who was that? New York Times? I think it was actually.

COLLINS: Still, is I think.

FERGUSON: Is it?

COLLINS: Yes.

FERGUSON: Are they still going?

COLLINS: Yes.

FERGUSON: Good for them

COLLINS: Yes.

FERGUSON: Good for them.

COLLINS: Yes.

FERGUSON: That's great. What is it? It's a Substack or something now, or is it?

COLLINS: Yes.

FERGUSON: You know let's do--

COLLINS: TikTok channel.

FERGUSON: Do you know what -- do you have a blog? I know -- a blog. What do you call it, a podcast?

COLLINS: A blog.

FERGUSON: Yes, wait, it's a thing that is that--

COLLINS: Feel like I'm like in --

FERGUSON: Are you on Myspace? Is anyone on Myspace--

COLLINS: --12-years-old.

FERGUSON: No. Do you have a podcast?

COLLINS: No. I mean, the show is on a podcast, so, like, you can listen to it on podcast.

FERGUSON: No, but here's the thing, I had a podcast, and I stopped doing it because I would run into people that I know from show business, and I would see this look in their eye. And you know what the look is?

COLLINS: Pity.

FERGUSON: No, it's -- it's -- well that that I always have.

COLLINS: Jealousy?

FERGUSON: No, it's the look that, He's going to ask me to be on his podcast.

And I was like, Oh, no, I'm not.

And when you say I'm still doing the podcast, people are like, Oh, hey, man, how are you doing?

COLLINS: To be fair, I think that's actually what lawmakers do when they see me like out in Washington.

FERGUSON: Yes.

COLLINS: Because I'm always cornering them about why they're not coming on the show. And I do think they try to avoid my eye contact because of the--

FERGUSON: Why do they try and avoid you? This is a great show.

COLLINS: Agreed.

FERGUSON: This is a great show. Like, if I was a senator or some kind of whatever, those guys do, I could--

COLLINS: Can you look into that camera, and tell the lawmakers they should come on the show? FERGUSON: Lawmakers, you -- you know who's -- down there in Washington. What are you guys got to do? You come on Kaitlan's show. There's free soda, and you're allowed to wear your American pajamas underneath your regular clothes.

COLLINS: And get branded.

FERGUSON: Yes, you can get branded up here as well. And if you're from the South, we'll do your accent for you.

COLLINS: "Craig Ferguson: American On Purpose" premieres this Saturday, 09:00 p.m., here on CNN, and the next day on the CNN app.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[21:55:00]

KEILAR: No, it's not live. But it was a little insane, wasn't it?

Up next. What Republican operatives have started doing after months of attacking Ken Paxton.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:00:00]

KEILAR: Tonight. Cleanup on Aisle Paxton. With the Texas Senate GOP runoff now in the rear view, and Trump-backed candidate Ken Paxton, the victor, a CNN KFILE review found in the hours since he became the Republican nominee, the Senate GOP's official campaign arm has been deleting dozens of press releases, digital ads and statements, attacking Ken Paxton as unelectable. Now, despite whatever misgivings they had, they are on board with Paxton.

Thank you so much for joining us.

"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.