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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Trump's DNI Pick Refuses To Say Biden Won 2020 Election; U.S. Bombs Iran For Fifth Night With Two Waves Of Attacks; Trump Overturns ICE's Pause On Traffic Stops. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired July 15, 2026 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
JOHN KING, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: --in the reporting, at least one person refused to turn this over. Is that correct?
EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: At least one person declined to turn it over, and we know that some agencies told their employees that they should -- that they should call lawyers if they were asked to do so. So, we will see where this leak hunt finally does turn up, John.
KING: Remarkable. Evan Perez, thank you.
And the news continues. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: The 2026 midterm elections are in less than four months. So, why was the 2020 election at the center of battles on Capitol Hill today?
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
Joe Biden won the 2020 election. That is the truth. And it is also a sentence that President Trump's nominee to lead the nation's intelligence community declined to say today, as he was testifying on Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MARK WARNER (D-VA): Do you deny that Joe Biden won the 2020 election?
JAY CLAYTON, DNI NOMINEE: Senator, I'm not -- I'm not an election denier. Joe -- Joe Biden was certified as the President of the United States.
SEN. MARK KELLY (D-AZ): Can you tell me why Joe Biden was certified as the winner of the 2020 election?
CLAYTON: I believe he had the most electoral votes.
KELLY: So, he won the election?
CLAYTON: He followed our process, had the most electoral votes, was declared the winner.
KELLY: The reason why we struggle with this, and I think it's especially important in the job you're nominated for, is because it seems that folks who are nominated for these positions just fundamentally refuse to disagree with something the President says. And the problem I have with this is he isn't in the room today. You're going to be in a room with him.
SEN. JON OSSOFF (D-GA): Who won the 2020 election?
CLAYTON: You know what, I'm not -- I'm not going to do this with you.
OSSOFF: This is a job interview. We have established that you have an obligation to be honest--
CLAYTON: It's a pretty interesting job.
OSSOFF: --and forthright with the committee.
Yes, you do have an obligation to be honest and forthright with the committee?
CLAYTON: Yes.
OSSOFF: Who won the 2020 election?
CLAYTON: Like I said, I'm not -- I'm not going to get into that with you.
OSSOFF: But you do have an obligation to be honest and forthright with the committee.
CLAYTON: Is anything that I just said not honest or forthright?
OSSOFF: Yes, you're not being honest or forthright.
CLAYTON: I don't think I'm--
OSSOFF: Who won the 2020 election?
CLAYTON: I think I have answered the question. We can keep doing this.
I have answered--
OSSOFF: Who won the 2020 election?
CLAYTON: I have answered the question.
OSSOFF: Answer it. What is your answer?
CLAYTON: I've given you my answer.
OSSOFF: What is your answer?
You refuse to answer a basic question about who won a presidential election? CLAYTON: No, I--
OSSOFF: But you ask to lead America's intelligence community? Isn't it humiliating to be unable to answer this question, to have to indulge the President's delusions? We know, you know, everybody in this room knows, the truthful answer to that question. Why can you not give it?
CLAYTON: I think I gave you the answer.
WARNER: We've tried umpteen different ways to give you the ability to just acknowledge that Joe Biden was the president, and was fairly and duly elected.
CLAYTON: I -- I've acknowledged, Senator, that Joe Biden was the president. I've acknowledged that.
WARNER: And fairly and duly elected.
CLAYTON: And fairly and duly elected under our process.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: President Trump's refusal to accept his 2020 loss to Joe Biden cast a huge shadow over the confirmation hearings today for two of his profiles, his highest profile nominees in 2026. Not only Jay Clayton as the Director of National Intelligence, but also Todd Blanche for Attorney General. Both of them need nearly every single Republican vote in the Senate as they prepare to lead the agencies already at the center of major controversies.
While several questions about elections and investigations were dismissed as hypotheticals today, consider this in the background: In 24 hours from now, the President is slated to deliver a primetime speech from the White House that he told reporters will focus on, quote, Free and fair elections. Sources say that speech is expected to focus on voting machine security and alleged efforts by foreign nations to influence U.S. elections.
But given how important it will be for Blanche and Jay Clayton to hold on to nearly every Republican vote. It's notable to hear a Republican senator urging the President, as we did today, to focus on the elections that are coming, not relitigating the one that he lost six years ago.
[21:05:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R-TX): I, frankly, am more concerned about the upcoming midterm elections than I am of what happened in 2020. And obviously, election integrity is very important. But I personally don't see any point in relitigating an election that occurred six years ago.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COLLINS: Now, Senator John Cornyn, who you heard from there, was one of several Republicans who pressed Todd Blanche about the so-called Anti-Weaponization Fund that was created and then scrapped, after backlash from Republican senators, and also whether the administration and the Justice Department have done enough to show senators that fund is not coming back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CORNYN: You have said that the weaponization fund is a moot issue. Is that your position?
TODD BLANCHE, ACTING ATTORNEY GENERAL, A.G. NOMINEE: Yes, it is a moot issue, meaning there is no weaponization fund. The weaponization fund is dead. It's not moving forward.
CORNYN: But just to be clear, the President of the United States, who was the plaintiff in this lawsuit, has not agreed in writing to delete the weaponization fund.
BLANCHE: I suppose they could bring a lawsuit, and then we would litigate it. But even if we were litigating it, there's no fund.
SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): I want to stick a fork in this turkey of a 1776 fund. And you've said that it's moot.
I think that the courts are probably going to deal with it. But why should we waste the court capacity on this issue, if I could walk to the Senate floor with an agreed-to piece of text coming from the administration that just renders this whole thing dead, gone.
Can I get your commitment to, to maybe provide us with some technical assistance on what that language would look like?
BLANCHE: Absolutely.
TILLIS: Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Joining me tonight, after a wild day in Washington, my political and legal sources are here.
Elie Honig, first off on -- that's Todd Blanche there answering those questions. Jay Clayton today, who we had not -- we've heard from Todd Blanche many times testifying. We had not really heard from Jay Clayton, certainly in this sense. Right now, he's running where you used to work, the SDNY. What did you make of what he said or did not say today?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER ASST. U.S. ATTORNEY: Well, obviously, it was embarrassing, it was humiliating, and the senators seemed to take some pleasure in rubbing his face in it. But that's what you walk into when you won't acknowledge the truth.
The reason this all matters, this is more than just a semantic game. Because if you have a job, like the DNI or the Attorney General, part of your job is reckoning with truths, whether they're helpful or harmful, so that our government can react accordingly.
And I think Jay Clayton exposed himself as being -- let's remember, he is woefully unqualified to be the Director of National Intelligence. The only reason he seems OK is because the prior nominee, Bill Pulte, had zero experience. Jay Clayton has one year as head of the SDNY. Big job, not a national intelligence job, does not remotely equip you to be the DNI. And I think he's exposed himself as being completely unqualified for that position. Better by comparison than the first guy, but still unqualified.
COLLINS: Ameshia, what'd you make of it?
AMESHIA CROSS, FORMER OBAMA CAMPAIGN ADVISER, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, I think that one of the bigger takeaways here is the one around -- you know, Trump loves to throw around Trump derangement syndrome, and the biggest example of that is Trump himself and his acolytes who refuse to acknowledge the results of the 2020 election.
But to Elie's point. There's an excess of not being qualified, but he's not the first person that the President has nominated that was not qualified. So, we continue to see this happen over and over again. But the failure to answer basic questions and the ones that he did answer lack significant knowledge and proof points. That should give a lot of people pause.
COLLINS: Well, and a lot of people might look at this and say, Why does it matter what they say? 2020 is done. We've moved on. Trump has already won the election since then. He's now president.
But when Jay Clayton was asked about his predecessor, Tulsi Gabbard, his would-be predecessor if he's confirmed, Tulsi Gabbard, and when she was there at the site of that raid in Atlanta, to talk about its election results in 2020, this is how he answered that question.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OSSOFF: The first time you learned that Director Gabbard was present at that raid was in my office yesterday?
CLAYTON: It was the first time that, in my recollection, I've thought about it recently. Now, was I aware of it before?
OSSOFF: What?
CLAYTON: You -- I mean, you brought it to my attention yesterday.
OSSOFF: OK.
CLAYTON: I had not thought--
OSSOFF: So, you had not known until--
CLAYTON: I had not -- I had not thought about it until you brought it to my attention yesterday. OSSOFF: Your answers lack credibility.
WARNER: Even if you weren't aware, in preparation for this hearing, I would have thought, Hey, we got to be ready for the Gabbard questions.
CLAYTON: Yes, I -- look, I don't want to -- it just wasn't something that was on my mind before the preparation for this hearing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOUG HEYE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST, FORMER RNC COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Not a great moment. Not a great moment that we all got to see.
[21:10:00]
But I watched these hearings today, I spent a lot of time watching them, and thought about when I've worked to prep people for testifying before Congress, as recently as earlier this month. And what you do is you try and say, How are we going to limit damage as much as possible? And the politics here tell us what that damage is. Terrible moment to be a witness and not be able to answer those sort of fundamental questions.
But your audience is the President. And you want the President's support? You're going to contort yourself however you can so that you don't lose his support because you know that during that hearing, Donald Trump could sweep the leg out from under you, and your nomination is over. So they did, bizarrely as it looked, what they needed to do. And what we saw with Thom Tillis tells us why we expect he'll vote yes now.
CROSS: Well, I'm not convinced that he didn't know. I think that was an out-flat lie. However, he did not want them to ask multiple follow- up questions based on that knowledge.
And I think that by saying he didn't know, claiming ignorance to the fact that, All of us saw this on national television, it was run pretty widely at the time of it happening? There isn't a person in the world who will prep you -- and I prep people for congressional testimony as well -- who will prep you without understanding the types of questions that may come up. That was a pretty basic question. He didn't want to answer it. He didn't want to dig any deeper, so he claimed to not know.
COLLINS: Well because the question was -- before he was saying he didn't really know much about it. What Jon Ossoff was trying to get out there, who obviously is the Senator from Georgia, is If you're instructed to do something similar to that as the Director of National Intelligence, would you be on site for something like that?
Because Tulsi Gabbard was criticized, people saying, That is not the job of the Director of National Intelligence to be there in a law enforcement capacity.
HONIG: Exactly. It goes to Jay Clayton's conception of what that job as DNI entails. And to be on site of a search warrant, to have the DNI there is completely out of place, is completely ridiculous, and I think that would have been the natural follow-up, had he acknowledged that he remembered anything.
And one other thing about Jay Clayton. I don't know him. He took over the U.S. Attorney's office at SDNY a couple years after I left. But I know plenty of people there.
And the reputation of Jay Clayton is that he's a chameleon, that he goes by to get by, he goes along to get along, that he lacks the backbone to stand up for that office. He's not as over-the-top offensive as some other folks we've seen in high positions at DOJ, but he's not deeply respected in that office right now, and tears were not shed when he was nominated for this job, if he gets it someday.
COLLINS: As you watched Todd Blanche today, what did you make of how he testified compared to how we saw Pam Bondi testify, for example, in the past?
HEYE: Well, the volume was a lot lower, I think, to everybody's benefit. The Pam Bondi hearing was very, very loud.
COLLINS: I'm not sure he mentioned the Dow and what level it's at either.
HEYE: No. No.
And look, he had to do some convincing. And it looks like Senator Tillis from my home state of North Carolina was leaning in his direction. He did, I think, what he needed to do to make sure that Tillis was a yes-vote. So now we just have to watch John Cornyn. That'll then tell us everything.
COLLINS: Well, and the thing is, typically, this wouldn't really likely be up for debate. They've confirmed a lot more controversial nominees. But John Cornyn and Thom Tillis have nothing to lose here. And so, obviously the concern that John Cornyn has, over this Anti- Weaponization Fund, and what Todd Blanche testified about it today, seemed to be part of that. John Cornyn doesn't seem convinced, though, that it's actually really dead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CORNYN: Well, basically, he confirmed that it's not dead. It can't be changed without written consent of the parties. According to the settlement agreement. There is no written consent of the parties. And he agreed that it could be enforced as a matter of contract.
And it's not dead. It could be revived. And I think he confirmed that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I think that's a real question of how he's going to vote here.
CROSS: Yes, and I think that Senator Cornyn is right. The President himself has alluded to the fact that this could come up again. He's not admitting defeat here.
With that being said, Cornyn has absolutely nothing to lose. President Trump played his cards wrong, per usual, and he has created an enemy when he really needed that vote. John Cornyn is going to nail him to the wall, and then, you know, honestly, I don't think that he will vote in support because he doesn't really have a reason to. He's already out, come January.
HONIG: Hey, can I quickly just criticize our Auguste U.S. Senate for their performance today? There was so much focus--
COLLINS: Yes, Senator Honig.
(LAUGHTER)
HONIG: There was so much focus on this slush fund and the immunity deal, which is a terrible idea, a ridiculous idea, an idea that's currently dead, may come back to life, but it's not going to do vast harm to the American public.
At the expense of, there was very little time spent on the fact that Todd Blanche has presided over the weaponization of DOJ, that he's trying to use the power to lock people up, to put people behind bars based on who's favored or disfavored politically. That got one-tenth of the amount of attention as the weaponization fund today. They both deserved attention, but I would have flipped that. I thought -- I don't know why that's the big hold up.
COLLINS: You obviously know Todd Blanche and have talked about that experience of your relationship before.
There was a moment today in the hearing where he was asked, I believe, by a Republican senator, about his relationship with the President and how he would characterize it. It might have been one of the most standout moments of Todd Blanche's testimony, and this is what he said.
[21:15:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KENNEDY (R-LA): Are you and President Trump friends?
BLANCHE: I'm his lawyer -- was his lawyer, and now I'm the Deputy Attorney General.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I mean, that moment I saw a lot of Democrats pointing to today, where he said, I'm his lawyer -- was his lawyer.
HONIG: Right, it goes to how Todd Blanche views that job. It is a mantra of that job that you are the lawyer for the American public, not for the president.
And later on, there was this sort of deep philosophical exchange between Adam Schiff and Todd Blanche, and they said, Who are you, Todd Blanche? Are you the same Todd Blanche as before?
And Blanche said, I'm the same Todd Blanche as ever.
I don't know, that's like for the philosophical types and the psychological types. But I can tell you that the way he was taught to do the job is not the way he's done the job now. Because I was there when he was taught. He was taught that You are not, nobody in this department, is the President's lawyer. You are here to represent the people of the United States.
And that was a slip. You know, I sort of felt for him. We've all had slips. But I also think it was pretty telling. And he had to go back and whoop, catch himself: I was -- I am -- I was.
Yes, it was tough.
COLLINS: Doug--
HEYE: And I think, to Elie's point, Todd -- Donald Trump certainly views it, that you're his lawyer.
HONIG: Yes.
HEYE: And that's ultimately what's going to matter here.
COLLINS: Doug Heye. Ameshia Cross. Elie Honig. Great to have you all here tonight.
Up next. We have new reporting on what the President is apparently considering for the war with Iran, as they are once again striking Iran tonight. And meanwhile, the Defense Secretary says there is a new testosterone screening for military members.
Also later, we're going to talk to a survivor of Jeffrey Epstein's. Her thoughts on Todd Blanche's testimony today. As the Vice President says now, that the release of those files was mishandled by the Trump administration.
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We are following some breaking news tonight as the United States has now launched two waves of strikes on Iran today, marking the fifth straight day of attacks in a campaign that clearly is escalating tonight. The latest round started this afternoon, after Central Command said that it had launched a seven-hour wave of strikes this morning. So, two sets of strikes in one day.
As our sources tonight say that the President is now getting options for expanding military options in Iran, as it is actively keeping a grip on the Strait of Hormuz, where traffic is slowing. Officials tell us that the President is once again weighing taking Kharg Island, Iran's critical oil export hub, and also bombing nuclear sites that are connected to Iran's nuclear program.
While the President says he is not looking to negotiate with Iranians right now. That's what he said this morning.
This is what the Vice President, JD Vance, said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JD VANCE (R), U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: I don't know exactly where this is going to go, but I think fundamentally we are on the right trajectory.
What we're doing is a delicate diplomatic dance where we're using economic leverage points. We're using carrots and sticks. We're trying to talk to the pragmatists. And then, of course, when they commit acts of violence, we're responding to it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My source tonight is the Democratic Senator Cory Booker of New Jersey, who is a member of the Foreign Relations Committee.
I think some people might look at this bombing and say, Is this going to work this time?
What do you think?
SEN. CORY BOOKER (D-NJ): I mean, from Vietnam to Afghanistan, we've seen presidents just continue to double down on disastrous decisions.
He said that he was bringing us into war in February for specific aims. He has failed to get them at the negotiating table. He's failed to get them despite the bombing. And right now, this is a moment in America where we need to say, enough is enough. This President is failing in this endeavor, and Congress has a responsibility to hold him accountable for it.
COLLINS: When I asked the President, on Monday, if bombing Iran is just the new normal.
BOOKER: Yes.
COLLINS: I mean, he brought up the fact of how long Vietnam lasted. What does a comparison like that, in terms of how he's thinking of this in time -- in the timeframe, what does that tell you?
BOOKER: Well, if the measure he's using is Vietnam, that should scare everybody because that didn't turn out so great.
But what he is not admitting to the American public, which he has literally said, I don't care about the economic impact to Americans. He needs to own up to. This is costing every American.
It's costing us in gas prices and groceries. It's costing us in inflation. And it's costing us in the billions of dollars of taxpayer money he is doing as he exhausts our military stockpiles. It's costing us American lives. We've already seen multiple planes shot down in America. We've seen 14 American lives lost, hundreds of American soldiers injured. Every day he persists in this disastrous policy, people all across our country and in that theater are hurting, and he is a person refusing to accept the fact that he should never have gotten us into this war in the first place.
COLLINS: In the meantime, we got an announcement from the Defense Secretary, Pete Hegseth, today, about a new policy to test troops that are 30 years old and older for low testosterone.
I want you to listen to what Secretary Hegseth said about this today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: I'm authorizing a new screening program for testosterone deficiency for our service members, ensuring you have the right testosterone levels to operate at your absolute best. Those under 30 can voluntarily choose to get the test as well. If treatment is recommended, it's entirely your choice to receive testosterone replacement therapy. This initiative, it's not about artificial enhancement, it's about restoring and optimizing your natural capabilities.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Your thoughts on this new policy?
BOOKER: He just seems sick and -- and like, somebody, please wake me up from this dystopian nightmare, where we have such unserious people in some -- one of the most important positions, not just in America, one of the most important positions globally.
[21:25:00]
He is not a serious person. He's unfit for that office. He should have never got confirmed, and you see the disastrous reality of his leadership and what he's doing. This is ridiculous, and it should be mocked, and it's just another reason why we should remove him from office.
COLLINS: So you don't see any point in this new policy?
BOOKER: Again, the fact that we, in the midst of a disastrous war, have the Secretary of Defense doing things like this makes us a mockery, globally. This is ridiculous. It is unserious. He is not a serious person. He is unqualified to be leading the greatest defense forces on the planet Earth. And he has led us without strategy, without reason, into a quagmire in the Middle East, yet again. And now he's talking about testosterone treatment. It is ridiculous.
COLLINS: The qualifications of another nominee were under consideration today. That is Todd Blanche to be the Attorney General. You questioned him. And he was questioned about many things today, including the handling of the Jeffrey Epstein investigation.
And this is part of that for people who might have missed the hearing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): Will you meet with these 10 survivors? I'm asking you, on the record.
BLANCHE: If they have lawyers, as you know, I am prohibited from meeting directly with them.
BOOKER: Your claim that you can't meet with these victims because they're represented by counsel is utter nonsense. Counsel can be present, or a client can waive their right to have counsel. But you're a lawyer. You know this.
You said that they should meet with the FBI. All of these women have reported their crimes, decades ago. But yet, you won't meet with them. What you will do is meet with Ghislaine Maxwell.
Did your interview with Miss Maxwell lead to a single additional person being charged? Yes or no?
BLANCHE: No.
BOOKER: Did it lead to a single new investigation, yes or no?
BLANCHE: I can't talk about whether there's any investigation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: What did you make of those answers that you got?
BOOKER: That he has violated a bipartisan law when it comes to releasing the Epstein files. That when he did so, he again violated that law by releasing personal information, phone numbers, addresses, images of multiple women, re-traumatizing them and subjecting them to all kind of hate and harassment.
While he, at the same time, protected wealthy men and then raced to prison, after denying meetings with these women who were victims, but he raced to go meet with Ghislaine Maxwell, for two days, that resulted in nothing but her getting a cushier Camp Fed appointment that BOP, the Bureau of Prisons' own protocols say that she should not have been there.
So, who's this Justice Department serving? Clearly, it's serving the interests of a five-time convicted sex offender. Clearly, it's serving to defend powerful people in powerful places. And he is responsible for re-traumatizing and re-victimizing women who have had the courage to come forward and others. And so, that alone should be disqualifying to anybody to be in the highest office in the land, when you're breaking the law, in a bipartisan way, and so hurting the people that have been victimized by sex offenders.
COLLINS: Do you think he would make a better attorney general than Pam Bondi?
BOOKER: To me, that's not the question before the United States Congress. The question is, Is this man qualified for that job? This is not a partisan issue. Not only is this -- in this case, but--
COLLINS: And your answer is no, you don't think he's qualified?
BOOKER: He is clearly not qualified.
COLLINS: But do you think he'd be better than Pam Bondi?
BOOKER: Again, I'm not looking at the relative nature of him versus another person I didn't vote for. What makes him even more offensive to me is the fact that he has clearly used his time, as Deputy Attorney General and as acting Attorney General, to be the President's shield on things like the Epstein files, and his sword by going after Adam Schiff, Comey for seashells in the sand.
Again, this is it in the Trump administration: unserious people in really important jobs that are doing Trump's bidding, but hurting the American people.
COLLINS: Senator Cory Booker, thank you for joining us tonight.
BOOKER: Thank you for having me.
COLLINS: Appreciate your time.
Up next for us. A furious President Trump is overturning that pause we were just reporting on last night on ICE traffic stops. What our sources are telling us about why.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight, President Trump is overturning his own administration's decision to pause most traffic stops conducted by Immigration and Customs Enforcement, following those deadly shootings in Texas and in Maine.
Our sources say the President was furious over that change in policy, which the head of the Department of Homeland Security announced yesterday, and that his Border Czar defended as only temporary.
But sources tell us, my colleagues, that the President's top immigration officials, that includes the Homeland Security Secretary Markwayne Mullin, and Tom Homan, did not give the President a heads-up about this pause. And Trump grew angry, as he watched coverage, where prominent MAGA voices were suggesting that his administration was weakening its immigration enforcement.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE DAVIS, FOUNDER & PRESIDENT, ARTICLE III PROJECT: Markwayne Mullin instructed ICE to stop doing traffic stops because these left-wing activists, these Democrat senators, Susan Collins, is in his ear. This guy needs to stop being a wimp. He needs to stop being weak. He needs to stop being stupid. JOHNNY "JOEY" JONES, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: You can't let the fear of a bad headline, without an investigation, stop you from doing what the President has mandated ICE do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:35:00]
COLLINS: That coverage happened at 06:45 this morning.
The President wrote this online, ordering the pause to be overturned, saying, It won't happen on my watch.
My next source tonight is running to be Maine's Democratic Senate nominee. Troy Jackson is among those who are vying to replace Graham Platner on the ballot this November.
And thank you, sir, for being here tonight.
When you heard that the President had overturned this pause on most vehicle stops that were being carried out by ICE. What was your reaction?
TROY JACKSON, (D) MAINE SENATE CANDIDATE: Well, my reaction was, It's a little bit too late. On Monday, we lost a person here in Maine that was shot and killed, murdered by ICE, and stopping traffic stops is going to do nothing to bring that person back.
ICE needs to be dismantled and get out of Maine. I mean, they literally had the wrong person that they shot right in the street, here in Biddeford. Some -- a 26-year-old man, had a 3-year-old daughter, and was just going to work. And that's what we have in this country right now, just a rogue agency that has no clue what they're doing, has a mandate to stop black and brown people.
COLLINS: Senator Susan Collins is obviously who you are trying to unseat in your state, if you are the Democratic nominee. She also agrees that the pause on these stops should continue. She believes officers should be wearing body cameras.
Where is the difference in y'all's positions on this?
JACKSON: Well, the difference is that I don't believe that they should be here at all.
I mean, we had them back after Minnesota. I mean, the two murders in Minnesota. We had them show up here in Maine, pulling people out of their vehicles. I mean, in one case, they actually pulled a Portland police officer out of their own vehicle. All these people had no due process. Their rights were violated, and so much so that the Boston judges actually said that the cases were falsified, all the records were falsified.
You know, Collins said that she got ICE out of Maine during that period. Well, here they are once again, and now we have someone that's been murdered here in our streets. So, Collins' concern and all that stuff doesn't do much for me because she let them have a blank check, funded them, and here they are, running rogue once again, and they need to be dismantled, they need to be gone. They're not law enforcement. They're a renegade agency that I don't see a benefit of.
COLLINS: If you dismantle ICE, do you think it should be replaced with something else? What would you like to see happen?
JACKSON: Well, I mean, I think Customs and Border Patrol does a fine job, here in Maine. Putting more effort into that, I think, would be better than what we have right now.
We have a bunch of untrained people going around, with this mandate that if people don't comply, in their minds, they can just shoot them. And that's not law enforcement. I mean, we have great law enforcement in the state that does all kinds of great things for the people here, but you don't have to be worried about being killed by them at any second of the day.
COLLINS: Does it make any sense to you why those agents weren't wearing body cameras when obviously -- you know, the White House has been arguing, Well, Democrats shut down the government, DHS went unfunded. But obviously, they had gotten a lot of funding, last year, in the Big Beautiful Bill. Does it make sense to you why they weren't wearing body cameras this week?
JACKSON: Well, it makes sense to me that for an agency that does want to do whatever they think they have to, do whatever they want as far as pulling people over without warrants, without any legal reason, they wouldn't want body cameras because they don't want to show that, that that's what's happening. That's what happens when you have a rogue agency. I mean, they do rogue things. And not having body cameras on is clearly so that nobody sees how they're operating.
But here in Maine, I mean we're watching it every day, before, watching how people were taken away from their jobs, taken away from schools and things like that. I mean, we're seeing it constantly, and that's why people are so frustrated and upset by it. I mean, these are, for the most -- well, no -- I mean, we got good people here in Maine that are being dragged off and that's just got to stop. I mean, it's got to stop for all -- for everyone.
COLLINS: Troy Jackson, thank you for joining us tonight.
JACKSON: Thank you for having me.
COLLINS: My next source here this evening served as the Homeland Security Secretary under President Obama.
And Jeh Johnson, it's great to have you back here on THE SOURCE.
Because we've talked so much about ICE and DHS, especially ever since what happened in Minneapolis.
JEH JOHNSON, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY UNDER PRES. OBAMA: Right.
[21:40:00] COLLINS: And it's a new person running it. Markwayne Mullin is now in charge. The fact that they announced yesterday that there was going to be a pause in most of these vehicle stops. Today, Trump says he overturns it 24 hours later.
Does that sound like they're on the same page, as the administration is insisting, to you?
JOHNSON: No, obviously not, Kaitlan.
Look, if I were still Secretary, and I'm not, trying to govern in this kind of circumstance, I would have directed that all of ICE Enforcement and Removal Operations basically go back to basics in their training, not just a pause on vehicle stops.
It is so apparent to me, watching the videos, given what we know about Minneapolis, what we know about Houston, what we know now about Maine, that too many of these agents are inadequately trained. They're inadequately trained in vehicle stops. They're inadequately trained when it comes to tactics in de-escalation of a tense situation.
Every law enforcement officer, whether it's state, local, or federal, goes through -- should go through tactics in de-escalation. Whether you're the FBI, the NYPD, or the police force in Montgomery, Alabama.
And it is apparent to me that these officers on the streets in our -- of our cities are inadequately trained on this. It's dangerous. It's lethal. People are dying unnecessarily as a result. There needs to be a back-to-basics on this.
And I had hoped that Markwayne Mullin would take that approach after what happened in January. I still have hope for him, so long as the President doesn't intervene and reverse their decisions.
COLLINS: But what happens? I mean, that is literally what the President just did.
JOHNSON: Yes, I saw your report. With all due respect to cable news, one should not make policy based on what you see in cable news. And leave it to the Department of Homeland Security, the professionals in law enforcement, to bring this agency back to basic. It's an agency that's lost its way, in my opinion. I don't recognize it anymore. I was Secretary, 10 years ago. Did we get everything right? No, of course not. But what I see now is a pattern of rogue behavior, inadequately trained.
Apparently, according to the reports, the officer who shot and killed Mr. Guerrero in Maine had been on the force for less than a year and only had several weeks of training. Typically, a gun-carrying law enforcement officer has months of training before they're allowed on the streets with the civilian population.
COLLINS: Yes, and obviously that's now been reversed.
When you look at this, and you hear -- the body camera, obviously footage would help a lot here, in terms of what you could see from the officers--
JOHNSON: Absolutely.
COLLINS: --in the agents' perspective.
I want you to hear what Tom Homan said when I asked him why they weren't wearing them, since this was a policy that Kristi Noem said they were going to be implementing months ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM HOMAN, TRUMP BORDER CZAR: As soon as the Train-the-Trainer is done, the trainers will get the cameras and they'll deploy them as quick as possible.
COLLINS: But don't you see that to be extremely urgent, given right now--
HOMAN: It is urgent. We're -- they're moving as quick as they possibly -- soon as they had funding they bought them.
COLLINS: --we do not have video of these situations beyond witnesses?
HOMAN: As soon as they had funding they bought them.
COLLINS: But it's been two months since April.
HOMAN: If the Democrats wouldn't have shut down the government, it would have been a lot quicker.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Do you think that's a fair response and fair argument from the administration?
JOHNSON: Well, if there was any law enforcement agency that needs to have body cameras, it's ICE ERO, for their protection and the protection of the civilian population.
I know Tom Homan. He used to work for me. He's a professional. But I don't accept that excuse. As you pointed out a minute ago, lots of money flowed into DHS through the Big Beautiful Bill, it was multi- year money. We could have purchased body cameras with that money, I'm quite certain, for every single member of ICE ERO.
COLLINS: Secretary Jeh Johnson, it's always great to have your expertise in this area. So, thank you for joining us tonight.
JOHNSON: Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next. You heard from those hearings on Capitol Hill today, where both of President Trump's nominees were asked also about an investigation into Jeffrey Epstein and that ranch he had in New Mexico. A survivor of Jeffrey Epstein's who says she was abused there is joining me, right after this break.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: As President Trump's nominees to become the next Attorney General and the next Director of National Intelligence faced questioning from lawmakers today. Both suggested that they are working with officials in New Mexico on an investigation into Jeffrey Epstein's actions at the ranch that he previously owned in that state.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLANCHE: Yes, we're continuing to work with -- with them, and yes.
CLAYTON: That request is for unredacted documents. My folks, I think, as we speak, are seeking dialog with the Attorney General, to see if we can reach an accommodation that is consistent with those protective orders.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Here's why that testimony matters. It comes after we heard from the New Mexico Attorney General's Office, arguing, basically, the opposite of that yesterday, saying that the Southern District of New York, which is what Jay Clayton currently runs, said that they will not cooperate with their investigation.
The Attorney General in New Mexico accused the Justice Department, last week, of withholding, what they described as, critical information related to Jeffrey Epstein's Zorro Ranch. That is where some survivors say that he sexually abused them, including my next guest, Annie Farmer, who was 16-years-old when Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell lured her to that secluded estate.
[21:50:00]
And Annie is back here with us tonight.
And thank you for being here. Because I know it's always a difficult subject when you come on to talk about this, but it's really important, and especially given what we heard today.
I wonder if those answers from Todd Blanche or Jay Clayton reassure you at all.
ANNIE FARMER, JEFFREY EPSTEIN SURVIVOR: Not at all.
It's good to see you, Kaitlan.
Yes, I felt that Todd Blanche's testimony was really disingenuous. I have been in touch with the New Mexico's Attorney General's Office as recently as today, and I'm hearing that they really are continuing to obstruct the investigation. And so, the idea that they're working with them, I think they said something like they've provided 31 pages of either previously publicly available or redacted documents. That's certainly not cooperation. And it's also troubling that they are hiding behind survivor protection, when we've made it very clear that we want an investigation, and they have made it clear that survivor protection has not been a priority for them in the way that they have released the documents.
COLLINS: And I mean, just in terms of the survivors. 10 were at Blanche's confirmation hearing today. Many are women you've come to know from y'all's brave testimony coming forward about this.
When Todd Blanche was asked about meeting with them, he said the department will work with their attorneys and that the Justice Department, quote, will never not talk to victims.
I wonder what you thought of that answer.
FARMER: Yes, again, it just did not feel like really an honest answer.
I know, when I've been on this program previously, I've shared that it was almost exactly a year ago that I wrote directly to Todd Blanche. At that time, he was Deputy Attorney General. And I was really concerned about him meeting with Ghislaine Maxwell. I was trying to understand what was going on in that case.
And one of the things I said in that letter is that from the beginning, in 1996, when my sister, Maria Farmer, reported these criminals, moving into the 2006 investigation and onward, one of the problems that has been repeatedly we've seen happening over and over is not conferring with victims. And so, I said, Please do not commit this error again. And that was a year ago.
We have certainly been available. We asked for a meeting ourselves, not just with some attorneys, but with us, and that has not happened. So, I just -- it does not seem like he's being honest in his responses.
COLLINS: There was something the Vice President said today about how they handled all of this, that I thought really stood out. He was talking to Joe Rogan, and he said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VANCE: If people want to say we mishandled the Epstein release, guilty. We did mishandle, especially the communications of it.
JOE ROGAN, HOST, "THE JOE ROGAN EXPERIENCE" PODCAST: What do you think should have been done?
VANCE: I think that we should have just dropped everything at the very beginning. And like, obviously, it takes a little time to review the stuff, to find the stuff, to redact things where you have victims and so forth. But we should have just done it as quickly as possible.
ROGAN: But--
VANCE: Again, like, I say this with all candor, like, we absolutely screwed up the comms of the Epstein files, like, we just did. But do I think the reason we screwed up the comms is because we were trying to hide something? No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: What was it like for you to hear that?
FARMER: I think that it is -- it's important that they are owning that there was -- there were issues with this. That's the first time I've heard an official actually really do that. But I think it's pretty hollow if there's not follow-up. They are continuing to, I guess, in his words, screw up because, we know there's still files that aren't being released.
One of the things that came out this week is that there was a FOIA request by a journalist, Allison Gill, about training videos that exist around how to redact certain people's names, including Trump's name. The Department of Justice confirmed that those exist, and yet that should have been included in the release, that kind of information, and we're not seeing it.
So, I think that -- you know, they still haven't even had any kind of public acknowledgement of the mistakes that were made around not following up with my sister Maria Farmer's report in 1996, you know. So, they can make these kind of general statements that, We messed up. But if they're not actually specifically owning up and trying to do better, then it doesn't -- it doesn't bring us much comfort.
COLLINS: Yes, it would be great to hear from someone and look into why your sister's complaint was ignored.
Annie Farmer, I'm always grateful to have you here and joining us. Thank you for coming on tonight.
FARMER: Of course. Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next. It is time for Source Code. We give you a number at the center of a story that is in the news. Can you figure out what it is? Tonight's Source Code? 1. We'll be back in just a moment with that answer.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Tonight's Source Code is 1. Might have been hard to guess, but that is as in $1 because that will soon be available not just as a bill, but also apparently as a coin, and it's going to have President Trump's face on it.
[22:00:00]
The Treasury Secretary, Scott Bessent, announced that the U.S. Mint will soon begin making these $1 gold coins to mark the nation's 250th anniversary, in his latest move to honor the President for this occasion. It's unclear tonight when exactly they're going to be available or how much it's going to cost to make them. But Secretary Bessent is dismissing concerns that this design is illegal by featuring a living president's face on currency.
Thanks so much for joining us here on THE SOURCE tonight.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts right now.
