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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Conflict Expands As Houthis Claim Attacks On Ships In Red Sea; Reps Massie & Khanna Introduce Second Epstein Files Bill; AOC Leading In Latest 2028 NH Presidential Primary Poll. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired July 22, 2026 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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RANDI KAYE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: -- the medical examiner can update his findings as he gathers more information, the family's attorney says. And the investigation is ongoing. Both the authorities and the family are asking anyone with information or possibly even video from that day to contact them.
John.
JOHN KING, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Randi Kaye, thank you very much.
And the news continues. "THE SOURCE" starts now.
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Tonight, the President threatens bridges and power plants in Iran, as one of Tehran's proxies widens the war.
I'm Brianna Keilar in for Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
As we come on the air, the war with Iran is expanding to a new front, with a second vital waterway now under threat. Iranian-backed Houthi rebels in Yemen claim to have struck two Saudi oil tankers in the Red Sea. Saudi Arabia did not immediately comment on the Houthis' claim, and CNN cannot independently verify them. But GPS tracking services do show vessels turning around to avoid passing through this second crucial corridor for global commerce.
Tonight is the 12th night in a row that the U.S. has dropped bombs on Iran. And President Trump is making menacing threats about attacking bridges and power plants, infrastructure used by Iranian civilians. But the renewed bombing campaign has left experts skeptical that it will actually drive Iran back to the negotiating table.
So then, what will? What is the plan? If that cycle sounds familiar, so will the President's remarks today about the war, a war, remember, that he confidently proclaimed in early March would last just four to six weeks.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: This is with this skirmish we have with the Islamic Republic of Iran, and I call it that because let me tell you, they're getting hit so hard, and they want to make a deal.
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: But I say, they're not ready to make a deal. Because every time they make a deal, they want to change it and everything. They're not ready. They'll be ready very soon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: Define soon because President Trump has been saying Iran wants to make a deal since March. He has said it dozens of times.
Will Iran really be ready to end this war very soon? Polls show Americans are already there. The vast majority don't think the war is worth it.
And we witnessed the cost of the war today, the human toll, at Dover Air Force Base, so did President Trump, as he and top government officials witnessed this: the dignified transfer of four American service members killed in action in the Middle East over the weekend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: They are indeed great heroes actually. They said, and all of them said very strongly, we can't let, we cannot let Iran have a nuclear weapon. They won't have a nuclear weapon. So we're going to honor them. And it's one of the hardest things to do, for me, it's one of the hardest things to do as a president. But has to be done.
REPORTER: As we go to honor these soldiers, do you have an update on the investigation as to how they were killed in Jordan?
TRUMP: No, they're doing that. That'll be released. You know what--
REPORTER: There was a report that it was Iran targeting barracks--
TRUMP: I don't know. Well, they're going to pay a big price. They're getting -- they're getting -- they're being decimated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: Of note, Trump has also suggested the war is almost over dozens of times, and it's usually followed by threats to attack Iran again.
We begin tonight with our bipartisan congressional sources. We have Republican Congressman Thomas Massie of Kentucky, and Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna of California.
Gentlemen, welcome. Thanks for being here tonight.
Congressman Khanna. The Houthis now claiming to have attacked these Saudi tankers in the Red Sea. Could this now be a two-front war? REP. RO KHANNA (D-CA): We need to end it. We passed, in the House of Representatives, a congressional resolution to end the war. The Senate has passed a resolution like that. Food prices are up. Gas prices are up. And we saw the ultimate sacrifice of American service members getting killed. This president needs to stop the war, and we need to have a diplomatic solution involving the EU, involving China, just like President Obama did. But we cannot continue.
KEILAR: Do you worry it's expanding here, Congressman Massie? How do you see it?
REP. THOMAS MASSIE (R-KY): That's always been a threat, I mean, and I think that's what Israel's wanted. They've tried to expand it to Lebanon, but they're happy to let us now deal with the consequences of an expanding war.
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That's the first thing that Iran did is they attacked all of the countries that have our bases within them, and now it's gone to another tight point in the ocean where -- it's going to hurt, frankly, farmers in Kentucky. We're seeing fuel prices, we're seeing fertilizer prices go up as a consequence of this. And that's a danger that Trump knew about, I think he was warned before he got into this war.
KEILAR: The IDF has actually been handing off some villages in southern Lebanon to the Lebanese military. We're watching that very carefully to see what continues to happen there.
But Congressman Massie, one of your Republican colleagues, is now saying that she's prepared to rein in the President's war powers. This was Congresswoman Nancy Mace today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. NANCY MACE (R-SC): Need to bring a new War Powers Resolution up. I was doing the math the other day, and we're at almost six months. And just because you stop a war and then restart it a few days later doesn't really mean anything to the Constitution.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: So of note, she was not among the four House Republicans who crossed party lines last month. She's also not coming back to Congress. You're not coming back to Congress. That makes her somewhat unencumbered by some political considerations for sure here. Are you actually hearing more support for this position? What are you hearing?
MASSIE: I think there is more support. And like Ro said, we've already passed a concurrent resolution in the House and the Senate. The executive branch is breaking the law right now because they're in defiance of that concurrent War Powers Resolution. They claim that the law that we're asserting is not constitutional. But that's never been established by the Supreme Court.
They're also required to come to us after 90 days, and we're well past 90 days. Now, the President's lawyers acknowledge this reality because they pretended to stop the war at the 90-day point, and then start it again effectively at the 91-day point. It's all a bunch of hocus- pocus. They're in violation of the law. They're in violation of the war powers.
And I think you will see more Republicans come on board to War Powers Resolutions if we bring them up again. But frankly -- and I'd be happy to vote on one every day, but I don't think we need to. We've already passed a concurrent resolution in the House and the Senate.
KEILAR: You passed one last month, I mean -- what ultimately is the real effect of it?
KHANNA: Well, first of all, I could just say about Thomas, he was opposed to this war before he lost his seat.
MASSIE: Yes.
KHANNA: We both led--
KEILAR: Before he -- yes. And that's an important point.
KHANNA: --the War Powers Resolution, and it was on that and Epstein he was literally a profile in courage. I mean, he had $30 million spent against him. Because he had the guts to say this war was illegal and not in America's interest. Because he had the guts to call for the release of the Epstein files.
And this president ran on ending foreign wars. Look, just today, we have a resolution to spend $60 billion on this war. Now, Thomas probably would take that $60 billion and pay down the national debt.
MASSIE: Yes.
KHANNA: I would take that $60 billion and give free child care or free college. But you know what the American people don't want? They don't want the $60 billion going in a war in Iran.
KEILAR: The President said this today. And this is, as we certainly understand in polling how Americans do feel about this war, they're opposed to it. But this is how the President characterized how they feel about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Well, Americans aren't against the war. A poll -- a poll just came out. Americans don't want high gasoline prices, but they're not against the war. That just came out loud and clear in a poll. Nobody wants Iran to have a nuclear weapon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: As I mentioned, we know that Americans, 68 percent of them, say the war is not worth it.
You have your differences, as you put it. But I wonder what you are hearing, Congressman Massie, from Republicans in your district. Are they saying what President Trump says they are saying?
MASSIE: Well, both sides can be right about this, but we're polling different people. If you poll the American public in general, there's not support for this war. But if you just poll Republican primary voters, there's still 70 percent support for this war. I've polled it five times in my own congressional race, and it did. It's part of what cost me an election. It probably cost me at least 10 points on the ballot to be against this war in a Republican primary.
So, I think the President, maybe his advisers are showing him some kind of primary poll. But here's the reality: we're almost past the primaries. There's one or two states that still have primaries to go. And after that, the Republican Party is going to be exposed on this issue in the November races.
KEILAR: The war is less popular than other significantly unpopular wars, like Iraq and Afghanistan. I think that might surprise some people. The question is: Are people as motivated? Are they paying as much attention to this? And I wonder what you think about that. It seems that perhaps they may not be. Of course, we still have some time before the election.
KHANNA: It doesn't surprise me it's more unpopular. Because Afghanistan, the initial strikes, of course, were after we were hit on 9/11. And while I opposed the Iraq War, many Americans thought that that was some response to 9/11 in the way that President Bush framed it. Here, American people just voted to end these foreign wars.
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And there's no reason to be going into Iran. They haven't gotten rid of the enriched uranium. They have the same capability. And the President, ironically, is now giving nuclear energy to Saudi Arabia. So, this idea that he wants to try to keep nuclear weapons or nuclear enriched uranium out of the Middle East is just not true.
MASSIE: If I may add one thing, the consequences of this war are very unpopular. $5 a gallon diesel, $4 a gallon gasoline. And in fact, that's evidenced by today, in addition to the $60 million slush fund that's in the Republican budget reconciliation, is a $12 billion bailout for farmers that was necessitated because of this war.
The price of fertilizer went up, the price of fuel, and then because of the tariffs, the price of farm equipment went up. So, those things that had been caused by the war are unpopular. So, when you poll this, people may not be putting both of those things together.
KEILAR: Yes, farmers are certainly feeling that traffic that is not going through the Strait.
Congressmen, if you could please stick around for me, we have much more to discuss.
Because next, these Congressmen tell us about their latest proposal to get justice for Epstein survivors. And then later, a new poll out of New Hampshire. Who tops the list of potential 2028 Democratic presidential nominees? No, it's not too soon to talk about it, and it might not be who you think.
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEILAR: Congressmen Thomas Massie and Ro Khanna back with us now. They are the bipartisan team behind the Epstein Transparency Act from April of last year.
And you're now proposing a sequel in this, right? So, what's new in this bill, and how is it different from your previous bill that the President signed into law?
MASSIE: Well, what we've noticed is the DOJ is just uninterested in prosecuting any of the men who've been exposed from the records.
But we saw an attorney general in New Mexico who is ready to prosecute the crimes at Zorro Ranch, but he can't get the DOJ to cooperate. So, what we did is we put in this bill, the ability, the special ability for the Attorney General of New Mexico, or any attorney general from any state, to get the documents from the DOJ, so that they can prosecute the crimes that the DOJ won't.
KEILAR: So, is that in a way a fix, as you see it, to the first bill?
KHANNA: We didn't anticipate that the Department of Justice wouldn't release the files and wouldn't investigate or prosecute. So now, we need to empower state attorney generals.
But you know, one reason I was thinking, why did this break through? Why is this broken through for over a year? And my view is, it's about integrity, it's about character.
People in this country want moral renewal. They see the corruption, and then they're seeing this group of rich and powerful people abusing, raping, trafficking young girls, and getting away with it, and they say, What's happened to our country? And they sided with these survivors who were enormously courageous. And they appreciated that two people could come across the aisle to build a coalition to actually stand up for American values.
KEILAR: How do you see -- right now, there's multiple court cases, right, that are moving about, whether it's redactions or it's about getting more documents to be released. How do you see that effort working alongside this one of yours?
MASSIE: Well, that's another thing we did with this bill. We made it easier to get in front of a court. Survivors, they can go to their U.S. district courts and bring cases against the DOJ if they don't release the documents to the survivors, which they're supposed to be doing.
And even members of Congress now, we can go to the court and litigate this. Because there are clear examples that where the DOJ is still withholding files or overly redacting things beyond what the Epstein Files Transparency Act allows, and just getting in front of a judge is so hard to have standing. So, that's another thing that we added to this bill.
KEILAR: So Todd Blanche, who is very much hoping to be confirmed as Attorney General, he's the acting A.G., said that releasing more materials would actually harm Epstein victims and the government, and he's offered to share additional material behind closed doors with a judge.
Why isn't that enough?
KHANNA: Who are you going to believe? Todd Blanche or the survivors themselves? He refused to meet with the survivors or survivors' lawyers.
And actually, a federal judge has ruled. Katie Phang brought a lawsuit under the original Epstein Transparency Act, and the judge has ruled that Todd Blanche needs to release the remaining files, and he has been in defiance of already a federal judge's order.
But the absurdity here is every other nation is prosecuting people, former prime ministers, former princes, former ambassadors. Only here in the United States of America, are we not having any investigation or prosecution.
KEILAR: He has met with some victims. That was a demand of senators -- Republican senators. Do you have any hope that anything comes out of that?
KHANNA: Well, he needs to meet with the survivors and their lawyers, the large group.
And if he's serious about it, there are already people in the files who should, at the very least, be investigated. People who have serious allegations, like Leon Black, who, by the way, still has buildings named after him at Dartmouth. People who have serious allegations, like Les Wexner. Why is there no investigation? And there are 3 million files that are still released.
And this is what I say about integrity. It's not Republican, Democrat, Independent. Since when has this country said that abusing young girls is OK, and that if you have allegations about that, we're going to turn a blind eye?
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KEILAR: As you said, you feel that you paid for this, and not just this, but -- the Iran war, your support for that. This really did put you as a target of the President's. And of the Republicans who did back this last Epstein bill, only one, Lauren Boebert, has the chance to actually be--
MASSIE: Be re-elected. Right.
KEILAR: --be maybe re-elected in this, right?
So, have you heard from any Republicans who say they'd support this bill?
MASSIE: A lot are scared based on what happened to me. Look, I was the subject of the biggest, most expensive congressional primary in the history of this country. $30 million was marshaled against me. Fake artificial intelligence-created ads run against me with fake claims. And that really, I do think, unfortunately, has silenced a lot of Republican members of Congress.
But I can tell you this: Lauren Boebert, Nancy Mace, and Marjorie Taylor Greene, the three brave women who joined us, they don't regret it for a second. Even though Marjorie's no longer in Congress and Nancy's not coming back, they would all do it again.
KEILAR: So, let's talk about the timeline on this. Because it took a long time last time. It took four months. Speaker Johnson delayed this, and ultimately the pressure built and built and built, and it got through. But it took four months.
If that happens again, you're talking about after the midterms. I mean, do you have any sense that this is something either party wants to be debating at this point in time, in the final months before the midterm elections? Do you have a sense that the Speaker would let this proceed?
MASSIE: Look, it's a political liability to the Republican Party, but it's one that they created. Trump could fix it. He could direct his attorney general to start prosecuting crimes. That's the only way you can fix this.
And then just to come clean. I mean, we saw -- I believe Melania Trump, when she said Epstein did not act alone. I believe JD Vance when he said that Epstein was connected to U.S. and Israeli intelligence. And if they believe what they're saying, then Republicans should just come clean, produce all the documents, and start prosecuting men.
KHANNA: This isn't going away. Either we're going to, in September, get the votes, have a discharge petition, and pass it, or when the Democrats take the House, we're going to pass this and empower state attorney generals. And until we have an attorney general who's actually going to investigate and prosecute, the American people are not going to be silent.
And what happened to Thomas is absolutely disgusting, and I say this as someone who disagrees with about 90 percent of where he stands. But if you can have someone have $30 million spent against them, and the forces of the billionaires marshaled against them and have character attacks because they dared to defy the President and their own party on two issues? Then what's happening to American democracy?
People want more independent-minded. We don't work for the President. And we don't work for billionaire donors. You're supposed to go work for your constituents. KEILAR: Todd Blanche has not been confirmed yet, but it appears that he very well may be, even as there are some Republican senator holdouts, Thom Tillis, John Cornyn of Texas. And I wonder what your message is for them, as they are considering whether they're going to vote to confirm him as attorney general.
MASSIE: My message would be: don't confirm him until he starts investigating.
Look, they've closed -- they announced they closed all the investigations. Now, that was under Pam Bondi.
KEILAR: But that's not the -- that's not the demand. I mean, they've made demands of him.
MASSIE: Correct.
KEILAR: It seems that perhaps it's a little more with John Cornyn. He hasn't quite met what he has demanded.
But I mean, what do you think? You know what their demands are. You know what he's done.
MASSIE: Right. Well, with respect to Tillis' request or demand that he meet with the victims. That did happen, and so maybe he's checked that box. But the victims aren't satisfied with that meeting. And that's my metric for any of the redactions, for any of the meetings, and for any of the prosecutions. If the victims aren't satisfied, if the survivors aren't made whole, then I'm not satisfied.
KEILAR: Congressman Massie. Congressman -- oh, Khanna you wanted to say something? Please.
KHANNA: Well, the irony is that Republicans are the party of listening to victims of crime. And here that -- Todd Blanche is not giving a single answer on why some of these people aren't being prosecuted or having any investigation against them. He owes the country, if he's not going to bring the case, explain to the country, have a press conference, and let's go person by person and why he thinks they should not have an investigation or prosecution.
KEILAR: Congressman Khanna. Congressman Massie. Thank you so much to both of you for coming into the studio for this. Appreciate it.
MASSIE: Thanks, Brianna.
KHANNA: Thank you.
KEILAR: Up next. New York's Mayor admits that he cannot have Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu arrested the next time that he's in the city. But he's calling on the federal government to do it.
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR ZOHRAN MAMDANI, (D) NEW YORK CITY, NEW YORK STATE: As mayor, New York City would arrest Benjamin Netanyahu. This is a city that -- our values are in line with international law. It's time that our actions are also.
I think that our city should uphold the warrants the International Criminal Court issues, whether it be for Benjamin Netanyahu or Vladimir Putin.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: That is a promise that then-candidate Zohran Mamdani made repeatedly on the campaign trail.
But now, the New York mayor is conceding he doesn't actually have the power to have Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu arrested.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAMDANI: Benjamin Netanyahu is a war criminal, the architect of a horrific genocide against the Palestinian people.
There is a reason the International Criminal Court issued a warrant for his arrest.
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As human beings, we have spent generations building a shared understanding that there are crimes so grave they offend all of humanity. Anyone, with their eyes, with their heart, with their conscience, should recognize the devastation he has wrought and understand that he belongs before a court of law.
It is clear that we do not have the independent legal authority to enforce this warrant. The federal government, however, does, and I call on them to join the ICC and execute this warrant.
And I want to be equally clear: Benjamin Netanyahu is not welcome in New York City, nor is any other war criminal at large.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: President Trump already made clear, the federal government will not be arresting Netanyahu, saying in a post, he Will not be arrested in any way, shape, or form while in the U.S.
My next source ran the Democratic Party of Wisconsin and came in second in the race for Chair of the DNC. Ben Wikler is the author of the new book, "This Is the Plan: How to End America's Meltdown and Save Democracy."
So, I wonder what you think here. Is this the conversation you want Democrats to be having right now and ahead of 2028?
BEN WIKLER, FORMER CHAIR, DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF WISCONSIN, AUTHOR, "THIS IS THE PLAN": Well, it's currently 2026. There is a huge amount of very legitimate concern about the actions of the Netanyahu government, and there are people with deep concern about this who elected Zohran Mamdani in New York. Obviously, there's a giant range of opinions. But part of being the city where all the world leaders come is that sometimes municipal officials speak to international issues.
I will say, in many parts of the country, the central issues right now for many voters are focused on affordability, on whether they can afford to find housing, to find that -- for the medicine that they need. Those are things that also came up in the New York mayor's race.
And I think what's happening right now is that Donald Trump has supported this and is perpetrating this war in Iran that is driving up costs for everyone. So, the fact that Donald Trump and Bibi Netanyahu are kind of joined at the hip on every one of the wars that they embark upon together is actually something that affects every American, as well as affects the moral conscience of people that are concerned about people who die in those wars, which we now know includes U.S. service members.
And I do think that Trump's foreign policy because, of its impact at home, especially, is going to have a significant impact on races at all level, this November.
In my book, I argue, it's critical to focus on races at every level of the ballot because all of them wind up affecting things like who becomes President of the United States, and I'm grateful for the chance to join you to talk about all that.
KEILAR: Yes, so -- but this is very divisive for Democrats. Incredibly so. Incredibly destructive to see how divisive it is in the party.
Let's listen to what Congressman Josh Gottheimer said about Mayor Mamdani.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JOSH GOTTHEIMER (D-NJ): The Mayor is clearly obsessed with this issue. He should probably be a little more obsessed with making sure that his city is running well and that he's picking up the trash and fixing the potholes.
Obviously, he's a Democratic Socialist. He's not a Democrat, he's a socialist, Mamdani. And we know that the whole socialist movement is attempting to hijack the Democratic Party, and many of their values are not our values.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: I mean, that's pretty harsh there. Do you agree that there's no room in the Democratic Party for Democratic Socialists?
WIKLER: I think the Democratic Party -- tent, and that goes from left to, at this point, many center-right Republicans who feel that the MAGA movement has gone completely off the deep end. The Republican Party has become a tent with a single tentpole named Donald Trump. And as long as you support him, you can be as far as you could possibly get to the right, and you are welcome in that tent. But say one thing critical of Donald Trump's policies, even as they wreak havoc on Americans across the nation, you're expelled from the GOP.
So, the Democratic -- former Republicans who wish that their own party would return to sanity, and it welcomes people to the left of most Democrats. Because it's going to take a united front to defeat the greatest concentration of wealth and power that the country has ever seen, that is bent, at this moment, on ripping off regular Americans and breaking the chain of democracy that connects what the government does from what the public wants.
I think we're in a moment, right now, where people feel a legitimate sense of crisis on so many different fronts. And I speak tonight from Boston, my book tour. But in my home city of Madison, there are people grieving and greatly concerned right now. There was a police shooting in Madison, Wisconsin, that we're just learning the facts about.
There are so many folks across the country who feel that there's something fundamentally wrong, and in my book, I call that America's meltdown. And I think to solve that meltdown, we have to fix democracy itself, so that people can choose leaders, and those leaders can actually pass policies that make people's lives better.
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KEILAR: You also say in your book that Democrats can often suffer from what you call shiny object syndrome, meaning they're just too focused on, like a longshot charismatic candidate who's at the top of the ticket, instead of smaller, more consequential races. You sort of alluded to this a little bit here.
But what shiny objects do you see distracting Democrats right now?
WIKLER: Well, I think, right now, there's these shiny objects of contested Democratic primaries, sometimes in very blue, typically very, very blue places, that are far afield from the question of how particular state governments are going to run, whether they will be able to deliver for the public or whether they will continue lurching to the right.
If you think about the big tent of the Democratic Party, it includes Rob Sand and Mary Peltola, who are running campaigns that would be very different from what you see in a New York City, and there's space for all those different folks. The uniting concern is to make the government work for working people instead of for people like Elon Musk, who want to rip off the public and stuff the proceeds in their own pockets.
And I think the opportunity that Democrats have in this moment, when everyone who's concerned about the cost of living, the cost of gas, of groceries, has an option that is not in the MAGA tent, but instead is devoted to their concerns. I think there's an opportunity for Democrats to win at every level of government this fall. In my book, I talk about what every individual person can do, how people can get involved and volunteer and donate in the ways that have the highest impact, and how, as we learned in my state, that was rigged by a group of folks on the far-right, gerrymandered maps, suppressed votes, union busting. The same things Trump is doing nationally right now. We fought and organized our way out by focusing on races like state supreme court races that normally get no attention at all.
And to bring it back to Elon Musk. He saw how important this was. He came to my state. He spent $56 million to buy the state Supreme Court seat, and Wisconsin said, Absolutely not. Our state is not for sale. We won by 10 percentage points, and he was booted out of the White House the next day.
So, that says to me, no matter how dark things can look politically, there is a path out of this, and walking that path is the plan, and This Is the Plan.
KEILAR: All right, that's the plan -- that's the book. Ben Wikler, thank you so much.
"This Is the Plan: How to End America's Meltdown and Save Democracy."
Now, two of my top Democratic sources are here with us. We have Neera Tanden and David Axelrod.
I want you guys to respond to what you just heard Ben said. If you think the party is ready for the midterms, if you think there's room for everyone, if you think they're poised going into this. What do you think?
NEERA TANDEN, PRESIDENT & CEO, CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS, FORMER DOMESTIC POLICY ADVISER TO PRES. BIDEN: I mean, I think he's right that what it will take this election cycle is a big tent.
And just like some moderates should say -- Zohran Mamdani is a mayor in New York City who is very popular in New York City and is increasingly popular across the country. I also think it's really important to give space to moderate candidates who have to win in -- or you know, different kinds of candidates who have to win in swing states and swing districts.
And the uniting factor across these races has been, or these areas, is that everyone from New York City, to Iowa, to Alaska, to Ohio, to Wisconsin, is concerned about the high cost of living.
And you know I think the connective tissue is the war we should be focused on is the Iran War, in which the President had made a decision by himself to take the country to war, and the American people are paying for it in higher gas, and unfortunately, our service members have paid for it with their -- the ultimate service to the country.
DAVID AXELROD, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO PRES. OBAMA: Well, I haven't actually been involved in a political campaign for 14 years? So, I've actually been hanging out here for the last 11.
But let me give you the more analytical view of this, and that is that I think that Democrats start off with an advantage in this election, and the advantage is that people are very unhappy with this economy, and they're very unhappy with this president.
And the history of midterm elections is that only twice in the last 80 years has the party that is in control of the White House gained seats in a midterm election. I don't think this year is going to be different.
That doesn't mean that Democrats shouldn't -- if I were advising the Democratic Party, I would -- it may seem hackneyed, but they probably should have some sort of their version of the contract with America, so that the major things that unite Democrats are obvious to people, come in the November election. And maybe after Labor Day, they will do that.
[21:40:00]
But there is a real concern about how government functions, whether it's functioning in the interests of people. The issue about billionaires is not that people are wealthy and living extravagant lives. It's that when you have a few people who have a great concentration of wealth, they also have a great concentration of power, and they have a great concentration of influence over government, and we see it very readily now.
So, there's a lot for to unify Democrats. And I think my sense is that there's work to be done, but Democrats probably are in a pretty good spot.
KEILAR: And that gap is growing with the economy. You see that.
OK. So, with a blinking neon caveat, David, that we are more than two years out from the 2028 election.
AXELROD: Right.
KEILAR: But I don't care. OK? I want to ask you about this--
AXELROD: You wanted to do a--
(CROSSTALK)
KEILAR: --new 2028 presidential poll. But it doesn't feel like two years out is too far. Two-ish years. OK?
TANDEN: Yes. Yes, we're definitely anxious to move forward in time.
AXELROD: Yes.
TANDEN: That's for sure.
KEILAR: But just this -- the people are maneuvering.
AXELROD: People would say, it feels like an eternity, but.
KEILAR: People are maneuvering, right? They are making their moves here.
So, there's this poll in New Hampshire. It shows that Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is actually up seven percentage points since February to now lead the potential primary field of several other high-profile Democrats, including Pete Buttigieg, Gavin Newsom, Kamala Harris.
What do you think about this? Is this an indication of where Democratic voters are at? What do you think?
AXELROD: Here's what I think. I think that we should just go out and get a Farmer's Almanac, and that might be as useful as polls are right now. Because we don't know all the players we're going to field. You had -- Ro Khanna was sitting here. I wouldn't be surprised if he were a candidate in 2028. There would be a lot of candidates out there.
TANDEN: He--
(CROSSTALK)
AXELROD: And campaigns actually matter. Campaigns are where you find out whether people have a message and have the mettle to take that next step. And I can't tell you -- I mean, I'm impressed by a lot of people I see. I can't tell you who's going to meet that test.
One of the things that I regretted about 2024 was that we didn't have a primary. Because I think primaries do serve a purpose. Barack Obama ran for two years. Had he not had those two years of running for president, I'm not sure people would have concluded that a guy who had just left the State Senate in Illinois, three or four years earlier, was ready to become President of the United States.
TANDEN: Yes, they got it--
AXELROD: So, have I -- have I sufficiently eluded your question?
KEILAR: Yes, you have. Neera is not going to though.
OK. So, Manu Raju caught up with Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez because, of course, he did, and he asked her about this, and here's what she said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): I feel very, you know, humbled by the support of everyday people. I think that you know, polls go up, polls go down, that's kind of part of how all of this works.
MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Why do you think yours are going up right now?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: You'd have to ask folks in New Hampshire.
RAJU: But does that change how you think about your future? OCASIO-CORTEZ: I think, you know, I think when I make decisions about my life, it's -- they aren't just rooted in polls. They're rooted in what people need, what is best for the country, and what is appropriate for the moment. And I think that right now, the most important thing before the country right now is for Democrats to win the midterm elections.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: It's always these moments where we get to quote that movie, "Dumb and Dumber."
So, you're saying there's a chance. I mean, she's not saying no there. What do you think?
TANDEN: Do I -- I mean, I agreed with everything she said actually.
KEILAR: OK. Yes, but--
TANDEN: I think the midterms are really important. And look, I think what I would say is that the country is -- you know, I think a lot of people think things are broken in the country, and they are hungry for more transformative change, and they are looking to the next generation of leaders.
When you look at the list of people, I don't think it really matters that someone's at 22 versus 21 percent in a poll, two years out. But I think, you do see on that list leaders who are -- who have offered and are offering more transformative change. And I think in the arguments within the party, what the -- what the country is going to be wondering about is what is the direction the country can go in 2028? Who is a leader strong enough to offer an agenda of change?
AXELROD: Right--
TANDEN: That every election over the last 20 years, except for one, was a change election. That one was helmed by this guy. Barack Obama's -- Barack Obama's 2012 re-election. But every election has been a change election. And I think the most important thing that can unite the Democratic Party is a vision for change for the country, so we break out of this polarization and one that unites--
AXELROD: Yes.
TANDEN: --a broad section of the country.
[21:45:00]
AXELROD: I think this is going to be a really unique election in some ways, for this period of our history because Donald Trump has basically done a teardown in many ways.
TANDEN: Yes.
AXELROD: And the question is, what are you going to build? I think that people are going to want someone who can project a vision, not just of restoration of what--
TANDEN: Absolutely.
AXELROD: --Donald Trump has torn down. But what -- what we can build that's more responsive to people, more resilient and resistant to corruption of big money, that genuinely employs all of the techniques and capacities available to us in the 21st century, to help solve some of these problems, and someone who will bring people together. So, after -- I think people are weary. I think all the qualities, honesty, humility, empathy, integrity, I think those things are going to over- index in 2028.
KEILAR: It is coming up sooner than we would like to admit it is.
David. Neera. Thank you so much to both of you.
And up next. My colleague Jake Tapper joins us with an incredible exclusive investigation of the 18 days surrounding the deaths of Renee Good and Alex Pretti in Minneapolis. What he learned about false claims, chaos, and cover-ups.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:50:00]
KEILAR: Friday marks six months since the death of Alex Pretti, the VA nurse who was shot and killed by federal immigration officials in Minneapolis. His death came just weeks after Renee Good was fatally shot by an ICE officer.
In a new CNN investigation, Jake Tapper examines the tumultuous 18 days surrounding those two deaths, tracing how the Trump administration's immigration enforcement policies of aggression and cover-ups contributed to those deaths, and how those policies still have not changed.
Take a listen to part of what Jake heard from one former federal prosecutor in Minnesota, who resigned after the killing of Renee Good.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM CALHOUN-LOPEZ, FORMER ASST. U.S. ATTORNEY, DISTRICT OF MINNESOTA: Federal agents do their job very, very well. So, it's important that prosecutors protect them where they can, and that means vindicating their rights if they're victims of assault.
But I began to have concerns that agents were not being truthful. Making arrests with very little provocation, and then soon enough, no provocation. And even after that, I would learn that agents had instigated physical contact, and so they were arresting people not only who had committed no assault, but who had in fact been assaulted by federal agents.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: Jake is my source tonight. Jake, that's a pretty stunning admission. What else did that former federal prosecutor tell you about what was going on in Minneapolis at the time?
JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, CNN ANCHOR, THE LEAD & STATE OF THE UNION: Well, to take a step back, the U.S. Attorney's Office in Minnesota had been getting along very well with the Trump Justice Department in 2025.
They had been prosecuting a number of fraud cases, billions of dollars in fraud. They worked well together after the horrific assassination of the former State House Speaker Melissa Hortman and her husband, after the horrific school shooting at Annunciation Catholic.
But then came Operation Metro Surge on December 1st. And as you heard from Tom Calhoun-Lopez, one of the prosecutors who resigned a few weeks later, immigration agents all of a sudden were lying about what was going on.
And then, prosecutors in the office heard that the administration was going to send more agents, and they were going to send Border Patrol agents, and they were going to send Greg Bovino. And a Homeland Security agent said to this room full of prosecutors and others, Somebody's going to get killed. And a few days later, Renee Good was killed.
And then came the stuff that made them all resign: Tom Calhoun-Lopez, and five others, and that was -- four others, I should say. And that was the fact that the Justice Department was pushing them to investigate Renee Good, as a domestic terrorist, as somebody who assaulted a federal officer, to claw back a warrant for Renee Good's car and change the predicate for the warrant, from an investigation into whether or not Renee Good's civil rights had been violated, which is just standard operating procedure, to one where she was being investigated. And there would even be some investigatory steps into her widow, Becca Good. And that caused these five individuals to resign on January 13th.
KEILAR: It's been six months since Renee Good and Alex Pretti's deaths. There have been no charges, and Trump's DOJ pushed local prosecutors to investigate Renee Good and her widow, as you noted there, that led to those five resignations.
From what you've learned, is it clear at all whether any investigation into those deaths is happening or is going to happen?
TAPPER: We don't know. Normally, such a thing would be announced that it is going on. Normally, such a thing would be a joint investigation between the FBI and local law enforcement officials in Minnesota. It's the BCA. But that is not happening.
The federal authorities announced the day of Renee Good's shooting that they were not going to do a joint investigation. They prevented, they prohibited, local law enforcement authorities from reaching the scene of the crime, and then they did the same thing with Alex Pretti. It is possible that an investigation is going on right now. I don't know. The family of Pretti, the family of Good, do not know. But the local prosecutors, who are now former prosecutors, are outraged by the fact that no one knows anything about it. And in terms of the Pretti shooting, one of the prosecutors said, that was a summary execution.
KEILAR: Jake, thank you so much. Really important reporting here to check out.
And you can be sure to catch all of Jake's great reporting, 18 Days in Minnesota, on CNN.com.
TAPPER: Thank you.
KEILAR: Up next. The Source Code. We're giving you a number at the center of a story in the news, and can you guess that story? Tonight's Source Code is 5.6. We'll be right back with the answer.
[21:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:00:00]
KEILAR: Tonight's Source Code is 5.6 That is GPT-5.6 Sol, one of several OpenAI test models that went rogue. It sounds very sci-fi, but this actually happened.
OpenAI says it was testing how good some of its new models are at hacking, and this model, on its own, figured out a way to hack out of its contained test space and get into the open internet, and the model then broke into a separate company's production servers, trying to get the answer to solve the test exercise.
The ChatGPT maker is calling this an unprecedented cyber incident. These two companies say they're working together to solve the security flaws that the model exploited.
Thank you for joining us.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts now.
