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The Source with Kaitlan Collins
Reflecting Pool Case Against Ex-Olympian Officially Tossed; Trump: "Not Going To Get Involved" As GOP Rep. Faces Calls To Resign; CNN Projects Justin Pearson Wins TN 9 Dem Primary. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired August 06, 2026 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: --yes, no, it follows days where we learned about agentic AI breaking into companies there, so you can understand why the questions are being asked. But this appears to be a little different, humans-in-the-loop, safeguards, et cetera, et cetera.
Jake Ward, thank you for calming me down, at least a little bit. I really appreciate it.
That is all for us tonight.
I'm going to be back here, tomorrow morning, 07:00 a.m., alongside Sara Sidner tomorrow for "CNN NEWS CENTRAL."
In the meantime, "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN HOST, THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS: Tonight. The former Olympian accused of vandalizing the Lincoln Memorial Reflecting Pool, before the Justice Department abruptly dropped that case against him, is joining me tonight.
I'm Kaitlan Collins. And this is THE SOURCE.
And as we come on the air tonight, a judge has officially approved the dismissal of a case against the former Olympian David Hearn. He spent more than a month staring down felony criminal charges, accused of vandalizing the Lincoln Memorial Reflecting Pool, here in Washington.
The Justice Department's decision to drop the case infuriated President Trump, and he has still continued to insist that it was vandalized, even after the U.S. Attorney, Jeanine Pirro, was seen taking a box of evidence to the White House to back up her claims that the Justice Department told a federal judge that the damage was, quote, "The result of a botched installation and not vandalism."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Everybody saw the vandalism. All you have to do is look at the tape. If you look at the tape. Plus, we have a witness or two witnesses that saw the vandalism. So certainly, there was vandalism. It was actually, in my opinion, it was major vandalism. And I told her I was not happy.
Now, we have photographs or tapes -- like moving cameras, right? We have them. Where people are on the side cutting it with a box knife.
People did great damage to this thing because they're sick people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That's not what the DOJ now says in court, and the judge so far has also stopped short of saying that prosecutors can't revive the case against Mr. Hearn in the future.
But the Justice Department's decision to drop that case was a stunning about-face, especially after Jeanine Pirro herself insisted that the evidence was rock-solid.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEANINE PIRRO, U.S. ATTORNEY FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA: It is anarchy.
The evidence shows, and we will prove beyond a reasonable doubt, that Hearn willfully destroyed property at the Lincoln Memorial Reflecting Pool.
There was an effort, a violent effort, to rip up the sealant from the bottom of the pool.
We can state and prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he caused damage, and that damage is over a $1,000.
REPORTER: Keying in on that, how do you prove that $1,000--
PIRRO: With an expert.
REPORTER: Is that because--
PIRRO: Come to the trial.
REPORTER: Did he have any tools, or is it just his bare hands?
PIRRO: Right now we believe it's his bare hands, both hands.
REPORTER: So, does that indicate, in your belief, that it was probably damaged before, or do you believe that he--
PIRRO: Oh, he damaged it.
REPORTER: Further. But do you believe there -- it had already been damaged before, so--
PIRRO: He damaged the pool.
REPORTER: Before he touched it, he--
PIRRO: He damaged this pool. (END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, Jeanine Pirro and other top members of the Trump administration, repeatedly went on television, in front of the cameras, to back up the President's claims of alleged vandalism, claims that prosecutors have now reversed course on in court.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The vandalism is very real. Despite what Tim Walz wants to say, It's an imaginary problem. No, it is not. It's a very real problem.
DOUG BURGUM, INTERIOR SECRETARY: It didn't peel off. There was -- there was -- there was vandalism. There was box -- box cutters. There have been seven arrests. There was people literally trying to destroy part of the monument.
PIRRO: Not only is it vandalism that is reflected in today's indictment, but there is a cutting of the liner of the pool at the base of the pool for several yards across the pool, and someone was intent on doing incredible damage to the pool.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My source tonight is David Hearn, in his first interview since the Justice Department dropped those charges against him.
And he's joined here tonight by his attorney, Norm Eisen.
And first off, just thank you for being here. I'm going to call you Davy, which is obviously what all your friends call you, and your family and loved ones. Can you just tell us how you're feeling tonight?
DAVID HEARN, EX-OLYMPIAN PREVIOUSLY CHARGED IN REFLECTING POOL CASE: I'm feeling like quite a bit relieved, now that the case has actually been dismissed officially. But I'm still pretty concerned about innocent people being accused by the government of things they didn't do. It's a -- it's a really unsettling feeling for me.
[21:05:00]
COLLINS: I mean, what went through your mind, last Friday, when the Justice Department filed that court filing, dropping the charges against you and saying, Actually, it wasn't vandalism; it was just a botched installation.
HEARN: This whole thing has been really surreal and absurd. I think a lot of people feel that way. Again, it's a relief, but there's a -- there's an attachment to that relief of extreme concern for other people and for our country.
COLLINS: You're someone who is an Olympian who represented the United States on the global stage. I imagine, you probably never thought you would find yourself in the crosshairs of the Justice Department. HEARN: No, I wouldn't have -- I wouldn't have thought so. It's really a different time in the United States of America right now. We all -- we all need to be vigilant in this -- in this climate.
COLLINS: Norm, one thing that the judge did not rule on today and is coming at a later date is whether or not the case is dismissed without prejudice, meaning that the DOJ can't bring this against you again. When do you expect the judge to rule on that, and how so?
NORM EISEN, DAVID HEARN'S ATTORNEY: Yes, we'll look forward to having a prompt hearing on that, Kaitlan. The judge has ordered additional briefing.
The distinction is if a case is dismissed without prejudice, it can be brought again. With prejudice, it can't be brought again. And the legal test is if someone is subject to harassment or bad faith. And this whole case is an example of that.
So, we think it's a very strong case for dismissal with prejudice. We've put in a substantial motion to that effect. It's the seventh filing that we've made with the court, starting the day after Davy was arraigned, saying, The evidence here, look at the pictures, the government's own evidence before and after. The pool was unchanged.
COLLINS: Should we expect further legal action from the two of you?
EISEN: Well, at this point, we're focused on finishing the process, advocating to the court, we want this case dismissed with prejudice. But all options are on the table.
Our wonderful legal team, Mary Dohrmann at the Washington Litigation Group, my colleagues at Democracy Defenders Fund, Steve Levine at Steptoe, we're looking at all the options. American law does not like it when an innocent person is wrongly accused. So, we'll make those evaluations after we resolve the dismissal with prejudice.
COLLINS: But you're leaving it open to potentially suing for damages?
EISEN: All options are on the table, and there are a lot of options when an innocent man is wrongly accused.
COLLINS: When you listen to the D.C. U.S. Attorney, Jeanine Pirro there, with such bravado in that initial press conference, unveiling the charges against you, and you hear her describing what she accused you of that day, what's that like for you?
HEARN: Yes, that happened back on July 2nd, more than a month ago, and it was the week before our first arraignment hearing date. That was a little bit of a shock, but it was so -- the things she was saying were so outrageous, I had to try to put together, OK, what did I do that's getting her to say I did these things? Because I didn't know what -- how -- that connection, I didn't get that.
COLLINS: Her talking about you using your bare hands and violently ripping up the pool? That doesn't line up with what you believe happened that day? HEARN: No, I was -- I was there on a bike ride and decided to stop by the Reflecting Pool on my way home, as a curious, concerned citizen, to see what was happening there at the Reflecting Pool with the algae growth and this botched repair and renovation job that had been reported on. There was a lot of reports of the peeling blue coating, and I wanted to see for myself what was going on there.
EISEN: And Kaitlan, the government's own filing says that the case can't be proved beyond a reasonable doubt, as is required. It was a botched rush filing. They can't establish. They don't have the evidence. And who is to blame? The Department of the Interior, according to the U.S. Attorney herself.
COLLINS: Well, I mean, but you mentioned that -- that press conference happened over a month ago, on July 2nd. And the charges you were facing here have a maximum penalty of, I believe, 10 years in jail. I mean, were you losing sleep over this? Did it have an impact on you and your family?
[21:10:00]
HEARN: I've definitely been losing sleep. My sleep has been not ideal lately. I did sleep a little bit better last night, and I have been able to keep up as much as I can my bicycle training. I've been trying to do that. That's always the thing that kind of keeps me mentally and physically level in any event, and in this situation, it's definitely been crucial.
COLLINS: Do you want an apology?
HEARN: Apology would be nice. It's hard to know what that apology might sound like from the people that have been pushing this so hard, and I don't -- I don't know what that would sound like. It would be nice to get an apology.
COLLINS: Who do you want an apology from? Jeanine Pirro, or Todd Blanche, or even President Trump himself?
EISEN: I think, for now, we're going to focus on getting the case dismissed. That is the best first step. We think it should be dismissed with prejudice, and then we'll go from there, including considering all legal options.
COLLINS: When you look at this, in terms of how the President has responded to what his own U.S. attorney here has said in court. He has not ruled out not firing her from her position.
The Interior Secretary, Doug Burgum, that you mentioned there, Norm, wrote after that court filing and said, The evidence is clear, that vandals have repeatedly caused damage to the Reflecting Pool. He says, some of this was caught on camera. He talks about eyewitness testimony.
What is your reaction to hearing a senior official in the government still say that it was vandalism? HEARN: It's very unsettling. It's not the United States of America that I know. It's not the United States of America that I've represented in many competitions overseas, including three Olympic Games, 13 World Championships. It's just -- it's just not -- it's just not right. It has to be rejected.
COLLINS: What would you say to Americans who are watching, in terms of what it felt like for you, as someone who has represented the country on the global stage, to be on the other side of the Justice Department?
HEARN: Well, I mean, this could happen to anybody. If it can happen to me, it could happen to anybody. Nobody's immune to this kind of government lawlessness, essentially, and it's really the kind of thing that you think a dict -- you know, a country ruled by a dictator, that's where you see that kind of thing. And this isn't -- this is not the land of the free and the home of the brave that I know.
COLLINS: Do you believe Jeanine Pirro when she says that she didn't have evidence turned over to her by the Interior Department before she charged your client?
EISEN: I think the assertions that were made in the government's filing, last Friday, that they didn't realize what had happened until they got this Department of the Interior data dump are -- do not carry water.
Everybody saw in the motions that we filed on behalf of Davy, motion after motion that the evidence showed that he was innocent, photographic proof that the Reflecting Pool did not change, including using the government's own evidence, Kaitlan, that the Reflecting Pool did not change before and after he touched it.
So, it's hard to believe -- we welcome obviously the government moving to dismiss it -- but that part of their motion is implausible.
COLLINS: When you initially walked out of court that day, some people might have been surprised to see that you had a smile on your face in some -- in some moments. There were a lot of people out there with signs, supporting you, and cheering for you, and criticizing your indictment. Was that the scene you were expecting when you walked out of court that day?
HEARN: The amount of support I've received from my cycling community, my paddling community, my neighborhood, and music and dance community, as well as the support from all of my great counsel team, that's been fantastic.
And that smile was when I saw all those supporters outside the courtroom that day that, that I have all these people behind me. That's what that smile was about.
COLLINS: If you had a final message to the President tonight about what has happened to you, about the Justice Department coming after you, what would you say to him?
[21:15:00]
HEARN: And I don't think anyone likes being targeted or accused of things they didn't do. It's -- it's painful to be talked about like I'm some kind of scum or not a very nice person. It's -- it isn't. And to that -- for that to be coming from a place of untruth is just not right. Leaders don't do that.
COLLINS: Davy Hearn, thank you for coming on and joining me tonight.
HEARN: Thank you.
COLLINS: Norm Eisen, always, thank you so much. I really appreciate y'all's time tonight.
EISEN: Thanks, Kaitlan.
COLLINS: Thank you both.
Up next here for us on THE SOURCE. We'll talk more about what's been happening at the White House, as President Trump has been weighing in on the issue he says helped him get elected. Now that we're 90 days out from the midterms, he's still blaming his predecessor. Maggie Haberman is here with her latest reporting.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:20:00]
COLLINS: Tonight, President Trump is battling what might be one of his toughest political opponents of all, time. That's because they have less than three months to go until the midterm elections. As the President is pointing to the past to explain today's prices, with his economic team arguing that Americans should look to the future, promising big gains to come once the Trump agenda finally takes hold.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: What is your message on affordability, going into the midterms?
TRUMP: Well, that's a good question, but it's sort of simple to answer. I inherited the highest prices ever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Actually, overall prices are higher now than when the President took office. And since the start of his second term, prices on a lot of the things that Americans buy are up. Overall consumer prices have increased 4.3 percent since the President was inaugurated, and despite what he keeps saying.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I inherited those high prices, just so you understand.
We had the highest prices in the world, and now we have the lowest prices.
We've been bringing down prices.
You got to remember that. And we took it over. What a mess it was. And we're bringing down prices, and we brought down prices, and nobody can believe what's going on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: According to CNN polling, most Americans don't believe it, not on the economy, or inflation, or on gas prices.
The Trump administration, though, has been arguing that help is just over the horizon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOWARD LUTNICK, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF COMMERCE: The economy that Donald Trump owns starts at the end of this year.
In the fourth quarter of 2025, this economy is going to be humming.
SCOTT BESSENT, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY: I think 2026 is going to be a great year.
Next year is going to be the year for Main Street, as all this kicks in.
LUTNICK: I think we're going to grow over 5 percent in the first quarter of 2026.
Look for the second quarter of 2026 to be amazing.
You're going to see the end of 2026, you're going to see 6 percent growth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: A year and a half into his second term, President Trump has been looking backwards on the central issue that he acknowledges actually put him back in the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I won on groceries. It's a very simple word, groceries. Like almost -- you know, who uses the word? I started using the word, the groceries.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: My source on that and more is The New York Times White House correspondent, and the co-author, with Jonathan Swan, of the new book "Regime Change: Inside the Imperial Presidency of Donald Trump."
Maggie Haberman, welcome back to THE SOURCE. MAGGIE HABERMAN, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES, CO- AUTHOR, "REGIME CHANGE: INSIDE THE IMPERIAL PRESIDENCY OF DONALD TRUMP": Thanks for having me.
COLLINS: When you listen to that sound of Lutnick and Bessent, talking about 2026, 2026.
I mean, we are now in the eighth month of 2026, and the President is still saying, Well, it's because of what Joe Biden did when he was in office.
HABERMAN: Look, it's absolutely true that President Trump came in, and there had been inflation under Joe Biden. And one of the things Jonathan and I talk about in the book is there's no reason to believe that it actually would have been any less than when president -- if President Trump had had two consecutive terms. He has acknowledged he was fortunate to have a gap and not have to deal with post-COVID, the way that Biden did.
But we're now, as you said, well into his second term. So, it's -- one of the questions I always want to ask him is: At what point do you feel that you should start being -- when does the clock start on your own presidency? When is it not Joe Biden's fault or someone else's fault?
And for them to keep saying, A, it's going to get better and, B, prices are coming down, and also the U.S. has so much oil. If that's true, then why are gas prices so high? Why is everything spiking?
It's of a piece with a lot of things that the White House is saying right now, not just the White House but the President, which is we have plenty of munitions, despite the fact that I'm also then going to find people who are saying that there aren't, and I'm accusing them of treason and leaking. If it's false, then how is it treason?
Prices are all going down despite the fact that people can go to the stores and know what they're paying. So, it's less about messaging and it's just more about reality.
COLLINS: Yes, and on the munitions for the Iran war. Pete Hegseth called that, false reporting, yesterday. Then the President said overnight, We're going to find these leakers.
That's one thing that Americans maybe themselves can't register how many munitions the United States has on hand. But when they do go to the grocery store, when they do fill their tank up--
HABERMAN: Yes.
COLLINS: --I mean, those are things they will likely be thinking of when they go vote in 90 days or don't turn out to vote in the midterm elections.
[21:25:00]
HABERMAN: Well, the reason that they may end up thinking about something like the munitions, although I agree with you that, you know, the stockpiles are not on the average American's mind every day, is because the more of a depletion there is in munitions, the harder it makes it for the U.S. to get out of any of this on its own terms. And Iran does have a vote.
And so, the closer it gets to November, and the U.S. is still in the situation that it's in, that is very difficult, not just for the White House; it is difficult for the economy. And these things are related. And so, what we do know is that generically, voters don't like this war, and they don't understand why the U.S. is involved.
COLLINS: One thing that we had heard, and I wonder if this lines up with your reporting, is that he wasn't even just angry about the depleted munitions. It's that it was public because he's worried it hurts him not even just in terms of carrying out the war, but in negotiating with Iran.
HABERMAN: Correct. And so -- and you know this very well. So much of it is about a projection of strength. And one of his whole stories since he came back into office, and it was in term one, is you know, I rebuilt the military. We have the strongest military in the world. The force of the U.S. military is powerful.
It is very powerful. But the U.S. has been helping -- I mean, he's correct on this. The U.S. has been providing aid to war-torn areas for several years now. These munitions, particularly these air defense weapons, take time to produce, and that has not happened at the rate that he was hoping or the White House was hoping.
And so, I understand that he would rather not have that information out. But the public does have a right to know, at least some sense of where the war is. He has never made a case to the public about why this war is happening. He has never talked about where things actually are. It's ironic, considering what he ran on, and which was against something like this.
COLLINS: You traveled with the President this week as part of the press pools. He was going out west.
You just heard from David Hearn, who is this former Olympian--
HABERMAN: Yes.
COLLINS: --who was indicted, remarkably, for damaging the Reflecting Pool, and then Jeanine Pirro totally reversed course. When you hear what's going on with Jeanine Pirro, or the President refused to tell you all the other night -- well, he basically said he doesn't know if he's going to fire her or not.
HABERMAN: Yes, he said he hadn't made a determination yet.
COLLINS: And to hear him answer it that way was pretty remarkable.
HABERMAN: It was -- it was shocking. He looked visibly angry. And granted it was nighttime and it was under a giant plane wing, and he spoke to us for I think a total of eight minutes on this trip. That was all the press got with him. But he was clearly very angry and--
COLLINS: With her?
HABERMAN: With her. I mean, it was really about her. It was not about Burgum. He wasn't talking about that at all. It was that he didn't -- she didn't proceed with this case. He tried to walk it back a little bit, I think today with, I believe it was with NBC. Maybe it was somebody else. But it doesn't really matter, it's in the air and it's known what happened.
And I think that for Pirro, who had always believed that he would be very loyal to her because she's been very loyal to him, it was pretty surprising. It probably shouldn't have been, but this is not something like -- remember the hurricane map in term one where he drew over, I think it was your -- your state?
COLLINS: In Alabama.
HABERMAN: Yes.
COLLINS: Yes.
HABERMAN: He drew a cone and the storm wasn't there.
This is charging someone criminally. This is not just drawing on a map, and so -- and this is not just not wanting to be corrected about a storm track. So, expecting that a U.S. attorney is going to go to court and present information when she knows she can't continue that case says a lot about where his mindset is.
COLLINS: Yes, and it's kind of what he wants done--
HABERMAN: Yes.
COLLINS: --to fit his reality--
HABERMAN: Correct.
COLLINS: --running up against the facts in a way that doesn't--
HABERMAN: Reality.
COLLINS: --happen that often for him, but could happen in this case or has happened, and could happen in the midterm elections, despite what he's saying about the war and prices.
HABERMAN: No question. Look, the one X factor -- there's a number of X factors. I will say, I don't know how valuable conventional wisdom is in terms of the midterms this year--
COLLINS: Agree.
HABERMAN: --beyond the idea that yes, his popularity is not good, Republicans' popularity is not good.
The Democrats' just party popularity is not good. They are struggling in terms of what kind of candidates they are putting into the general elections. They're struggling with exactly what kind of messaging they want. And there are people -- I was talking to a strategist about this earlier today -- who are still riding sort of a 2018 wave of, It's anti-Trump and we'll let the vibes carry it, and voters are not so into vibes, so.
COLLINS: Yes.
Maggie Haberman, as always, great to have you.
HABERMAN: Thanks for having me.
COLLINS: Thank you for joining us with your reporting.
Her new book, "Regime Change," is out now and is an excellent read.
Up next here. We are seeing Republicans in Ohio, speaking of the midterms, calling on Congressman Max Miller to resign. How he's responding to those pleas from his own party? My political panel is here right after this.
[21:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Mr. President, the deadline for Representative Max Miller to withdraw from his race is coming up next week.
TRUMP: Yes.
REPORTER: Do you believe he should withdraw at this point?
TRUMP: Well, I'm not going to get involved in that. It's a very sad situation, and I know Max very well, but it's very, very sad that a situation like that takes place.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: That was President Trump, inside the Oval Office today, declining to weigh in on the Ohio Republican Congressman Max Miller's political future. It comes as more members of Miller's party are now calling for him to resign amid the domestic abuse allegations, allegations that he has denied, including Ohio Senator Jon Husted, who now says that he believes Max Miller should drop out of his race and leave Congress.
[21:35:00]
Ohio's other Republican senator, of course, is Max Miller's former father-in-law. That's Bernie Moreno, who told CNN today that he sent his daughter, granddaughter, and his wife, quote, "Out of state to a secure place" because they didn't feel safe.
Moreno had this to say last night. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BERNIE MORENO (R-OH): If you've noticed, the one human being that has not been in front of any cameras is my daughter. My daughter is completely focused on being a mom. And if you know anybody that's ever been through any abuse situation, it's not just the physical abuse; it's the mental abuse. And by having this all out in the public like this, she's reliving that emotional abuse on steroids.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Now, Max Miller has denied any wrongdoing here and shared emails with CNN, showing his ex-wife communicating flight information to him and allowing a video visit with their 2-year-old daughter.
His spokesperson also added, quote, Congressman Miller knows exactly where his daughter is. Emily asked to take the child to see family in Florida. They were not whisked away to some bunker. This is getting sad.
Joining me now are my political sources.
Karen Finney, the former DNC communications director.
And Scott Jennings, who's a former senior adviser to Mitch McConnell.
And Scott, one thing that you had said that stood out to me was, there might be time for the President to weigh in on Max Miller, as this has continued to go on and what his future should be. How do you see that tonight, given the President is still saying it's not an issue for him to respond to.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER SR. ADVISER TO MITCH MCCONNELL, FORMER SPECIAL ASST. TO PRES. GEORGE W. BUSH, HOST, "THE SCOTT JENNINGS RADIO SHOW" ON SRN: Well, I don't know honestly. I mean, I've been reading that some Republicans are expecting Miller to drop his campaign or maybe even drop out of Congress. Maybe the President thinks it's going to resolve itself without his direct public intervention. Maybe he thinks he's already said privately what he needs to say. I don't really know.
I think it's pretty telling, Kaitlan, that a lot of Republicans in Ohio and around the country are sort of publicly now saying, Look -- trying to give Max some advice, which is, Put your family first, there'll be time for politics later, and move on from this. But it's obviously not resolved tonight, and there are not very many days to go.
I do think, frankly, the President is someone who could probably end this right now if he wanted to because, he is close to Max Miller. So, obviously, he declined to do that today. But there's still a few days to go.
COLLINS: Scott, what's your read on why you think he's potentially not? JENNINGS: I really don't know. I know they had a private phone call, and I know that he, I think, was pretty clear to Miller about what he thought of his chances in light of everything that's come out. So, maybe he feels like he's already weighed in here, but I couldn't really speculate on that.
I do think it was proper for the President to call him and to give him some candid advice. But you know, sometimes, people who get candid good advice from people with really good political instincts, like President Trump in this case, ultimately don't take it. Not everybody takes good advice that they're being given, and that may be the case for Miller, but that would be extremely unfortunate, not just for politics reasons, but for his family. I mean, the entire family is having to live through this --
COLLINS: Yes.
JENNINGS: --ordeal in the public, and that's very bad, especially for the little girl who's involved here.
COLLINS: Yes, I mean, when you hear Senator Moreno talk about it, obviously you can see that it's painful for him as he keeps getting asked about it, understandably so.
And Karen, Max Miller did an interview, a long interview with Jake Tapper this week. And at one point in it, as Jake was asking him some very good questions in terms of what he's accused of, his denials. He was adamant about staying in his re-election race, and at one point compared himself to what President Trump himself has dealt with.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MAX MILLER (R-OH): In 2016, when President Donald J. Trump faced the most extreme allegations, he stayed in and he was resilient. And what the American people can see is that they can see that somebody is fighting who is resilient, and that is a quality that the American people cherish.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Is that how you see it?
KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, SENIOR ADVISER, HILLARY CLINTON 2016 CAMPAIGN, FORMER DNC COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: No. I mean, look, I think -- I mean, I certainly agree with Scott that I hope this gentleman takes the advice and gets out because this is terrible for his family, and his little girl is going to be able to see all of this one day, and you would never want your child to see you at your worst moment.
But here's what was interesting: that was an interesting sort of dig, it felt like or pushback on Donald Trump. And what concerned me about it is something that we actually talked about, frankly, during the Graham Platner situation, which is, it can't be the -- Donald Trump did have his own issues, and it should not be the case that we have so lowered the standards that these credible type of allegations are just brushed aside.
[21:40:00]
It's good to see that they're not being treated that way. They're very serious. And character -- I think that comes back to a theme that we should keep talking about, and that is that character actually matters. And unfortunately, Max Miller is not displaying much character these days.
COLLINS: I mean, Scott, is there anything you think that would get him, that would change the trajectory of this right now and beyond the President here weighing in. I mean, you've got obviously one senator, your former father-in-law, but the other Ohio senator weighing in on this. I mean, it's pretty much the upper echelons of the political establishment, at least in your state.
JENNINGS: Yes, look, I mean, sometimes politicians respond to data. I mean, if somebody showed him a poll that showed him falling behind or in a position where he simply couldn't win, maybe that has an impact on someone's thinking.
I watched the Jake Tapper interview; it was remarkable, frankly because, he appeared to be trying to use the campaign as a way to absolve or prove himself on the personal side of this. And obviously, they're two different things. Winning a campaign doesn't mean you did everything right, and it certainly doesn't absolve you of any bad actions you took towards an ex-spouse or a child that you have. But that -- he was trying to, I think, use one to fix the other. And my personal advice to him would be, that's not going to work.
So, I don't know. You know--
COLLINS: Yes, Karen, do you agree with that?
JENNINGS: --sometimes, politicians respond to data.
FINNEY: Yes, look, I think it's pretty clear that he should just get out.
I just want to make one other point, though. It's a little bit infuriating to see these members of Congress, these senators, they're perfectly comfortable starting to tell him he should give out, and yet many of them are willing to vote to confirm Todd Blanche, who is himself actually protecting a number of child molesters in the Epstein files. So, I think if we're going to hold the standard about character for one, it should be for all, and it should be a high standard.
COLLINS: Scott, talking about Todd Blanche, who is facing some questions about his confirmation that's supposed to happen before senators go on their break.
Your former boss, Mitch McConnell, announced in a written statement today that he has been discharged from his rehab center that he was at, that he is recovering at home. He says he still has to continue undergoing intense rehabilitation after that fall.
Have you had a chance to speak with him since he's gotten home?
JENNINGS: No, I was in touch with the office today, and I know he was settling back in, and he's got this regimen of physical therapy he's going to be doing, over the course of the August work period, and that's their plan.
I find it unlikely he'd be back in the Senate this week for Todd Blanche or for anything else. Although I would note he was, talking to some senators this week, including Senator Boozman of Arkansas, and doing some work on the farm bill, which of course is a huge issue for people here in Kentucky. But I don't expect him to be appearing for the Blanche vote, if there is a vote this week.
COLLINS: Even if they really need his vote, you don't expect him to play a role in that?
JENNINGS: It seems highly unlikely to me. Of course, I don't speak for (ph) him, and I haven't spoken to him tonight. But just based on what I've heard, it seems really unlikely that would be the case.
COLLINS: Karen, how do you see this, as it does come down to -- we don't know yet how Lisa Murkowski is going to vote, or Bill Cassidy, I believe either. Neither of them have said one way or the other how they're going to vote on Todd Blanche. And obviously, he needs -- he needs their votes.
FINNEY: Look, the whole thing about the fund was really a distraction because Donald Trump is going to do whatever it is he wants to do. At the end of the day, Blanche should not be confirmed because he is acting more as the President's lawyer than he is as the lawyer for the people of the United States, and I think the record speaks for itself. But this is politics after all.
COLLINS: Karen Finney. And Scott Jennings. Thank you both for being here tonight.
JENNINGS: Thank you.
COLLINS: Up next for us here on THE SOURCE. Something you might not have expected: a CNN election projection, but it's an important one. Right after a quick break.
[21:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: It's Election Night in Tennessee, and CNN can now project that Democratic state Representative Justin Pearson will win the Democratic primary to represent the state's newly re-drawn 9th Congressional District. He, of course, is one of those three Tennessee lawmakers who drew national attention in 2023, when Republicans in the state legislature moved to expel them following a gun control protest.
My source is one of the few voices -- one of the voices, I should say, pushing for new leadership inside the Democratic Party, who is also in Tennessee tonight. The former Vice Chair of the Democratic National Committee, David Hogg.
And thank you, David, for being here.
Just in terms of your takeaway from what we're seeing tonight, what we've seen in a lot of these primaries that have been playing out, what is the direction for your party, in your view?
DAVID HOGG, FORMER VICE CHAIR, DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE, PRESIDENT, LEADERS WE DESERVE: I think the direction for our party is for us to reject the corporate influence that so many voters are sick and tired of. We're living through a cost of living crisis right now, and people are sick and tired of the status quo. They're looking for something new, and the party has completely failed to offer that, and our candidates, like Justin J. Pearson, are stepping up in their place.
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And I'll tell you tonight, I was literally just at the Election Night party, before I came back here to do this interview, and the energy was palpable. I've been to a lot of Election Nights, and there is a lot of extreme anger, here in the South, at the redistricting that has happened in Tennessee, and I think that Republicans are in for a nasty surprise this November with their redistricting efforts.
COLLINS: One thing that has stood out to me from covering these races this week is in terms of where Democratic leadership in Washington is, and the candidates that have been winning. I mean, we had Bernie Sanders on last week. He was endorsing one candidate in Michigan, for example, in the Democratic Senate primary there. Chuck Schumer and others were effectively behind his challenger.
Do you think that that is the takeaway Democratic leadership has had from what's been going on in these primaries?
HOGG: No. Because I think that a lot of the time they're more committed to keeping the status quo than actually changing and offering something new to voters.
We can't -- we can't forget the fact that the reason why we're here right now is because the establishment that loves to talk a big game about what is and is not (ph) electable lost twice to Donald Trump. They've lost all credibility. And the people are looking for new leaders that can help lead our country out of this moment.
People -- Justin J. Pearson, where he's been -- people talk all the time now about data centers. He has been leading the fight against Elon Musk's Colossus -- it's literally called Colossus, I can't make that up -- data center here in Memphis for years now. And now, everybody around the country is talking about it.
And increasingly, people are looking at our politicians, and they're not saying, well, necessarily, just, Are they left or right? Are they for me, is what they're really asking. Are they going to actually support me? Are they going to look out for me and my neighbors, or are they going to look out for the Elon Musks of the world and their data center that they're putting in my backyard?
COLLINS: In terms of how some moderate Democrats have responded to the progressives that have won, there's been an argument that they need to moderate or concern over what that's going to look like should they succeed, or that they may not succeed; that they might be defeated by Republicans, despite them not doing well in the polling either.
What would you say to the moderates in your party who feel that way?
HOGG: I would say to the moderates in our party: you need to figure out how to actually offer something new to voters that isn't just the same message that you gave them in 2024.
Increasingly, the reason why the establishment of our party is being defeated over and over and over again is (inaudible) it's because they don't have the right values that are aligned with not just the Democratic base but the American people, where people are sick and tired of listening to Democrats who tell them all the reasons why they can't solve their problems.
If you can't solve our problems, you shouldn't be running for office. We need people who actually sound, at a minimum, and genuinely believe what they are saying. And I think that people are sick and tired of that.
And I think if I was a moderate, what I would be thinking about is, Hmm, how can I actually change and offer voters something new, and how can I develop an actual philosophy that is not just a triangulation of the political spectrum? Because I think that's part of the reason it sounds like these moderates don't believe at all in what they're saying because they're constantly recalculating, Well, what's the middle of the political spectrum. And that political spectrum is constant (ph). Meanwhile, candidates like Zohran Mamdani and others around the country are delivering for their constituents.
Let's not forget, the establishment was losing their mind when Leaders We Deserve, for example, came in and spent $300,000, as one of the largest (inaudible) campaign, and everybody was saying that he's going to be on every piece of Republican mail this November, and it's going to destroy our chances.
And look at where we are. He is now the most, one of the most popular, if not consistently the most popular elected official, not just in New York but in the United States of America. If that doesn't tell you everything that you need to know about the credibility of the establishment, that lost twice to Donald Trump, to talk about electability and popularity, I don't know what will.
COLLINS: David Hogg, it's always great to have you. And thank you for leaving that Election Night event with Justin Pearson to come and join us. We appreciate your time tonight.
HOGG: Always happy to celebrate a victory.
COLLINS: Up next. It is time for Source Code here for us. Of course, you know this by now. We give you a number at the center of a story in the news. Can you guess the story? Tonight's Source Code is 110. I'll be right back with the answer.
[21:55:00]
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COLLINS: Tonight's Source Code is 110, as in the $110 billion that DOGE says it has saved from federal spending over the last 17 months, but is a claim that a government watchdog now says isn't true.
That's because a new report from the Government Accountability Office, which reviewed the Department of Government Efficiency, that of course was led by Elon Musk, says that, quote, "DOGE was not transparent regarding methodologies used to calculate savings," and that actually the so-called Wall of Receipts that we saw posted online, which listed DOGE's estimated savings, actually included leases that were already in the process of ending before DOGE was even created. The watchdog says that DOGE overstated savings from those leases by more than $80 million.
Furthermore, DOGE also listed government contracts that were expected to be terminated but never actually were.
This new report suggests that DOGE has fallen far short of the $2 trillion in federal funding that Elon Musk had claimed, multiple times, he could cut.
The White House and DOGE officials have not yet responded to requests for comment about this new report, about the discrepancy in their numbers.
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If you missed any of the show tonight, it is available on demand, as always, to our CNN subscribers on the CNN app. You can also check it out wherever you get your podcasts. And follow me on Instagram and Twitter @kaitlancollins, where I'm always posting the latest reporting throughout the day.
Thanks so much for joining us tonight.
"CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP" starts right now.
