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CNN Sunday Morning

What Caused Recent FBI Mistakes?

Aired May 20, 2001 - 09:16   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: "TIME" magazine is reporting the director of the CIA is lobbying against the death penalty for accused FBI spy Robert Hanssen. Sources tell "TIME" George Tenet has lobbied Attorney General John Ashcroft several time to keep Hanssen alive. Tenet wants the 25-year veteran of the FBI to be available for questioning years down the road, if necessary. The CIA is also looking for Hanssen's cooperation now, and that may be prevented if prosecutors seek the death penalty.

The FBI has been in the news recently, to say the least. Director Louis Freeh testified before a congressional committee regarding misplaced documents that delayed the execution of Timothy McVeigh. And then, of course there's the case of Robert Hanssen we just told you about. He served for 25 years before being discovered as a spy for Russia.

Joining us from Washington to discuss these matters is former FBI special agent Cliff -- Clint Van Zandt.

Mr. Van Zandt, thanks for being with us this morning.

CLINT VAN ZANDT, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT: Thanks, Miles.

O'BRIEN: Let's put it all in perspective, shall we; we tend to, in the media, focus on the foibles of anything, including the FBI. I guess it's worth pointing out, in the McVeigh case, that up to this point it's been a fairly successful case for the federal police agency, hasn't it?

VAN ZANDT: Well I think, Miles, very much so. When you look at -- both McVeigh and Nichols were identified within 48 hours. Both were in custody. And the forensic evidence and the on-street evidence was right there to, not only identify him, but eventually bring him in court and convict him.

When you also consider that the FBI works 180,000 cases a year, and somehow these documents which -- a lot of them had already been turned over as copies, as duplicates -- this is not a blunder, this is a paper problem in an organization that spends so much time fighting fires they don't have time to polish the fire truck.

O'BRIEN: All right; but nevertheless, there are a lot of people watching it from the outside who, you know, are looking at this and wondering if we have the Keystone Cops over there at the Hoover Building in Washington. Is this a matter of ineptitude on the part of the agents, or is this, as some have suggested, particularly within the agency, that there isn't enough money there to keep the data processing up to snuff?

VAN ZANDT: Well one thing's for sure, Miles: It's not a conspiracy. You know, if it were a conspiracy, the FBI would have never raised its hand and said, we made a mistake, and identified itself. The documents would have never seen the light of day.

But it is suggestive that the ability for the FBI to file, maintain and retrieve documents is not staying up to time. The bureau needs a new person heading up that information aspect, and they need a new type of system to manage documents. The old system obviously doesn't work.

O'BRIEN: So it is a system issue, from your perspective?

VAN ZANDT: Well, I think it's a management issue also, Miles. I think that there is a need for a new type of management to come into the FBI in the 21st century.

You know, I worked under J. Edgar Hoover, I was at Waco and negotiated with David Koresh. I know there was a disconnect at Waco between the tactical team and the negotiators. That has been fixed; there are other things that need to be fixed in the FBI so it can continue to serve the American public.

O'BRIEN: Well -- so you've led us very well to a discussion of, what next, then, at the top posts there. And before we talk too much about that, just give us your assessment of Louis Freeh's legacy; this is your opportunity to write the first draft of history, her: How will Louis Freeh be viewed?

VAN ZANDT: Well, I think, from an inside perspective he's done a very good job. Let me just take one aspect for example: The FBI's being called upon to handle incidents of international terrorism directed against U.S. citizens, airplanes, et cetera. For years and years we had roughly 20 offices overseas. When Louis Freeh came onboard, he doubled that. There are now 44 offices to include the former Soviet Union. The FBI now has the ability to reach out, not only help other governments conduct investigations, but to get something conducted, bring that material back into the courts of the United States and prosecute it.

Part of the challenge the FBI has is that half the agents -- about 6,000 agents -- probably have less than six or seven years in the FBI. So it is now a young organization. It has a need to grow, to move on, and the experiences are just multiple out there, we just have to get all of our people up to speed again.

There's an interesting turnover that takes place in the FBI within the agent personnel. When they're 50, many of them move on to do something else.

O'BRIEN: Where might you give Mr. Freeh poor marks as far as it relates to his tenure at the top post? VAN ZANDT: Well I think, for one thing, his -- Louis Freeh came onboard, like the two previous federal judges before him, having managed a staff of five or six people as a federal judge, walked into an organization that now has 25,000 people and a $3.5 billion budget.

I think Louis Freeh, if he had a fault, he was too loyal to those around him. But, you know, I've been up at FBI headquarters, in the command post, and he'd be up there at 6:00 or 7:00 in the morning, he'd be there at 8:00 or 9:00 at night with his sleeves rolled up, pouring over investigations. Maybe he was too close to that; maybe he needs to take a step back -- or the next director does, and we need, perhaps, one person like a CEO to manage the overall FBI, and then we need someone like a corporate president who can manage the investigations. But we're going to ask that person to do that for $143,000 a year.

O'BRIEN: All that for that princely sum; that's a tough job. I don't know, Clint; would you do it for $143,000?

VAN ZANDT: You know, there's a lot of people that would say they wouldn't take the pay cut or they wouldn't deal with the commute, Miles. I think that's going to be the challenge. It's either going to take someone who is tremendously patriotic, who has independent wealth or hopefully not someone who's looking to just do it for their own purposes.

O'BRIEN: Clint Van Zandt, former FBI agent, now a security consultant; thanks for being with us on CNN SUNDAY MORNING.

VAN ZANDT: Thanks, Miles; appreciate it.

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