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CNN Sunday Morning

Debate Growing on Stem Cell Research

Aired August 05, 2001 - 09:38   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BRIAN NELSON, CNN ANCHOR: Let's talk more about human cloning right now. As we reported, the House voted last week to ban all human cloning. Now, this is a very divisive and a very complicated issue with political and religious implications.

And two guests now join me to debate the issue. From New York, Democratic Congressman Jerrold Nadler, who supports so-called therapeutic cloning. And from Cleveland, Democratic Congressman Dennis Kucinich, who does not.

Gentlemen, thank you both for being here this morning. This is a really complicated issue. So, let's begin by asking you both, do you think the public understands entirely what went on in the House last week?

REP. JERROLD NADLER (D) NEW YORK: No, I certainly don't. It was very unclear. Let's try to clear it up a little. There is reproductive cloning in which you try to create another human being identical genetically to someone else. Everybody agrees that ought to be banned. There is no controversy over that whatsoever.

And there is what's called therapeutic cloning, in which you don't attempt to clone a human being, but you attempt to clone a few cells. And you take an egg cell and you take the chromosomes from somebody else's skin cell, let's say, you switch the chromosomes, you develop a clump of cells out of that, what we call a blastocyst, a very early stage embryo, from which you remove a stem cell, and that stem cell can be used to treat the patient from whom you removed the skin cell for whatever disease it is without risking rejection of that new tissue, the new heart, the new lungs, the new kidney or whatever it may be, because of immunological rejection.

NELSON: Let's go over to Dennis Kucinich for a minute. Do you think what happened last week ended any part of this debate and what part ended? And what is left open?

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH (D) CLEVELAND: Well, first of all, I think the public does understand that if you are talking about the destruction of a human embryo, that does have severe ethical implications. We're in a sense being given a false choice: cure disease or protect human life.

The truth of the matter is that with adult stem cells we can in fact work towards curing disease. There is no proof whatsoever that creating embryonic stem cells for the purposes of curing disease even works. As a matter of fact, Wall Street may be the final voice on this because money for investments going down, the stocks are going down, because there's no efficiency, there's effectiveness. It's not even affordable to pursue this technology. So, they want the government to pick it up. There is ethical questions, though, at the heart of this, and I think the public does understand, and they're very queasy about this idea of using, destroying human embryos for research purposes.

NELSON: Let's take a look now at the political side of this. Where does it leave President Bush's decision that he has to come to grips with sometime between now and September on his ranch in Crawford. He's got to decide whether embryonic stem cell research is going to be approved and is going to be funded by the federal government.

NADLER: President Bush has to decide whether he will condemn millions of people to death for lack of the ability to cure them of diseases that could be cured through embryonic stem cells because of some people's religious belief that an early stage embryo is the same as a human being. Now, they're entitled to that belief. They're not entitled to impose that belief at the cost of other people's lives.

Now, when Dennis says that adult stem cells, that is stem cells that you get from adults, can do the same job as embryonic stem cells, most scientists say that's not the case. The truth is, we do not know at this point the capabilities of what we can do from adult stem cells, what we can do from embryonic stem cells, which is why the research has to continue on all fronts.

We do know that most of the scientists involved tell us that we will need embryonic stem cells in order to have these cures that will be able to prolong the lives and save the lives of millions of people.

NELSON: Let me ask you, Mr. Kucinich, is this not going to drive cloning, for example, offshore. You know, Britain already approves it. It's legal in Britain to cloning. You could -- what about the Bahamas? What about the entire Caribbean?

KUCINICH: Well, you have other nations that, such as France and Germany, that have taken a position that is similar to what the U.S. Congress has enunciated. The truth of the matter is that in the United States, which is where this debate really is about, nine states have already taken the same position that the Congress took in 1996, saying we should not be destroying human embryos.

The real question here is not even, it's certainly a spiritual one, but there's also a question about the commodification of human life, and if the ends justify the means. And I think that's something that a lot of Americans are reflecting on. Look, we have to have compassion for people who are ill. It's just horrible if somebody is waiting for a cure and life is slipping away. But we have to look a science within the realm of not just what is possible, but what's ethically right.

And I think it's important as we look at this embryonic stem cell issue, that we not get into a position where we're advocating prolonging life by destroying life. So, it becomes a real serious ethical problem for us, and I don't claim to have the last word at it. And my good friend, Congressman Nadler, is certainly an articulate spokesman for the other point of view.

But I will say that while we can have compassion, we also have to be careful that we don't go across that very dangerous divide between what constitutes a fully authentic human being and what constitutes a corporate induced creation that has neither mother nor father nor any connection with the primal human sympathies.

NADLER: This comes down to the question...

NELSON: Very quick, OK.

NADLER: This comes down to the question of whether you regard a clump of cells with no nerves, no senses, no heart, no lungs, no organs of any kind, simply a clump of cells, as a human being on the same level as a fully developed human being and whether you value the life of that clump of cells. You can't disturb that in order to save lives of born human beings.

(CROSSTALK)

NELSON: Gentlemen, I'm sorry, we're out of time. I need to thank you both. Mr. Kucinich, I'm sorry. If we had more time, believe me, I would give it to you, but I don't. I'm sorry.

So, Jerrold Nadler and Dennis Kucinich, we appreciate that very much.

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