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CNN Sunday Morning

America's New War

Aired September 16, 2001 - 10:27   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: And thank you, John. And right now we're going to quickly check in with Tom Mintier, who has joins us again from Islamabad, Pakistan, with an update. Tom?

TOM MINTIER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Paula, in the last hour the Pakistan government has confirmed what we have been reporting -- basically for the last six or seven hours -- is that a delegation -- a high level Pakistani delegation will go into Kandahar in Afghanistan tomorrow with a message.

Now in diplomatic circles they don't like to use the word "ultimatum" but they're going in with a message to the Taliban. They won't say what the message is but it is believed to be and sources tell us -- it is basically an ultimatum to the Taliban to turn over bin Laden in three days or face massive military strikes.

What has been going on at the president's residence today has been confidence building. He has been holding meetings -- President Musharraf has been holding meetings all day long with media leaders, with politicians, with religious leaders. Now each group is about 30 to 35 people. They have been coming in and out of the president's house all day. Basically what he has been doing has been outlining what the position of the government and how the level of cooperation with the United States is going to be basically filling them in and bringing them into his confidence.

We've also heard that the president sometime in the next 24 possibly 48 hours may address the nation here in Pakistan to brief them about what is going on and what is going to be planned.

But as we know it right now part of the deal for Pakistan's cooperation is economic assistance. There are U.S. sanctions against Pakistan right now. And Pakistan also has a $30 billion debt. They may be asking for some debt forgiveness. So it's not a one way street as far as the corporation with Pakistan goes.

But they're also saying that part of the package deal is asking that India and Israel not take part in any of the military strikes against Afghanistan. Now no word yet on whether any of these conditions are being met or what the details of the deal are. That's probably only going to come from the president and he probably hasn't been sharing it with the religious leaders that have been meeting at his house this afternoon. These meetings are expected to go late into the night here in Islamabad. And we're probably not going to hear from the president -- at least today because he's tied up in these -- in these meetings that are going to last all night. Paula?

ZAHN: OK. Tom are you able to hear me or not, right now? I think not -- we're losing your signal.

MINTIER: Yes, I can.

ZAHN: Oh, you can -- all right. Any update on the outflow of people -- folks leaving Afghanistan trying to get into Pakistan?

MINTIER: That is a real concern. I talked to the Head of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees based here in Islamabad last night. And there is a grave concern that the number of refugees streaming out of Afghanistan in a lead up to any -- a possibly military confrontation could be tremendous. They're repositioning supplies, moving tents in, trying to be able to process people as they come across the border.

The big fear UN-ACR is that Pakistan will do as the United States has requested, close its border with Afghanistan and prevent a lot of these people who are simply fleeing the fighting from finding safe refuge in Pakistan.

But there apparently is a lot of movement according to UN-ACR officials based in Afghanistan. A large number of refugees are making their way towards border crossings in Pakistan. Even if they do close the border it's a rather porous border in mountain areas that people can simply come across without coming through the checkpoints.

But as of right now they have been coming through the checkpoints in slightly larger numbers. One person told me about normally a trip that takes an hour took three hours down the road because it was clogged with people trying to make their way out of Afghanistan. Paula?

ZAHN: Tom, at the top of your report you confirmed what you have been reporting that you've gotten outside confirmation of what you've been reporting all morning long that this delegation of senior Pakistani officials is headed to Afghanistan. And while some people are sort of waltzing around it some people are calling it a warning that the Pakistani officials will give to the Taliban.

But your analysis suggested that there will be an ultimatum and threaten military strikes. What kind of strike is Pakistan capable of delivering right now against the rulers of that government?

MINTIER: Well, I think when you look at the number of nations that have diplomatic relations with the Taliban the Pakistanis can go into this meeting with a high level delegation -- with the high level Taliban leaders including Mullah Omar in Kandahar and really -- if there's going to be -- you know, going to be a wake up call for the Taliban it will be presented by the Pakistani delegation that goes in. Now I have no idea what the diplomatic message that they're carrying -- whether it's from the United States or from the president of Pakistan but they're clearly going to make a last ditch effort to convince the Taliban to do something, whether it's hand over Osama bin Laden, whether it's to take him into custody, to do something that will satisfy the international community and overt military action.

I have no idea what that message is but, as I said, we heard earlier on today that it was an ultimatum to hand over Osama bin Laden in three days or face the wrath of the international community. Paula?

ZAHN: OK, Tom Mintier, thanks so much for that update.

Right now I'm going to check in with Steve Harrigan who joins us from northern Afghanistan. Steve, does it appear as though the leaders of the Taliban government are taking this ultimatum that will be delivered tomorrow seriously?

STEVE HARRIGAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Paula, that's a question that we can't answer from our vantage point here. We are in the territory of northern Afghanistan. It's under control of the opposition -- these are opposition people here -- fighters who have been fighting against the Taliban for the past five years.

Now the opposition group just lost its leader a short time ago. General Massoud was assassinated. The opposition figures are linking that assassination to the terrorist attacks in the United States. They are calling for military action against their own country -- against Afghanistan and against the Taliban.

So no sign yet about a Taliban reaction to that ultimatum but here in the north people are calling for military action against Afghanistan and they say they would like to fight side by side with possible American soldiers in the region. Paula?

ZAHN: Steve, just about an hour or so ago I interviewed Dr. Abdullah Abdullah who is the leader of the Northern Alliance, which is the part of the country you said is under control of the opposition. And he expressed great cynicism about Pakistan's role in this whole process. He essentially said that Pakistan is posturing for more time. How widely held a view is that in your part of the country?

HARRIGAN: Well, keep in mind something about the opposition here. They control just about five percent of the country and their fighting force. Today themselves estimated at just 15,000. So you have to keep that in mind when talking about their opinions and what they say they're going to do. But the skepticism is real among the opposition here about Pakistan.

Dr. Abdullah's words off camera were even more severe than what he said to you on camera. He basically came out and told us a short while ago that his one message to U.S. President George W. Bush would be, "Do not trust Pakistan."

According to the opposition officials here it was Pakistan that created the Taliban and what they're doing now is stalling for time.

ZAHN: All right. Steve, you just reported that they might have a fighting force of 15,000 in the Northern Alliance. What kind of help could they provide the United States and any of -- members of the coalition that might be assisting the United States in trying to get Osama bin Laden?

HARRIGAN: So far opposition figures say the contact with the United States has been minimal so we're not sure at what level any meetings have taken place. But the opposition figures do say that they have experience for the past five years in fighting the Taliban, that they know the country, that they are Afghanis -- they know who is who, what is what, where is where, what objects would need to be attacked. Also that they have the experience and the dedication that they have lost thousands of lives in this fight and that they feel if any military action is taken in Afghanistan that they should be consulted.

ZAHN: Steve, the Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, just held a news conference basically repeating a message we've heard a lot over the last 24 hours or so that Americans must get ready for a prolonged campaign -- one that is not going to take days but years.

Are folks in the Northern Alliance expecting shots to be fired, bomb to be dropped?

HARRIGAN: They are and they're -- well, on one hand they do want to see action taken against the Taliban. There is also some real concern that the operation could go awry -- that civilian casualties could be high in such an operation.

These people are very used to warfare. Unfortunately when you walk around even the village that I'm in you can see the signs, the monuments, the wreckage of Soviet tanks, of Soviet armored personnel carriers really left to stand as monuments to the failure of large nations like the old Soviet Union who came here and tried to fight a war and after 10 years had to leave empty handed.

ZAHN: Steve, I don't know if you could hear Tom Mintier's report from Islamabad, Pakistan but he just reported there is a lot of confusion at the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan. Hundreds of thousands of people are expected to try to get out of that country. What can you tell us about any movement of Afghanis you've seen?

HARRIGAN: Well, in this part of the country -- in the north -- it's under control of the opposition. We have not seen that kind of panic. We have not seen people leaving for the borders. But keep in mind that we are in a village in what may be one of the remote corners of the world. We're surrounded by mountains and what's going on on the other side of this mountain I can't tell you.

So we haven't seen it. Really quite the contrary. What we've heard from opposition leaders is this crisis provides them with an opportunity -- an opportunity possibly to take the offensive against the Taliban. ZAHN: All right, Steve Harrigan, thank you so much for that report. Right now we head back to Washington, DC where John King is joined by Peter Bergen who has given us some really good analysis of what Osama bin Laden represents and an idea of what this campaign might look like if it's launched. Good morning, gentlemen.

JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right -- that's right, Paula. And we want to continue the same conversation. Peter joins us here and he can help us. Many Americans probably very unfamiliar with the political relationships just even within Afghanistan -- certainly between the Pakistan government and the Afghani government.

So a Pakistan delegation goes into the Taliban and says, "Give us Osama bin Laden?"

PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORIST ANALYST: Well, I mean, Pakistan, as Mr. Mintier pointed out, is really the only country which really has a lot of leverage over the Taliban but it's a sort of double edge leverage for the following reason. The Pakistani military and intelligence services were pretty instrumental in the Taliban's rise to power. So you've got different elements in the government -- some in the Pakistani government -- some which are actually quite in favor of the Taliban.

Yes, they have leverage but are they on side with the international community? That's one question that is worth examining.

Another thing that I think is important is that the Taliban is not a monolithic movement. In the late 90s there was a sort of moderating element in the Taliban. This year we've seen a much more harder line group taking over. But I talked to a senior Taliban official yesterday in fact and he said that there is a group inside the Taliban who basically are not in favor of the very hard line we've seen coming out of the Taliban.

So this delegation that's going in maybe able to negotiate with the group of moderates within the movement. We don't know if the ultimatum is really about.

I would find it very, very hard to believe that Pakistan would involve itself directly in some military operation. General Musharraf, the leader of the country, has to balance the fact that bin Laden is relatively popular in his own country, with the political realities that the international community wants him to be -- wants him to help out.

KING: We just heard from Steve Harrigan in the northern part of Afghanistan where the opposition is. Paula earlier today interviewed a key leadership figure in that opposition. Help us understand -- can the opposition within Afghanistan be helpful to the United States here in terms of intelligence about the bin Laden organization? And on the ground at all should there be military action? And I'll ask our viewers -- we have a helicopter flying overhead -- excuse the sound.

BERGEN: The Northern Alliance is going to be absolutely critical to whatever happens -- we'll have to wait for this helicopter I believe. The Northern Alliance is going to be absolutely critical to whatever the United States actually does. Here are the reasons why. The Northern Alliance has been fighting against the Taliban for -- since 1996. They have a real-time -- very good intelligence about bin Laden's organization.

I talked to Dr. Abdullah who was mentioned earlier. One of their main concerns in life has been what has bin Laden doing because bin Laden's forces have been fighting along side the Taliban for the past few years in a conventional manner so it's not just that bin Laden has a terrorist organization. He also has people who have been -- a number of troops perhaps estimated to be 400 -- they're called the zero five five brigade that have been fighting alongside the Taliban.

So the Northern Alliance is going to be a very good source of information about bin Laden and also about the country, which they know obviously intimately well.

KING: And quickly Vice President Cheney saying today that even if the Taliban or through some other means the United States were to come into possession, if you will, of Mr. bin Laden that that's not enough -- that this is a more sustained effort against terrorism. Words likely to be taken seriously?

BERGEN: Well, I mean, I think if Osama bin Laden managed to disappear from the planet tomorrow the problem obviously wouldn't be over although it would have an impact in the sense that he has the charisma, the coalition-building abilities that we've seen that it makes him significant. Nonetheless there are other people in the organization who are also vibrantly anti-American who we may not know -- who we may not know of now but we're going to find out more about them in coming days.

KING: All right. Peter Bergen our CNN Terrorism Expert -- thank you very much. We're going to back now to Paula Zahn in New York. As we do there's a lot of activity behind us here. Some helicopters in the air. We heard the Defense Secretary saying a bit ago Reagan National Airport will continue to be closed but several jetliners have taken off in recent hours. We believe that to be the repositioning of empty commercial jetliners at Reagan National Airport to other airports around the country. Paula?

ZAHN: OK, thanks so much John and Peter.

We tried to gauge the reaction internationally to some of the latest news, President Bush's declaration of war. And we sent our Martin Savidge down to Times Square to talk to folks who are visiting here from all over the world to see exactly what they're thinking, what they're feeling. And Martin joins us now from an area right in the middle of Times Square. Hi, Martin.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Paula. This is the first time actually that we have ventured away from ground zero and it is a remarkably different world. It's not to say that people here are not effected by what has happened it's just that they are effected in different ways and you see it in different ways and we'll be showing you that throughout the afternoon and the rest of the days as we're here.

As you mentioned, we wanted to talk with people with an international perspective. This is the crossroads of America sometimes referred to. It's also one of those places in the world you could call the crossroads internationally.

And this gentleman here, works for the Spanish newspaper "El Pies" -- it's one of the largest in all of Spain. And we thank you very much for talking to us. What are you readers thinking? What are they saying about all of this?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are completely mesmerized. They cannot believe what happened and are in suspension of disbelief -- very moved and, of course, thinking of what the reaction of the United States is going to be and what is going to happen next.

SAVIDGE: What is it you try to tell your readers? What are the stories you send back to them?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I started, of course, the very moment in which the news came in I was watching on TV the news in the morning and I saw these incredible images and we all -- the people in the United States and, of course, in Madrid started to work hard. And we reported the very first things that we saw, the reaction of the people, the fear of some communities that it could have a further backlash -- particularly the Muslims.

We've done -- I've done stories about the situation of the air industry. I was just speaking yesterday with my travel agent and he was telling me that it's going to be difficult for his business and at least a 10 percent loss of revenue and these things are going to continue for a long while.

SAVIDGE: Let me -- let me ask you this. The people of Spain obviously know as the people of the United States know that retaliation is coming. What will people say?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People are thinking -- I assume that people are thinking from what we are all reporting and from everything that we are listening and learning that it's going to be a very difficult task to deal with this situation. This is not a conventional war. This is a different kind of enemy. You are not going to have a clear- cut relation with the other side and even -- if you don't even know who the other people are how are you going to deal with them?

And are states supporting these (UNINTELLIGIBLE) terrorists groups. What kind of states -- some of the states are (UNINTELLIGIBLE) particularly states that are very (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

SAVIDGE: All right , we have to stop there. Thank you. Good luck in your reporting. We want to show you one of the images here quickly as we go -- flags obviously flying at half staff, digital flags wave very proudly over Times Square here -- Paula.

ZAHN: And Martin I know you've gone through the newspapers this morning. I don't have one I can actually -- you know what? Someone can -- well, I'll do it later. In many of the newspapers across the country there are fold-outs with printed American flags where they're being asked -- right there at the bottom there. Here we go -- here's one out of "The New York Times" that's asking people to place this in their windows in their place of employment to show their strong sense of resolve.

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