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CNN Sunday Morning

Thousands of Refugees Flee Afghanistan

Aired September 23, 2001 - 07:28   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: We want to turn now to what's shaping up to be a massive refugee crisis. Thousands of people are fleeing Afghanistan. They're seeking shelter from possible American air strikes after the Taliban's refusal to hand over suspected terrorist, Osama Bin Laden. Joining to help this morning understand all this, from Geneva, Switzerland, to talk about the refugee situation, Mr. Ruud Lubbers, the United Nations High Commissioner For Refugees.

Sir, thank you very much for joining us here on CNN this morning. Let's start first just by trying to put this into context. How many people are we talking about? What is the scope of what you believe to be a crisis?

RUUD LUBBERS, U.N. HIGH COMMISSIONER FOR REFUGEES: You first have to realize that already now there are one-and-a-half million refugees both in Pakistan and Iran. We are preparing for the possibility that that's the worst denial of an outflow of over a million. The situation today is that we are talking many thousands, which although the borders are formerly closed, try to get out of Afghanistan mainly to Pakistan.

We are preparing with Pakistan for big numbers when something really happens there. And certainly, for humanitarian reasons, they will work with us for temporary protection and assistance, as Iran will do. So we will go there in the their border areas, if possible of course, in Pakistan and Iran. But I don't exclude that in the border area, we'll have to find also safe places and securitized people there and give them assistance. So that's the picture today.

And then I'm not talking about a necessity not too long from now to give assistance to starving Afghans in Afghanistan itself. It's -- as you know, is now very close closed off to humanitarian workers but certainly we need to go there.

And finally, to give you the picture for all this -- sorry.

KING: Continue, I'm sorry, sir. I didn't mean to interrupt you.

LUBBERS: And, finally, for all of this -- sorry -- never mind. And, finally, of course, we need a sole support of what you might call a humanitarian alliance, which has to link up with the political alliance not only to fight terrorism but to take care of ordinary people and to give assistance and support. And for that is money needed, too.

It would be a great mistake I think to talk only in terms of attack on terrorists and not to think about the consequences for ordinary people. And so some generosity there is needed, too.

KING: Is there, sir, an inherent conflict between military planning and humanitarian relief in the sense that the United States is asking for facilities in Pakistan to stage military operations?

You want facilities to help refugees though the United States has asked Pakistanis and others to close down their borders you believe those borders must be left open so people can escape. Is there a conflict between the two?

LUBBERS: Not really. There might be a conflict in the reaction of the United States. And the military political sense would be so disproportional that it will create hundred thousands of refugees. I think it must be possible to work on policy options avoiding a disproportional reaction.

The second thing is that I hope at the very same time that the political -- say, military action is so effective that indeed again we can start to assist starving people within Afghanistan. So in that sense there is also a positive connection.

I think there is no competition between the two. It is -- it has to be brought together and it can be done if the humanitarian aspect, what I formulate in terms of the humanitarian alliance picks up with the political military one.

And it's doable and I do hope that especially Pakistan will play a positive role in all of that. They have a special responsibility given their relationship with their people in Afghanistan -- we are all talking Pashtunes there -- and that Iran plays a generous role. And I'm think they are starting to do that.

So I'm fighting hard not to see this only as a political military attack against terrorists but also as an effort for humanitarian assistance by giving a good reaction and by giving generous support to the work the humanitarian alliance has to do.

KING: Quickly, sir, help us understand the situation inside Afghanistan. Many western relief workers were evacuated under the threat of U.S. military strikes. We have seen the pictures. The Northern Alliance seeing an opportunity here. More military action within the country and because of the civil strike.

How many people on the ground do you have in there? And is there any way with certainty to get relief to people within the country of Afghanistan right now?

LUBBERS: A few quick remarks on that. Firstly, the eight humanitarian aide workers -- those of UN organizations and NGOs had to go out. Very few are still there -- Red Cross and many -- and a few others but not many. So this is a terrible situation which cannot go on for a long time. Secondly, people are moving out in thousands. Yes, it's true. But it's also true, as you said, that there is fighting in the north -- more fighting than there was earlier. It's General Dustune (ph), which chooses to take over the role of the SSC native leader of the Northern Alliance.

And that might be very relevant for what's happening. On the one hand more people will have to flee because there's fighting in the north. At the same time it could play a role in crippling the rule of Taliban in Afghanistan.

KING: Ruud Lubbers, the UN High Commissioner for Refugees -- sir, we thank you for your time.

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