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CNN Sunday Morning

Interview With Jacqueline Cabasso

Aired November 18, 2001 - 09:17   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN ANCHOR: At his Texas ranch summit with Vladimir Putin, President Bush agreed to reduce the U.S. nuclear arsenal by two-thirds over the next decade, and that's a pretty significant step. But days later we learned from documents that terrorists left behind in Kabul, that the al Qaeda was plotting to build nuclear weapons. Is the world any safer today from nuclear threats?

We'll get some perspective now from Jacqueline Cabasso. She is the executive director of the Western States Legal Foundation, a group that monitors nuclear weapons around the globe.

Good morning to you.

JACQUELINE CABASSO, WESTERN STATES LEGAL FOUNDATION: Good morning.

SAVIDGE: Well, I guess we have sort of talked about this question in the lead-in here. Are we any safer? We find out there's good news and bad news out there. Do we feel safer?

CABASSO: I don't feel any safer. I think this is one of the most dangerous moments we've had in a very long time with respect to the nuclear threat, not only because of the potential for al Qaeda or other sub-national groups to obtain nuclear weapons, but also because of the extraordinary and still overwhelming nuclear capabilities of the United States and the other nuclear-weapon states, and the constellation of nuclear weapon states in the region where the conflict is underway now.

And I have to say that the announcement from the Crawford Ranch, while encouraging, was very illusory because it really does not address the overall numbers in the U.S. stockpile. It doesn't address the launch-on-warning posture of the nuclear stockpile. And it doesn't address tactical nuclear weapons and other new kinds of nuclear weapons which are under development now by the United States -- weapons that are really tailored to be used in situations like the one that we're currently dealing with in Afghanistan.

So it's really a very frightening time in terms of nuclear weapons. The result of really inattention to this very serious problem, particularly since the end of the Cold War.

SAVIDGE: Well now obviously we are focusing on it, particularly when it comes to the issue of terrorism and nuclear weapons. How do we know, or how do we even try to investigate whether al Qaeda has any sort of nuclear device?

CABASSO: Well, it's very problematic. For one thing, there is no kind of international registry of fissile materials; that is, those kinds of special nuclear materials that are necessary to make nuclear weapons.

So the world does not know how much of these materials there are. Therefore, it's very hard to know how much of it may be missing in any given case. That's complicated by the fact that these materials are literally strewn all over the world in thousands of locations, the by- products of both nuclear weapons production and testing, and also of civilian nuclear power and nuclear research reactors which exist in more than 44 countries around the world.

So it is an immense global problem...

SAVIDGE: It is.

CABASSO: ... with no easy solution.

SAVIDGE: Does your group monitor the people who would have, let's say, the expertise to develop and work on such a device?

CABASSO: Well, that's an interesting question, because we closely monitor the nuclear weapons laboratories here in the United States -- Los Alamos, Lawrence Livermore and Sandia. But through our work looking at those institutions, we've discovered extensive collaborations among nuclear weapons scientists around the world.

So yes, we are familiar with the problems in the Soviet nuclear weapons laboratories and other nuclear weapons establishments around the world.

SAVIDGE: And as a result of that, have you seen anything that has concerned you, raised a red flag that someone might be helping Osama bin Laden?

CABASSO: Well, actually, what I have found is that there's been an extensive collaboration, paradoxically, between the U.S. and the Russian laboratories which pre-exist -- sorry, it existed before the end of the Cold War. And actually the United States has been providing financial support to those institutions for many years.

So I don't think that the situation, as far as Soviet-era nuclear weapons scientists looking for work is as dire as has been predicted by some.

On the other hand it is, of course, a source of concern. Nuclear weapons knowledge is part of the equation necessary to make nuclear weapons, as well as the materials.

Having said that, you know, I try to not approach this from a hysterical point of view. It is not easy either to obtain or handle sufficient special nuclear materials to make a nuclear weapon, and it's not easy to build or deliver a nuclear weapon. These require, you know, knowledge, sophistication, materials, the ability to have large equipment, you know, not necessarily easily hidden.

SAVIDGE: Yes, all right. Well, we hope that you will continue to monitor the situation, and we will continue to stay in touch with you about it. Thank you very much...

CABASSO: Thank you.

SAVIDGE: ... Jacqueline Cabasso. She is with the Western States Legal Foundation.

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