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CNN Sunday Morning

Questions Still Unanswered in Flight 63 Incident

Aired December 23, 2001 - 08:01   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: A harrowing in-flight incident has landed one man in jail and ignited a mystery. Federal authorities are questioning a man who apparently tried to light the laces to his shoes, containing suspected explosives. That set off a brawl aboard an American Airlines' flight from Paris to Miami. The plane was diverted to Boston, and the big question now: Did those shoes contain explosives?

CNN's Kathleen Koch joins us now from Boston's Logan International Airport with more.

Good morning, Kathleen.

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Kyra.

And no answer to that question yet. Basically the story is -- as far as what we know as to what occurred -- was that there was no sign of trouble at all when the flight left Paris, down from Miami yesterday, with 185 passengers and 12 crew on board. At some time over the Atlantic during the flight, a flight attendant smelled a sulfury smell, and she spotted a very tall man -- about six-foot-four inches tall -- in row 29, with long dark hair, attempted -- as he said -- to light his shoes on fire.

Well she, and passengers onboard, who related to CNN happened, immediately tackled the man.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

THIERRY DUGEON, PASSENGER: He tried to light up this match to kind of like put his own shoe on fire and explode. And -- and so the nearest passengers saw it and like grabbed him and tried to put him under control and maintain him on his seat and that kind of stuff. And then we were like three, four, five -- I don't remember exactly how many of us there were on the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- like grab his hands, arms, keep him sitting in his -- in his seat. And after that, we like tied him up with everything that we had, like belts from which -- belts from passengers.

QUESTION: Was he struggling?

DUGEON: Yes, he was struggling. He was like a pretty big guy.

(END VIDEO CLIP) KOCH: Now two doctors on board the flight sedated the suspect to keep him under the control for the remainder of the flight. When the aircraft landed here in Boston, it was escorted down by Air Force F- 15s, and the man was taken into custody by the FBI. His passport identified him as Richard Reid, but that passport was issued about three weeks ago in Belgium, and authorities expect that it may be fake.

Now during the melee, apparently two flight attendants were injured. One of them received a bite to the hand and she was treated at a Boston hospital upon arrival and was released. Now authorities here have -- have X-rayed those shoes and have that there were holes drilled in the heels of the shoes, there was some detonator wire, and some sort of substance that -- that appeared that might have been C-4 explosives. That's a very powerful military-grade explosive; it's very malleable and soft. It can be kind of molded into any shape or form.

The shoes were taken from the plane; they were rendered harmless. And the substance is now being analyzed at an FBI lab. They still have not determined exactly what it was. One interesting note, there are now reports in the Boston Globe, and some wire reports, that this very same man, on Friday, tried to board this same flight, flight 63, from Paris to Miami -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Wow. Kathleen Koch, thank you so much -- Miles.

KOCH: You're welcome.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: The tales those passengers have told are harrowing, to say the least. We've caught up with yet another passenger who was involved in subduing that suspect in that flight from Paris to Miami. Kwame James joins us now from Miami.

Welcome to the program, sir.

KWAME JAMES, PASSENGER: Welcome to you and everyone else watching.

O'BRIEN: All right, thank you. Tell us where you were sitting and what you saw.

JAMES: Well, I was about 10 -- 10 rows ahead of all what that happened. And I looked back and there was just a whole melee going on. Do at first I thought someone was like having a seizure or something. But then a flight attendant approached me and said, We need some help.

So I ran back there and we started wrestling with him -- me and about three or four other guys -- and he was just, I mean, unbelievably strong. We held him down and then eventually a doctor came and gave him an injection that -- to try to subdue him and stuff. And we pretty much had to tie him up with belts and everything we could get our hands on to tie someone up.

O'BRIEN: How many people were involved in subduing him, Mr. James? And, as I understand it, you're a professional basketball player. I assume you have a little bit of height. For you to say it was difficult to subdue him, I suspect he must have been a very powerful person.

JAMES: Yes, I would say he was about six-four, 220. And I'm about six-eight, 220 -- 225, 230. And it took me and three or four other guys just to hold him down. He almost seemed possessed.

O'BRIEN: Did you hear him say anything before, during or after this whole incident?

JAMES: When we got him kind of calmed down, I asked him a couple questions like -- me and the other guys -- like, why this, and all that stuff. And he told us, We'll all see.

O'BRIEN: "We'll all see," is what he said?

JAMES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: Did you have any -- and kind of an ominous statement right there. Did you have any way of confirming, one way or another, if, in fact, he had something funny -- his shoes rigged up in some way that they might contain explosives?

JAMES: I really couldn't speculate on that. I really don't know. I just knew that they took the shoes away and, you know, you could smell that something was in the air that was burning or something. But I couldn't tell you what it was, or I didn't really get to see it.

O'BRIEN: People's reactions on that flight are commendable, to say the least. Did you -- was there much time to think about, or were you all just sort of operating, if you will, on -- on auto pilot?

JAMES: There definitely wasn't any time to think. It was kind of like, is this really happening. Then, yes, it's happening. And do something. In that order, really. So -- I mean, there was an Italian guy, who there was no fear in. And he was one of the first guys to jump on him and hold him down. Then we came and started wrestling him to really hold him down.

So a lot of people showed a lot of bravery, and even the people that didn't help out physically, they just remained calm. That really kept the situation under control.

O'BRIEN: Do you have any idea of his nationality?

JAMES: No, I couldn't tell you. I've heard through the grapevine he had a British passport, but I couldn't tell you his nationality.

O'BRIEN: All right. Finally, I assume you were a bit concerned when you got on the plane given all that is going on in the world this time of year. Are you reluctant to get back on another airliner?

JAMES: Actually, I was in route to Trinidad to see my family and my girlfriend and stuff. So, yes and no. You know, I have a lot of big things and people that I love and that I want to see. So, I have -- I almost to have to get back on a plane and I can't let this affect me as far as traveling and stuff. I play basketball, so I do a lot of traveling as it is, anyway.

O'BRIEN: All right. Kwame James, thank you very much for joining us from Miami.

JAMES: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: We wish you well in all of your travels.

JAMES: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: All right -- Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Well, no one is suggesting a connection with yesterday's events at this point. But the Federal Aviation Administration, last month, did issue a holiday season warning that reads in part, quote: "We are concerned that hijackers may attempt to smuggle disassembled weapons on board an airliner by hiding weapons components in their shoes. This method of weapons concealment has been demonstrated in the past by non-terrorist related hijackers."

It continues, "In May, 2000, the hijacker of Philippines Airlines 812 successfully smuggled a handmade pistol on board the flight by disassembling it and concealing it within his shoes." Now this circular is distributed to airlines and airline security personnel only.

O'BRIEN: Now let's get some perspective from the cockpit. Retired Major General Don Shepperd from the -- to our CNN viewers as our military analyst -- excuse me -- also has served as a commercial airline captain for TWA, specifically. Also flies F-15s, the type of F-15s -- matter of fact, the particular wing that intercepted this very 767 was under his command at one time.

General Shepperd, good to have you with us again.

MAJ. GEN. DON SHEPPERD (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Good morning, Miles.

And a little correction there. I wasn't -- I never made it to captain with TWA. I left long before that and I was the air commander of a unit there in the F-15s at Otis (ph).

O'BRIEN: All right, well if it was my ability, I would have given you the promotion in both cases, General Shepperd.

All right, first of all, let's talk about what went on in that airliner. As we listen to some of those passengers, it's quite a harrowing tale. And my hat is tipped to them all the way they acted. Would you go along with that?

SHEPPERD: I would, indeed. And I'll tell you, if you cause a raucous on an airplane these days, someone the size of Kwame James -- that you just interviewed -- is going to be on you. And I'll tell you what, it's -- it's dangerous, because any kind of ruckus in the back of an airplane, you're going to have heroic flight attendants and heroic passengers. The whole seen has changed.

It used to be, get the airplane on the ground, be quiet, sort it out on the ground. And now, it's attack and subdue these people any time anything happens.

O'BRIEN: Yes. And I'm sure that in this case as well -- although we don't know this for a fact yet -- the captain and the first officer, they probably stayed right up behind that closed door in the cockpit.

SHEPPERD: Yes, it seems like that's the best thing you can do these days. Again, the captain is always in command and always makes the final call about what to do and where to go. But the idea is, you keep the cockpit secure; you let the back end handle what's going on in the back end. They will keep you informed over the interphone, and then get it on the ground as soon as possible.

O'BRIEN: Very likely, of course, there would have been a relief pilot back in the passenger cabin on a flight of this length. I assume that the crew would have been involved in all of this. As you talk to your aviation friends -- as we look at this picture, you can see the F-15s fly through here in just a moment, I believe -- as you talk to your colleagues in aviation, have they told you what they're doing either -- either officially or unofficially these days in the wake of 9/11?

SHEPPERD: No, again -- again, the thinking has changed, and the idea is you're not going to go back in the back of the airplane if you're in the cockpit. Let's just get this thing on the ground. And, again, I think aviation has never been safer than it has been. But something like this incident brings up all sorts of ways that people can be innovative in trying to do damage.

A C-4 explosive is not going to show up on a metal detector; it's still a dangerous compound. Dog-sniffing dogs can sniff this stuff, and there are other ways that -- coming up, that are more sophisticated, but it's going to take a time -- it's going to take time to install all these exotic machines that will tell us everything that could be on a person. So it's -- it just changes the whole world about what's going to go on.

O'BRIEN: Help people understand for a moment, it doesn't take an awful lot of C-4 explosive with an airliner at 35,000 or 40,000 feet to cause a real problem.

SHEPPERD: No. Let's talk about C-4 explosive just a second. It's a very stable compound under normal circumstances. In Vietnam, you used to carry it in about half inch by one inch by 12-inch long packages. You could carry several packages in a pack. It was used to explode ordnance, booby traps, that type of thing.

Now, you set it off with a small explosion -- a blasting cap, if you will. They even used to cut small pieces of it off to heat C- rations. In other words, you could set it on fire and it won't explode as long as you don't try to stamp it out.

So, basically, you need a blasting cap. I'm not sure that what this guy was trying to do by lighting a fuse would have set it off. But lighting a fuse to a blasting cap would have. And a third of a pound of C-4 explosive is enough to bring down a reasonable sized building. So it's very, very dangerous stuff. And if it goes off inside an airplane, you can't predict where it will go off, but it could do an awful lot of damage and possibly even bring the airplane down, depending upon how much was set off.

O'BRIEN: All right. We should point out we don't have it confirmed, one way or another, whether there was C-4 inside his shoe. That's what we're -- at least, what the initial reports have indicated.

Major General Don Shepperd, as always, thank you for your help and insights. We appreciate it.

SHEPPERD: It's a pleasure.

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