Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Sunday Morning
Interview with Steve Malzberg, Nancy Skinner,
Aired January 27, 2002 - 08:32 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Well, from the morning's top stories now to the top stories this week, Enron and the Middle East were just two of the stories that had us talking this morning as well. Our guests this morning will help us wrap up the week in the news. Steve Malzberg is a talk show host for New York's WABC radio. And Nancy Skinner is co-host of the nationally syndicated Doug Steven's Good Day Program (ph). Welcome to you both this morning.
STEVE MALZBERG, WABC RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Hi, Miles.
NANCY SKINNER, SYNDICATED TALK SHOW HOST: Hi, Miles. Good morning.
O'BRIEN: Good to have you.
Let's talk -- we've been talking about these detainees all morning. Detainees, prisoners, whatever you want to call them. And, obviously, that's an important point. Nancy, ladies first. What should the U.S. do? There's clearly a perception problem and an image problem at the very least.
SKINNER: Yeah, Miles, I don't understand the situation here. Why do we want to lose the moral high ground? Let's not -- let's just say to our friends and allies, "OK, they're POWs and we're going to go by the book here and we're going to try them according to the rules of the Geneva Convention." Really, what we're saying is -- when Secretary Rumsfeld said that while they're unlawful combatants, that's the verdict, not the charge. We will find out what their role was and how culpable they are and what their punishment should be at some point. But right now, what do we have to lose by calling them prisoners of war and affording them all the protections of the constitution?
Why (UNINTELLIGIBLE) moral high ground?
MALZBERG: I'll tell you exactly -- I'll tell you...
O'BRIEN: Steve, isn't it true that if we call them POWs we can't interrogate them the same way?
MALZBERG: That's exactly what we have to lose...
O'BRIEN: Yeah. MALZBERG: ... and it seems so obvious right on its face. The whole purpose of bringing them here was to interrogate them and to find out what they knew and try to prevent more September 11ths. And by making the POWs...
SKINNER: But why can't you interrogate them?
MALZBERG: Because a prisoner of war only under the Geneva Convention are supposed to give and be asked their name, rank and serial number, and don't have to answer any other questions. Now, if you're suggesting that just calling them prisoners of war doesn't put them under the Geneva Convention, then that's not correct. And once we are under the Geneva Convention, then we're limited in what we can do.
Look, it's good enough for me that a bunch of congressmen and senators went down there, saw the conditions in which they're living in right now, and said that it was fine. Dick Cheney said they're living in conditions that are too good for them.
SKINNER: Well, OK...
(CROSSTALK)
MALZBERG: I don't have -- I don't have any...
SKINNER: ... because they're getting pita bread, OK, so everybody says...
(CROSSTALK)
MALZBERG: What would you like them to have, Nancy?
SKINNER: They're giving them pita bread, so what's the problem? They're eating pita bread. Now listen, the point is we have to lead -- we have to have the moral high ground to lead this...
MALZBERG: We have the moral high ground.
SKINNER: Steve, let me finish my point. To lead this global coalition against terrorism, we have to have it. We don't have it, no. We don't have it. The Brits are upset, other countries are upset. So, listen, we can ask them, we can interrogate them, we can ask them to turn evidence just like we do with other...
(CROSS TALK)
O'BRIEN: Yeah, but -- no, no, no -- Nancy, Nancy -- Nancy, Nancy...
SKINNER: ... or else they will face very severe (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
O'BRIEN: Nancy, let me just dive in here. Let me dive in here. I was reading the Geneva Convention this morning, as I often do on Sunday mornings... SKINNER: Yeah.
O'BRIEN: ... and one of the things that it says -- it's right out of the "Stalag 13" (ph) or "The Bridge on the River Kwai (ph)," name, rank and serial number is all they have to give up.
MALZBERG: That's it.
O'BRIEN: And if you're going to go by the Geneva Convention, you have to go by those rules, and that certainly undermines the effort.
SKINNER: No, that's in terms of what they are required to give. But you can say, "Listen, buddy, you want to avoid the death penalty? Here's what we need." I'll tell you what, we can't decide who is a prisoner of war and who is not.
MALZBERG: Yes we can.
SKINNER: We are party -- we are parties...
MALZBERG: Excuse me -- excuse me...
(CROSS TALK)
SKINNER: No, no. Let me finish my statement. We are parties to the convention, we signed it. That is our word. All we have is our word when it comes to international matters.
MALZBERG: All right. This is a new kind of war, as the president told us from the beginning.
SKINNER: Oh, so, OK, let's forget...
MALZBERG: Excuse me, could I finish? Could I finish?
SKINNER: Sure, go ahead.
MALZBERG: With a new kind of war, these men don't fight for a country. They are terrorists, they are soldiers of terrorist people who want to come here and infiltrate our society and blow us to bits when we walk in the streets.
SKINNER: Yeah, bad guys. Bad guys.
MALZBERG: Take a look at what happened in Israel today because that's -- that's how -- no good guys, right Nancy? Look at what happened in Israel today. That's our future if we don't stomp out and stamp out these terrorists.
O'BRIEN: All right, you've led us to the next subject. We should move on because we're not going to settle this one.
SKINNER: All right. Yes.
O'BRIEN: Let's talk about the Middle East. Arafat topped this week circulating within the administration apparently about severing ties outright to Yasser Arafat. We just had Ambassador Richard Murphy on. He said that would be a very bad idea, kind of cutting of your nose to spite your face kind of thing.
Nancy, what do you think? Should we cut off ties completely?
SKINNER: No, absolutely. You know, we have a stake in seeing that peace is achieved and getting on one side of this thing completely, 100 -- and we already are predominantly on the side of Israel. But completely severing ties is ridiculous. And, I'll tell you what, you know, this all stemmed from the fact that we were -- someone in Israel intercepted a shipment of arms to the Palestinians. I must say, although Arafat said he was going to seek peace and it is hypocritical, we arm Israel to the T...
MALZBERG: Oh, cut it out, Nancy. Nancy...
SKINNER: So for us to say, "Wait a minute. Oh my God, they're arming themselves," is a bit hypocritical. And then (UNINTELLIGIBLE), when we spend $3 zillion (ph) dollars a year, most of which goes to armed Israel, we have to be an even mediator.
MALZBERG: All right. No, you can't be an even mediator when one of the parties involved is a terrorist. One of the leaders is Osama bin Laden II. This Yasser Arafat -- first of all, the problem with getting the weapons is that he signed a little thing called the Oslo Accords (ph) eight years ago, and that's against what's in the accords. He hasn't lived up to one thing he signed in the Oslo Accords (ph).
So let me ask you this, do you think the United States would put up with what Israel was putting up with if right over the Canadian border they were doing to us what the Palestinians are doing to them?
SKINNER: No. You know what...
MALZBERG: They'd be in there, they'd wipe them up and that would be the end of it.
SKINNER: ... absolutely. The terrorism -- Steve...
MALZBERG: No more terrorists.
SKINNER: Steve, it's not so black and white.
MALZBERG: Oh yes it is. Yes it is.
SKINNER: OK? It is -- I mean, it is -- listen, yes, there are these terrorists -- I was there in February and I was there -- I left Tel Aviv -- as a bomb hit in Tel Aviv, I was leaving town. I understand how that feels. But for the United States to take one side and say we wash our hands and go get them and destroy the Palestinians, you don't know what...
MALZBERG: The terrorists -- the terrorists...
SKINNER: ... conflicts -- Steve, let me finish. What happens? What's the feedback loop out of that? What happens...
(CROSSTALK)
MALZBERG: What do you mean -- why do you...
SKINNER: ... what happens to the rest of the Arab world and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) coalition against terrorism?
MALZBERG: Why are you so worried about feedback and what Britain thinks and what this one thinks?
SKINNER: It's called a little thing (UNINTELLIGIBLE) World War III, Steve.
(CROSSTALK)
MALZBERG: We have to -- could you be quiet for a second? We have to do what's right. And the president said there are no good terrorists and no bad terrorists. And if you harbor terrorists, you are a terrorist.
SKINNER: How about Saudi Arabia?
O'BRIEN: All right, let's leave it there. Let's leave it there. I'm going to have to get that bell they use on TALK BACK LIVE.
All right, let's -- John Walker or John Walker Lindh, whichever you prefer, his name seems to change every week. What are your thoughts on that and should he be treated with some degree of sympathy? There's a lot of people there who, you know, feel he should be tried for treason. Which, of course, is something that carries a death penalty.
Nancy, why don't you dive in? I think Steve was the last to talk.
SKINNER: Sympathy? No, absolutely not. I think he was an adult and he knew what he was doing. Having said that, he's still an American citizen, he should not be stripped of his citizenship because we don't like him. That's a slippery slope that could happen to anyone who opposes the government. And what we should do is use the constitution, try him on something. Try him -- aiding and abetting terrorists -- and hope we have the evidence.
If we don't, and we can't do it under our system and our law, well that's terrible. But that's what makes this country great. And we can't just get all mad and say, "Let's get him and rip up the constitution in the process."
MALZBERG: Nancy -- Nancy's going to have him hosting the Emmys in about four years.
SKINNER: That's not what I said (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
O'BRIEN: Maybe it's not too much of a stretch here, but this does kind of relate to the detainee issue, in the sense that, doesn't the U.S. have an obligation to always take the extra step to do the right thing and to make sure that even the perception of being untrue to our constitution is a bad idea? Would you (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?
MALZBERG: Well, how are they being untrue here?
SKINNER: Absolutely.
O'BRIEN: Well, I don't know. I'm just -- I'm just throwing it out there. I mean...
MALZBERG: Yeah, I mean, they're trying him in the criminal court system. He's got his lawyer, he saw his mommy, who says, "Oh, he loves his country." Nancy, it's almost comedic when she says, "Oh, this could happen to anyone who doesn't really like the government of this country. I don't think so.
SKINNER: What I said, Steve...
MALZBERG: Look at the steps this man took.
SKINNER: ... what I said was you cannot strip him of his citizenship, which I bet you want to do, because...
MALZBERG: I think he's a traitor, absolutely.
SKINNER: So, OK -- so then who -- McCarthy tried to take the citizenship away of so-called communists. Where does that stop...
MALZBERG: Excuse me...
SKINNER: ... when we can so easily say, "You're doing something that we oppose. We (UNINTELLIGIBLE) you."
O'BRIEN: Nancy, don't you think the case against John Walker Lindh is a little stronger than McCarthy had against many of the so- called Reds of the 50s?
SKINNER: Well, I'm just saying it's not a policy you want to start. We do not, as a policy...
MALZBERG: Oh, you don't? No?
SKINNER: ... want to start stripping United States citizens of their citizenship so that we can try them in military tribunals, no.
MALZBERG: You know what, when they start fighting against our Army overseas against us, I think that's a pretty good time to start.
O'BRIEN: All right, let's -- let's end it on Enron. It just gets uglier and uglier in Houston, you know, and sad, too. I mean, we're dealing with the suicide now of vice chairman. It's hard to come away from this with any shred of optimism for what's going to happen. You have thousands of employees who invested their life savings in stock that the upper echelon new was just bogus and (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
Where does it lead, though? Is there another Enron out there do you think?
MALZBERG: Oh, absolutely.
O'BRIEN: Go ahead, Nancy. Do you want to do -- Nancy, you go first.
SKINNER: Yes. OK, I think really what's at stake here is the underpinning of our whole financial system if we don't get this right. If we don't completely and fully investigate not only what happened at Enron, but how it was allowed to happen through campaign contributions and all the -- it's not what happened after they made those desperate calls, it's what led up to that.
O'BRIEN: So it's a -- is it a -- Nancy...
SKINNER: All the favors they got and how this all happened and the insidious relationship with both their auditors and the SEC who let them have consulting contracts, and the regulators who let things go. We have to get to the bottom of all of this, straighten it out wherever the chips may fall -- even if it falls in the lap of the Bush administration -- to ensure that our whole financial system is protected.
O'BRIEN: All right. So, you see it as a political scandal more than a business scandal?
SKINNER: No, both. Both.
O'BRIEN: Both? OK. Steve, business scandal or political scandal?
MALZBERG: I think business scandal, and wherever the legalities fall, those responsible should land in jail if that's what it calls for. But even if it lands in the lap of the Bush administration, how about if it lands in the lap of the Clinton administration?
SKINNER: Fine.
MALZBERG: Let's look at the history there. Let's call Mac McClarty (ph), the president's former chief of staff, who lobbied India to give them a $3 billion power plant, Enron. Four days it was approved, guess what, $100,000 contribution into the bank of the DNC (ph) by Kenneth Lay.
SKINNER: Fine.
MALZBERG: McClarty (ph) then works for Enron.
(CROSSTALK)
SKINNER: Hey, Steve, let's look at all of it, including what went into that energy plan. And, according to Congressman Waxman, things were changed specifically for Enron. Let's look at every single one. Clinton's ties, Bush's ties, and let the chips fall where they may, absolutely.
MALZBERG: I agree. I agree.
O'BRIEN: All right. Steve, you have to go do a little radio program.
MALZBERG: Yes.
O'BRIEN: Sort of your day job. So we're going to cut you loose here. It was an excellent conversation.
MALZBERG: Good seeing you.
O'BRIEN: We invite you -- we hope you'll both come back again some time soon.
SKINNER: Definitely.
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: Once again, I always say this is better than a cup of coffee on a Sunday morning (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
MALZBERG: Bye, Nancy.
O'BRIEN: Steve Malzberg, Nancy Skinner, a pleasure to have you both with us on CNN SUNDAY MORNING.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
