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CNN Sunday Morning

Interview with Richard Murphy

Aired January 27, 2002 - 08:06   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: More than 100 people have been injured in the explosion in the Middle East. CNN's Jerrold Kessel in Jerusalem, and he joins us with the latest -- Jerrold.

JERROLD KESSEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Miles, and an all too familiar scene for Israelis on their streets, as a suicide bomber lets off explosives in the middle of downtown Jerusalem this time, and the latest casualty figures we've just been hearing moments ago from Israeli hospitals, one Israeli killed and more than 100 treated in the hospital. Many of them only for shock and light injuries, but at least two in serious condition and 10 reported in fairly serious condition.

And the latest news we've just heard just moments ago -- literally on the Israeli radio -- saying that the police are now investigating the possibility that the bomber may have been a woman. But we have not been able to identify that -- to firm that independently from the Israeli police. That, a report from an Israeli radio station. But this familiar scene, as I say, will be rescue services rushing to the scene, fairing (ph) the wounded away to the hospital, explosive experts quickly on the scene to make sure that there were no other bombs in the area.

And the police worry that there may have been an accomplice to the bomber like there was in Tel Aviv, the last such suicide bombing 48 hours ago, which wounded more than 20 Israelis, when the suicide bomber who blew himself up was accompanied, Israeli police say, by another man who was to have shot his automatic weapon at rescue services who arrived on the scene. No indication of why -- he didn't actually do the shooting. But, today, the Israeli police seem to be saying that the bomber acted alone.

Now we shall (ph) try to ascertain whether it was a Palestinian man or woman, but the Israeli Police saying absolutely a suicide bombing, which has killed one Israeli and wounded more than 100 in downtown Jerusalem. The scene of very many such attacks over the last several weeks and months.

The Palestinian authority quick to issue a condemnation of this attack, as it often does against civilians. But the Israeli authorities -- the news of the latest bombing came as Ariel Sharon's cabinet was convening for its weekly meeting. The Israeli government is having nothing of that condemnation, and laying the blame squarely at the door of Yasser Arafat. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAANAN GISSIN, SHARON SPOKESMAN: Well, I think the Palestinian people and the Palestinian leadership have reached a moment of truth and they have to make a decision. And we are not going to allow ourselves to become -- continued to be victims of this terrorist campaign. Arafat has a clear choice to make. Does he want to lead his people on the path to freedom, to peace, to life? Or, does he continue to lead him on the path to death, which is senselessness. Nothing is going to come out of it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KESSEL: And the tension will now be fixed on how and in what way Israel retaliates. And this latest attack does come in the context of an ongoing tactical tit for tat battle between Israeli and Palestinian attacks which have led and brought such death and destruction. But there's also a sense that this conflict is now moving onto a plane of a decisive, strategic battle, especially as it comes at a time when there has been such a major significant shift -- political shift -- in Washington toward the Palestinian authority -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: All right, decisive, strategic battle. That sounds like a significant turn of events. CNN's Jerrold Kessel in Jerusalem, thank you very much for joining us.

The ongoing violence in the Middle East creates a diplomatic dilemma for the Bush administration, to put it lightly. The president is working to put more pressure on Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat. A number of options under consideration, including cutting ties outright with the Palestinian leader.

Former Assistant Secretary of State Richard Murphy joining us now from New York to talk a little bit about this. Ambassador Murphy, good to have you with us again.

RICHARD MURPHY, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE: Thank you, Miles.

O'BRIEN: What Jerrold Kessel just said really struck me. This decisive strategic battle, this shift that is underway there, it sounds very ominous.

MURPHY: Well, I don't know what it means. I see a continued decay, a continued spiral downward into violence, which is numbing people. I don't know what new initiatives the Israeli government or the Palestine authority may be planning. It's hard to imagine.

O'BRIEN: All right. A lot of talk this past week about the Bush administration trying to come up with ways to respond. And one of the things that is apparently at least on the agenda for action items is to sever ties outright with the PLO between the U.S. Does that seem like a likely scenario to you?

MURPHY: I would hope not. I don't think it's a likely scenario, because I don't see what any -- how anyone could argue that that will be a plus. Arafat is isolated; the administration has kept its distance from him ever since it came into office last January. You recall the decision by the president not to meet with Arafat, not even to shake his hand or acknowledge his presence at the United Nations last fall. So cutting ties, you know, it just doesn't make sense.

Powell has been on the telephone in contact with Arafat these last few days. Has made it very plain he wants to see more action against terrorism. But staying at least in that degree of touch I think is absolutely essential.

O'BRIEN: Is it accurate to say that Israel would actually prefer to have Arafat where he is right now, in a weakened position, quite literally under house arrest in Ramallah?

MURPHY: Personally, I think that is the position of General Sharon, the Israeli Prime Minister. He doesn't want to make any more of a martyr out of Arafat. Killing him, forcing him out of the country, putting him in exile, this happened after Beirut in '82 (UNINTELLIGIBLE). He has blown up his radio station, he's destroyed a number of symbolic targets, such as the Gaza Airport and seaport. I think he's -- his aim appears to be humiliation that will so weaken him that perhaps some of the Palestinians will be brought forward by the Palestine community.

O'BRIEN: It's sort of a gambit, isn't it? Because if it fails, it creates the atmosphere which you just described, where Palestinians are simply emboldened against the Israelis.

MURPHY: I think it's -- so far, it's simply uniting the Palestinians. They have their reservations about Arafat as a leader, but there's no one of them apparently that's come up and said, "I'm the -- I'm the replacement. Let me do the job. He's no longer capable of doing it." They're united behind him.

O'BRIEN: Well, there is talk of people who could step into his shoes. These aren't really what you would consider bonafide (ph) potential successors?

MURPHY: I think he's arranged the stage such -- in such a way that there is no one or stature pushing to step into his shoes. If he is pushed out of the country, if he is liquidated, assassinated, there will be a successor. An interim successor has been designated, Abul Masin (ph), but no one of any charisma, of any authority, has come up form the ranks ready to step into his shoes.

O'BRIEN: Clearly, the Israelis have proven they can target just about everything around Yasser Arafat -- his helicopters, his guards, his airports. Do you think that there would ever be -- could you conjure up a scenario where the Israelis would actually target Arafat himself?

MURPHY: Well, I don't think so. I believe that the -- the preference is to keep him there and to show him up as unable to do anything. And, yet, at the same time, hold him responsible for doing everything, for allowing everything to happen in the way of violence and terrorism. O'BRIEN: Is it fair for the Israelis to hold Arafat responsible for every suicide bomber who goes down to Jaffa Street and blows himself up?

MURPHY: No. I think what's happened is that the authority of Arafat, his ability to do much of anything about this, has been greatly diminished. And a feeling has grown in the Palestinian community that it's reached such a terrible point, why not sacrifice, why not make yourself a martyr? There's no shortage of martyrs our there.

O'BRIEN: All right. On that bleak note, can you give us a shred of optimism? Where would you head if you were advising, say, the Bush administration right now?

MURPHY: Well, I would -- I would drop this -- or deal with story that's been circulating the last several days that the United States is about to sever all ties with the Palestine authority. We remain ready. Make that clear, that we remain ready to engage when and if there's a prospect of some gain in engaging. To have General Zinni still ready to move, but saying there's nothing positive that he can accomplish at this point in time. But get the message across the United States wants to engage, wants to work, to help bring the peace that both sides basically need and want.

O'BRIEN: It sounds like a high-wire act. Thank you very much.

MURPHY: Sure (ph).

O'BRIEN: Richard Murphy, Former Assistant Secretary of State, always a pleasure to have you with us on CNN SUNDAY MORNING.

MURPHY: Thank you.

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