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CNN Sunday Morning

Federal Agents Expected to Begin Sweep of Illegal Immigrants

Aired February 10, 2002 - 11:35   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: This morning, immigration in the aftermath of September 11th. This week Federal agents are expected to begin a sweep of illegal immigrants. In a moment, we'll have a discussion about that.

But first, police in Miami say they've uncovered an alleged immigration scam involving seven airline pilots, all from Venezuela. Reporter Joan Murray, with our affiliate station WFOR in Miami, has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOAN MURRAY, WFOR REPORTER (voice over): One of the American Airlines pilots arrested, Paga Agusti (ph), flies from Miami to the Bahamas. Another, Luis Garmendia (ph) flies a passenger route to Dallas. Also charged, Pedro Batone (ph) a licensed pilot for Executive Jet Aviation, located a few miles from the Miami Airport. In all, the Justice Department has charged seven pilots, a fueler, and an airline mechanic with possessing fraudulent immigration documents.

GUY LEWIS, U.S. ATTORNEY: A number of documents, phony documents, passports with the stamps, with the phony stamps, a number of phony INS letters, a number of Venezuelan official documents that had been forged or otherwise were false, were seized during the course of the various searches this morning.

MURRAY: According to the U.S. Attorney all the men charged are from Venezuela and bought counterfeit stamps to be placed in their passports. The stamps indicate you are a legal permanent resident and authorized to work in the United States.

JAMES GOLDMAN, INS: A lot of people come to the United States, one because they like it, and two because they want to seek employment here, and that's what these people have done.

MURRAY: Reached tonight, a spokesman for American Airlines, where two of the pilots worked said: "We cooperated in the investigation." They are disappointed the pilots falsified documents and are now looking at their hiring processes. And if the Justice Department has any recommendations, they will look at them.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Prosecutors in the Miami case say there is no connection to the September 11th attacks, but this week Federal agents will have the terrorist attacks in mind when they begin an illegal immigration sweep. Agents are expected to detain thousands of illegal Middle Eastern immigrants who've ignored orders to leave the country or have committed crimes.

But is this fair justice or a case of profiling? Let's ask our guest. Stanley Cohen is a criminal defense attorney whose represented a number of Muslim and Arab leaders, and law professor Vikham Amar is at the University of California. Good morning gentlemen. Thanks for joining us.

STANLEY COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Thank you for asking.

VIKHAM AMAR, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: Well, is this a case of Federally sanctioned excused profiling at its best? Stanley, let's begin with you.

COHEN: Well, absolutely. What we've got here is a situation where once again we're descending down the slippery slope of racial and religious profiling. This is not a case where we're fanning out to seek thousands of person of all backgrounds named Hans and Maria and Ricardo. But we are fanning out and focusing specifically on a group named Mahmood, Mohammed, and Ishmael.

Perhaps these are people who have overstayed their stay. Perhaps they are folks who have absconded. But nevertheless, we are very clearly focusing on a certain cross section of the community and ignoring many others who are similarly situated.

WHITFIELD: Well, Vikham, the Federal Government says there are about 314,000 foreign nationals in the U.S. who are ignoring deportation orders, but they're going after this first 1,000 first. How do you respond to whether this is indeed racial profiling, or ethnic profiling?

AMAR: Well as I understand the Federal policy, this is not racial profiling. What the Federal Government is doing is targeting certain people who come from countries where al Qaeda is known to be a stronghold. There's a big difference.

Now, Mr. Cohen may think it's a formalistic difference, but there's a big, important legal Constitutional distinction between race and nationality, and the Federal Government does have a free hand to treat citizens differently than non-citizens, and citizens from one country differently than citizens from another country.

So for example, we've had quotas, different quotas for different countries around the world that correlate with race, but no one's ever suggested that having different policies with regard to persons who come from different countries is unconstitutional.

COHEN: Well the fact that a policy may be Constitutional in the final analysis. Slavery was Constitutional, but wrong. Denying women the right to vote was Constitution, but wrong. Incarcerating Japanese-Americans during World War II committing no crime was Constitutional, but wrong.

What's most interesting is that of the 1,000 persons arrested worldwide with alleged connections to September 11th and al Qaeda, more than 700 of them come from European countries, but yet we don't see the immigration department going after Germans, Italians, or French.

Once again, it's being used as an excuse to single out persons on the basis of their religion and on the basis of their being Arabs.

WHITFIELD: And gentlemen, some might argue what difference does it make if we're talking about a group of people who have already, you know, have already removed themselves from the responsibility of being deported because their visas are up, or perhaps they're convicted criminals.

COHEN: Well, really -

AMAR: I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I mean these persons have been afforded due process of law in that they've already been adjudicated to be wrongdoers. Now sometimes we let wrongdoers off if the basis of selecting them for prosecution is impermissible, and race is one of those impermissible basis.

But just to respond to something Mr. Cohen said, I'm not here to defend the policy wisdom of the Federal approach here. But there might be a rational substantial reasonable basis for focusing on people from certain countries, I'm not sure that's just a pretext for going after their religion or their last name.

COHEN: Well, what I find most interesting here is there are currently 800 persons from Middle Eastern countries who have been ordered deported. They've agreed to go back. They have waived any appeal, or they've said they want to go back, but yet they've been detained for four or five months now in jails in New Jersey because, in the words of the FBI, you'll never know when we need these people.

That type of mentality, that type of racist approach toward this next swing, is what's going to direct the policy of the government, and they'll say it's for the right reasons. They always, when they violate the rights of the most vulnerable, say they must or they should or it's legal. It doesn't make it right. It doesn't make it appropriate. It makes it wrong in the final analysis.

WHITFIELD: And Vik, in your view, how do you suppose this might threaten the relationship between U.S. and Arab-Americans or Muslim- Americans once these arrests begin taking place? And it just so happens that the majority of these people, who are being associated with terrorist nations, just may be of similar ethnicity.

AMAR: I think that's a good question, and I'm sure it is one that President Bush and his advisers have thought about in deciding whether this policy is a good idea.

I would hope though that we would communicate to our friends in the Middle East that we're going after only individuals who have been already adjudicated to have violated U.S. laws. Many of them have violated criminal laws as well as immigration laws, so this is not the kind of most sympathetic group of people to represent those Middle Eastern countries in the United States.

COHEN: Well, how do we tell our friends in the Middle East that the 900 people who also purportedly forfeited their right to remain here and want to leave, are still being detained in horrific jails, particularly in New Jersey, because the government says you'll never know when we need to use these people again?

We can't on the one hand raise all of these wonderful notions and ideals about justice and equality, but yet on the other hand, when it's convenient and suits us, violate the rights of everyone, including non-U.S. citizens in a way to suit a political end, and that's what the administration is doing.

WHITFIELD: And Stanley, the Attorney General is maintaining that this - that ethnicity does not play a role in their domestic campaign to locate any potential terrorists.

COHEN: Well, it sounds good, but the reality of it is, just about everyone who has been incarcerated and almost all the persons, the thousands who have been interrogated, lined up and intimidated, have all interestingly enough had one factor in common. They pray five days, five times a day, as opposed to once a week, and their names are Mahmood.

Now if the Attorney General wants to say that's mere happenstance or coincidence, he can continue to treat us like children. We know the Irish and the Jews and the Italian and the French who have overstayed their welcome and who may be here illegally, are not being singled out and are not being harassed. That's racial profiling, and it's wrong.

WHITFIELD: And Vik, quickly, I'll let you have the last word.

AMAR: It's not racial profiling. Just because there's a correlation between country of origin and race doesn't mean that we're going after them because of race, as opposed to the culture of the country and the al Qaeda presence in those countries.

COHEN: Well, al Qaeda was mostly in Europe as the government has said. There have been 700 arrests in Spain and France and Germany, but we're not seeking, we're not detaining, we're not interrogating persons of that ethnicity or religious background.

WHITFIELD: All right, well we're not going to solve this debate this afternoon, and of course we'll be watching this week to see exactly what takes place as the Federal Government begins its sweep within days now. All right, thanks very much Stanley Cohen and Vikham Amar.

COHEN: Thank you.

VIKHAM: Thank you.

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