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CNN Sunday Morning

Gospel Music has Emerged from the Church

Aired March 03, 2002 - 07:35   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Well, this Sunday morning, as many people get ready for church, we put the spotlight on gospel music.

Gospel was once narrowly defined as religious music or church music. It began in its golden era with the smooth acapella. Then it evolved more traditional handclapping, foot tapping rhythms, as represented by Andre Crouch.

Now gospel has emerged from the church. And groups like Mary, are making the music more mainstream. Now this gospel revolution raises the question, is the message of God, faith and praise getting lost?

Well, we have several guests who joined me to talk about this. Here with me in Atlanta, singer songwriters Erica Campbell and Tina Campbell, better known as Mary, Mary. And on the phone from Jackson, Mississippi, Jerry Mannery of Malico Records.

Jerry, are you there?

JERRY MANNERY, MALICO RECORDS: I'm here, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: All right, good. We're going to have a good conversation this morning, OK?

MANNERY: Amen.

PHILLIPS: All right, well, start with you girls and let's talk about your music. And how did you get going in gospel?

TINA CAMPBELL, MARY-MARY: Well, first of all, we're preacher's kids. And so, we were raised and born in the church. And we sang in the church choir and in the school choir. And the opportunity presented itself. We actually did sing backup with a few different R&B artists, but when the opportunity presented itself to do gospel, we ran with it because that's what's most in our hearts.

Columbia heard our music. They were interested in signing. And so, we went for it. And it's kind of been uphill from there. But we were doing gospel theatrical plays for like maybe five, six years before the Mary-Mary thing came about. So...

PHILLIPS: And what does your dad think of your music? ERICA CAMPBELL, MARY-MARY: My dad loves it. He thinks it's so awesome. And the thing that's cool about it is we grew up in an urban neighborhood. And my dad was very friendly with a lot of gangsters in the neighborhood. And he would present Christ to them, but in such a way where they felt comfortable.

PHILLIPS: Yes.

E. CAMPBELL: You know, they didn't feel like he was doing this to them. And so, that kind of, you know, jumped onto us. And so, with our music, we love, you know, hiphop music. We love the urban sound. And so it kind of, you know, came together. But the message is definitely about Christ and his love and you know, and how he can help to -- help you have a better life.

PHILLIPS: So you think that this controversy that's been raises, this talk about it becoming too secular, do you think that's just a misconception?

T. CAMPBELL: I think it's totally a misconception.

E. CAMPBELL: I think people just don't like change.

T. CAMPBELL: Yes.

E. CAMPBELL: Anytime something different comes along, it's like I'm not used to that. That's not how it supposed to be.

T. CAMPBELL: And the thing is for us, we were born and raised in the church, you know. Our father was a preacher and God was a very important part of our lives. But we were also an urban, you know, neighborhood. You know, we grew up in the ghettos. And so, the part of the hiphop culture, that was also a part of our lives. We didn't go out and try to become that. That made up who we were. And then also the church element.

So when you have Mary-Mary, you have both the elements merged. And it's just 100 percent us. We didn't try to do something other something other than gospel.

E. CAMPBELL: Right.

T. CAMPBELL: It's just the gospel according to Mary-Mary, you know.

PHILLIPS: And we know who Mary-Mary is. We know who those two people are. Jerry, I know you're a fan of Mary-Mary.

MANNERY: Yes.

PHILLIPS: And Tina and Erica's music. Your concerns are more with sort of blurring the line, correct? Let's talk a little bit about that.

MANNERY: Well, really, I love Erica and Tin's music. And I really agree with them that, you know, we're really dealing with change. And if you think back in the '20s and '30s when Thomas Dorothy introduced this music to the church, he received some of the same flack that a lot of the urban contemporary artists are receiving today.

And that music that he received all of the flack for is really the traditional music of today. So I really believe that what we are -- everything is really just kind of relative. And even with the music of Andre Crouch and Walter Hawkins, the Hawkins family from the '60s, that was contemporary music in the '60s.

But today, it's regarded as the traditional music. So I really don't think that we've gone too far with it. Even though I'm from a traditional background, I truly do not believe we've gone too far.

PHILLIPS: So Jerry, what about -- I want to ask you guys about this, too. Let's say a non-believer, OK, who maybe isn't even listening to the sounds, but they're seeing hip hop video and then they're seeing a Mary-Mary video. And they're thinking, OK, same moves, same dress. What's the difference?

E. CAMPBELL: I think the dress is a little different. Our necklines kind of don't do that and our skirts kind of don't...

PHILLIPS: It's not the J.Lo thing?

E. CAMPBELL: No, it's definitely -- yes, we -- I think it's a positive spiritual message packaged real cool. You know what I mean? And I think that they see a difference, but they see that there is relativeness between the two videos. And so they feel like living Christian lifestyle isn't so farfetched and it's not like, nobody in the world can do that today, not 2002.

T. CAMPBELL: Because there are some parallels. We're human beings. We want to look good. We like the hair thing and all of that kind of stuff, you know.

PHILLIPS: Well, and you want to identify to those who think church is stuffy and it's not cool.

T. CAMPBELL: Exactly. It's like we're people just like you, but we let -- God is the source of our strength. And we try to align our lives according to what the Bible has planned for us. And that's the difference.

You know, it's not that her hair is red so her hair can't be red. Or they have make-up on, so I can't have make-up on.

Of course, there is a fine line. At some point in time, there should be difference. Like if my skirt was up to high heaven and my this was way down here, you'd be like, "OK, I don't -- I mean, I'm confused on what message.

E. CAMPBELL: We're representing God here.

T. CAMPBELL: OK, you know, so there are some things that need to be different, but a beat and a chord, I don't think there's a God in a beat or in a chord.

E. CAMPBELL: Just the message.

T. CAMPBELL: It's the message that's behind it.

PHILLIPS: And Jerry, you've mentioned that, too. You want gospel music to stay focused on using Emanuel, Savior, Jesus, God.

MANNERY: Yes.

PHILLIPS: Instead of him, her. The language is important.

MANNERY: Oh yes, because I mean, there's power in the name Jesus. And so often we use pronouns because that makes it a little bit more palatable to the mainstream. But I think one of the things that we have to realize is that our commission is that we should be fishers of men. And you can't use the same bait to attract every kind of fish.

And so, just because I use a minnow to fish with, I can't use that for every type of fish. So you have to really look at what the objective is. But one of the problems we have entering the mainstream is that, you know, we can't really let the mainstream enter us.

PHILLIPS: Yes.

MANNERY: And there is a standard that we really should uphold. And we're representing ourselves. In the secular music, you know, you hear the artists talking about their homies or talking about the hood or talking about a region of the country that they represent. We have to remember as gospel artists who it is that we're representing. And it's God. It's not ourselves.

PHILLIPS: Absolutely. That's a great message, Jerry. On another note, the money. I mean, there's big money. Is it hard to resist that?

E. CAMPBELL: Well, I think what we try to keep in mind is before all this came about, I was Erica and she was Tina wanting an opportunity, needing an opportunity. And once we have it, you know, I don't want to take it for granted. I meet so many people. You know, a few years ago, there were like really cool. And so, now they have a few awards and stuff. And it's like, "Oh, hi." I mean...

PHILLIPS: So they have money now, wow.

T. CAMPBELL: I'm this and I'm important.

E. CAMPBELL: That sucks. You know, I think you should appreciate what you have and use it to the best of your ability. If you have a forum where people are paying attention to you, use it wisely, you know. There are a lot of little kids that look up to certain artists. And the cocky attitudes just like sucks. And they think that's how you're supposed to be once you...

T. CAMPBELL: Exactly. E. CAMPBELL: ...acquire some things in life. And it's really not it.

T. CAMPBELL: Yes, and when you get into this business, the gospel music business, your aim should not be I want the millions. I want to be bling, bling. And of course, you're definitely glad if that comes along with it. But if that is your focus, you're in the wrong business. You should be singing about something else, because there are going to be plenty of situations where people just need you because they need help. And there is no dollar behind it. But you have to go and you have to supply the message.

Because that's our commission. That's the commission that God gave us, you know. So you know, that shouldn't -- that definitely shouldn't be your focus going into gospel. I'm selling a million records, and I'm getting rich, and I'm going to have millions, and I'm going to be bling, bling and have all these hot stuff, you know.

E. CAMPBELL: We're trying to let people know that we deal with heartbreak. You know, I've been dumped before. You know, I've been hurt before. I've been confused. I've wondered and I've thought, you know, what is my point here. You know, but with God, he helps me, you know, get to those answers. And that's what we try to let people know.

It's not like oh, we have Christians, we have all the answers. We know how to do everything right.

T. CAMPBELL: Yes.

E. CAMPBELL: You know, it's like we -- it's a solution, you know, to everyday problems, the smallest to the largest. And you know, we try to let young people know that, like it's not all about the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and Bentleys that you hear and see in music. There's so much to the world.

PHILLIPS: Much more depth?

E. CAMPBELL: Yes.

PHILLIPS: I understand we have Dr. Bobby Jones on the phone. I know you guys know him very well.

E. CAMPBELL: Yes.

PHILLIPS: The godfather of gospel music.

T. CAMPBELL: Hi, Dr. Jones.

PHILLIPS: Are you with us, Dr. Jones? Oh, we lost him. OK, we'll try and bring him back. But when it comes down to -- did you say we had Dr. Jones, Kevin? No? Oh, we lost him, shoot.

OK, well, let's say there's a group that is watching us right now. OK? A group of kids. And of course, they -- the music is -- you can't help but feel it. It gets in your soul no matter what you believe.

What is your message to the younger kids right now, that are sort of maybe looking at their brother and sister, who's going the wrong way, but then they also see you and think, wow, I got a choice going on right now. I can make this decision.

T. CAMPBELL: You know, people always say, you know, that it's so hard to do the right thing, but it really depends on what's in your heart, you know. Of course, it's easy. It seems like it's always easy and convenient to do...

E. CAMPBELL: The wrong thing.

T. CAMPBELL: ...what's wrong. It's easy to fall into that. But you have to make up in your mind that I could care less what my peers think and what all these people around me, because they don't define who I am. I want to do what's right for me. I don't want to wait until tragedy and turmoil hits my life for me to turn to God, like OK, you know, nothing else has worked. So can you help me now?

Why not include God in your life right now? Why not wait until a 9/11 situation or something devastating in your life? Just why not now? Why not a prayer every now and then now? Why not, "Lord, help me to the best person I could be. Help me to do what's right today."

And that's what we're trying to send to everybody. Like she said, it's not that I have the answers to everything. We're perfect individuals, be exactly like us, but you make an effort, you know. You don't have to be -- you don't have be defined by what people around you think. And what -- you don't have to follow what your peers are doing.

You be the leader. You be the one saying, "OK, I'm going to stand for God." Be like me.

PHILLIPS: Now everyone could grow up and be like you two. I tell you what.

Jerry we want to thank you - Jerry Mannery for being on the phone with us.

MANNERY: Yes.

PHILLIPS: Final thoughts before we wrap it up here?

MANNERY: Well, I agree with the statement that I heard Bishop T.D. Jakes says that money should not be a our mission. Money should fund our mission. And I think as gospel artists, as long as we can keep it in perspective and to understand that selling more records and more concert tickets is good. You know, but the bottom line is, is the kingdom of God benefit? And if we receive all of these things and the kingdom of God is not benefited, it's all in vain.

And I think that Erica and Tina and Kirk Franklin and the other hiphop artists are -- urban artists, they understand that. And I truly applaud them. I love Shackles. And Shackles has been a blessing to me as well as my family. So congratulations, Mary-Mary.

T. CAMPBELL: Thank you.

PHILLIPS: Jerry Mannery, thank you so much. Of course, Kirk got everybody going on that movement. Well, you know what I have to ask you two. Will you sing us to break a little acapella? Let's bring some of the old classical in. How does that sound?

T. CAMPBELL: OK, let's give them a taste of what's on the upcoming record.

PHILLIPS: All right.

PHILLIPS: How's that for a CNN Sunday morning? There we go. We just all had church. We're going to have a great day. Ladies, thank you so much.

T. CAMPBELL: You're welcome.

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