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CNN Sunday Morning
Palestinian, Israeli Security Chiefs Meet
Aired March 24, 2002 - 07:02 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Back now to our lead story. We begin with U.S. led diplomatic efforts in the Middle East. Today could be pivotal. For the latest, we turn to CNN Jerusalem bureau chief, Mike Hanna.
Hello, Mike.
MIKE HANNA, CNN JERUSALEM BUREAU CHIEF: Oh, hello there, Miles. Critical indeed. Palestinian and Israeli security chiefs are meeting to discuss about how to implement a ceasefire. Presence at that meeting too, Special U.S. Envoy Anthony Zinni. This is the fourth round of talks. No sign of any potential breakthrough, but at least the conversation -- the talks are continuing.
The Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon earlier held a meeting with his cabinet and discussions there among other things whether or not the Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat, will be allowed to travel to Beirut for the Arab Summit. Arafat has been restricted to the Palestinian territory for a number of months now. And it appears that the ceasefire issue would be critical in determining whether or not Arafat is allowed to travel. The ceasefire issue may also be critical in determining whether or not Arafat meets U.S. Vice President Dick Cheney.
Well, while this is all going on the violence is continuing on the ground. An Israel woman was shot and killed by Palestinian gunmen while traveling in an armored bus in the West Bank. Shortly afterwards, there was an exchange of fire between Israeli forces and Palestinians. A Palestinian police officer was shot and killed in that incident.
On Saturday, a number of Palestinians killed by Israel forces in Gaza. As many as seven Palestinians were killed when Israeli forces moved in to a town in southern Gaza, Zat Arrup (ph). Among the dead were some Palestinian gunmen, but also some unarmed civilians among those killed.
So the violence on the ground continues, but the two sides, the security chiefs, are still talking in an attempt to bring about a truce -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: Mike. There's a reporter out of the "New York Times" this morning. Obviously, you've seen it, which makes the allegation that Arafat is being perhaps funded with arms or other kinds of funding and support by Iran. What do you know about that report? How much credence should be given?
HANNA: Well, that report did manage to conflate U.S. intelligence sources, which had quoted an Israel intelligence sources. Now, Israel has made this claim for a period of time now, saying there is direct connection between Iran and the Palestinian Authority. Israel points to the capture of the ship, the Korean A, earlier this year. That ship was laded with weapons and explosives, bombs, said Israel, for the Palestinian Authority. Its point of destination, said Israel -- of origin, said Israel, was Iran.
Now, Iran denied that completely. Iran insisted it had nothing to do with the arms shipment, that it was not supplying arms to the Palestinian Authority. But as far as Israel is concerned, there is a direct causal connection between Iran and the Palestinian Authority, particularly in terms of providing weapons.
Israeli intelligence sources also claim that weapons are coming to the Palestinian Authority by the Hezbollah guerilla organization in Lebanon. Hezbollah largely backed by Arabian sources. So, perhaps there's a degree of accuracy in the report, though, denied vehemently by Iran and by the Palestinian Authority -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: CNN's Mike Hanna, our Jerusalem bureau chief. Thanks very much.
Now, let's take a closer look at the Mid East through the eyes of our guests. They have opposing viewpoints on whether Vice President Cheney should meet with Yasser Arafat sometime soon.
Hussein Ibish is the director of communications for the American Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee. He joins us from our Washington bureau and in Denver, Cliff May, president of the Foundation For the Defense of Democracy.
It's good to have both with us, gentlemen.
CLIFF MAY, FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY: Good to be with you Miles.
HUSSEIN IBISH, AMERICAN ARAB ANTI-DISCRIMINATION COMMITTEE: Thanks a lot.
O'BRIEN: All right, first of all, let's talk about that report in the "New York Times" this morning. That seems to be -- if nothing else, the timing is of interest.
Mr. Ibish, what do you think about it?
IBISH: Yeah.
O'BRIEN: I assume you would be somewhat skeptical that this would be on the front page of the "Times" on this Sunday.
IBISH: Yeah, it's -- of course, it's a -- what it is is it's a fantastic way of changing the subject from the fact that, you know, we're not serious. The Bush administration not moving seriously to engage the Palestinians and the Israelis and create a new political process that has a chance at ending this conflict. And this business about the Palestinians being tied to Iran and what have you, it seems extremely exaggerated. The evidence is very thin. Most of its coming from Israel.
And even if it's true, that Palestinians had bought some weapons from Iran and for goodness sake, the Palestinians have a right to defend themselves. There are tens of thousands of heavily armed Israeli troops occupying their land for the past 35 years. They're under siege for over 1,200 of our Palestinian civilians have been killed by Israel in the past 18 months and they would certainly have the right to defend themselves, getting arms from any source that they could, for heaven's sake...
O'BRIEN: Indeed it's true.
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: Mr. Ibish, Mr. May has been shaking his head the whole time. Go ahead.
IBISH: Well, I'm sure.
MAY: Well, I'm sorry. Look, we know that the Korean A was laden with weapons for terrorists, including the kinds of explosives that are used by suicide...
IBISH: Well, you don't know...
MAY: Hussein, you have to let me finish -- including the kinds of explosives that are used to go into restaurants and discotheques and family celebrations to kill civilians. The problem with the connection and there is abundant evidence now of an Iranian connection supplying weapons to Arafat and to the terrorists in the territories is that the American government is in favor of an independent Palestinian state, but will not be if it's a facile state of Iran and if it's a terrorist sponsoring state.
O'BRIEN: Right.
MAY: Iran is a terrorist sponsoring state on the list of terrorist sponsoring states.
Arafat needs to break with terrorism. Sadly, he has not done so. On the contrary, he has continued to sponsor terrorism and encourage terrorism against the Israelis. He has continued to encourage groups that seek not only to move Israelis off of the land that are -- that were given to Arafat by the Israelis but to destroy Israel and to kill all Jews and that has to be stopped.
O'BRIEN: Mr. Ibish, Mr. May has successfully gotten us to the larger issue at hand here, which is the question of Mr. Arafat's actions and his words and whether they, in fact, conflict. And as a subset of that, whether his words in Arabic are different from his words in English. IBISH: Well, we know they're not. I mean, look, this is such -- it's such a smokescreen to say that. Again, it's an attempt to change the subject. Now, the point of this is there's a conflict and most of the people who've been dying, most of the unarmed civilians who've been dying are Palestinians and as I say, Israel is maintaining tens of thousands of heavily armed troops outside of their country in somebody else's country with the soul purpose of taking that land away from them...
MAY: Not true.
IBISH: ... and keeping them and -- of course, it's true.
MAY: Of course, it's not...
IBISH: You're denying that there are tens of thousands of Israeli troops...
MAY: It's a response...
IBISH: ... outside of Israel.
O'BRIEN: All right...
MAY: You are trying, as usual, to confuse the firefighter with the arsonist. The Israelis have gone into pursue the terrorists. Look, right now...
IBISH: No, now that is...
MAY: ... as you well know, Hussein...
IBISH: Listen...
MAY: ... as you well know -- as you well know -- I mean...
O'BRIEN: Excuse me, gentlemen. Gentlemen. Gentlemen. Gentlemen. Gentlemen. Gentlemen, please, I need one person to talk. One quick point...
MAY: As you well know...
O'BRIEN: ... Mr. May, go first.
MAY: As you well know that Arafat has authority over the territories under a land for peace agreement. The Israelis gave him the land. He has never given the peace. Cheney cannot meet with him...
IBISH: Look...
MAY: ... until and unless he gives up terrorism. And he has not done so.
IBISH: The Israelis -- the Israeli occupation has been in place for 35 years. The entirety of the West Bank and Gaza Strip and east Jerusalem is under Israeli occupation...
MAY: You know, what...
IBISH: Let me finish -- and has been for 35 years. And as Koffi Annan has told us that occupation is illegal and it must end. Israel refuses to end its occupation.
O'BRIEN: You know, can we...
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: Gentlemen. Gentlemen. Gentlemen. Gentlemen. Gentlemen. Gentlemen! Gentlemen! I will -- I'll have to stop this earlier if we can't talk in a polite manner with each other. So...
MAY: Miles, let me say very quickly...
O'BRIEN: OK.
MAY: ... that even occupation cannot be an excuse for terrorism. I'm right now in Denver. There are American Indians here who think that we are occupying their land. That is not an excuse for them to fire bomb your house, Hussein.
IBISH: Of course.
MAY: Occupation...
O'BRIEN: Can I get...
MAY: After 9/11, we have to understand that...
O'BRIEN: Excuse me.
MAY: ... terrorism...
O'BRIEN: Excuse me.
MAY: ... is never the response to...
O'BRIEN: Excuse me.
MAY: ... a grievance including one over land.
O'BRIEN: All right, I would like you to get back to the subject at hand here, which -- is it -- is the time right for Vice President Cheney to meet with Yasser Arafat and what that symbolizes of course, is a higher level of engagement on the part of the U.S. administration.
Mr. Ibish, you go first.
IBISH: Right, yeah. Miles, I think if we're serious about bringing this conflict to an end, if we're serious about dealing with it, of course, we have to talk to both sides. We cannot be talking only to the Israelis and not the Palestinians when there's a conflict between Israelis and Palestinians.
And as I say, most of the people that have been getting killed are Palestinians. Most of the violence has been coming from Israel, which is why four times as many Palestinian civilians have died than Israelis. So of course, we have to talk about that.
MAY: We cannot -- Miles, we cannot reward terrorism until and unless Arafat gives up terrorism, which sadly, he has not done. There is no way that Cheney can violate that principal. We don't negotiate with the Taliban. We don't negotiate with al Qaeda. We can't negotiate with Arafat as long as people who report to him are committing acts of blatant and vaguer...
IBISH: Well...
MAY: ... terrible terrorism.
O'BRIEN: Mr. May, it does seem to me...
(CROSSTALK)
IBISH: ... conflict.
O'BRIEN: Excuse me, Mr. May, let me just follow up on that. It does seem to me that there's an assumption that Yasser Arafat is literally pulling the strings on all these suicide bombers. Is that a correct assumption to make?
MAY: I think it is at this point. When you have groups like the Alaxa (ph) Martyrs Brigade, which report to him, and Fateh, which report to him, committing acts of terrorism. But if he is not responsible for it, if he can control it, then what's there to negotiate. He can't give the Israelis what they need, which is peace. We might of well negotiate here between me and Hussein because we have as much power as he does. Either he is responsible and won't stop the terrorism or he is out of control of the situation in which case, there's no point in negotiating.
O'BRIEN: Mr. Ibish, final thought.
IBISH: Yeah, of course, that misses the point entirely that the Israeli military is in effective control of the entire area and has been for 35 years. And as a result, there's not much that the Palestinian can do and they're under this...
(CROSSTALK)
IBISH: ... of siege. Yes, we -- of course, so everyone has to start talking and not...
MAY: ... a ceasefire.
IBISH: ... and refusing to have negotiations as Sharon is doing. And unfortunately, we're not taking the proactive role of a superpower in bringing the parties together, which is what...
MAY: Stop the violence. Stop the terrorism and negotiations can begin.
IBISH: And the uprising.
MAY: They stop the terrorism.
O'BRIEN: Gentlemen, we're going to have to leave it there.
MAY: Thank you, Miles.
O'BRIEN: Hussein Ibish, Cliff May, thank you very much. We appreciate you, at least, attempting to allow each other to speak. We appreciate that. Obviously, we didn't settle -- we didn't settle anything in that six-minute interchange.
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