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CNN Sunday Morning
Interview with Marc Ginsberg, Wayne Owens
Aired March 31, 2002 - 08:36 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: More than a dozen people reported to have been killed; more than 30 wounded in the fourth of five suicide bombing attacks in five days. This one from this morning out of Haifa -- the port city of Haifa in Israel. We've been discussing this all morning, bringing in our analysts, our correspondents on the scene. And we want to bring two of our analysts back in.
Joining me on the phone, Wayne Owens, the Center for Middle East Peace and Economic Cooperation -- Wayne, thanks for coming back with us this morning.
WAYNE OWENS, CENTER FOR MIDDLE EAST PEACE AND ECONOMIC COOPERATION: Sure.
PHILLIPS: Also...
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Marc Ginsberg, in Washington, who has been fielding a lot of questions for us. And, once again, we've been inviting your emails, and let's get right to them. There's one here from C.J., which is worth sharing.
"Will the suicide bombings stop any sooner or are we witnessing the beginning of a new resolution? Is there hope for peace or is the situation not negotiable?" In other words, I guess, have we crossed some sort of threshold, Marc Ginsberg?
MARC GINSBERG, FMR. U.S. AMBASSADOR TO MORROCCO: The suicide bombers do represent an extraordinarily dangerous development not only for the Israelis. As you may have heard in your previous hour, spokesman Bucine (ph) said the Israeli government feels it's on the front line against terrorism. And from the Israeli perspective, they certainly have been and are.
At the same time, there is a vision for peace, Miles. There is a vision where both the Israeli population and the Palestinian population see that a two-state solution can be arrived at. But it's ironic and terrible that both parties realize that they both want a Palestinian state. And the real dilemma that all of face is how to get from where we are today to that vision.
It's not going to be born out of Mr. Arafat's utilization of terrorism as a way of leading the Israelis back to the negotiating table. And it won't be because Prime Minister Sharon is unwilling to offer even his own public a vision of where he would go compared to where his predecessor Prime Minister Barak was willing to take the Israeli population. Mr. Sharon is just as culpable at times as Mr. Arafat for not offering his own vision for peace to the Israeli public.
O'BRIEN: All right.
We have a lot of other good emails here. Let's bring you this one. This one comes from Carrie (ph). "Please explain why the Israelis are occupying territories that are taken from Palestinians, among others, and the Palestinians are supposed to back down?" -- Mr. Owens.
OWENS: Well I think that the best explanation is that the Israelis have been unable to keep people coming from the territories from bombing them. And they have undertaken to invade or reoccupy the West Bank in order to try to bring them under control and to stop the bombing. As is obvious, their (UNINTELLIGIBLE) tactics simply have not been working, but the premise for going in this is to try to stop it.
It's presumed that there's going to be some new thinking and some new efforts made on the part of the Israelis to do something about it. But certainly -- or reoccupation in not working.
O'BRIEN: Marc, would you like to elaborate on that one?
GINSBERG: Well the real dilemma here is the fact that the reason why Israelis are occupying the West Bank and the Gaza strip is because they haven't been able to get a clear ironclad commitment from Mr. Arafat that they can rest assured that he is prepared to renounce violence and terrorism. That's the first immediate issue.
The more broader issue on the ground as to why the Israelis are still since 1967 in the West Bank, is because they recognize that unless they withdraw from these territories with firm security guarantees, they have no basis on which to justify that to the Israeli people. But then, secondly, is a more hidden agenda here, which is the Israeli government and the Israeli people have not been able to reconcile among themselves to what extent should any Israelis remain in the West Bank in the settlements that have been built and constructed on Palestinian land ever since 1967?
To a vast...
(CROSS TALK)
GINSBERG: ... to a vast number of Israelis, these lands are part of Israel, and the Israelis face a terrible dilemma. Do they pay the price that they're paying for continuing to hold on to these lands? Or do they recognize that without removing most of these settlements, they will not be able to secure peace between them and the Palestinians? And that's the dilemma that the Sharon government faces. It's being attacked on its right by Former Prime Minister Netanyahu, and on its left, a labor government -- labor ministers who want to see the Israelis negotiate in good faith for the withdraw from the West Bank. O'BRIEN: All right, Marc, we have another question from one of our frequent emailers who is in Toronto, Hassan Ahmad, who frequently shares -- he's like-minded with the Palestinian cause. "All we hear about is that Arafat is in control of these terrorist groups, when the world knows the fact of the matter is that most of the suicide bombers are acting under desperation."
GINSBERG: I don't necessarily agree to that. I think we all have sufficient indication to believe that at least a significant number of the terrorist initiatives are under the -- if not the direct deployment of Mr. Arafat, that he has been less than able and willing to express in Arabic to his own people to stop this. You know he has significant political clout among his population. How do you call for a cessation of this -- of these attacks...
O'BRIEN: Marc, I'm sorry, I have to interrupt you for just a moment. We have a piece of breaking news, some more details coming in.
(INTERRUPTED FOR CNN COVERAGE OF BREAKING NEWS)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: And we continue to get more insight on the crisis in the Middle East. Our U.S. policy makers closely watching every move that's been taking place since this developing story out of Haifa. Another suicide bombing in this port town of Israel. Four -- actually, the fourth such attack in the last five days.
Joining me on the phone is Wayne Owens of the Center for Middle East Peace and Economic Cooperation. Also the former Ambassador to Morocco, Mark Ginsberg, is with us out of Washington. He's been with us all morning.
We'll go straight to the emails once again?
O'BRIEN: Yeah. And just to remind our viewers, if you want to participate in the story as it unfolds, we invite you to do so -- wam@cnn.com is our email address. We've got lots already. We'll try to get to as many as we can throughout the course of our coverage here.
Marc, I know you addressed this earlier, but we're going to have to presume that some viewers are just joining us. So it's probably worth going through this one more time. Bill in Georgetown asked this: "Who is the likely successor to Arafat? Is there a structure to the political structure of the Palestinians? Is there someone other than Arafat Israeli leaders and others should be talking with?"
Let's have you start first, Marc, since you've already taken one whack at this.
GINSBERG: The Israelis have had a series of engagements with a variety of Palestinian leaders around Arafat who have very good relations with the Israelis even under these terrible circumstances. Indeed, Foreign Minister Shimon Peres has extensive relations, as does the defense minister in Israel. The primary problem here is that until just a few months ago, Arafat refused to have anyone be deemed his successor. I mean he really wants to be the martyr.
You have to take his words at face value. The Palestinian movement, as far as he's concerned, is embodied in his personage. He has really not wanted anyone to step into his shoes. He very grudgingly names a fairly obscure Palestinian as his successor. But the real problem on the ground will be that should he have an untimely passing under the circumstances, is that the military wings of the Palestinian movement would vi for control against the Hamas leadership and the Islamic jihad leadership. Which is why most people who are involved in the region would predict that it would be a bloody civil war among the Palestinians for the control over Arafat's legacy.
PHILLIPS: Marc, another email directed to you. And, by the way, I just want to make note that we no longer have Wayne Owens (ph) of the Center For Middle East Peace and Economic Cooperation with us on the phone. We have actually another interview right in a moment from now, and so we had to let that phone call go. We apologize. So we'll continue with Marc Ginsberg.
"Sharon and Arafat are old enemies. And to say that one is more responsible than the other is naive. Both are responsible equally. My concern is that the Bush administration, like the previous administration, is only supporting one side." That comes from Jim Malone in Connecticut.
GINSBERG: The Bush administration is fighting a war on terrorism, the American people are. The Israelis are fighting a war on terrorism. At the same time, Sharon and Arafat have engaged in a blood feud for all intents and purposes since 1982, which was categorized in then General Sharon's invasion of Lebanon and his exiling of Mr. Arafat to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) where he stayed until the Oslo Accords were being negotiated.
Your reader says -- makes a very important point, and that is that we have to get beyond the personalities of these two men. Both men are culpable for bringing their people to the point where neither offers a real vision of peace. But I have to err on the side of the Israelis at this point. It's not the Israelis who reverted to terrorism against civilians. It was Mr. Arafat who began condoning this after he saw Islamic jihad and Hamas take up the mantle after the Israelis removed themselves from Lebanon and it became increasingly apparent to many Arab extremists that they could bleed Israel into concessions because of what the Israelis went through when they withdrew from Lebanon.
So I err on the side of giving the Israelis at least some sympathetic (UNINTELLIGIBLE) here that Mr. Arafat has remained true to form. He really is instinctively a serial terrorist and not a statesman. He's had more than his share of opportunities to be a statesman. And I think that Mr. Sharon still has it within him to be a statesman.
O'BRIEN: All right, Marc. Let's take this one. It comes from -- we just have initials on this one, unfortunately -- J.M. in New York City asks this: "Shouldn't we take care of our own domestic terrorism problem before we deal with other nations?"
GINSBERG: The -- well, our domestic terrorism problem is really on the front lines in Afghanistan and Pakistan and Britain and other countries where terrorists are plotting their activities against the United States. And let me remind viewers that the two principal organizations that are at war with Israel, Hamas and Islamic Jihad -- both of which are not merely seeking the removal of Israeli forces from the West Bank, but want to destroy Israel -- are responsible for killing scores and scores of Americans around the world. And both them and Hezbollah, which is supported by Iran and by Syria, have attacked American forces and American civilians. So let's not get too dewy-eyed here about the Palestinian leadership and about the Palestinian terrorist squads. They have targeted not only Israelis, but also Americans.
O'BRIEN: Marc Ginsberg, we're going to leave it at that. More email, more opportunities for Marc to answer them, as well as some of our other guests and reporters all throughout the morning. We invite you to keep those emails in.
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