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CNN Sunday Morning

Interview with Wayne Owens, Marc Ginsberg

Aired March 31, 2002 - 09:01   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Well, if you've been watching us this morning you know we've been following what police say is another suicide bombing in Israel. The blast demolished a restaurant in the seaside city of Haifa.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: All right -- and we will take it back to Marc Ginsberg, who is in Washiington with us, as we have been allowing these details to settle in here, if you will.

Another e-mail for you. This one is a provacative one, Marc.

"If apartheid was wrong in South Africa, then why isn't what Israel is doing to the Palestinians equally wrong? And why on earth does the U.S. fund the Israelis with billions of dollars per year?"

"Money is fungible so doesn't this U.S. money go in part to expand illegal settlements and to weapons killing Palestinian civilians?"

That's from Micahael Brown in Baltimore.

MARC GINSBERG, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO MOROCCO: Let me try to put this in a perspective. I've been involved with the Palestinian refugees ever since I came to Washington back in 1969. They have really suffered under -- for a whole variety of reasons.

They have been never treated adequately well by the Arab states. The Israelis have not -- have treated them in ways which are really insufferable. Their lives have been deeply effected by the occupation. They have every reason to be greiving for the losses they suffered and I have an enormous empathy for their plight.

They have resorted to extremism in ways that, however, are unacceptable because it doesn't get them out of the problem that they face.

They have to face the determination over whether or not they are being provided adequate leadership by Mr. Arafat to lead them into a promiseland of statehood or whether or not he is going to go down as he wishes to go -- as a martyr -- without negoatiating the compromises that are necessary to give the Israeli people reasons to believe that the Palestinian people, despite their suffering, are people who deserve to be treated as co-equals, as partners in peace. Now that -- I just can't condone, however, that the use -- that the Israeli occupation has been that difficult on them to permit them and to encourage them to justify attacks on Israel and Israeli civilians and Israeli targets.

And I must say that now the Israelis are convinced that these attacks are really not just meant in retaliation for the occupation but as a way to undermine the very territorial integrity of Israel.

PHILLIPS: Marc, we're going to ask you to continue to stand by with us. We're going to talk -- go now to Jerusalem to our Jerusalem bureau chief Mike Hanna for more now on the blast that has demolished this restaurant in the seaside city of Haifa.

Mike, what can you tell us?

MIKE HANNA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the latest we have heard is that the death toll in this blast -- 14 people killed according to medical authorities in the northern port city of Haifa. Also killed in the blast -- a 15th person dead -- the suicide bomber who carried out the attack.

More than 30 people have been injured in this blast -- the latest in a series of suicide bomb attacks against Israeli civilians. Also in the course of the mroning -- Israeli forces continuing their operations in the West Bank cities of Ramallah in the very heart of the compound of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat.

And within the last half hour CNN's Michael Holmes spoke to Yasser Arafat and this is what he has to say.

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: An extraordinary scene has taken place here at Yasser Arafat's compound. A group of foreign and Palestinian peace supporters have marched down this road. They have marched past an armored personnel carrier and marched straight into Yasser Arafat's office.

We followed in with them. On the way in shots were fired -- warning shots. Everyone just kept on moving. It must have been a group of 40 or so and some media who followed in.

We went in. We were taken up. We saw Yasser Arafat who appeared fit and healthy and certainly defiant. He says that he's calling on the international community to step in. He says that he is under seige there. He is surrounded by some very heavily armed protection force people. They are carrying AK-47s and heavy caliber machine guns.

They say they are staying where they are. Yasser Arafat says he is staying where he is. He says he doesn't care if he dies. he wants the troops to pull back.

Some of these peace activists have stayed inside. We have just left. We couldn't get a telephone signal out. We came out under a white flag and marched out across the compound. We were searched by Israeli troops as we left. We are now outside the walls. Some of those peace activitists -- among them French, even one Israeli, Germans, American -- are staying inside with Yasser Arafat and his advisers.

HANNA: That's CNN's Michael Holmes who reported to us a short while ago from the West Bank city of Ramallah.

Just to get back to that attack in Haifa that has killed at least 14 Israelis, the militant Hamas group claimed responsibility for that explosion. We had heard conflicting claims of responsibility but Hamas (ph) has now provided the name of the man who it says carried out this terror attack. He is Ashadi Al Terassi (ph) from the West Bank city of Jeannine (ph).

That's according to the Hamas claim of responsibility for that suicide terror attack.

Now within the last few seconds we're receiving reports of another explosion -- this time in a West Bank settlement.

According to these very initial reports -- at least three Israelis have been injured in an explosion at the settlement in the West Bank.

Ongoing violence, ongoing loss of life, more and more people wounded as each hour goes by. Back to you.

PHILLIPS: Yeah -- I don't want to put him on the spot. All right -- Mike Hanna live from Jerusalem. Sorry -- a lot of people talking and a lot of stuff going on right now. I apologize for talking over there -- over you there for a moment. Mike Hanna, we'll continue to check in with you from Jerusalem. Miles?

O'BRIEN: All right -- it's time to put one of our guests on the spot here. Wayne Owens, who is one of our Middle East analysts, who has been talking to us all morning.

Wayne, are you with us?

WAYNE OWENS, CENTER FOR MIDDLE EAST PEACE: Yes, I'm here.

O'BRIEN: All right.

OWENS: I'm in Salt Lake City.

O'BRIEN: Well, we're glad to have you with us wherever you may be. We appreciate your insights.

Let's get right back to an e-mail. Here's a fairly interesting one and maybe you can help clarify this because I'm sure there are many viewers who agree with Dennis on this point of confusion.

"I'm confused," he says, "Some guests on CNN over the last couple of days say Arafat has been condoning terrorist bombings and some say he has publicly deprived them. It seems to me that there must be audio and video tape of these announcements. I'd like to get the straight goods on this very important point."

Thank you, Dennis.

OWENS: Well, I think, first of all, he is accurate. He has both -- Arafat has both condoned and condemned them -- not condone them publicly but he has condemned them publicly and in Arabic as well as in English.

It seems like Arafat who was, of course, a terrorist for many, many years vowed first in Geneva in December '68 and then again in Oslo at the time of the Oslo signing on the White House lawn in '93 renounced further use of violence and as -- for . . .

I did, I think, for a period of time until about 20 months ago, fought to try to keep violence from happening. And since the second Intefada began in September of 2000 he has increasingly not only condoned I think it happening but has tried to benefit from it.

But periodically he seemed to gathered new courage and made an effort to try to stop it. and in two periods last fall -- I think one in November and one in December -- he did make some real progress. There was a genuine lessening of violence in December I think as a result of his address to his people on December 16th and his subsequent orders.

But it has become increasingly difficult for him to stand up against the increasingly popular action against Israel. The people of -- the Palestinian people coming to feel very strongly that only -- Israel will only respond to violence.

And, hence, I think he is -- having allowed Hamas and Islamic Jihad these two Islamic fundamentalist terrorist organizations who are basically the counterpart of Al-Qaeda and connected to indirectly with them has allowed them increasingly to become powerful.

Until now I think even if he really watns to -- and I think periodically he would like to -- he can't do very much agains them. But he could do more than he is. But it's very difficult under his current circumstances to expect that he can do anything other than, as Ambassador Ginsberg said earlier, revert to his original feelings.

And he is being surrounded and basically caputred, in essence, by the Israelis. I'm sure every germ of that instinct is flowing in his veins today.

So he has both embraced it and condemned it depending on what his needs as he say them were.

O'BRIEN: All right. So the answer, in essence, to that question of whether he condones it or decries it is -- yes -- he does both.

All right. C. Kern in Florida has this, "Am I the only one in the U.S. that believes Israel is the instigator of all of this mess by occupying Palestinian's land? I thought it was wrong when Israel did this and I think it is wrong today. My heart goes out to the Palestinians. And Sharon will one day be prosecuted for war crimes."\ This issue of Palestinian land -- is it accurate to call it Palestinian land, Mr. Owens?

OWENS: Well, in 1948, as you know, the United Nations partioned what was then called Palestine into -- to create both an Israeli state -- the State of Israel -- and to give certain lands to the Palestinians.

And they, simply, with their Arab neighbors, could not accept the partition and the following year went to war.

And Israel -- in that war the Israelis, of course, captured additional land and held it -- that additional land over a series of wars over suceeding years. And until in 1967 and '68 in a war they took the West Bank and Gaza -- that disputed land that we're talking about today.

So they occupied that land until the following -- the Oslo agreements in 1995. Arafat moved back and they gave them initially Jericho and Gaza and then they gave him the other eight big cities on the West Bank until today he is in charge basically of about 42 percent of the West Bank and of about 65 percent of Gaza.

So they've gradually given it up. But because of the terrorist activities on the part of different Palestinian groups not all of which were directed or condoned by Arafat at least in the beginning, they have given up and Israel has re-entered and reoccupied much of that territory, which earlier they yielded back to the Palestinians.

O'BRIEN: Wayne Owens, we appreciate your insights. We want you to stay in close contact with us throughout the morning as we continue our coverage.

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