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CNN Sunday Morning

Interview with Mark Perry,Marc Ginsberg

Aired April 07, 2002 - 07:08   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Well, joining me now from Washington to talk about Secretary of State Powell's mission to the Mid East are Marc Ginsberg, former U.S. ambassador to Morocco and Mid East policy adviser to President Clinton and Mark Perry, veteran Middle East analyst with close ties to the Palestinian leadership and author of "A Fire In Zion: The Israeli-Palestinian Search For Peace."

Gentlemen, good morning.

MARK PERRY, AUTHOR, "A FIRE IN ZION": Good morning, Kyra.

PHILLIPS: Well, let's begin with Bush urging Sharon to withdraw the troops from these areas and how he feels doing that will determine the success of Colin Powell's trip. I'm curious what both of you think of that. If you think that is true and we can define success and talk about, if indeed, this is the answer.

Marc Ginsberg, why don't we start with you?

MARC GINSBERG, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO MOROCCO: There's no doubt that Secretary Powell's trip is important in so far as convincing first and foremost both the Israeli government and Arab leaders of the important of jumpstarting a political process that'll be crucial to determine the final credibility of Mr. Arafat to be able to do anything, to reign in militants and to, in effect, recreate some semblance of a line of communications with the Israelis, which may be indeed dead for all intensive purposes.

In order for Mr. Powell to accomplish the objective of convincing the Israelis to leave, its' first and foremost going to be important for him to try to convince the Arab moderate states that joining him in an effort to implement a political process will be crucial. And it's clear that they will expect from him and from President Bush to get further pressure on the Israeli government to not just expedite the withdrawal but to show tangible evidence that he's pulling back from all of these cities.

PHILLIPS: Mark Perry?

PERRY: Well, I'm personally optimistic but politically realistic. I agree with Mr. Ginsberg, there has to be a political program on the table here. Certainly, the Palestinians expect that. But over the last 24 hours, we've had some setbacks to the optimism than I think a lot of people thought yesterday. It's not clear whether Mr. Powell will agree to meet with Mr. Arafat.

And Mr. Bush has put pressure on Ariel Sharon and Ariel Sharon's response has basically been no, he's going to expedite not withdrawing from the West Bank with the offensive that he's engaged in.

We're facing a major humanitarian crisis in Jenin this morning. It looks to me like the situation is not getting better. It's getting worse.

PHILLIPS: Marc Ginsberg, you mentioned the political process, there needs to be some type of offer here with regard to a political process. How do you do that without making it look like it's a reward for terrorist activities?

GINSBERG: Well, that's absolutely crucial and there's no doubt that the Palestinian leadership as well as the militants can't believe that they've actually been able to bleed Israel back to the negotiating table. But there's no doubt that the -- that the perimeters of where both parties have to go is clear. The issue is how do we get the Tenet Ceasefire Plan in place and that the Mitchell Plan, the so-called opening to a political process expedited.

In order to reward terrorism, it's crucial that both the United States and moderate Arab allies who are -- indeed support a conceptual framework that was laid out in Beirut, that is the so-called plan put forward by Crown Prince Abdullah, essentially says the following to Mr. Arafat -- you have a choice. You had a reasonable offer on the table to discuss with the Israelis before. If you thought that by resorting to terrorism and betraying, as the president said, your people that should be able to force the Israelis to concede more than that, may not be possible.

From the Israeli point-of-view, Mr. Sharon is going to have to offer a vision for peace and offer the Palestinians more than what he's put on the table before. And that may indeed require both parties to go back to where Mr. Clinton's principals were as well as the Tober Principles that were actually negotiated between the Palestinians and Israelis at the very tail end of the Clinton administration, which offers a very reasonable roadmap back to the negotiating table.

PHILLIPS: So you can imagine I'm getting a number of e-mails. We've continued to get a number of e-mails throughout the days. I'd like to get a -- to a couple of them and Mark Perry, I'll have you respond first to this one.

PERRY: All right.

PHILLIPS: This comes from Jahm. "Don't you find it strange that the Arab nations have not directed orders for Arafat stop the suicide bombings? Colin Powell, when he goes over there, should start talking logical questions of Arafat as to why he made statements to different publications that his will is to destroy Israel, that the land may be his and in order to do that, will continue to buy children to blow themselves up." PERRY: I think I have to make it very clear -- and I think it's becoming obvious to the American government that Mr. Arafat has been demonized. We've been focusing on Mr. Arafat as if -- if he were to disappear tonight, Palestinian nationals would not be here tomorrow. This is not about Arafat. This is about competing visions of nationalism on the same piece of land.

The United States has to deal with the leadership that is there and elected. Obviously, there are deep, deep feelings in the Arab world, but we have to return to the peace process. We have to -- we have to recruit both leaderships in that peace process and Secretary Powell has to go over with a plan, a political plan, to get both sides back to the table.

PHILLIPS: Marc Ginsberg, do you think Arafat is a diversion here?

GINSBERG: I think there's two major obstacles to peace in the Middle East, Mr. Arafat's abstinence and the refusal of the Israel government to deal with the most fundamental issue that separates a political process from reality and that is what ultimately to do about the settlements, which are actually going to have to be addressed.

But based on the fact that both President Clinton and President Bush have essentially been double-crossed by Mr. Arafat and that both -- Mr. Bush has gone as far as indicating that he's betrayed the interest of his own people. It makes it clear that what Mr. Powell's first and -- first job, really, job one is going to be to try to find a way to convince moderate Arab states that see the escalating violence as a threat to their own regimes, that Mr. Arafat and his position represents a true danger to their own stability in addition to an obstacle to the process.

At the same time, the Palestinian people need to come to closure as to what type of agreement they're prepared to reach. It may very well be that moderate Palestinians and Mr. Arafat are going to have to part company sooner rather than later.

PHILLIPS: Mark Perry, one final thought.

PERRY: Well, I obviously disagree. I think we're rewriting history here. The offer that was on the table really wasn't on the table at Camp David of 85 percent of the land and Israel controls the borders. We can't go back there.

I agree with Mr. Ginsberg, we have to go back to Tober. If the United States made a commitment today to go back to Tober and reasserted its endorsement of the Saudi plan, I think that we would have the outlines of political process and a political solution that would be acceptable to both sides.

PHILLIPS: You mentioned history and we want to talk about that more in the 8:00 hour. We have received a number of questions with regard to the history of Israel and this conflict. So Marc Ginsberg, Mark Perry, we'll see back in the next hour. Thanks so much.

GINSBERG: You're welcome.

PERRY: Thank you.

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