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CNN Sunday Morning

Interview with Marc Ginsberg, Mark Perry

Aired April 07, 2002 - 08:09   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Well, in the Middle East, the past is always present, making the future such an unpredictable business. Joining us to consider the role of history in the Middle East and how it impacts the region today are Marc Ginsberg, former U.S. ambassador to Morocco and Mark Perry author of "A Fire in Zion."

Gentlemen, thanks again for joining us each hour this morning.

MARC GINSBERG, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO MOROCCO: Good morning, Kyra.

MARK PERRY, AUTHOR, "A FIRE IN ZION": Good morning.

PHILLIPS: Well, we wanted to talk a little about the history. As you know, we've been taking a lot of e-mail questions and a lot of questions with regard to the history of this Middle East conflict. So I'm just going to get right to it.

This one comes from A.F. Nerryman (ph) in Williamsville, New York. The question -- "Based on the Oslo Peace Accords, for nine plus years, we've insisted on peace first and then land. Is it now time to ask for Israel to withdraw all the settlements first and then hold Arafat responsible for the peace."

Mark Perry, why don't we start with you?

PERRY: It's a great question. The Palestinians have always claimed that a peace deal must precede a cease fire. That's what they've claimed lately. But I must say the Oslo Accord worked for many years. The Land For Peace formula did work for many years as long as there was partners on both sides willing to implement it.

And we had, from '93 to '96, until the assassination of Yitsak Rabin (ph), very close cooperation between the Israeli and Palestinian leadership. We have to rebuild that confidence. I think that that's one of Secretary Powell's major goals in his journey that starts tonight, is to rebuild the confidence between the leaderships of the two sides and we'll see if it succeeds.

PHILLIPS: Marc Ginsberg, what can you add to that?

GINSBERG: I would only add that the issue of Land For Peace is embodied in U.N. Resolution 242 and 338 as well as this, frankly, very courageous initiative on the part of the Arab League to put forward the same principles. It's offering Israel a much greater conceptual framework for peace than what Mr. Arafat and the Palestinians had offered and that is broader Arab acceptance in return for a very difficult decision for the Israeli government and for the Israeli public to make the tough choice over what to do about the settlements on the West Bank.

And I would say that part of the equation of Land For Peace did result in success in the past. After all, in -- after the 1973 War, there was a brokered ceasefire by Henry Kissinger and then a decision by the then Began government to withdraw from the Sinai Peninsula in exchange for a peace treaty with Israel. And that treaty between Egypt and Israel has survived the visatudes of violence and the ups and downs of relation between the two countries.

So that -- although it's not a very warm peace, there is still an agreement and the Israelis have at least a precedent for believing that there can be land for peace.

PHILLIPS: This question comes from Jennifer Shaw in Illinois. "My question to the reporters and to the epilochen (ph) of government is this -- why are we even involved in the dispute between the Israelis and the Palestinians? It seems to me that this isn't even our fight." She brings up a good point.

You know, we've been talking about the economic reasons. We're feeling the hit at the stock market. Prices of oil, of course, being affected. What do you two think about the -- is it the buildup of violence that is causing President Bush to react, or is it economic interests solely? Mark Perry?

PERRY: Well, I think we have a long strategic relationship with Israel. And we've always been turned to as the arbiter in this dispute and I think rightly so. The Europeans certainly can't do it. There's a strong perception that they're not friends of Israel ultimately. The United Nations is mistrusted by the Israeli leadership, and I think for good historical reasons.

The United States has been a friend of Israel for a long time and, frankly, on the Palestinian side, the mediation of the United States is trusted and the Palestinians welcome the trip of Colin Powell back to the region. They look forward to hearing his ideas on what a political process is. So the United States has a very definite, strong role to play, has in the past and I think it will in the future.

PHILLIPS: Marc Ginsberg?

GINSBERG: You have broader strategic interests that play off the following --, first, Israel is a strong Democratic ally of the United States in the region where there isn't a great deal of democracies. Secondly, we have made a fundamental commitment to the safety and security of Israel. Third, we have a stake in bringing about a peaceful settlement if we are to live up to our commitments to the Palestinian people who have suffered from both history as well as from the current events. We owe it to ourselves to live up to our principles in the region, to stand up for a democrat, to bring a Democratic Palestinian state into being side-by-side living peacefully with Israel. The Palestinian people are entitled to that.

We also have broader interests in not letting terrorism and extremism in the Middle East undermine the integrity of our own interests not only in Israel but also in defending those regimes that may see our failure to stand tall against terrorism and democracies and opportunity to undermine regimes that are -- were under attack by bin Laden, such as Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

So we have broader interests at stake, first and foremost defending Israel and democracy, secondly, making sure that no terrorist or extremist element in a region believes that they can undermine American interest. We have to stand tall.

PHILLIPS: American interest, this is another e-mail that sort of folds into what we're talking about a bit. It brings up a bit of a different point. This one from Louise. "Israel is our only ally in the Middle East, the only democracy. Why do I not hear more in-depth discussion about the impact upon American if Israel does not exist?" Mark Perry.

PERRY: Israel's not our only ally in the Middle East. we have strong good relations with Egypt. We have strong relations with Saudi Arabia. We have very strong relations with Jordan. All of these nations are making the very difficult transition from traditional societies to industrial, postmodern societies and to democracy.

There is a thriving democracy in Jordan. The Palestinian people themselves have had a strong tradition of secular leadership. They have an election there. They have a legislature. They had a presidential election that was monitored. We have strong interests in the Arab world. We have good friends there and it's in our interest to defend them and to help promote their democracy.

GINSBERG: Well, there's no doubt that we certainly have, in terms of democracies in the region -- I may disagree a bit with Mr. Perry that Turkey and Israel are truly the two longstanding democracies in the region.

But we also have an obligation to stand up to our principles in the Middle East and to promote democracy and the values of human rights. Countries throughout that region have expeditiously avoided making the hard choices for democratic reform in the region. And while Jordan and Egypt and others are indeed friends, none of their leaders have been elected by democratic vote and we have to live -- be real to our own needs and interests in the region by defending the evolution of democracy, but first and foremost, Israel is an important ally and is an important investment of the United States in the maintaining democracies in the region.

PHILLIPS: Final e-mail. This comes from Kenneth. "Please explain to your audience how Israel, a nation of six million Jews and a region of 100 million Palestinians, 250 million Arabs and 800 million Muslims, can be depicted as Goliath? Are they themselves not barely holding onto their lives?" Mark Perry.

GINSBERG: Well, I would... PERRY: Well, it's the most well armed nation with the strongest defense in the region and it's not six million views it's actually one-quarter of the population of Israel is not Jewish. It's Arab- Israeli. And it's a very strong military thanks to years and years of foreign aid and assistance from the United States.

You know, to be very honest, there isn't any military in the Middle East that can compete with Israel. They are the Goliath. We see it in Jenin today where there's a huge humanitarian crisis. Men and women, and children in refugee camps now are facing tanks. I think Bush administration is right to call for an immediate withdrawal from the Israelis and I hope they heed that call.

PHILLIPS: Marc Ginsberg?

GINSBERG: I think that it's important for our viewers to understand that the suicide bombers and the homicide that have occurred inside Israel have undermined Israel's sense of security. It may have the strongest Army militarily, but the fact remains is that terrorism instigated by Palestinians against Israeli civilians has undermined the sense of security under -- in a country that has been -- has not faced a day of peace since its founding in 1948.

So I don't subscribe to the view that you have a Goliath and David here situation. What you essentially have is Israel fighting those terrorist organizations that have been supported by Palestinians that are not bent on just seeing Israel withdraw to the 67 boundaries, but are very honestly determined to annihilate it.

Hamas, Islamic Jihad and others have no interest in the Powell mission or in Mr. Arafat's willingness to make peace or the Palestinians' desire to convince the Israelis they're prepared to live side-by-side. These organizations are determined to destroy Israel and to undermine its very security. So, it does feel under siege and that's why you see these incursions to root out these terrorist organizations.

PHILLIPS: Well, as you two can see, we get a lot of passionate e-mails. I myself get very overwhelmed by all the comments and the questions, a lot of facts, numbers and details. And that's why we have the two of you to help sort it out and absolutely remained balanced. Marc Ginsberg and Mark Perry, thank you so much. We'll see you again next hour, OK?

GINSBERG: Sure.

PHILLIPS: Terrific.

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