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CNN Sunday Morning

Gun Battle in West Bank Refugee Camp Between Palestinians and Israelis

Aired April 07, 2002 - 09:06   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Well meanwhile, there's new fighting today at one of the latest hot spots in the crisis, the large Palestinian refugee camp at Jenin in the West Bank. CNN's Rula Amin is nearby. She joins us now live with the latest from there. Rula.

RULA AMIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning. You're looking now at Israeli Apache helicopter gun ships hovering over Jenin refugee camp. It's a home for about 15,000 Palestinian refugees, have been witnessing fierce gun battles between Israeli soldiers and Palestinian gunmen.

For the last four days at least, we have been hearing many reports of a large number of casualties. Palestinians are saying about from 70 to 100 Palestinians have been killed during this Israeli operation, including many civilians.

This is a number that we can not verify. We are not allowed to go in as journalists and also we are hearing from the Palestinians there that ambulances have not been able to enter this camp.

The Israeli army says that this is an operation aimed at hunting Palestinian militants very much responsible for more suicide attacks against Israeli civilians in the last period, and that they are determined they're going to destroy and undermine the infrastructure for those Palestinian militants in order to stop and halt attacks against Israeli civilians.

It's a fierce gun battle that has been raging for the last few days. It has been intensifying. Since the morning, we have seen helicopters firing missiles on to the camp. From residents of the camp, we have been hearing also reports of very heavy tank shellfire coming to the camp, a lot of destruction and a lot of damage. Back to you.

PHILLIPS: Rula Amin, joining us with the latest there from Jenin in the West Bank, thank you.

Well, we want to bring back our guests this hour for some analysis, some more analysis. Mark Ginsberg, former U.S. Ambassador to Morocco and Mark Perry, author of "A Fire in Zion." They're both in our Washington Bureau. Hello again, gentlemen.

Here we go again. All right, we have a number of e-mail questions surrounding basically the situation in the Middle East. Whose fault is it on behalf of the view -- well talking about the U.S. Presidents and Bush and Clinton, we got a number of e-mails addressing this, and I'm just curious -- we're are able to go? OK, we're going to go, let's get right to them guys. Here we go.

The first one, this comes from George: "It looks like Sharon is not pulling out as of this morning's news, so what is Bush going to do now? Wait a few days and get angry, wait for more public pressure to build up, then decide to do something? I feel he does not have the capacity to fully understand the implications of getting involved, of the timing of getting involved and the delicacies of involvement."

MARK PERRY, AUTHOR, "A FIRE IN ZION": Well, let me respond. It's very clear that there is some friction now in U.S.-Israeli relations. We saw it beginning a week ago. I think it's been going on for some time, when Anthony Zinni was told that he had to ask permission to see Yasser Arafat of the Israeli Prime Minister. This is a knee-buckling pride-swallowing moment, and it caused real irritation in the White House.

Yesterday, we had President Bush say that Ariel Sharon should withdraw Israeli troops without delay, and the response from the Israeli government was that they were considering that, but they wanted to know what the words "without delay" meant.

So there is real irritation here on the part of the United States. I think the pressure will increase. The U.S. does have leverage with the Israeli government. Bush will, if necessary, make another call. Mr. Powell will make another call. But it's very clear that the United States wants an Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank. This military operation, the U.S. government obviously believes needs to end.

PHILLIPS: OK, Mark Ginsberg, I'm going to have you address this next one. What I was trying to say there, we had a couple of different things going on. I apologize for the confusion, but e-mails concerning whose fault Bush Administration or Clinton Administration. This comes from Tom Austin in Cleveland, Ohio.

"What gives here? Virtually all of the world has been critical of the Bush Administration's arms length approach to the cycle of violence. What possible rationale is there for Bush to continue the criticism of Clinton in the midst of such a crucial world conflict?

MARK GINSBERG, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO MOROCCO: Well, I think the President has essentially abandoned the attack of his Press Secretary, who a few weeks ago went out and tried to lay the blame for the violence on the engagement of the Clinton Administration.

A president in a press conference, as well as in an interview, indicated that he supported President Clinton's engagement and the fact remains is that President Clinton and his administration did everything possible to broker an agreement.

And when this president came to office before September 11th, there was clearly a hands off attitude towards the Arab-Israeli conflict, largely because there was a political desire not to replicate what President Clinton had done.

And to justify that action, it was clear that some of the ideologs in the Republican administration were trying to lay the blame for the President's inaction on what happened in President Clinton's administration, which you know frankly, when you get right down to it, both Republicans and Democrats from the beginning of Israel's existence have invested an enormous amount in trying to bring about peace between Israel and its Arab neighbors. And this is not a time, I think, for either Party to be pointing fingers at each other.

PHILLIPS: And this next e-mail runs along with what you just said, Mark.

"You can't blame Clinton for not putting his heart and soul into efforts to bring about a justly brokered peace for the Middle East. Now here's my question, exactly what has Bush and Company put into the effort to bringing peace to the Middle East since they took office?"

Mark Perry?

PERRY: Well, I think the question is rhetorical. The Bush Administration has not done very much, and I agree with Ambassador Ginsberg, a hands off approach here won't work.

The Clinton Administration did really put its heart and soul into trying to find a political resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Unfortunately, those efforts fell short, and there's been a lot of finger pointing, people blaming Clinton, people blaming Arafat, people blaming Ehud Barak.

That time is done. The question now is, what kind of a political program does this Secretary of State plan to put on the table when he visits the Middle East later this week?

PHILLIPS: I am definitely looking forward to that. Finally, an e-mail here gentlemen, this one from Tom Evans in Brooklyn.

"I'm not sure why it's important that we try to place blame on either Bush or Clinton. I don't think either is to blame for violence and hatred that has been going on in Israel long before either of these men even thought of running for President." Good point. We've been talking about the history all morning, haven't we?

GINSBERG: Well, we certainly have, Kyra, and at this point in time, I think the key issue here, if I could get this point of view across, is that regardless of the history at this point in time, both parties, the good people on both sides of this conflict, recognize the importance of getting to a Palestinian State.

The key issue is why is it going to be so difficult to get from here to there? The Secretary of State has shown as much enthusiasm for investing the time and effort in this as a child taking Caster Oil, and I think the administration clearly recognizes the danger to broader American interests to be involved and to convince the Palestinian leadership that it will not be able to bleed Israel into submission, and that Israel has a right to defend itself. And for the Israelis to, particularly this government in Israel to come to recognize the need to treat Palestinians with dignity and to offer them a hope for something better than their current existence entails. And the President, I believe, did a very good job addressing these points in his speech, and I'd rather say better late than never than to criticize the administration for not doing enough at this point.

PHILLIPS: Mark Ginsberg, former Ambassador to Morocco, Mark Perry, author of "A Fire in Zion," we're going to have to leave it there. We have some breaking news we have to go to. Gentlemen, thank you so much. We'll be talking to you, I am sure, soon again.

GINSBERG: Thank you, Kyra.

PERRY: Thank you, Kyra.

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