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CNN Sunday Morning

Powell to Visit Israel-Lebanon Border

Aired April 14, 2002 - 10:02   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: A dramatic day, as I say, here in the Middle East, a day that saw the secretary of state spend three hours in Ramallah with the Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, a day that also now sees the secretary of state planning to leave this area tomorrow to go to Beirut, to meet with top Lebanese officials to make sure the border along Israel and Lebanon remains calm amid provocative acts U.S. officials say from Syrian backed, Iranian-backed Hezbollah guerrillas in southern Lebanon. Secretary presumably will be returning here.

Let's bring in our White House correspondent Major Garrett. He's monitoring all of these developments. The president, Major, has been on a conference call. He's been receiving reports from the secretary of state and his other top advisers. The general mood is that the meeting that the secretary had with Colin Powell was a positive meeting, at least positive enough to generate continued talks among staff-leveled U.S. and Palestinian officials tomorrow.

MAJOR GARRETT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Wolf, positive enough to require a second meeting, but not so positive as to guarantee a second meeting between secretary of state and Yasser Arafat himself. Though the Palestinians say they that happening on Tuesday, the State Department will not confirm that's what's going to happen. What they're going to look for is more progress between these staff-level meetings tomorrow between the president's envoy Anthony Zinni, the former retired Marine general and Secretary of State Powell's G.E. on the ground in the Middle East.

The White House generally using exactly the same cautious, diplomatic language to characterize what happened today in Ramallah. A senior White House aide telling CNN, we echo the secretary's sentiments that the meeting was useful and constructive, but we don't want to go much beyond that. The secretary has maximum flexibility to create an environment of peace. Now a couple of things also worth pointing out, Wolf. The secretary of state, through, rather -- forgive me, his Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage talking to you on CNN a few hours ago, said that there are still more that Yasser Arafat can do. Of course this meeting transpired after Mr. Arafat put out in a written statement in Arabic a condemnation of using terror such as suicide bombing attacks to achieve political ends. Now Richard Armitage made it very clear the administration is looking for some more steps from the Palestinian leader. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) RICHARD ARMITAGE, DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE: I certainly hope they'll be able to flesh out the words that Chairman Arafat mentioned yesterday about the reduction in violence. I think they'll be looking for ways for Chairman Arafat to actually use the bully pulpit of his leadership as required and called on -- called upon by our president to bring clearly home to his people, that violence to accomplish political ends is not going to be effective. I think we have to find the way forward to that equally. The secretary will be working with our friends in Israel to try to effect even further withdrawals, as the president has called for.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GARRETT: So there you see it, Wolf, the two tracts of this. Clearly, the administration would like to see Yasser Arafat go beyond just a written statement condemning terrorism. But also there'll be intense conversations with the Israelis to make more definitive, more demonstrable, more measurable pullbacks of Israeli defense forces to try to increase the level of confidence between both sides. Confidence that I think is fair to say has been almost shattered by the cycle of violence of the last couple of weeks.

But the administration has given the secretary of state broad latitude to pursue those goals. The White House does not in any way want to suggest that it is micro managing the secretary of state's mission there. That's why you're seeing language expressed here at the White House almost exactly the same as the secretary of state's words on the ground there in Ramallah and Jerusalem -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Major, earlier this week, the Vice President, Dick Cheney, was on the phone with Syrian President, Bashar al-Assad urging restraint, urging that the Syrians hold back the Hezbollah guerrillas in southern Lebanon from launching those mortars against Israeli positions in a disputed area known as Sheba Farms along the Israeli- Lebanese-Syrian triangular or border area.

How concerned are top officials in the Bush administration about a potential second front opening up for the Israelis along that border with Lebanon?

GARRETT: Well in his interview with you, Wolf, Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage said, very, very concerned. I think that is even an understatement, even with the two verys involved there. The administration is deeply, deeply, extremely concerned about this conflict currently between the Israelis and the Palestinians spreading into Lebanon and Syria, becoming something that spins almost out of control.

And the vice president's telephone call really did not generate much. The continued firing of cotusia (ph) rockets and mortars over that disputed border continued all week long. Now administration officials said, look, it could have been worse, had Vice President Cheney not made that call. We received some private assurances that things will get better. But clearly Secretary of State Powell believes it has reached a level of crisis that he needs to go to Beirut. There is active talk, which the Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage in no way tried to tamp down that he might also go to Damascus to personalize this U.S. request that Syria and Lebanon and Iran lean on Hezbollah to make sure this thing does not spin out of control.

I would say the first and foremost goal for Secretary of State Powell based on all my conversations with senior officials here, is contain this crisis, obtain a cease-fire, if you can, improve the political environment as best you can. But first and foremost contain this, keep it from spreading beyond the current confines of the conflict. And if that happens, at least in that small respect, Wolf, many here at the White House will consider the secretary of state's visit a success -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Major Garrett reporting from the White House. Thank you very much. I believe we now have the Foreign Minister of Israel, Shimon Peres in Tel Aviv joining us live now. Mr. Foreign Minister -- Mr. Minister thanks so much for joining us. So what's your immediate reaction -- excuse me, unfortunately, the foreign minister is not yet ready. Let's take a quick break. When we come back, we'll speak live with Shimon Peres, the Foreign Minister of Israel.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to our continuing coverage of the crisis in the Middle East. I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting live from Jerusalem. Joining us from Tel Aviv is Israeli's Foreign Minister Shimon Peres. Mr. Minister, thanks so much for joining us. After you and your late colleague, then Prime Minister of Israel Yitzhak Rabin signed that Oslo agreement on the south lawn of the White House, September of 1993, you, Rabin, and Yasser Arafat all won the Nobel Peace Prize. Do you still believe that when all is said and done that Yasser Arafat is a legitimate peace partner for Israel right now?

SHIMON PERES, ISRAELI FOREIGN MINISTER: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that he was elected by the Palestinian people and we cannot replace the Palestinian people. We cannot elect their leaders or fire them. But they think Arafat has to do some -- has to take some proposals to become a leader. The most important one, I would say, is to establish a single authority among the Palestinians of the arms, the carriers of arms, and the use of it. Otherwise, he will be hitting a chaotic situation.

BLITZER: So, do you believe that the Secretary of State of the United States Colin Powell did the right thing today when he went to Ramallah and sat down with Yasser Arafat for three hours?

PERES: I think that if he want to talk with the Palestinians, Arafat remains the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of talking with them. I don't see anybody else that the secretary could have approached in order to have a meaningful dialogue.

BLITZER: Are you -- are you encouraged, Mr. Minister, that following that three-hour meeting the secretary announced there would be continued talks, lower level talks between Israeli and Palestinian officials, that possibly a second round of talks with Yasser Arafat on Tuesday?

PERES: I think that on one hand, we have to settle some complicated issues. Like, for example, when we allow army redeploy itself to the previous positions before the present operations started.

Initially we said it will take four weeks. Well, two weeks already have passed, so it's another matter maybe of 10 days or two weeks unless there will be some unexpected events. So when the Palestinians are saying they want us to go out, we never intended to remain there, and it can be relatively (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

On the other hand, we have to give (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to some new ideas. The old ideas, the previous ideas were aged and overused. I think one of the important ideas that came over the table is to have a regional conference with all the parties concerned coming together and trying to lay out an agenda like it was done 10 years ago in Madrid.

BLITZER: Some Palestinians, Mr. Minister, say that simply is stalling tactic on the part of your government, the Israeli government, that there's no need for this kind of Madrid-like international conference at this point. The immediate need, these Palestinians say, is for Israel simply to withdraw from the territories.

PERES: Well, the Palestinians who say it must show that they control the situation. As long as there are more bombs and more terror and more violence, so you cannot use only your lips to recreate a situation. You have to use your imagination and the control of other the events. Say they would say, well, we can control it, I would say, you know, point blank, if you can stop terror, there is no sense to wait. But if you cannot stop terror, and unfortunately, that is the present situation, we have to look for bridges to cross the very big outrage that exists among the people on our side and on their side.

BLITZER: Mr. Minister, correct me if I'm wrong, but I sense some differences within your national unity government. Some of your colleagues, Likud members in particular, say they've written off Yasser Arafat. They say he's a terrorist and should not be even considered in negotiations. You've not written him off by any means, have you?

PERES: We have differences. It's a coalition government. It's not a secret. We have different parties and clearly, the party I represent does not agree with the Likud party. We don't make any secrets about it. Now when it comes to Arafat, I'm really trying to see or think who should in the eyes of the other people, replace him? I mean, maybe there are other candidates to succeed him, but I don't think they will be better or more promising. We cannot force the Palestinians to change their leaders, but we have to press upon the Palestinians to change their policies -- namely, to stop terror and end terror and enter into a meaningful negotiation.

BLITZER: How concerned are you, Mr. Minister, about the tensions along the border between Israel and Lebanon? As you know, the secretary of state will be going to Beirut tomorrow, Monday, for meetings with Lebanese officials to try to urge calm along Israeli's border with Lebanon, and, indeed, with Syria as well.

PERES: I'm very much concerned because the Hezbollah are spoilers and the Lebanese don't have really control over them, and the Syrians are putting on a face that they can control, they cannot control. Let's not forget that in Damascus itself, there are 10 headquarters of different terroristic organizations. And, yet Syria is a member of the Security Council. It's absurd. The Syrians must decide if they belong to the security of the world or the insecurity of the world of terror. They cannot go on like it. And I think the visit of Secretary Powell to Syria is of great importance. He has to tell them the naked truth.

BLITZER: Well, you have information that he's going to be going to Syria as well as -- as well as Beirut, Lebanon, because so far, we've only heard official confirmation that he's going to Beirut. Do you know that he'll be meeting with President Bashar al-Assad in Damascus as well?

PERES: Well clearly, the Lebanese, too, must play a role in their own integrity, in their own independence. Today they're becoming more and more submitted to the whims of the Hezbollah, which is a terrorist group that takes orders from Iran. So I think to talk with the Lebanese is important at this point. You know, the Syrians are interested, in a way, to be respected, and appear as a responsible country. If they want to be respected and responsible, they have to take measures to stop the deterioration in Lebanon. Now, the Lebanese government is asking for help, and, may I say also, in favor of the Lebanese government, they have developed the southern part of Lebanon quite impressively.

If troubles will begin there, the first victims will be those farmers and businessmen that developed the southern part of Lebanon. And for us, they're no longer a part of Israel. Here, really, is a crazy group of people with a religious cloak trying to put an end to any effort to make peace.

BLITZER: That sounds to me, Mr. Minister, correct me if I'm wrong, like you're threatening to retaliate against positions in southern Lebanon including presumably Syrian positions, if these mortar attacks against Israeli troops, within the so-called Sheba Farms area, if they continue.

PERES: No, I am not threatening. On the contrary, I think Israel has shown a great deal of restraint. But if (UNINTELLIGIBLE) there will be fire against us, what do they expect us to do? I mean I know ...

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Will you hold Syria directly ...

(CROSSTALK) BLITZER: Will you hold Syria directly responsible?

PERES: We should hold Syria directly responsible for trying seriously to prevent this outburst of fire.

BLITZER: What about this situation in Bethlehem? Today is Sunday. The situation in Bethlehem remains, as it's been, a standoff, a serious standoff -- some 200 Palestinian gunmen inside the Church of the Nativity. We've now heard from a spokesman for your government saying Israel has come up with a proposal to let them leave, those 200 gunmen to get safe passage and leave this area, forever in effect, although it's doubtful that Palestinians necessarily will support that. Do you have any other way of trying to ease that situation?

PERES: No, they're armed people. They are people who should be blamed for many acts of terror and violence. We have approached the Vatican. We told them that we wand want to respect the holiness of the church. We don't want our forces in any way to penetrate or disturb the position of this church as it is being accepted by all of us. And for that reason, we told the Vatican that we are ready to let the people who are in the church to go abroad and bring an end to the story.

For us it's quite a difficult situation because among the people who are there, there are real murderers. There are real people that are to be blamed for many acts of terror and violence. But since we want to bring a peaceful end to this story, and, by the way, the Vatican says the Palestinians were the ones who violated the holiness of the church. We are proposing what we did propose.

BLITZER: You know your government is also being severely criticized by the Palestinians and elsewhere around the world for what's happened over these past few days in the Palestinian refugee camp in Jenin, on the West Bank, accusations of an Israeli massacre against Palestinians. Are you now prepared to allow independent observers from the Red Cross, from the U.N., journalists, to go into that camp and see first hand what may have occurred?

PERES: It is our intention, once the fire will be stopped. But I want to tell you, about Jenin, there are rumors and there are facts. What we are dealing and facing is more rumors than facts. I would like to mention two points. One, most of the buildings that were destroyed were trapped by mines. And they became, you know, a living bomb.

And also, many of the people -- the ones who even surrendered, became a human mine. They carried explosives on their body. I must say it was a bitter struggle, a bitter fight in Jenin. We have lost 23 soldiers. It's not an easy proposition for any of us. And I (UNINTELLIGIBLE) given orders not to hit any civilian. And to the best of my knowledge, the Army took it very seriously.

The men that went there are people of reserve, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) people with experience. Everybody could have listened to their reports and attitudes, and we didn't want to create anything that looks like or is a massacre. BLITZER: If you have, Mr. Minister, nothing to hide, why not simply let those independent, outside observers into Jenin?

PERES: I'm telling you, there is still an exchange of fire in Jenin, and they can be caught by a crossfire. But I think the Army is thinking of opening up Jenin for the visitors and eventually it will be open. I know it will take a day or less than that or more than that, but within a very short period of time, Jenin will be opened.

BLITZER: As you know, there's been a proposal now floated out there of having some sort of international presence, international force, perhaps including U.S. troops, separate Israelis and Palestinians on the West Bank. Is this an idea that your government is ready to accept?

PERES: No. We think that before we have observers, you have to decide what are they going to observe, namely you have to have an agreement. If you don't have an agreement, what will the observers going to do? What can they do? So the first step, before we talk about observers, is really to decide, where are the lines? Who is in charge? And then discuss the possibility of observers. We have agreed, by the way, to have American observers ready a few months ago in Gaza in order to supervise a very complicated point in the southern part of Gaza in Rafah. It didn't materialize for different reasons.

But I believe that what is really needed is an agreement before any observations.

BLITZER: The Foreign Minister of Israel, Shimon Peres, thanks so much for joining us today from Tel Aviv. We appreciate it very much.

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