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CNN Sunday Morning

Interviews With Mark Perry, Marc Ginsberg

Aired May 26, 2002 - 08:31   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: More now on the crisis in the Middle East. Israeli forces have carried out raids in the West Bank over the past few days. They say it's part of an effort to root out terrorists.

Meanwhile, the U.S. is moving forward with peace efforts.

Joining us now to talk about the ongoing crisis, Marc Ginsberg, the former U.S. ambassador to Morocco and author Mark Perry who wrote "A Fire in Zion." They're both with us in our Washington bureau this morning. Good morning, guys.

MARC GINSBERG, FORMER AMBASSADOR TO MOROCCO: Good morning, Kyra.

MARK PERRY, AUTHOR OF "A FIRE IN ZION": Good morning.

PHILLIPS: Mark Perry, the last time we talked you were in the Middle East. Why don't we -- give us a little briefing on your trip? What do you think is the most important thing you brought back with you?

PERRY: I think that there's a real sense on the ground among the Palestinian people that tactics have to change -- that the militancy that we've seen over the last eight to 12 weeks isn't working and there is a debate going on now among militant groups about what kind of strategies they should follow.

And I think the moderates in Palestinian society have started to speak up and the militancy has been dampened -- not ended but dampened. And that's a very good sign.

Obviously the situation was very tense and it continues to be tense and continues to deepen. We're in a lull now unfortunately. We'll have to see how this debate among Palestinian militants turns out.

PHILLIPS: All right -- I want to talk about that lull in just a minute. But, Marc Ginsberg, why hasn't Israel retaliated to the last three bombings with a mass military operation like we saw a month ago?

GINSBERG: Well, I would rarely but respectfully disagree with Mark on this. I don't believe that the military organizations have decided that it's in their best interest to reduce the level of violence. There have been at least four suicide attacks in Israel within recent weeks since the end of the major military incursion.

And, secondly, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Al-Aqsa Brigades have continued to insist that no matter whether or not the Israelis are in or out of the territories they're going to continue these attacks.

The Israeli government has not responded in Gaza with full military force because I think that, frankly, there is no real easy way to solve the problem of Hamas and Islamic Jihad inside Gaza.

As I've said in previous shows, that is a sardine can of suicide bombers and extremely difficult to maneuver in.

But at the same time, Kyra, the Israelis have reduced their grand scale incursions and engaged in surgical strikes as late as over the last 24 hours in Bethlehem. And also they just withdrew from Tulkarem where they also attacked Palestinian targets.

PHILLIPS: All right the lull -- there's definitely lull going right now. I know you both agree this is the time for the U.S. to step up to the plate. Mark Perry, what do they need to do -- U.S. government right now?

PERRY: I think that they need to accelerate this peace process. Clearly they have laid out somewhat of a plan for an international conference either mid summer or later on in the summer and they need to reassure the parties -- especially the Palestinians -- that this peace process is going to go forward.

It's very unfortunate -- we've seen this before -- when there seems to be a lull in the violence between Israelis and Palestinians there's a lull in the peace process as if a lack of militancy or bombings means that we don't have to do anything.

Now is the time for the United States to step up, now is the time for the United States to continue to pressure both Palestinians and Israelis to attend this peace conference and lay out an agenda for the peace conference that will accelerate the peace process and lead to a final settlement.

PHILLIPS: Marc Ginsberg?

GINSBERG: Kyra?

PHILLIPS: Yes -- go ahead.

GINSBERG: I just want to -- sorry to interrupt you. But one of the reasons why I think there's a lull is because there is a certain amount of paralysis within the Bush administration over what to do with Chairman Arafat.

There are those in the administration who argue that Arafat should be relegated to the sidelines, that he has proven to be an untrustworthy peace partner. And there are those within the State Department who argue that it would be impossible to move the peace process so to speak forward and to convince the Israeli government to do the same if Mr. Arafat became the subject of a so-called diplomatic coup d'etat.

PHILLIPS: Do you think Arafat will give away any power, though?

GINSBERG: I think it's more of a photo op opportunity for Mr. Arafat to do so. He will not really be prepared to do so.

Case in point -- he announced just two weeks ago that he was prepared to hold Palestinian elections and within a few days of doing so announced that he was going to withdraw holding elections because he was not going to do so while Israel continued these military incursions.

So in effect each party remains hostage to the other party's political agenda.

PHILLIPS: Mark Perry, I have a feeling you disagree -- you think Arafat's going to give a little?

PERRY: Well, it's difficult to have elections -- in all due respect to my colleagues it's a little difficult to have elections when there are tanks in your street. And Arafat knows this, the Palestinian people know this. They don't want to have elections unless there is some kind of at least hope for a solution.

I believe that Arafat would gladly give up most of his power if there was some kind of light at the end of the tunnel. He'd become titular president and there would be a prime minister -- a government like we have in Israel or Great Britain.

He would do that and he would plan to do that if it would benefit the Palestinian cause, if he had some hope and the Palestinian people had some hope that at the end of this process there is a final settlement based on U.N. resolutions and the Palestinians could get their self-determination.

PHILLIPS: And, Marc Ginsberg, you're saying not really any light at the end of the tunnel right now. You're concerned about this dangerous period -- this linkage of al Qaeda and Hezbollah and Hamas.

GINSBERG: Well, exactly, Kyra. Just a few weeks ago there have been reports -- now corroborated -- that for the first time those terrorist organizations that are operating both within Gaza and the West Bank as well as in Syria and in Lebanon held a Predator's Ball affair in Beirut where actually -- or in the Bekaa Valley, which is controlled by Syria -- where for the first time not only did these organizations gather but they were hosted by al Qaeda.

And so now we're beginning to see the -- a very dangerous development in the Middle East, which is what these organizations have been euphemistically called as resistant movements have now linked up with a global terrorist organization under the sponsorship or at least the condoning of both the Lebanese and the Syrian government.

I'm not sure what this Predator's Ball was meant to accomplish, but it is clear that al Qaeda is trying to use Hamas, Islamic Jihad and these other organizations as a way of further escalating violence against America as well as Israel and I'm sure that this portends dangerous developments for us in the region.

I think this should be a reason for us to come -- to force the Syrians and the Lebanese to finally come clean on what it is that they are permitting in their own territory against the United States.

PHILLIPS: Marc Ginsberg, Mark Perry -- always a pleasure, gentlemen -- thank you.

GINSBERG: Sure, Kyra.

PERRY: Thank you.

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