Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Sunday Morning

Interview With Jack Burkman, Jayne Weintraub

Aired July 14, 2002 - 08:22   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Let's get some legal insight on the Inglewood incident, Allen Iverson and other matters. For that, we're joined by two counselors, Jack Burkman in Washington, Jayne Weintraub in Miami. Good to have you both with us.

JACK BURKMAN, ATTORNEY: Miles, good morning.

O'BRIEN: All right, let's talk about Inglewood for just a moment. What Ira Riner was just saying seems to make a lot of sense. Right, Jayne?

JAYNE WEINTRAUB, ATTORNEY: Well, not only does it make a lot of sense, I mean, I think it was very understated. The bottom line is, it's not that it's unprofessional, the conduct of the police officers that we've seen, it was illegal. It was not better than what someone that they're arresting does. Beating people up is a crime, and police officers have to be held accountable.

BURKMAN: Well, sure...

WEINTRAUB: It's not a matter of whether it's understandable or not.

BURKMAN: Sure it is ...

O'BRIEN: Now, Jack, it's just amazing that so many years after Rodney King, that this tape would be produced in Southern California, of all places.

BURKMAN: Well, Miles, you see, I don't really like that analogy, and a lot of people have been using it. The Rodney King case was completely different. You had four police who almost committed attempted murder. This is something very different -- you had -- the amount of force used was very mild. Police are not automatons.

O'BRIEN: Well, wait a minute, wait a minute -- the amount of force is ...

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: Jack, hang on -- somebody's slamming your face into the hood of a car, the trunk of a car -- would you call that mild?

WEINTRAUB: It's a shame (ph) -- do you what the underlying offenders are?

(CROSSTALK)

BURKMAN: I did not find the amount of force used to be excessive at all. And I will tell you, you have to remember, the police cannot perfectly calibrate the amount of force. I thought Ira's statements -- I thought he was dead wrong.

Part of what a police officer has to do, particularly in a rough neighborhood, in a tough situation, is to establish command ...

O'BRIEN: Yes, but once ...

BURKMAN: ... establish a presence at the situation.

O'BRIEN: All right, but once a suspect has those bracelets on, as they call them, all bets are off, right?

BURKMAN: Miles, you can't -- again, you cannot -- there's only so far you can take a police officer. If you look closely at the tape, there's good evidence that that police officer had a not insubstantial gash on the side of his head. Word has it that a second tape will be released to show that that police officer took a pretty sound blow from the suspect.

WEINTRAUB: Before he was handcuffed.

BURKMAN: Miles, you have a whole cottage industry of people out there who are waiting to use incidents like this to call them, quote/unquote, "racial," to divide the nation. There's a whole cottage industry of people who are ready to go on television -- the Al Sharptons, the Jesse Jacksons -- they wait for these incidents, and they use them at the right moment, again, to divide the country.

O'BRIEN: All right. Jayne.

WEINTRAUB: And so, we should unite the country and say the police were justified? Do you know what this kid was charged with? The underlying offense was some driving with a suspended license.

BURKMAN: But he struck a police officer.

WEINTRAUB: ... nothing that child did was worth having his head bashed against that wall.

BURKMAN: Oh, Jayne ...

WEINTRAUB: This is not a matter of race; this is a matter of restraint.

BURKMAN: That kid, that -- the cop in my opinion -- that -- anybody -- so what if that kids suffered two seconds -- two extra seconds of indignation because he took one extra...

(CROSSTALK)

WEINTRAUB: ... his head was bashed against the wall.

O'BRIEN: Jayne -- you first, and I think I know what you're going to say, but would this have happened in a white neighborhood, with a white 16-year-old person?

WEINTRAUB: I think race has nothing to do with this.

O'BRIEN: You do, OK. What do you think, Jack?

BURKMAN: I agree, for once we have some agreement there -- I don't think -- I don't think race has anything to do with it. I will tell you though, Miles, let's take a look at this from the other side. What if the cop, instead of using, you know, one iota too much force had used one iota too little force? And you have a situation that, you know, it's a rough neighborhood. Say you had a situation that broke -- that breaks out of control. Then the police might have to use guns or clubs to restrain people. This way the cop establishes command ...

WEINTRAUB: Yes, they just used their fists against a kid's face.

O'BRIEN: All right, but I got to ask you, Jack, if the guy is in bracelets, you know, in the actual handcuffs, what sort of a threat is he really? And isn't that, isn't that just sort of, you know, vengeance if you will, or whatever -- I mean, he's restrained.

BURKMAN: It is difficult to gauge threats.

WEINTRAUB: The vengeance was further exacerbated, Miles, by the fact that they arrested the guy who took the videotape.

BURKMAN: It is difficult to gauge threat by looking at just this one snapshot. I think, Miles, a lot of those questions will be answered when the second video comes out this week, and you get a sense of the overall situation that the officer's faced.

But again, it is what a lot of our friends on the left are saying is, we're going to criticize the police if they do not perfectly calibrate the amount of force that they use. You cannot have, and you cannot expect perfection from the police. What people are saying, what Ira was saying in the set-up piece from Connie Chung, is that, well, if the police do not behave perfectly, we're going to fault them. But perfection cannot be the standard.

O'BRIEN: Well, Jayne, how high a standard should it be for police officers, given the fact they have right to deprive us of our civil rights?

WEINTRAUB: I think that police officers should be held to the same standard as everyone else. They are not above the law; they're there to enforce the law, and they're held to be able to restrain their emotions -- that's why they're police officers.

I'm not saying all police officers are bad. God knows, 9/11 -- everything else that comes to my mind -- when we need help, we call the police. There are few bad police. This is a perfect example of a training tape of what should never, ever happen. This is not ...

BURKMAN: ... given what that ...

WEINTRAUB: ... a racial issue.

BURKMAN: I disagree. Given ...

WEINTRAUB: This is a restraint issue.

BURKMAN: Give the gash on that cop's head and given the way he was hit, I think he was restraining himself ...

(CROSSTALK)

WEINTRAUB: .. and he needs to face a court of law, not a court of angry cops who are taking free punches to get theirs in. And by the way, on the initial reports, do you think that they put that?

O'BRIEN: All right, let's quickly change gears here, because I'm sure we could go on, and I'm sure we would, but let's talk about Allen Iverson for moment. How much trouble is he in?

BURKMAN: I think a lot. I mean, false imprisonment, Miles -- a lot of people really don't follow what they say, it doesn't sound like that serious a charge when you first hear about it, but a lot of the studies and statistics show that there's an awful lot of trauma for victims that go along with it.

You know that the prosecutors, and I think they're doing a good job here, you now that they're concerned because they are -- they are heaping on a lot of other charges. They're -- I think they have a gun charge against him, they have a conspiracy charge against him, they have something else against him. That's an indication that the prosecutor wants to make sure, in case one of the counts fail, they get him on something, and I think that's a good move.

O'BRIEN: Jayne, are they out to get Allen Iverson?

WEINTRAUB: Well, I think, I think what was just said by Jack is pretty interesting. That's called the spaghetti challenge, and that is -- you throw the spaghetti up against the wall, and you hope that one of the piece stick. That's a prosecutorial tool of over-reaching, in my opinion.

Do I think Iverson's in a lot of trouble? Of course I do. Do I think it's insurmountable? No. I mean, isn't the bottom line that they're investigating after they arrest the superstar? Is there a double standard for celebrities? I think there is.

BURKMAN: Well, I'll tell you ...

WEINTRAUB: It does not go in Iverson's favor. For example, after he is arrested, then they have a search warrant applied for to look for the gun. There is no corroboration that there was a gun at all. The only people that say that there's a gun is the person that wants you to think he's the victim. O'BRIEN: And no gun has been produced yet, correct?

BURKMAN: We may have some common agreement on one area.

WEINTRAUB: Correct, no gun has been produced.

BURKMAN: One thing, one thing, Miles, that really troubled me about this case, and troubles me about cases like them, is this business of celebrity justice and the way celebrities are treated. And you can contrast it a little bit with the Inglewood situation. I mean, Iverson -- I think the police should get a warrant and go out and pick him up the way they'd pick up any other suspect, but this business of calling his lawyer, giving him special treatment, asking him to surrender. I'm troubled by that, and I -- it's happens all the time in ...

WEINTRAUB: Jack, that happens all the time.

BURKMAN: ... celebrity cases. But it's inappropriate, I don't -- I don't -- I troubles me every time it happens, because it ...

WEINTRAUB: This isn't a murder case; it's a misdemeanor and one felony. This is a very simple nothing case in the courts of the criminal justice system. We who handle serious criminal cases, including murder cases, then I could see your point, maybe you don't want him to surrender.

BURKMAN: But you see, false imprisonment...

WEINTRAUB: This is a simple matter and it's not going anywhere.

BURKMAN: You're going down the road that a lot of people go down...

(CROSSTALK)

WEINTRAUB: It's a courtesy to the lawyer, not the client.

BURKMAN: You don't think false imprisonment is a serious issue. I do. And I think it's a very serious crime. And again, a lot of the statistics show that victims suffer more trauma with crimes like that than battery and assault, in many cases.

WEINTRAUB: You know what? Do you know the credibility of these so-called victims? I don't know that I'd call the cousin who's shacking up with his wife a victim that is so not credible as to be believed. And as a matter of fact, there is nothing to corroborate what he said. And if you understand, his wife is back with him, very happy.

BURKMAN: Iverson is hardly a role model and has a track record.

O'BRIEN: We are deep into a tawdry tale now. Let's leave it at that. Jack Burkman, Jayne Weintraub, we appreciate you both shedding some light, we hope, on legal matters of the day, and we hope to see you again soon here on CNN. BURKMAN: Thanks, Miles.

WEINTRAUB: Have a good morning, Miles.

O'BRIEN: All right. You, too.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com