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CNN Sunday Morning

Reporters Notebook

Aired August 04, 2002 - 10:12   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY SMITH, CNN ANCHOR: All morning, we've been talking about the latest violence in the Middle East.

CATHERINE CALLAWAY, CNN ANCHOR: Now we're taking some of your questions about the Mid East crisis.

SMITH: Joining us now from Jerusalem, CNN's John Vause, and in Ramallah, CNN's Michael Holmes.

Hello, and welcome to the both of you.

CALLAWAY: Yes.

John, I know this has been a particularly busy morning for you.

JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thank you.

CALLAWAY: I know we had the shooting there, with the border police, this morning. It's been another act of violence -- two acts of violence this morning.

A lot of people have respond to the violence and have been sending us e-mail all morning. We're going to start with our first one, which is from Waheed (ph): "When will the Israeli and Palestinians leadership understand that retaliation breeds retaliation, and that it is the ordinary people on the street that suffer. When America was attack by the terrorists on September 11 I did not hear the Americans calling for retaliation, rather they were calling for justice."

Michael, let's start with you. I guess, you know, there is a fine line between justice and retaliation, big gray area there. Perhaps Israel and the Palestinians have different definitions of that?

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, I think that's right, Catherine. Certainly, I've spent a lot of time in the territories over the last few months, and in the past week, in Nablus and here in Ramallah and elsewhere. And Palestinians will tell you that they feel the West is not fair. That it's not a two-way street when it comes to punishments in that.

They certainly feel that things like demolishing the homes of relatives of suicide bombers or terrorists is unfair on families. Certainly 24-hour a day curfews -- like we see in Nablus, at the moment, and here in Ramallah, at least once a week the curfew is on at night, lifted during the day --.punish an entire people and really breed discontent against Israel. That they say is brought on by collective punishment.

Palestinians you talk to, I can tell you from experience, they don't all approve of suicide bombings. In fact, senior Palestinians will tell you they're counterproductive. They backfire because of the punishments that are imposed in the territories.

And so, you're right it's a two-edged sword, both sides see this very differently. But ordinary Palestinians wish it would all stop.

CALLAWAY: You know, John, it's no doubt that the man who fired the shots there this morning, the suicide bombing with the bus, apparent suicide bombing with the bus this morning, they both felt like it was more justice for their side, but will there be retaliation, right?

VAUSE: Well, I mean, if you look at it from the Israeli point of you, what (UNINTELLIGIBLE) has been saying about what the Israeli action has been.

HOLMES: Well, Hamas will say...

CALLAWAY: Go ahead, John.

HOLMES: Sorry.

VAUSE: Sorry.

[LAUGHTER]

VAUSE: What we were just saying about the retaliation, yes, sure. I mean it is very much a tit-for-tat . But if you look at it from the Israeli perspective, what they're saying is they do go into the territories, they do impose these curfews, so they're not trying to administer a collective punishment on these people. They're saying this is necessary to try -- as a means of self-defense.

Really, what you're seeing with the demolition of homes, and the deportation of people to the Gaza Strip, you're seeing an increasing desperation in the tactics here, from the Israeli point of view. They've got security forces in seven of the eight Palestinian towns. They've got curfews in place and it's sort of massive security operations. And just here in Jerusalem, there are police, there are checkpoints wherever you go. They're really running out of options from a military point of view.

Obviously, they are searching for a political solution to all this. But, in the meantime, what they're saying is they need to defend themselves. That's why they're building that fence along the 1967 border. That's why they're going to these lengths just to simply try and defend themselves. The Israelis will tell you, at great length, this is not punishment against the Palestinians, but what they're saying is really self-defense. CALLAWAY: Michael, I think you were trying to say something there. We interrupted you, if you want to go ahead and comment now.

HOLMES: I was going -- I agree, entirely. John and I have both spent times on both sides of the Green Line. And he's absolutely right. When Israelis do not view this as collective punishment, they see it as a form of defense against outright terrorism.

Hamas will say the sort of things we saw today is retaliation or revenge. Most Palestinians don't even see it that way. They see these things as counterproductive.

And John's right, that Israel is looking for ways in which to stop these attacks. And nothing is working at the moment. Certainly, curfews and the tanks on streets that we see around the West Bank, that's not working.

And Palestinian leaders will tell you that they're not really in control of security at the moment, Israel is because of the curfews and restriction on them being able to carry out any kind of security in the territories.

SMITH: Let's move on to the next...

VAUSE: Catherine, if I could just...

SMITH: Go ahead, John. Go ahead.

VAUSE: I was just going to say, Michael, there was a very interesting survey, which came out regarding the suicide bombings. As these incursions and curfews, and all the actions by the Israeli military continue, the support for the suicide bombings do, in fact, increase. There was an Israeli company took out a survey, saying like 68 percent of the Palestinians -- in some way, support the suicide bombers.

So, what comes first? It's the chicken and the egg argument.

CALLAWAY: Yes.

SMITH: He has a good point. Our next e-mail comes from Felix. Felix wants to know, "How can anyone think the people responsible for the terrorist attacks in Israel will stop if there is a state of Palestine?"

There's been discussed a two-state solution. The question is, I guess, though, is it workable?

John, do you want to start with this one?

VAUSE: Yeah, I think you've got to look at the past history. There was a period of relative calm here, especially after the signing of the Oslo Treaty. And there was some hope, especially, on the Palestinian side, that they would in fact have a state. The terrorist attacks certainly didn't stop altogether. But nothing compared to what we're seeing in the last two years. And the Palestinians make the point, quite rightly, in effect, that look, if there is a state. If we have our own government, if we have our own determination; we have our land; we can live in peace. If those terrorist groups still continue with the attacks, still continue with the suicide bombings there would be such an outcry, such a international condemnation of those groups it wouldn't last long.

And if there was support for the Palestinian government, as a nation state, to take on these suicide bombers and these terrorist groups, that it would actually have the support from the Palestinian people -- the wholehearted support of the Palestinian people -- to stop these terrorist attacks.

But you're not going to ever get that support while you have close to a million people under curfew, while the Israelis are demolishing homes. So, this is what the Palestinian point of view is saying. So, if they had a state, then maybe, they could work together on this.

CALLAWAY: Michael, I see you shaking your head on this. I'm assuming you agree with that report?

HOLMES: Yeah, I think John's right. I think that one of the things that we've seen in the last few weeks is reports, very difficult to confirm, of even militant groups, terrorist groups, right up to Hamas, saying if Israel withdraws to the pre-`67 borders, we will stop our attacks.

Now, Israel, quite fairly, doesn't really take that seriously because they've seen promises made before, cease-fires broken before. What -- I still think on both sides of the Green Line there is a lot of hope that perhaps two states could exist together. Whether they can, really can't be seen until they do exist.

At the moment, Palestinian leaders will tell you that, certainly, from the more militant Palestinians there's no motivation at the moment to stop their attacks because they feel that they're not getting anywhere by being peaceful about it. And they feel once there is a withdrawal they can perhaps start talking peace.

Palestinian leaders, I can tell you, are very keen to move this to a political track and to get the Mitchell Plan, get General Anthony Zinni's ideas, and put them actually into practice. And to get something to actually happen here, other than punch and counterpunch, that we see every single day here.

It's a very sad situation that's going on at the moment, on both sides. Like John, I mean, just income Jerusalem can be a very unnerving thing. And being in Nablus can be equally unnerving.

CALLAWAY: I'm sure that's an understatement on your part, from your vantage point there. And you mentioned the US involvement here. We want to get to our last e-mail. We've run out of time gentlemen, but I'll see if you have time to answer this for us rather quickly.

"I don't understand why all of the countries are putting pressure on the U.S. to bring peace to the Middle East, plus they want our money to help." This is from Jerry in Montana.

Certainly, John, there are -- you know, there's a lot of pressure on the U.S. to get involved here. I guess, perhaps the gentleman is asking us, what does the U.S. have to gain?

VAUSE: Well, the U.S. is the last remaining superpower in the world. And with that comes certain responsibilities, if you want to trump (ph) the globe, and do the walk and talk the talk, well, you've got to back it up.

And look, at the end of the day, if this region is not peaceful, no one's going to have peace anywhere. That's what you'll hear from a lot of people. We hear it every day, if the United States wants to take on Saddam Hussein, all the Arab states are saying, hey, no support until you work out the Palestinian/Israel issue.

So the other thing, too, is that United States has got a lot invested here. It gives Israel $4 billion a year in military aid. You know, it supplies the weapons for this part of the world. It needs to step in. It's backed Israel to the hilt so now it needs to take responsibility for its actions.

CALLAWAY: And, Michael, we are running out of time, want to give you the last word. Michael?

HOLMES: Still, though, we see a lot of Europeans getting involved in the process. But, John's right. The U.S. is the main broker, both on a world stage, and also historically, Israel's best friend, and someone who can talk to both sides. The Palestinians are happy to talk to the U.S. if the U.S. will talk to them. And Israel, of course, happy to have them in the middle as well. But what we need to see, and leaders on both sides will say this is some sort of actual action from the U.S. to get involved in a very concrete way.

CALLAWAY: You know, I hate that we don't have more time. You gentlemen risk your lives to bring these stories to us. And you do an incredible job and we want to thank you for being with us this morning to share your thoughts. CNN's John Vause and Michael Holmes in Ramallah. John is in Jerusalem. Thank you both for being with us.

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