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CNN Sunday Morning
Interview With Chester Gillis
Aired August 18, 2002 - 08:08 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: It's quite a sentimental journey, for the pope, Pope John Paul II saying mass for two and a quarter million of his fellow countrymen on his home soil, continuing a trip that is getting a lot of scrutiny for what he is saying and also because of his health. His frail health, it is leading to speculation this might be his last trip to Poland as pope.
Chester Gillis of Georgetown University, joining us from Washington, and he is the associate professor of theology and Catholic studies at Georgetown -- good to have you with us, professor.
CHESTER GILLIS, PROFESSOR, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: Nice to be here, Miles, good morning.
O'BRIEN: Good morning to you. All this focus on the pope's health perhaps overlooks some of his message. What is he trying to tell Poles right now? It's a very personal journey, isn't it?
GILLIS: Oh, it's very much an nostalgic journey for him, but ironically it's not the Poland that he left when he became pope, when he was hero for overcoming communism and all. I think he's a bit disenchanted with Poland's turn toward more consumerism, and a nation that emulates the west in ways that he had hoped it would not.
O'BRIEN: What hath he wrought, though, 1979, a lot of people would say he was very instrumental in deflating the communist regime there.
GILLIS: Oh, indeed, and he's a hero. He's a hero in Poland forever, I'm sure, there's no doubt about that, and I think he can bring a moral voice to Poland again. Although, not everyone will heed his message, although they certainly revere his person.
O'BRIEN: Yes, are they listening to him this time? I suspect in 1979, it was an entirely different audience, entirely different set of circumstances, the word -- every word hung on. In this case, are they preoccupied with the consumerism he deplores?
GILLIS: I think, in many ways, they are, although they still revere him, as I said, and they still see him as a sign of Polish authority in the world, and visionary for the world, whom they want to hang on to. When he's gone, they may not have the kind of international voice that they have through him.
So, he's very important in Polish history. O'BRIEN: I've read a lot of debate over the pope's role in, not just bringing down communism in Poland, but the entire Eastern bloc. Would you subscribe to the school that would say it was -- the pope was instrumental in defeating communism in general, or was it more focused on Poland?
GILLIS: I would subscribe more to the more general. I think certainly it was Poland, since he was a very active, in a sense, politically there, but also I think that his moral leadership extended beyond Poland, and then he gave us a certain sense of courage to others, who wanted to try to overcome Poland (sic).
So, I think his influence is broader than Poland.
O'BRIEN: Let's a -- probably at this stage of his career, if career is the proper term for the papacy, it's time to think about legacy. How will this pope be remembered most? Will it be for that, what we talked about, late '70s, early '80s, the fall of communism, and the fact the he injected himself in that?
GILLIS: Well, I think he's a very complex figure. That will only be part of his legacy. Also the fact that he's had such a lengthy papacy. He's put a certain stamp on the church for a long time.
He's been a very strong advocate for social justice and human rights around the world, and that would be part of his legacy. But on the other side, part of his legacy might -- some might say that he did not give women the opportunities that they deserve within the church, for example, and to be centralized authority in ways that have not been done in Vatican II, and some will think that that's part of legacy as well.
It will be a complex legacy and it will be mixed, I think.
O'BRIEN: Yes, very conservative pope, after all is said and done, and of course, popes have a way of perpetuating their own views, because they stack the College of Cardinals, who, after all, elect their successor, with like-minded individuals.
As we look toward the next pontiff, whenever that occasion might be, whether it's retirement or whatever, are we apt to see more of the same?
GILLIS: Well, there's a good possibility of that, as you suggest that -- the pope has appointed virtually all of the cardinals who will be voting for -- among themselves for the next pope.
However, it's also true that when a pope dies, certain ties are unleashed, and there's a freedom to go in a different direction, perhaps, and one never knows, and also, if one believes in the Holy Spirit within the church, there can be great surprises at a conclave.
So, it's hard to project exactly what will happen, and I think if one were to speculate, one might end up being wrong. O'BRIEN: The pope has traveled, what was it, I can't remember the number of number of trips, it's staggering. I don't have it right in front of me, but by far the most traveled pope.
The value of these trips, is it public relations? Does it spread the faith? Is it about making the papacy a more political entity in the world?
GILLIS: Well, I think it's about making the church a world church. For a long time the church has been very Euro-centric, both in its membership in the hierarchy, and also in its kind of vision of the world. And I think this pope, some of predecessors as well, but particularly John Paul II has brought the papacy to the world, and he has made the papacy much more visible everywhere, and he's been willing to go where the people are, and I think he understands better other cultures for that reason.
O'BRIEN: Chester Gillis is a professor of theology and Catholic studies at Georgetown University -- good to have you with us, professor.
GILLIS: My pleasure, Miles, have a good day -- thank you.
O'BRIEN: You too.
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