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CNN Sunday Morning

Legal Roundtable

Aired September 08, 2002 - 08:24   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CATHERINE CALLAWAY, CNN ANCHOR: From $1 trillion lawsuit over the 9/11 attacks, also a double murder trial in Florida that's causing all kinds of controversy, and a tiara tiff at the Miss America Pageant, of course, that means it's time for our legal roundtable.
And with us from Philadelphia today, Michael Smerconish, a trial attorney, who's talk show host too.

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Good morning.

CALLAWAY: Good morning to you. Also, from New York this morning, we have Pamela Hayes, She's a criminal defense attorney. It's so great to have you back with us today.

PAMELA HAYES, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Good to be here.

CALLAWAY: Wow, what a week. It has just been an incredible story for legal -- incredible week, rather, for legal stories, and we've been talking about it in the news room. One of the more interesting ones is this $1 trillion lawsuit that's been filed. Apparently, a civil lawsuit was filed against Iraq, alleging that Iraq knew in advance of Osama bin Laden's plans to attack -- of the attacks in Washington and New York, and that Iraq conspired to carry them out.

What kind of chance, you know, what kind of chance of success is -- does this have, Michael?

SMERCONISH: Well, I like the fact that the lawsuit's been filed, because, Catherine, I wonder whether we've been told everything by the government -- our own government -- about the Iraqi connection. And I think that civil litigation provides us with another avenue to get to the bottom of it.

You know, there's a journalist out in Oklahoma City by the name of Jayna Davis (ph), who for a long time has been assembling a circumstantial case that suggests an Iraqi connection to the bombing of the federal building out in Oklahoma City, as well as the World Trade Center attacks, and the "Wall Street Journal" gave 5,000 words to that this week. So, I want to get to the bottom of it. I want to know, and I'm not some conspiracy nut, but I think there's enough out there that needs to be investigated.

CALLAWAY: I don't know, Michael, this is the second week in a row I've been hearing conspiracy theories from you over there -- a lot of questions to be raised about that, but dealing with the facts here. Pam, it looks like the $1 trillion price tag on this lawsuits almost is getting more attention than the fact that the lawsuit was filed against Iraq.

HAYES: It's a joke -- it's really a joke. You cannot file a lawsuit against someone unless they have an obligation. What is the basis? You know, just because somebody knew about it doesn't mean they have an obligation to tell us.

CALLAWAY: Well, we should tell everyone first, before you go on, that this was based apparently on an article in an Iraqi newspaper.

HAYES: But what does that mean? There are all sorts of newspapers -- as in America, and we don't necessarily believe what they say. I mean, you have to have a legitimate basis for going in. You can't just tie up a Federal District Court with nonsense because you believe that it's some type of theory languishing around.

This is the type of thing that gets lawyers in trouble.

SMERCONISH: Hey, Pamela.

HAYES: Gives them a bad name, Michael.

SMERCONISH: I -- Pam -- I disagree...

HAYES: They'd do anything -- anything to get attention, anything to get money.

SMERCONISH: No, no.

HAYES: The government is not suing them. I don't believe that there's going to be any basis -- these people are going to be sanctioned under rule 11 for brining a frivolous lawsuit.

SMERCONISH: But, wait a minute, this is not the same as you or I sitting back and looking at the "National Enquirer," just to pick out one newspaper, or so-called newspaper, and saying, "Ah, look at this, I'll file a lawsuit."

Over in Iraq, nothing gets printed without the approval of Saddam Hussein's regime, and here was ...

HAYES: What is the obligation?

SMERCONISH: Wait a minute. Here was a clear warning seven weeks in advance of 9/11 that said the Pentagon was going to get bombed.

HAYES: Michael...

(CROSSTALK)

HAYES: ... obligation to report it to the United States; you have to have a basis for suing. They don't have a basis, and that's why it's frivolous.

SMERCONISH: I don't think it's frivolous at all. I think we don't know enough to know whether it's frivolous, and I want to see some subpoenas get slapped on people... HAYES: Right.

SMERCONISH: ... and let them testify under oath.

HAYES: (UNINTELLIGIBLE). March right over to the capital of Iraq and slap those subpoenas.

CALLAWAY: I just want to know quickly, because we're going to move onto another topic, how far you think this case is going to go? Certainly it would set a precedent -- Michael.

SMERCONISH: It depends on how much they uncover. You know, there's been a lot of civil litigation surrounding these terrorist attacks, and I maintain it's a good thing, because only more answers can now come from it.

CALLAWAY: And Pamela, you've already said you think it's just going to be thrown out.

HAYES: First of all, you've got to get jurisdiction, and I think they're going to have a tad bit of a problem.

CALLAWAY: OK -- all right, let's move on to the other story, one of the other big stories of the week, and that of course, is coming out of Florida. You've been watching it this week unfolding live on television, two young boys convicted of killing their father, and this comes right as they announce that a "not guilty" verdict was reached in the Ricky Chavis trial. He of course, is the friend of these young boys.

You know, we talked a little bit about this earlier last week, about how complicated this was to actually have two prosecutions -- the prosecuting going after two people in this case, in that -- actually be three, with the two teenage boys, and then this -- and Ricky Chavis situation.

What was your reaction, Michael, when we started hearing from people in the jury that they gave the lesser conviction for the boys, because they assumed that Chavis was going to be convicted?

SMERCONISH: I don't -- I don't like it at all, and I'll tell you, if it were any other state in the country, I would say it definitely gets overturned on an appeal, but Florida, as we'll all remember from the 2000 election, has a goofy Supreme Court, so you never know what they're going to do.

But what the prosecutors did here, Catherine, they went into two different trials, back to back, and told the juries two totally different things about the same murder. A prosecutor should have to believe in that which he is telling the jury, and the prosecutor was misleading one of those two juries.

This is a horrible outcome.

CALLAWAY: Well, you know, what's different -- I mean, you said that last week -- but what's different now is that apparently we are hearing from these jury members that are saying, hey, we gave them second degree because we thought that Chavis was going to be convicted.

SMERCONISH: But wait a minute, wait a minute, the boys confessed to using a baseball bat, and when the jury convicted of second degree, they were accepting part of the confession but not the part that they used the bat.

It's so inconsistent, it's got to get thrown out.

CALLAWAY: Right. What do you think, Pamela?

HAYES: It's a jury compromise. The problem I have is the prosecutor skirted very close to prosecutorial misconduct. This was one trial. It should have been two juries at the same trial. I've practiced when I've been a prosecutor, and we have had two juries listening to the same set of facts with this bit of conflict, you send the other jury out.

In this instance, this prosecutor told them two different stories. He didn't believe in one of his cases, and you've got to be able to go to a jury, look them square in the eye and say, I want a verdict of guilty because we have proved beyond a reasonable doubt. They did not have that in the case with the gentleman who's also accused of abusing this child. If the guy is a child molester, we need to prosecute him for that. You just cannot play games and say, hey, I've got to get a conviction, and I don't care where I get it from.

CALLAWAY: You know it's messed up when you two agree on something.

So let's go to the Miss North Carolina. We are running out of time and I do want to get your reaction to this. This is an interesting situation here. A judge rules that the original Miss North Carolina should get her crown back, despite the fact that she lost it because of rumors -- or she actually resigned amid rumors of topless photographs of her. So now we have two Miss North Carolinas in this contest. What's going to happen when -- what's the next step in this case? It's still up in the air.

SMERCONISH: Hey, I can tell you this, I don't know which one of them ultimately is the winner of the Miss North Carolina title, but I know who the loser is. The loser is the boyfriend who took the picture, and then years later drops the dime on number one. And guess what he does for a living now? He's a cop. Can you imagine!

CALLAWAY: He's bitter.

HAYES: You know, the losers here are the public. You know, we have to be bored with this entire charade. We have to participate in some type of extortion brought by the boyfriend to out his former girlfriend. And I think that's an outrage. You know, they need to make a decision. It's only one person's crown, and let's get on with it. SMERCONISH: Hey, we're not bored. Wait a minute. We're not bored. Nobody's bored by this. This is the next best thing to "American Idol." Are you kidding me?

HAYES: I don't think so. I'm very bored.

SMERCONISH: I don't believe this. I can't believe it. Bring it on.

CALLAWAY: The one thing we know is that doesn't it reduce the chances of either one of them winning?

SMERCONISH: Definitely. Neither of them could ever be Miss America in the aftermath of this.

CALLAWAY: All right. Well, they are getting a lot of attention, that we know. Michael Smerconish and Pamela Hayes, thank you both for being with us today. Good to talk to you.

HAYES: Bye.

CALLAWAY: Bye-bye.

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