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CNN Sunday Morning
Interviews With Daniel Avalon, Hasan Abdel Rahman
Aired September 22, 2002 - 08:13 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Continuing our discussion of the Israeli -- Palestinian conflict, which is focused right now on Yasser Arafat's four city block compound in Ramallah. Inside that compound is Yasser Arafat.
What is the goal of the Israeli operation as it continues? Is it to get some wanted criminals from outside of that compound or is it, in fact, the exile of Yasser Arafat?
We're going to discuss this from both sides of the issue. Joining us first from New York is Daniel Avalon, foreign policy -- excuse me -- he is the U.S. ambassador -- Israeli ambassador to the U.S.
I think I have that correct. Ambassador, good to have you with us.
DANIEL AVALON, ISRAEL'S AMBASSADOR TO U.S.: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.
O'BRIEN: It's our pleasure as well. What is the goal, Ambassador? Is the goal to prompt Yasser Arafat into an exile?
AVALON: No, Miles. At least if it had been the goal could have been achieved really in one hour. Military operations could be conducted and the situation is that we could have done it long ago. But this is not the goal.
Our goal is really to stop the terror -- to stop the killing of innocent Israelis so the country can resume normal lives like any other country -- so mothers can send their kids on buses to school without being afraid that the schools and discotheques and restaurants will be killed by this brutal Palestinian terror.
So all our aim is to get the criminals which are in Arafat's offices. He gives them shelter -- he protects them. All we need is their removal from there and then the operation is over.
O'BRIEN: Let me ask you this though. If, in fact, and I believe the number is now some 50 people that you believe are inside that compound who are wanted -- if, in fact, they were turned over, would this be the end of the siege of the Ramallah compound?
AVALON: By all means -- that's what we say -- it's in their hands. If they just come out and then given due procedures with the law -- and we do have a very just court -- this will be over. There are terrorists there who direct, finance and conduct terrorist operations. The latest was three days ago when six Israelis were blown up in a bus downtown Tel Aviv.
O'BRIEN: I understand your goal and I understand your frustrations given the state of suicide bombings that we've witnessed unfortunately. But the intended effect might actually differ from what really happens, which is this actually galvanizes support behind Yasser Arafat.
There's got to be concern in Israel that every time the siege is ratcheted upward more and more people rally to Yasser Arafat's cause inside.
AVALON: Well, Miles, I'm not sure this is the case. It is true that he is trying to galvanize support by conducting terror but I think that his status is further compromised. And I don't believe that in the long term the case will be such that he's back in the picture.
I think that most people understand around the world that he has betrayed the Palestinian cause and dreams and he is the one who worst serves their national interest.
He cannot be managing a whole apparatus of terror. He is really I would say directing a coalition of terror whereby Hamas and Tanzim. He's owned terror organizations of the Fatah, of Arafat's organization -- are collaborating together in an effort to frustrate peace efforts -- indeed to destroy any kind of hope for reconciliations.
But we are hopeful because we have in the past proven Israel wants peace. When we have real partners -- partners who are trustworthy, effective, serious and committed to peace, we make concessions.
This was the case with Egypt when they had leaders like Anwar Sadat. Jordan had King Hussein.
We hoped that the Palestinians would produce such a leader but so far they have not. And I have no doubt that ultimately there will be a leader committed to peace and then both people can have the peace they deserve.
O'BRIEN: Ambassador, one of the stated goals of Israel and the U.S. in all of this is to see some fundamental reform inside the Palestinian Authority. And it appears that that reform at least was budding somewhat prior to these two suicide attacks and the latest siege.
All of that is now on the back burner to say the least.
That has got to cause some concern when you look at the long range goals of trying to come up with some kind of way of a cohesive peace plan.
AVALON: Well, these are two different issues. First of all, I would really take an issue about the reforms. We have not seen anything really developing.
So long as Arafat keeps the reins of the finances financing the terror and the power over the security/terrorist organizations there are not really reforms to speak about.
But, irrespective of that, once we are attacked -- once there are terror actions in our streets -- we must defend ourselves.
This is what every other country -- any other country would do. And this is what we are doing. We're still calling for real reforms for new leadership to emerge. But first and foremost we need the end of terror. They have to stop the terrorists, they have to arrest them, they have to dismantle the terrorist infrastructures, dismantle the terrorist explosive laboratories and cashes -- just come forward and talk peace.
O'BRIEN: All right. Daniel Avalon is the Israeli ambassador to the U.S. We appreciate your comments on this.
AVALON: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: And let's turn it now to the other side. Neither of these gentlemen wanted to appear together at the same time so we're doing it back to back.
Hasan Abdel Rahman is the chief Palestinian representative to the U.S. He had the benefit of hearing Mr. Avalon.
And let's pick up on that point that he made, which seems to be a very valid and difficult point to counter, which is -- stop the terrorism -- nip the terrorism in the bud.
What's the matter with that call for action on the part of the Israelis?
HASAN ABDEL RAHMAN, CHIEF PALESTINIAN REPRESENTATIVE: I believe that what perpetrates violence is Israeli behavior towards the Palestinian people. Remember that Israel is occupying the Palestinian territories for 36 years now.
Israel is building settlements in the Palestinian territories ...
O'BRIEN: Well, Mr. Rahman, wait a minute. Are you justifying that -- the terrorism then? Is that what you are saying?
ABDEL RAHMAN: Sir, I'm trying to explain the environment in which violence erupts. When you have Israeli Army killing Palestinians -- in the last 45 days alone not one single Israeli was killed -- six weeks and a half.
There were 75 Palestinians assassinated by Israel -- 40 of them are children. Isn't this (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that behaves like (UNINTELLIGIBLE)? Or does Palestinian life not count like an Israeli life? We have to remember that in the City of Nablus alone for 46 days 250,000 people are under curfew constantly. Isn't this terrorism by Israel? We have to be very -- we believe that Israel has the right to live in security but Israel has no right under any law to occupy other people, torture them, humiliate them, deprive them of their dignity and freedom.
O'BRIEN: Mr. Rahman ...
ABDEL RAHMAN: I asked ...
O'BRIEN: ... why not release some of those wanted people that Israel demands and allow them to be subjected to a trial? What's the matter with that?
Sir, wouldn't that be an action -- a concrete action indicating defiance of terrorism within the Palestinian Authority?
ABDEL RAHMAN: Sir, first of all, those are officials of the Palestinian Authority. This whole thing about being terrorist is a distortion of the facts. We never heard from Israel until yesterday that they wanted any of those people.
This is a protector to humiliate Yasser Arafat in the eyes of his people by showing him handing his own officials to the Israeli Army.
This is unacceptable. This is a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) behavior by any law and by any standards.
This is not the way to deal with the leader of another people. That's why Yasser Arafat and his aides are not going to be surrendering to the Israelis.
Imagine the view of Yasser Arafat handing his deputies to the Israeli Army. Listen -- we believe that Sharon is a terrorist and we believe that every single Israeli who kills Palestinians is a terrorist.
Would Mr. Sharon hand his own people to us?
O'BRIEN: Is Yasser Arafat, Mr. Rahman, headed for exile?
ABDEL RAHMAN: No, he is not. Yasser Arafat is in his own land. The Israeli Army should leave us. The Israeli Army is an invading army. The Israeli Army has no right to be there. The Israeli Army belongs to Tel Aviv and not to Ramallah.
So when (UNINTELLIGIBLE) speaks of the right of Israelis to live in peace, we believe in that. But we have also the right to live in peace in our own country -- in our own state.
He has to take his settlers away. They brought 300,000 Jewish settlers into the Palestinian territories. We have 75 Jewish settlements built under Mr. Sharon alone in violation of international law, in violation of the United States' policy.
That's what we have to look at -- what provokes the Palestinians into becoming (UNINTELLIGIBLE) ... O'BRIEN: Mr. Rahman?
ABDEL RAHMAN: ... behavior?
O'BRIEN: Mr. Rahman?
ABDEL RAHMAN: Yes?
O'BRIEN: Is Yasser Arafat in control? And, if he is -- if the answer to that is yes -- why doesn't he stop the suicide bombings?
ABDEL RAHMAN: Well, first of all, he is not in control because he has been under house arrest for six continuous months. He could not leave his headquarters.
Look at what the Israelis are doing. They are depriving him of the means to be effective and then blaming him for not being effective. Isn't this absurd and ridiculous?
You have a man for six months under house arrest, you destroy all of his security agencies and then ask him why not. And Israel is having 50,000 Israeli soldiers in the Palestinian territories and they are asking Arafat to protect Tel Aviv. Isn't that ridiculous?
O'BRIEN: Hasan Abdel Rahman, that's all the time we have unfortunately. We apologize for cutting you off but we appreciate your insights and comments.
ABDEL RAHMAN: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired September 22, 2002 - 08:13 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Continuing our discussion of the Israeli -- Palestinian conflict, which is focused right now on Yasser Arafat's four city block compound in Ramallah. Inside that compound is Yasser Arafat.
What is the goal of the Israeli operation as it continues? Is it to get some wanted criminals from outside of that compound or is it, in fact, the exile of Yasser Arafat?
We're going to discuss this from both sides of the issue. Joining us first from New York is Daniel Avalon, foreign policy -- excuse me -- he is the U.S. ambassador -- Israeli ambassador to the U.S.
I think I have that correct. Ambassador, good to have you with us.
DANIEL AVALON, ISRAEL'S AMBASSADOR TO U.S.: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.
O'BRIEN: It's our pleasure as well. What is the goal, Ambassador? Is the goal to prompt Yasser Arafat into an exile?
AVALON: No, Miles. At least if it had been the goal could have been achieved really in one hour. Military operations could be conducted and the situation is that we could have done it long ago. But this is not the goal.
Our goal is really to stop the terror -- to stop the killing of innocent Israelis so the country can resume normal lives like any other country -- so mothers can send their kids on buses to school without being afraid that the schools and discotheques and restaurants will be killed by this brutal Palestinian terror.
So all our aim is to get the criminals which are in Arafat's offices. He gives them shelter -- he protects them. All we need is their removal from there and then the operation is over.
O'BRIEN: Let me ask you this though. If, in fact, and I believe the number is now some 50 people that you believe are inside that compound who are wanted -- if, in fact, they were turned over, would this be the end of the siege of the Ramallah compound?
AVALON: By all means -- that's what we say -- it's in their hands. If they just come out and then given due procedures with the law -- and we do have a very just court -- this will be over. There are terrorists there who direct, finance and conduct terrorist operations. The latest was three days ago when six Israelis were blown up in a bus downtown Tel Aviv.
O'BRIEN: I understand your goal and I understand your frustrations given the state of suicide bombings that we've witnessed unfortunately. But the intended effect might actually differ from what really happens, which is this actually galvanizes support behind Yasser Arafat.
There's got to be concern in Israel that every time the siege is ratcheted upward more and more people rally to Yasser Arafat's cause inside.
AVALON: Well, Miles, I'm not sure this is the case. It is true that he is trying to galvanize support by conducting terror but I think that his status is further compromised. And I don't believe that in the long term the case will be such that he's back in the picture.
I think that most people understand around the world that he has betrayed the Palestinian cause and dreams and he is the one who worst serves their national interest.
He cannot be managing a whole apparatus of terror. He is really I would say directing a coalition of terror whereby Hamas and Tanzim. He's owned terror organizations of the Fatah, of Arafat's organization -- are collaborating together in an effort to frustrate peace efforts -- indeed to destroy any kind of hope for reconciliations.
But we are hopeful because we have in the past proven Israel wants peace. When we have real partners -- partners who are trustworthy, effective, serious and committed to peace, we make concessions.
This was the case with Egypt when they had leaders like Anwar Sadat. Jordan had King Hussein.
We hoped that the Palestinians would produce such a leader but so far they have not. And I have no doubt that ultimately there will be a leader committed to peace and then both people can have the peace they deserve.
O'BRIEN: Ambassador, one of the stated goals of Israel and the U.S. in all of this is to see some fundamental reform inside the Palestinian Authority. And it appears that that reform at least was budding somewhat prior to these two suicide attacks and the latest siege.
All of that is now on the back burner to say the least.
That has got to cause some concern when you look at the long range goals of trying to come up with some kind of way of a cohesive peace plan.
AVALON: Well, these are two different issues. First of all, I would really take an issue about the reforms. We have not seen anything really developing.
So long as Arafat keeps the reins of the finances financing the terror and the power over the security/terrorist organizations there are not really reforms to speak about.
But, irrespective of that, once we are attacked -- once there are terror actions in our streets -- we must defend ourselves.
This is what every other country -- any other country would do. And this is what we are doing. We're still calling for real reforms for new leadership to emerge. But first and foremost we need the end of terror. They have to stop the terrorists, they have to arrest them, they have to dismantle the terrorist infrastructures, dismantle the terrorist explosive laboratories and cashes -- just come forward and talk peace.
O'BRIEN: All right. Daniel Avalon is the Israeli ambassador to the U.S. We appreciate your comments on this.
AVALON: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: And let's turn it now to the other side. Neither of these gentlemen wanted to appear together at the same time so we're doing it back to back.
Hasan Abdel Rahman is the chief Palestinian representative to the U.S. He had the benefit of hearing Mr. Avalon.
And let's pick up on that point that he made, which seems to be a very valid and difficult point to counter, which is -- stop the terrorism -- nip the terrorism in the bud.
What's the matter with that call for action on the part of the Israelis?
HASAN ABDEL RAHMAN, CHIEF PALESTINIAN REPRESENTATIVE: I believe that what perpetrates violence is Israeli behavior towards the Palestinian people. Remember that Israel is occupying the Palestinian territories for 36 years now.
Israel is building settlements in the Palestinian territories ...
O'BRIEN: Well, Mr. Rahman, wait a minute. Are you justifying that -- the terrorism then? Is that what you are saying?
ABDEL RAHMAN: Sir, I'm trying to explain the environment in which violence erupts. When you have Israeli Army killing Palestinians -- in the last 45 days alone not one single Israeli was killed -- six weeks and a half.
There were 75 Palestinians assassinated by Israel -- 40 of them are children. Isn't this (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that behaves like (UNINTELLIGIBLE)? Or does Palestinian life not count like an Israeli life? We have to remember that in the City of Nablus alone for 46 days 250,000 people are under curfew constantly. Isn't this terrorism by Israel? We have to be very -- we believe that Israel has the right to live in security but Israel has no right under any law to occupy other people, torture them, humiliate them, deprive them of their dignity and freedom.
O'BRIEN: Mr. Rahman ...
ABDEL RAHMAN: I asked ...
O'BRIEN: ... why not release some of those wanted people that Israel demands and allow them to be subjected to a trial? What's the matter with that?
Sir, wouldn't that be an action -- a concrete action indicating defiance of terrorism within the Palestinian Authority?
ABDEL RAHMAN: Sir, first of all, those are officials of the Palestinian Authority. This whole thing about being terrorist is a distortion of the facts. We never heard from Israel until yesterday that they wanted any of those people.
This is a protector to humiliate Yasser Arafat in the eyes of his people by showing him handing his own officials to the Israeli Army.
This is unacceptable. This is a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) behavior by any law and by any standards.
This is not the way to deal with the leader of another people. That's why Yasser Arafat and his aides are not going to be surrendering to the Israelis.
Imagine the view of Yasser Arafat handing his deputies to the Israeli Army. Listen -- we believe that Sharon is a terrorist and we believe that every single Israeli who kills Palestinians is a terrorist.
Would Mr. Sharon hand his own people to us?
O'BRIEN: Is Yasser Arafat, Mr. Rahman, headed for exile?
ABDEL RAHMAN: No, he is not. Yasser Arafat is in his own land. The Israeli Army should leave us. The Israeli Army is an invading army. The Israeli Army has no right to be there. The Israeli Army belongs to Tel Aviv and not to Ramallah.
So when (UNINTELLIGIBLE) speaks of the right of Israelis to live in peace, we believe in that. But we have also the right to live in peace in our own country -- in our own state.
He has to take his settlers away. They brought 300,000 Jewish settlers into the Palestinian territories. We have 75 Jewish settlements built under Mr. Sharon alone in violation of international law, in violation of the United States' policy.
That's what we have to look at -- what provokes the Palestinians into becoming (UNINTELLIGIBLE) ... O'BRIEN: Mr. Rahman?
ABDEL RAHMAN: ... behavior?
O'BRIEN: Mr. Rahman?
ABDEL RAHMAN: Yes?
O'BRIEN: Is Yasser Arafat in control? And, if he is -- if the answer to that is yes -- why doesn't he stop the suicide bombings?
ABDEL RAHMAN: Well, first of all, he is not in control because he has been under house arrest for six continuous months. He could not leave his headquarters.
Look at what the Israelis are doing. They are depriving him of the means to be effective and then blaming him for not being effective. Isn't this absurd and ridiculous?
You have a man for six months under house arrest, you destroy all of his security agencies and then ask him why not. And Israel is having 50,000 Israeli soldiers in the Palestinian territories and they are asking Arafat to protect Tel Aviv. Isn't that ridiculous?
O'BRIEN: Hasan Abdel Rahman, that's all the time we have unfortunately. We apologize for cutting you off but we appreciate your insights and comments.
ABDEL RAHMAN: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
