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CNN Sunday Morning

Legal Roundtable

Aired September 29, 2002 - 08:13   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Time for our legal round up.
Joining us from Miami today, Criminal Defense Attorney Jayne Weintraub.

JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Good morning.

COOPER: And from Philadelphia -- good morning, Jayne -- and from Philadelphia, trial attorney Michael Smerconish.

Thanks very much for being with us, both of you. Let's start off with the Augusta National Golf Club. News today that there may be some sort of a compromise in the works -- possibly some sort of face- saving move to try to allow some women in -- perhaps the wives of some of the current members.

Jayne, let's start off with you. Is this too little too late?

WEINTRAUB: I think that's even more nauseating. This is a classic case of the good old boy network having to get an alarm clock to wake up and come into the 21st century.

You can't just admit a few token wives and think that it's OK to discriminate and have a policy where women are not allowed. You just can't do that in today's world.

Is it legally allowed? Sure. It's a private club and it's legally allowed. But is it acceptable? Of course not.

COOPER: Well, Michael, as you know, just -- I think it was yesterday a move by an activist trying to get some of the members whose names have just been publicly revealed by "USA Today" trying to get them to publicly defend their membership in the club.

Is this the right way to go about change?

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, TRIAL ATTORNEY: I think this is a PC frenzy and it's like a terrorist campaign that is being waged against these fellows. First they attack the club generally. Then they went after the sponsors. Then they went after the network. They are being treated like they are war criminals

And what's their crime? They golf with the guys. Hey -- big deal. Get over it. I say to Hootie Johnson, "You go, guy."

COOPER: Just for the record, are you a member of this club, Michael?

SMERCONISH: I wish that I were a member. They don't want me either. Yugoslavs from Philadelphia -- they're out.

WEINTRAUB: Well, Michael, why is it then that there are judges that are literally denied Circuit Court of Appeals or Supreme Court justiceships because of this?

Discrimination is not acceptable whether it is gender, race or anything else.

SMERCONISH: I think, Jayne, because they are cowarding to arguments like that which you are putting forth that somehow they are dirty or they are involved in a bad enterprise. What's next? My poker club on Thursday nights -- somebody's going to knock at the door and say, "Could you please admit a woman to this?" Come on.

COOPER: But let me just step in here -- the argument is that the public statements of some of these CEOs or public officials in some cases seem to be at odds with a membership in a club which excludes half of the population.

SMERCONISH: But, Anderson, we're not talking about a hotel. It's not a restaurant. Nobody's getting hurt here. It's a purely social activity where guys are getting together to golf. It's not a violation of the Constitution. It's a social club.

WEINTRAUB: But then they don't need to have and enjoy the benefits and the prestige of the Masters Golf Tournament -- one of the most world renown tournaments there is.

Why do you think the sponsors have been pulled? Nobody wants to endorse this kind of discrimination ...

SMERCONISH: No.

WEINTRAUB: ... because the CEOs ...

SMERCONISH: It's because Augusta didn't want to put them through it. I think that women who oppose this -- they ...

WEINTRAUB: No, Michael, these CEOs ...

SMERCONISH: ... should form their own golf club and then they can have their own tournament.

WEINTRAUB: They couldn't discriminate in their corporations.

COOPER: Separate but equal. That's what you are saying there, Michael?

SMERCONISH: Absolutely.

COOPER: Let's move along -- we've got a lot to talk about this morning. I don't think until a couple of days ago anyone knew that New Jersey had a poet laureate but now everyone does. His name is Amiri Baraka.

And he was basically asked to resign because of a poem he read, which seemed to advocate the notion that Israel had advanced knowledge of the 9/11 attacks.

Jayne, should this guy be booted out?

WEINTRAUB: Well, personally -- yes -- I think he should be booted out because I don't think he should be getting state or federal funds. This is a man who is going to get $10,000 a year from the government of New Jersey, number one. And, number two, why hold such a man in esteem or out as a role model to younger people that are going to look up to him that are writing poetry?

Can he say those things that are horrible and disgusting to me? Of course he can. That's what makes America so great, Anderson -- that's what the first amendment is all about.

As long as the speech does not incite a riot, it's protected speech. It's a First Amendment issue.

But should we endorse this behavior and reward him by giving him such a stature with money? Absolutely not.

COOPER: Michael, you strike me as a poetry-reading kind of guy -- what's your take on it?

SMERCONISH: Hey -- I think I resent that, but I'm not sure. Listen, this guy is a knucklehead and he bought into some ridiculous Internet based urban legend about what went on on September 11. And here's where he's narrow-minded -- his response yesterday in "The New York Times" -- he said, "Well, anytime you criticize Israel you're perceived as anti-Semitic.

No, Mister -- his real name is Leroy Jones -- you, sir, are anti- American.

And what a disgrace that New Jersey would have embraced him. But thank God now Governor McGreevey wants him out.

Jayne is right on this one.

WEINTRAUB: Note the date and time.

COOPER: All right. We're going to take a break right now but we're going to come back on the other side we've got a lot more issues to talk about -- Zacarias Moussaoui amongst them. We'll probably lead off with that. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: It's about 20 past 8:00 here on the East Coast. We've got a lot more legal topics to talk about on the table including the case of four filmmakers who are finding themselves in court after making bum fights of video tapes showing the homeless hurting themselves and each other. Joining us again from Miami Criminal Defense Attorney Jayne Weintraub and from Philadelphia Trial Attorney Michael Smerconish.

Before we get to this homeless thing I want to go to Zacarias Moussaoui. I'm no lawyer and I want to hear from both of you because it seems outrageous to me that somehow he would be given classified documents.

We just found out the other day -- apparently some -- dozens of classified documents were accidentally given to Zacarias Moussaoui. They have since been recovered. We're not even sure if he looked at them.

What do you guys make of this? Jayne?

WEINTRAUB: Well, first of all, I don't know what line prosecutors are doing with such -- quote -- top secret classified information. That's number one.

Secretaries, assistants, paralegals -- everybody that has anything to do with preparing that case now has access to it. So I would hope that it isn't really 007 classified.

Number two is, I'm sure this will surprise Michael, but if the man has the right to defend himself he has the right to review the evidence that he will be confronted with against him in a court of law. This is the United States.

Again, Anderson, I'm not here to defend this man but I am here to strongly defend the Constitution of the United States. After all, isn't that what this is all about?

COOPER: And you're saying that because he is acting as his own attorney?

WEINTRAUB: Because he's acting as his own attorney. The judge, mind you, said, "If he had not been acting as his own attorney the government lawyer that would have been appointed for him would have had access to some of the documents."

Now what is the issue here? Well, I won't share them with my client to go over a defense? No. The man has a right to see the evidence that they will use against him. That's what this country stands for.

COOPER: Michael?

SMERCONISH: He's been handed millions -- literally millions -- of pages of documents and a whole variety of different CD-ROMs. And what I found interesting about the case is that one day after this was brought to the attention of the court, the judge told the prosecutors, "You may be better off not bringing this to his attention because the documents themselves were not literally stamped "classified.""

And her point was they may get lost in the shuffle. "If you call attention to this, you're going to be pointing out to Moussaoui and perhaps to others the presence of these documents."

Well, the prosecution went ahead anyway and said, "No. We want to make a big stink about it. We want them back."

He does have a right to see that which is going to be used against him but nothing beyond that level. And that's where this gets into a bit of a gray area.

COOPER: Well, Michael, let's move on to this other topic -- this homeless video. Four men have been charged. Felony charges are against them for getting apparently homeless guys to fight with each other -- one to pull out his tooth with a pliers -- all for -- on video that's to be sold.

We're showing some of the video right here. It's really charming stuff.

What do you make of it? These guys are basically saying, "Look, there's no legal basis for the charge of soliciting another to commit assault with deadly force." Michael?

SMERCONISH: I think these filmmakers are degenerates. I think they are the human equivalent of cockfights. That's really what they're staging here. And I would say to those prosecutors ...

WEINTRAUB: Boys will be boys, Michael.

SMERCONISH: ... "You've got to find something in the legal books and throw the book at them," because this is exploitation with a capital E.

COOPER: Jayne?

WEINTRAUB: I'm surprised that Michael didn't say, "Boys will be boys and this is perfectly acceptable."

SMERCONISH: What a cheap shot -- come on.

WEINTRAUB: I think it's disgusting behavior. And I think to promulgate this is awful. To have children watching this on TV should just never happen.

COOPER: All right -- let's move on. Minnesota Vikings are playing to day in Seattle. Randy Moss is going to be playing -- the team's highest player.

Just the other day, though, arrested for allegedly assaulting a Minneapolis traffic cop with his car. It was a maroon 2002 Lexus, in case you're wondering.

Jayne, should this guy be allowed to play?

WEINTRAUB: Well, should he be allowed to play or what should he be charged with are two different issues. Should he be allowed to play -- that's an NFL call -- what their rules and regulations are with regards to suspending players and how we're going to hold these multi-million dollar men up to better role model standards.

But a legal issue whether or not he should be able to play -- he's only been charged with a misdemeanor. And, Anderson, as a lawyer, that's significant to me because he was originally arrested for a felony. That to me says they can't prove the intent. They can't prove that they guy specifically wanted to hurt her or tried to run her over or anything like that.

Whether or not the act occurred -- whether or not his car actually touched her or hit her or ran her off the road? Probably -- yes -- from the evidence that they're going to suggest. However, it's only a misdemeanor. That's an infraction.

COOPER: Michael?

SMERCONISH: I found it significant that he apologized to everybody -- his family, his friends, the entire world -- except the woman who was more or less acting like a traffic cop that he plowed with his car about half a block.

And, by the way, he had some pot in his car. Of course, he says, "Well, it wasn't mine." It never is.

The NFL has got to take control of these types of situations because these athletes are role models. There's a pervasive problem now of athletes crossing the line and I want to see them be disciplined.

COOPER: All right. Michael Smerconish, Jayne Weintraub -- thanks very much for joining us on this Sunday morning. I appreciate your comments on the wide range of issues we talked about. I appreciate it. It was fun.

SMERCONISH: Thank you.

WEINTRAUB: Thank you. Have a good morning, Anderson.

COOPER: All right.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired September 29, 2002 - 08:13   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Time for our legal round up.
Joining us from Miami today, Criminal Defense Attorney Jayne Weintraub.

JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Good morning.

COOPER: And from Philadelphia -- good morning, Jayne -- and from Philadelphia, trial attorney Michael Smerconish.

Thanks very much for being with us, both of you. Let's start off with the Augusta National Golf Club. News today that there may be some sort of a compromise in the works -- possibly some sort of face- saving move to try to allow some women in -- perhaps the wives of some of the current members.

Jayne, let's start off with you. Is this too little too late?

WEINTRAUB: I think that's even more nauseating. This is a classic case of the good old boy network having to get an alarm clock to wake up and come into the 21st century.

You can't just admit a few token wives and think that it's OK to discriminate and have a policy where women are not allowed. You just can't do that in today's world.

Is it legally allowed? Sure. It's a private club and it's legally allowed. But is it acceptable? Of course not.

COOPER: Well, Michael, as you know, just -- I think it was yesterday a move by an activist trying to get some of the members whose names have just been publicly revealed by "USA Today" trying to get them to publicly defend their membership in the club.

Is this the right way to go about change?

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, TRIAL ATTORNEY: I think this is a PC frenzy and it's like a terrorist campaign that is being waged against these fellows. First they attack the club generally. Then they went after the sponsors. Then they went after the network. They are being treated like they are war criminals

And what's their crime? They golf with the guys. Hey -- big deal. Get over it. I say to Hootie Johnson, "You go, guy."

COOPER: Just for the record, are you a member of this club, Michael?

SMERCONISH: I wish that I were a member. They don't want me either. Yugoslavs from Philadelphia -- they're out.

WEINTRAUB: Well, Michael, why is it then that there are judges that are literally denied Circuit Court of Appeals or Supreme Court justiceships because of this?

Discrimination is not acceptable whether it is gender, race or anything else.

SMERCONISH: I think, Jayne, because they are cowarding to arguments like that which you are putting forth that somehow they are dirty or they are involved in a bad enterprise. What's next? My poker club on Thursday nights -- somebody's going to knock at the door and say, "Could you please admit a woman to this?" Come on.

COOPER: But let me just step in here -- the argument is that the public statements of some of these CEOs or public officials in some cases seem to be at odds with a membership in a club which excludes half of the population.

SMERCONISH: But, Anderson, we're not talking about a hotel. It's not a restaurant. Nobody's getting hurt here. It's a purely social activity where guys are getting together to golf. It's not a violation of the Constitution. It's a social club.

WEINTRAUB: But then they don't need to have and enjoy the benefits and the prestige of the Masters Golf Tournament -- one of the most world renown tournaments there is.

Why do you think the sponsors have been pulled? Nobody wants to endorse this kind of discrimination ...

SMERCONISH: No.

WEINTRAUB: ... because the CEOs ...

SMERCONISH: It's because Augusta didn't want to put them through it. I think that women who oppose this -- they ...

WEINTRAUB: No, Michael, these CEOs ...

SMERCONISH: ... should form their own golf club and then they can have their own tournament.

WEINTRAUB: They couldn't discriminate in their corporations.

COOPER: Separate but equal. That's what you are saying there, Michael?

SMERCONISH: Absolutely.

COOPER: Let's move along -- we've got a lot to talk about this morning. I don't think until a couple of days ago anyone knew that New Jersey had a poet laureate but now everyone does. His name is Amiri Baraka.

And he was basically asked to resign because of a poem he read, which seemed to advocate the notion that Israel had advanced knowledge of the 9/11 attacks.

Jayne, should this guy be booted out?

WEINTRAUB: Well, personally -- yes -- I think he should be booted out because I don't think he should be getting state or federal funds. This is a man who is going to get $10,000 a year from the government of New Jersey, number one. And, number two, why hold such a man in esteem or out as a role model to younger people that are going to look up to him that are writing poetry?

Can he say those things that are horrible and disgusting to me? Of course he can. That's what makes America so great, Anderson -- that's what the first amendment is all about.

As long as the speech does not incite a riot, it's protected speech. It's a First Amendment issue.

But should we endorse this behavior and reward him by giving him such a stature with money? Absolutely not.

COOPER: Michael, you strike me as a poetry-reading kind of guy -- what's your take on it?

SMERCONISH: Hey -- I think I resent that, but I'm not sure. Listen, this guy is a knucklehead and he bought into some ridiculous Internet based urban legend about what went on on September 11. And here's where he's narrow-minded -- his response yesterday in "The New York Times" -- he said, "Well, anytime you criticize Israel you're perceived as anti-Semitic.

No, Mister -- his real name is Leroy Jones -- you, sir, are anti- American.

And what a disgrace that New Jersey would have embraced him. But thank God now Governor McGreevey wants him out.

Jayne is right on this one.

WEINTRAUB: Note the date and time.

COOPER: All right. We're going to take a break right now but we're going to come back on the other side we've got a lot more issues to talk about -- Zacarias Moussaoui amongst them. We'll probably lead off with that. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: It's about 20 past 8:00 here on the East Coast. We've got a lot more legal topics to talk about on the table including the case of four filmmakers who are finding themselves in court after making bum fights of video tapes showing the homeless hurting themselves and each other. Joining us again from Miami Criminal Defense Attorney Jayne Weintraub and from Philadelphia Trial Attorney Michael Smerconish.

Before we get to this homeless thing I want to go to Zacarias Moussaoui. I'm no lawyer and I want to hear from both of you because it seems outrageous to me that somehow he would be given classified documents.

We just found out the other day -- apparently some -- dozens of classified documents were accidentally given to Zacarias Moussaoui. They have since been recovered. We're not even sure if he looked at them.

What do you guys make of this? Jayne?

WEINTRAUB: Well, first of all, I don't know what line prosecutors are doing with such -- quote -- top secret classified information. That's number one.

Secretaries, assistants, paralegals -- everybody that has anything to do with preparing that case now has access to it. So I would hope that it isn't really 007 classified.

Number two is, I'm sure this will surprise Michael, but if the man has the right to defend himself he has the right to review the evidence that he will be confronted with against him in a court of law. This is the United States.

Again, Anderson, I'm not here to defend this man but I am here to strongly defend the Constitution of the United States. After all, isn't that what this is all about?

COOPER: And you're saying that because he is acting as his own attorney?

WEINTRAUB: Because he's acting as his own attorney. The judge, mind you, said, "If he had not been acting as his own attorney the government lawyer that would have been appointed for him would have had access to some of the documents."

Now what is the issue here? Well, I won't share them with my client to go over a defense? No. The man has a right to see the evidence that they will use against him. That's what this country stands for.

COOPER: Michael?

SMERCONISH: He's been handed millions -- literally millions -- of pages of documents and a whole variety of different CD-ROMs. And what I found interesting about the case is that one day after this was brought to the attention of the court, the judge told the prosecutors, "You may be better off not bringing this to his attention because the documents themselves were not literally stamped "classified.""

And her point was they may get lost in the shuffle. "If you call attention to this, you're going to be pointing out to Moussaoui and perhaps to others the presence of these documents."

Well, the prosecution went ahead anyway and said, "No. We want to make a big stink about it. We want them back."

He does have a right to see that which is going to be used against him but nothing beyond that level. And that's where this gets into a bit of a gray area.

COOPER: Well, Michael, let's move on to this other topic -- this homeless video. Four men have been charged. Felony charges are against them for getting apparently homeless guys to fight with each other -- one to pull out his tooth with a pliers -- all for -- on video that's to be sold.

We're showing some of the video right here. It's really charming stuff.

What do you make of it? These guys are basically saying, "Look, there's no legal basis for the charge of soliciting another to commit assault with deadly force." Michael?

SMERCONISH: I think these filmmakers are degenerates. I think they are the human equivalent of cockfights. That's really what they're staging here. And I would say to those prosecutors ...

WEINTRAUB: Boys will be boys, Michael.

SMERCONISH: ... "You've got to find something in the legal books and throw the book at them," because this is exploitation with a capital E.

COOPER: Jayne?

WEINTRAUB: I'm surprised that Michael didn't say, "Boys will be boys and this is perfectly acceptable."

SMERCONISH: What a cheap shot -- come on.

WEINTRAUB: I think it's disgusting behavior. And I think to promulgate this is awful. To have children watching this on TV should just never happen.

COOPER: All right -- let's move on. Minnesota Vikings are playing to day in Seattle. Randy Moss is going to be playing -- the team's highest player.

Just the other day, though, arrested for allegedly assaulting a Minneapolis traffic cop with his car. It was a maroon 2002 Lexus, in case you're wondering.

Jayne, should this guy be allowed to play?

WEINTRAUB: Well, should he be allowed to play or what should he be charged with are two different issues. Should he be allowed to play -- that's an NFL call -- what their rules and regulations are with regards to suspending players and how we're going to hold these multi-million dollar men up to better role model standards.

But a legal issue whether or not he should be able to play -- he's only been charged with a misdemeanor. And, Anderson, as a lawyer, that's significant to me because he was originally arrested for a felony. That to me says they can't prove the intent. They can't prove that they guy specifically wanted to hurt her or tried to run her over or anything like that.

Whether or not the act occurred -- whether or not his car actually touched her or hit her or ran her off the road? Probably -- yes -- from the evidence that they're going to suggest. However, it's only a misdemeanor. That's an infraction.

COOPER: Michael?

SMERCONISH: I found it significant that he apologized to everybody -- his family, his friends, the entire world -- except the woman who was more or less acting like a traffic cop that he plowed with his car about half a block.

And, by the way, he had some pot in his car. Of course, he says, "Well, it wasn't mine." It never is.

The NFL has got to take control of these types of situations because these athletes are role models. There's a pervasive problem now of athletes crossing the line and I want to see them be disciplined.

COOPER: All right. Michael Smerconish, Jayne Weintraub -- thanks very much for joining us on this Sunday morning. I appreciate your comments on the wide range of issues we talked about. I appreciate it. It was fun.

SMERCONISH: Thank you.

WEINTRAUB: Thank you. Have a good morning, Anderson.

COOPER: All right.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com