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CNN Sunday Morning
Police Continue Searching for D.C. Sniper
Aired October 20, 2002 - 11:01 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Our top story, the investigation of a shooting in Virginia. A man was shot in a steak house parking lot last night in Hanover County, Virginia, and the cases involving some of the same investigators who are part of the sniper case in the Washington, D.C. area. If this is indeed connected, it would be the first time the sniper struck during a weekend, and so far outside of the Washington, D.C. area perimeter.
The crime scene is far removed from the Washington Beltway, about 90 miles south of near the small community of -- or in the small community of Ashland. While crime experts work to establish whether the shooting is indeed linked to the 11 other sniper attacks in the D.C. area, surgeons at a Richmond hospital work to rescue the victim. We have extensive team coverage for you, with CNN's Ed Lavandera at the crime scene in Ashland, Virginia. Patty Davis is with the victim -- or at the hospital, rather, in Richmond.
But we begin with Carol Costello, who is keeping an eye on the big picture from the investigation command center in Montgomery County, Maryland -- Carol.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Fredricka. I just want to explain something to our viewers. You know, since this shooting hasn't been officially tied to the sniper, this news conference that's about to take place around 11:00 Eastern time, of course, which it is, so hopefully it will happen in the next 10 minutes, but anyway, since the shooting has not been officially tied to the sniper, local officials will be taking the lead in the press conference.
Now, if police find hard-core evidence linking the shooting to the sniper, then it would come under Montgomery County's jurisdiction, and we would see Chief Moose leading the investigation, but as it stands right now, no official word that this latest shooting is tied to the sniper, but it sure looks that way.
Let's go live to Ashland, Virginia right now, where Ed Lavandera has been standing by. What's the mood there, Ed? Are people driving by looking? I mean, this is a community that doesn't see much crime.
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. In fact, I think at one point one of the deputies here was asked when was the last time there had been a murder in this city, and the officer responded "February." And so that kind of gives you an idea of what kind of attention this is getting here. A lot of onlookers coming by today throughout the morning. Not only just checking out the scene, but quite frankly just the sea of satellite trucks that have camped out here, as well, so that always of interest to a lot of people who drive by the area as well.
We're waiting for the press briefing to begin. We were told that the investigators here in Ashland were in a teleconference with the investigators that have been working the sniper's case with everyone from all the Virginia authorities and the Montgomery County authorities, as well as the federal investigators that have been working this case so intently for the last two weeks, and perhaps that call started at 8:30. We were told that they would come over here, the investigators here would come over as soon as that call ended. So we can deduce from that that this call has turned out to be rather lengthy at this point. This press briefing was supposed to have started an hour ago. So we're still waiting on the authorities here to show up -- Carol.
COSTELLO: Explain to our viewers again the scene. You're standing in front of the Ponderosa restaurant. The shooting itself took place behind the restaurant, correct?
LAVANDERA: Yeah, if you look right behind me, the Ponderosa restaurant is just across the street here, and directly behind the building is where the 37-year-old man and his wife had walked out of the restaurant last night and where the shooting occurred, so a lot of people and the investigators here paying close attention to that area. They believe that since the gentleman was shot back there, that perhaps somewhere along the wooded area back there or behind one of the other buildings to the side of the restaurant that's where the shot might have come through. So investigators are out there, combing through that area, looking for any kind of clues or evidence that they might be able to find, and we'll see what they turn up with here in the hours ahead.
COSTELLO: Yeah, and, Ed, those woods look to be pretty dense, but the breast find for investigators would be a shell casing, right?
LAVANDERA: Yeah, and that's exactly the kind of stuff they're looking for at this point, and so many people looking through this area, just any kind of evidence. The crime scene here is huge and that's what they're paying close attention to.
COSTELLO: Yeah, you told us before how much of the area has been roped off by yellow tape. Tell us again.
LAVANDERA: The area, quite frankly, stretches from not only just where this building is right here, but there is a Burger King and a Wendy's on each side of it. We're looking at about 300 or 400 yards that they have roped off and taken into this crime scene area, and that's what they're going off of. They're going to be going through each little portion of that, looking for whatever they might be able to find.
COSTELLO: All right. Thank you, Ed. We want to go to Richmond, Virginia, once again, to check on the condition of this 37-year-old man who continues to struggle for his life this morning. Patty Davis is there. Any updates? PATTY DAVIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Carol, more surgery. That's the latest update. More surgery likely for this victim today. He was shot in the abdomen, and injuries described as extensive. Lots of internal bleeding, as well.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His condition right now remains critical. He is in a life-threatening state, but it has not worsened over the night, which is good. There is likelihood of additional surgery.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DAVIS: What police are hoping for from an additional surgery is a bullet or part of a bullet. Doctors did not take one out when this man was operated on last night.
Now, hospital's staff describing the wife of this victim, who remains with him in intensive scare at his side as extremely brave, holding up very well.
Now, this man lucky he was brought to this center, the Medical College of Virginia. This is a trauma one center, meaning they've got trauma surgeons on duty 24 hours a day from all specialties. This man probably owes his life to the fact that he came to such a well- equipped hospital. No news coming out of this hospital in terms of whether these surgeries will find the bullet or not, when they do or don't. That is being handled by police. Police have requested that they handle all the information in this investigation -- Carol.
COSTELLO: And we understand the man's wife is inside the hospital, of course sitting by his side.
DAVIS: I'm sorry, repeat that question?
COSTELLO: His wife is there, as well.
DAVIS: Yeah, his wife is by his side. He remains in intensive care and she is bravely sticking this out. Obviously, a very traumatic event for her. She watched him fall to his knees. She thought she had heard a car backfire. Indeed, it was her husband being shot, and obviously she was instrumental in making sure that 911 was called and getting him to the hospital. But she's got to be suffering here -- Carol.
COSTELLO: Oh, for sure. And they're just passing through. We don't believe they're from the area.
Thank you, Patty Davis, for that update.
Fredricka, one more thing. We understand the next scheduled news conference out of Montgomery County, which is where I am, is scheduled for noon tomorrow. There will not be one today, and of course the Montgomery County sniper task force in Ashland, Virginia, where we are awaiting that press conference. It should happen at any moment. WHITFIELD: All right, still waiting for that, and there is a live picture of the scene there as reporters are all awaiting at the scene in Ashland for that press conference, and we'll bring that to you live right here on CNN. Thank you, Carol.
Well, retrieving evidence in the confirmed sniper attacks has been quite a challenge. And figuring out the motive behind these shootings even more perplexing. CNN criminologist Casey Jordan has been evaluating all the nuances of this case, and it's good to see you again, Casey.
CASEY JORDAN, CNN CRIMINOLOGIST: Good to be here, Fredricka.
WHITFIELD: All right. Well, it is your view as you study serial killers that it is likely that they are very good planners and we still don't know if the shooting last night is connected. We do want to underscore that point, but in the other shootings that have taken place in the perimeter, all being connected to the .223 caliber weapons, the work of a person who is carefully planning his attacks, even though the victims are very random.
JORDAN: That's absolutely true, and I think that's what has been so fascinating about this particular case is that it originally started out, of course, as a spree shooting, a very different psychology than that of a serial killer. The serial killer, as opposed to the spree shooter, wants to get away with it. Spree shooters may or may not want to get away with it. Some of them are more like mass murderers on wheels and they don't plan on surviving the episode. In fact, might take their own lives or let police officers take their lives.
But what we're seeing here is somebody who transitioned from a spree-type killing to a serial killing.
WHITFIELD: What does that mean?
JORDAN: Well, serial killers...
WHITFIELD: What happened there?
JORDAN: We don't know. That's why this is so fascinating to criminologists. If I had the answers, I'd hand them to you. But I mean, that's why we're assessing this on a daily basis, because it continues to feed up new variables.
But the thing about serial killers, in the last analysis, they are serial because they get away with it, because they are successful in evading capture. Now, most of the serial killers that we study are dramatically different than the shooter that we would see in these episodes, and very often they get away with it by covering up the crimes, trying to hide the bodies, you know, altering the crime scene in some way, trying to avoid detection.
That is, of course, completely opposite of what we're seeing here, where because of the distance between the perpetrator and the victims, we're not seeing any effort to cover up the crime, but we are seeing tremendous effort being put into evading capture.
WHITFIELD: And I know I'm asking you to analyze because you're not in the minds of this killer or killers, but as we talk about, you know, you made some interesting parallels there as we talk about initially within that first 15-hour period there were five shootings, you know, one after the other, all in very close proximity of one other. And then quite suddenly over the next few days and over the next few weeks then things have spread out quite a bit, but the commonality still remains that they were easy access locations, or at least the majority of those incidents taking place not far away from a highway exit.
JORDAN: Absolutely. And there are two primary ways that I look at this transitioning from spree to serial. The first theory might be that this person had a very bad day, cracked, as we might say, had a breaking point and went on a spree, didn't really plan it, but was -- maybe wasn't even planning on getting away with it, but did, and was so amazed that they did that they began to like the fact that they could do this, get away with it, developed the God complex, decided to engage in this little chess game with law enforcement, and evolved into the serial killer that we're seeing now.
Alternatively, and I probably favor theory number two a little bit better, the person wanted to get our attention from the beginning, did not want any mistake that he or they meant business. They are trying to prove something, more to themselves than to anybody else, or else I think we would have more communication from them, and wanted to be very clear from the get-go, as we say, that this was going to be violent and that we had better pay attention. And then proceeded to engage in a pre-planned chess game with law enforcement that's been drawn out over the last two to three weeks.
WHITFIELD: And perhaps that this person is feeling very much in control, in control of the attention that these cases are getting.
JORDAN: Absolutely. I have said this before, but it's worth pointing out again. Andrew Cunanan received a tremendous amount of media attention five years ago after he shot Gianni Versace, but many people didn't even realize when he shot four people within 10 days, it didn't even make the news. I mean, it was just kind of a blip, maybe one day that they were looking for this person, and we knew who he was, and, yet, we didn't really have a manhunt until almost two months later he really got our attention.
So it occurs to me that perpetrator or shooters in this case might not have wanted that lull to happen. They wanted us to know from the beginning that it is an act that's going to continue and keep us worried for a while.
WHITFIELD: All right. Very interesting. Thank you very much. Casey Jordan, always good to talk to you.
JORDAN: You, too, Fredricka.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired October 20, 2002 - 11:01 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Our top story, the investigation of a shooting in Virginia. A man was shot in a steak house parking lot last night in Hanover County, Virginia, and the cases involving some of the same investigators who are part of the sniper case in the Washington, D.C. area. If this is indeed connected, it would be the first time the sniper struck during a weekend, and so far outside of the Washington, D.C. area perimeter.
The crime scene is far removed from the Washington Beltway, about 90 miles south of near the small community of -- or in the small community of Ashland. While crime experts work to establish whether the shooting is indeed linked to the 11 other sniper attacks in the D.C. area, surgeons at a Richmond hospital work to rescue the victim. We have extensive team coverage for you, with CNN's Ed Lavandera at the crime scene in Ashland, Virginia. Patty Davis is with the victim -- or at the hospital, rather, in Richmond.
But we begin with Carol Costello, who is keeping an eye on the big picture from the investigation command center in Montgomery County, Maryland -- Carol.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Fredricka. I just want to explain something to our viewers. You know, since this shooting hasn't been officially tied to the sniper, this news conference that's about to take place around 11:00 Eastern time, of course, which it is, so hopefully it will happen in the next 10 minutes, but anyway, since the shooting has not been officially tied to the sniper, local officials will be taking the lead in the press conference.
Now, if police find hard-core evidence linking the shooting to the sniper, then it would come under Montgomery County's jurisdiction, and we would see Chief Moose leading the investigation, but as it stands right now, no official word that this latest shooting is tied to the sniper, but it sure looks that way.
Let's go live to Ashland, Virginia right now, where Ed Lavandera has been standing by. What's the mood there, Ed? Are people driving by looking? I mean, this is a community that doesn't see much crime.
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. In fact, I think at one point one of the deputies here was asked when was the last time there had been a murder in this city, and the officer responded "February." And so that kind of gives you an idea of what kind of attention this is getting here. A lot of onlookers coming by today throughout the morning. Not only just checking out the scene, but quite frankly just the sea of satellite trucks that have camped out here, as well, so that always of interest to a lot of people who drive by the area as well.
We're waiting for the press briefing to begin. We were told that the investigators here in Ashland were in a teleconference with the investigators that have been working the sniper's case with everyone from all the Virginia authorities and the Montgomery County authorities, as well as the federal investigators that have been working this case so intently for the last two weeks, and perhaps that call started at 8:30. We were told that they would come over here, the investigators here would come over as soon as that call ended. So we can deduce from that that this call has turned out to be rather lengthy at this point. This press briefing was supposed to have started an hour ago. So we're still waiting on the authorities here to show up -- Carol.
COSTELLO: Explain to our viewers again the scene. You're standing in front of the Ponderosa restaurant. The shooting itself took place behind the restaurant, correct?
LAVANDERA: Yeah, if you look right behind me, the Ponderosa restaurant is just across the street here, and directly behind the building is where the 37-year-old man and his wife had walked out of the restaurant last night and where the shooting occurred, so a lot of people and the investigators here paying close attention to that area. They believe that since the gentleman was shot back there, that perhaps somewhere along the wooded area back there or behind one of the other buildings to the side of the restaurant that's where the shot might have come through. So investigators are out there, combing through that area, looking for any kind of clues or evidence that they might be able to find, and we'll see what they turn up with here in the hours ahead.
COSTELLO: Yeah, and, Ed, those woods look to be pretty dense, but the breast find for investigators would be a shell casing, right?
LAVANDERA: Yeah, and that's exactly the kind of stuff they're looking for at this point, and so many people looking through this area, just any kind of evidence. The crime scene here is huge and that's what they're paying close attention to.
COSTELLO: Yeah, you told us before how much of the area has been roped off by yellow tape. Tell us again.
LAVANDERA: The area, quite frankly, stretches from not only just where this building is right here, but there is a Burger King and a Wendy's on each side of it. We're looking at about 300 or 400 yards that they have roped off and taken into this crime scene area, and that's what they're going off of. They're going to be going through each little portion of that, looking for whatever they might be able to find.
COSTELLO: All right. Thank you, Ed. We want to go to Richmond, Virginia, once again, to check on the condition of this 37-year-old man who continues to struggle for his life this morning. Patty Davis is there. Any updates? PATTY DAVIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Carol, more surgery. That's the latest update. More surgery likely for this victim today. He was shot in the abdomen, and injuries described as extensive. Lots of internal bleeding, as well.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His condition right now remains critical. He is in a life-threatening state, but it has not worsened over the night, which is good. There is likelihood of additional surgery.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DAVIS: What police are hoping for from an additional surgery is a bullet or part of a bullet. Doctors did not take one out when this man was operated on last night.
Now, hospital's staff describing the wife of this victim, who remains with him in intensive scare at his side as extremely brave, holding up very well.
Now, this man lucky he was brought to this center, the Medical College of Virginia. This is a trauma one center, meaning they've got trauma surgeons on duty 24 hours a day from all specialties. This man probably owes his life to the fact that he came to such a well- equipped hospital. No news coming out of this hospital in terms of whether these surgeries will find the bullet or not, when they do or don't. That is being handled by police. Police have requested that they handle all the information in this investigation -- Carol.
COSTELLO: And we understand the man's wife is inside the hospital, of course sitting by his side.
DAVIS: I'm sorry, repeat that question?
COSTELLO: His wife is there, as well.
DAVIS: Yeah, his wife is by his side. He remains in intensive care and she is bravely sticking this out. Obviously, a very traumatic event for her. She watched him fall to his knees. She thought she had heard a car backfire. Indeed, it was her husband being shot, and obviously she was instrumental in making sure that 911 was called and getting him to the hospital. But she's got to be suffering here -- Carol.
COSTELLO: Oh, for sure. And they're just passing through. We don't believe they're from the area.
Thank you, Patty Davis, for that update.
Fredricka, one more thing. We understand the next scheduled news conference out of Montgomery County, which is where I am, is scheduled for noon tomorrow. There will not be one today, and of course the Montgomery County sniper task force in Ashland, Virginia, where we are awaiting that press conference. It should happen at any moment. WHITFIELD: All right, still waiting for that, and there is a live picture of the scene there as reporters are all awaiting at the scene in Ashland for that press conference, and we'll bring that to you live right here on CNN. Thank you, Carol.
Well, retrieving evidence in the confirmed sniper attacks has been quite a challenge. And figuring out the motive behind these shootings even more perplexing. CNN criminologist Casey Jordan has been evaluating all the nuances of this case, and it's good to see you again, Casey.
CASEY JORDAN, CNN CRIMINOLOGIST: Good to be here, Fredricka.
WHITFIELD: All right. Well, it is your view as you study serial killers that it is likely that they are very good planners and we still don't know if the shooting last night is connected. We do want to underscore that point, but in the other shootings that have taken place in the perimeter, all being connected to the .223 caliber weapons, the work of a person who is carefully planning his attacks, even though the victims are very random.
JORDAN: That's absolutely true, and I think that's what has been so fascinating about this particular case is that it originally started out, of course, as a spree shooting, a very different psychology than that of a serial killer. The serial killer, as opposed to the spree shooter, wants to get away with it. Spree shooters may or may not want to get away with it. Some of them are more like mass murderers on wheels and they don't plan on surviving the episode. In fact, might take their own lives or let police officers take their lives.
But what we're seeing here is somebody who transitioned from a spree-type killing to a serial killing.
WHITFIELD: What does that mean?
JORDAN: Well, serial killers...
WHITFIELD: What happened there?
JORDAN: We don't know. That's why this is so fascinating to criminologists. If I had the answers, I'd hand them to you. But I mean, that's why we're assessing this on a daily basis, because it continues to feed up new variables.
But the thing about serial killers, in the last analysis, they are serial because they get away with it, because they are successful in evading capture. Now, most of the serial killers that we study are dramatically different than the shooter that we would see in these episodes, and very often they get away with it by covering up the crimes, trying to hide the bodies, you know, altering the crime scene in some way, trying to avoid detection.
That is, of course, completely opposite of what we're seeing here, where because of the distance between the perpetrator and the victims, we're not seeing any effort to cover up the crime, but we are seeing tremendous effort being put into evading capture.
WHITFIELD: And I know I'm asking you to analyze because you're not in the minds of this killer or killers, but as we talk about, you know, you made some interesting parallels there as we talk about initially within that first 15-hour period there were five shootings, you know, one after the other, all in very close proximity of one other. And then quite suddenly over the next few days and over the next few weeks then things have spread out quite a bit, but the commonality still remains that they were easy access locations, or at least the majority of those incidents taking place not far away from a highway exit.
JORDAN: Absolutely. And there are two primary ways that I look at this transitioning from spree to serial. The first theory might be that this person had a very bad day, cracked, as we might say, had a breaking point and went on a spree, didn't really plan it, but was -- maybe wasn't even planning on getting away with it, but did, and was so amazed that they did that they began to like the fact that they could do this, get away with it, developed the God complex, decided to engage in this little chess game with law enforcement, and evolved into the serial killer that we're seeing now.
Alternatively, and I probably favor theory number two a little bit better, the person wanted to get our attention from the beginning, did not want any mistake that he or they meant business. They are trying to prove something, more to themselves than to anybody else, or else I think we would have more communication from them, and wanted to be very clear from the get-go, as we say, that this was going to be violent and that we had better pay attention. And then proceeded to engage in a pre-planned chess game with law enforcement that's been drawn out over the last two to three weeks.
WHITFIELD: And perhaps that this person is feeling very much in control, in control of the attention that these cases are getting.
JORDAN: Absolutely. I have said this before, but it's worth pointing out again. Andrew Cunanan received a tremendous amount of media attention five years ago after he shot Gianni Versace, but many people didn't even realize when he shot four people within 10 days, it didn't even make the news. I mean, it was just kind of a blip, maybe one day that they were looking for this person, and we knew who he was, and, yet, we didn't really have a manhunt until almost two months later he really got our attention.
So it occurs to me that perpetrator or shooters in this case might not have wanted that lull to happen. They wanted us to know from the beginning that it is an act that's going to continue and keep us worried for a while.
WHITFIELD: All right. Very interesting. Thank you very much. Casey Jordan, always good to talk to you.
JORDAN: You, too, Fredricka.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
