Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Sunday Morning
Sniper on the Loose, Part I
Aired October 20, 2002 - 07:02 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY SMITH, CNN ANCHOR: Let's get right to it with the latest shooting details -- details on the shooting in Virginia, how the victim is doing, and what's next in the investigation.
We've got reporters covering all the angles for you. Ed Lavandera is in Richmond. In Ashland, actually, Patty Davis is in Richmond, but let's start though with CNN's Carol Costello who is in Montgomery County, Maryland, headquarters of the sniper investigation.
Good morning.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Larry.
Let me begin by saying if this is the work of the sniper, this would be the 13th shooting, the sixth that happened at night. And this would be the third victim who managed to survive the shooting. That 37-year old man was eating at a Ponderosa restaurant with his wife. He just pulled off the highway.
They were walking outside of the restaurant when the wife thought she heard a car backfire. She didn't even realize her husband had been shot until he turned around and said, "I've been shot."
He was rushed to the hospital. He was in surgery until 11:45 last night. That's Eastern time. He'd been shot in the stomach. He's still hanging in there.
As Larry told you, we have correspondents covering the story from every angle. We want to head out to Ashland, Virginia, which is about 90 miles south of the D.C. area to bring us up to date on what police know right now.
Ed?
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Carol, we are just across the roadway here. You can see behind me the Ponderosa steak house, where the shooting happened last night.
The 37-year old victim in this case was directly behind the restaurant. I don't know if it's hard to make out at this time of night, but you can see the wooded area. And at this point, investigators are looking into the possibility that perhaps the shot came from that wooded area.
There is a road that goes along back there, that perhaps provides some sort of in and out road for the shooter. But the initial details of this case eerily similar to the sniper shootings that have been going on in the D.C. area. And although this shooting hasn't been officially connected so far, the similarities are eerie.
One shot fired, an unsuspecting victim, and also an initial search for what authorities described as a white van with a ladder rack. And the search that pursued last night is very similar to what we've also seen in several of the recent shootings, as the task force in the D.C. area has a plan in effect that pretty much shuts down the roadways and sends up the search helicopters to try to trap this shooter, wherever he or see might be, or whoever they might be, as they try to get out of the area as well.
So we saw that last night, as I -- interstate 95 was basically shut down, authorities making their searches. They were able to get to the scene very quickly and shut down the roadways, but again, no chance of catching the sniper.
And again, the investigators will continue to work here as daylight comes up here, and be able to continue to work through that wooded area back there, and perhaps other areas of the parking lot behind the Ponderosa Steak house restaurant, and searching for clues this morning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FREDERIC PLEASANTS, CHIEF, ASHLAND, VA POLICE: The best evidence we have right now from the few witnesses we have, they believe the shot came from a wooded treeline directly behind these businesses that are on England Street.
But we do not have any thing more. I will emphasize once again we have been able to uncover no credible evidence or description of a suspect or a suspect vehicle.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LAVANDERA: And one other similarity is just the closeness that this restaurant is to a major thoroughfare. Interstate 95, just a half mile up the road this way, again, providing what could easily be an easy escape route for whoever the shooter might have been. That's another detail there that is eerily similar to several of the other -- many of the other shootings that have gone as well.
We understand authorities here in this county will be also meeting with the authorities in Montgomery County at 8:30. There's a press briefing scheduled for later this morning. Perhaps more information being released about this particular shooting later on this morning.
Carol, back to you.
COSTELLO: Ed, there's more than one escape route, too. That's near route 1 and route 54 as well?
LAVANDERA: Yes, this area provides probably a lot of that. And in driving around this area, also kind of provides you an idea of just how well someone might have to know this area to be able to pull that off as well, which again gets us back into many of the things we've been discussing over the last two weeks in regards to this case.
COSTELLO: Right, the other thing I wanted to ask you about was there more than witness that saw a white van fleeing the scene?
LAVANDERA: That was initially that's what authorities came out and were saying that. We've also heard our reporter, Gary Tuchman, who was out here throughout the evening was also saying that search for that white van with the ladder rack was put out there as well, just because of the -- so many of the details of this particular case were so similar to the other sniper shootings, that they felt that they needed to do that immediately, just to get everyone on the same page.
COSTELLO: The other question I had is police shut down I-95 from Washington all the way into Richmond. That's an 80 mile stretch. They searched as many vehicles as they could. This tactic doesn't seem to be working, does it?
LAVANDERA: It's seemingly such a daunting task. You know, I've seen this operated -- we've seen this operation go into effect several times. And they literally pull over each and every car, taking down license plate information, drivers license information. And in this particular case, it seemed to have gotten into place a lot faster, perhaps in some of the other ones from some of the initial reports that came out.
But again, there is no arrest to report. And that is frankly the most depressing part of everything.
COSTELLO: No, and you're not kidding. OK, Ed Lavandera. Thank you very much. We're going to get back to you throughout the morning.
We're going to head to the hospital right now, where this 37-year old victim, we hope is recovering. It's called the Medical College of Richmond. Patty Davis is there.
And Patty, I understand that the victim was actually talking to paramedics as he brought into the hospital?
PATTY DAVIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right. We are told that he was conscious when he arrived here. They rushed him to the hospital last night around 8:30 p.m. with a gunshot wound to his abdomen.
Now he underwent three hours of surgery, now fighting for his life in critical, but guarded condition in the intensive care unit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE KUTTENKULER, HOSPITAL SPOKESMAN: He's a 37-year old male. Came here. He was conscious when he arrived. And was immediately taken to the operating room. He was in the OR for about three hours. And he got out shortly after midnight, and he's in critical condition.
He's not stable. He's -- he has -- he's in very serious condition and being watched constantly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DAVIS: Now this man is not from the area. We're told he was passing through with his wife. He had stopped at that Ponderosa to get a bite to eat, also to gas up as the passed through the area. One critical, critical piece of evidence here that police have not been able to get their hands on, and that is the bullet.
In fact, doctors during that three hours of surgery did not retrieve the bullet from this man's body. He may undergo further surgery we are told. The may have another opportunity to get that bullet, but right now, that critical piece of information that in fact may connect this to the other sniper shootings is indeed inside this man's body, and will remain there until surgeons get another chance, if at all, to retrieve it -- Carol.
COSTELLO: Yes, and that could be the only piece of evidence that police find. It's just a sad story. I understand his wife is in there, very upset, of course, and by his side.
Patty Davis, thank you very much for bringing us up to date on this man's condition.
As you heard Ed Lavandera say, Larry, there is a news conference scheduled with the Ashland police and the Hanover County Sheriff's Department. That will take place at 10:00. The Montgomery County Task Force will meet with those departments at about 8:30 Eastern time this morning.
Back to you, Larry.
SMITH: OK, Carol, thanks.
I do have one question for Patty Davis as the hospital there in Richmond. Patty, you mentioned that the bullet was not removed. The patient's condition right now, is he still in danger of his life?
DAVIS: Well yes, critical but guarded condition. That means that his injuries are life threatening. And critical but guarded condition, we just got an update he remains in that condition. We are told by the hospital they are not going to be giving any press conferences here. So any information we get is going to be out of police.
Back to you, Larry.
SMITH: OK, Patty Davis in Richmond, Ed Lavandera in Ashland, and Carol Costello, Montgomery County, Maryland. Thanks so much for your reports.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CATHERINE CALLAWAY, CNN ANCHOR: We're going to turn their experts this morning for their take on this latest incident. Joining us from Washington, CNN security analyst Kelly McCann and in New York, CNN's criminologist Casey Jordan. And here in Atlanta, joining us, CNN firearms analyst, retired Sergeant Major Eric Haney.
Thank you all three for being with us this morning.
Casey, let me start with you. What is your take on this? We now have a shooting, if this is indeed connected to the sniper, that has occurred on the weekend. And before, this hadn't happened?
CASEY JORDAN, CNN CRIMINOLOGIST: Well, I always said that just like one robin doesn't make spring, two event free weekends doesn't really make a pattern either. The biggest thing that we have always noted about these shooting events is that there is not pattern. And as soon as we proclaimed that we think we have one figured out, the shooter likes to prove us wrong.
So even though it was an extremely unpleasant surprise to find out there have been yet another shooting, and we have yet to conclusively link this shooting to the D.C. area sniper, I think all initial evidence indicates that it must be the sniper or a very good copycat.
CALLAWAY: Kelly, what is your take on this? What is similar and not similar in this case in your opinion?
KELLY MCCANN, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: There are three similarities, Catherine one of which is there was no personal relationship or other motivation for the shooting to take place. There was no previous argument. There wasn't a road rage kind of thing, etcetera. So there couldn't have been, you know, a predictability of it.
Lastly, the whole point of the randomness of it. Here's a traveler. So there couldn't have been a time and place predictable element where someone was laying in wait for this guy. So those elements right there would point to the engagement of a total stranger.
CALLAWAY: Eric, let's ask you about the shooting itself. We know that the bullet has been lodged into this 37-year old gentleman. They haven't been able to retrieve that. How difficult is it going to be if they're not able to retrieve that bullet to find out if it did come from the same gun?
SGT. MAJ. ERIC HANEY, US ARMY (RET.): Well, an abdominal wound, so more than likely they will retrieve the bullet, I'm sure, during the surgery they already have. And it's away to the forensic people.
CALLAWAY: No, it has not been removed.
HANEY: OK.
CALLAWAY: We just found out from the hospital that he did -- undergo several hours of surgery, but they were unable to remove it. They hope to be able to go back in and remove that bullet. No way to trace this unless it isn't removed, right?
HANEY: Well, not that one. But by the fact -- if indeed the round was fired from the wooded area that was just off the edge of the parking lot of the Ponderosa, more than likely there's an ejected shell case, as there was at the school shooting.
CALLAWAY: Right.
HANEY: And if that case is there and the police find it, they'll be able to match that up.
CALLAWAY: Casey, let me ask you about just how this take place. As you have said, you don't want to say that it's not going to happen because indeed in this serial case, we've seen whatever we have said, well, we haven't seen a child shot, then we saw a child shot. We haven't seen any shootings on the weekend, now this could be a shooting on the weekend.
You're almost afraid to analyze this and make suggestions on what has not been done?
JORDAN: Right. And again, we hate to jump to conclusions, but it certainly does seem that the shooter or shooters pays attention the media, listens to what law enforcement is saying, listen to what the public is saying, and then proceeds with another shooting event that is almost a direct response.
We certainly saw that, of course, when Chief Moose proclaimed the schools were safe. They weren't an issue. They weren't a target.
CALLAWAY: Right.
JORDAN: Two days later, of course, we had a school shooting. Then of course we see a step up in terms of how congested the area is. The Home Depot is an extremely crowded place. It was a very difficult place for a getaway.
And of course, as we have seen police increase their surveillance, really step up their efforts at capture and put plans in place, we've seen again, assuming this is the D.C. area sniper, we've seen the geographic location moved tremendously south, perhaps as a rational response to the idea of I'm going to get outside of your perimeter.
CALLAWAY: Right. Because this is some 90 miles now from the D.C. area.
What we do know is that there have been 11 shootings. This shooting this weekend, of course we have said, has not been linked.
But Kelly, let me ask you, was this handled the way it should've been handled? You know, it's so difficult to in this incident. Maybe they weren't prepared for it to happen 90 miles away from the D.C. area, but we know that 95 was shut down. And so were the routes around there, I -- believe route 1 and 54. How difficult would it be to close in an area like this and do it quickly to see if there was a suspect in the area?
MCCANN: Under most normal circumstances, if this was transporting narcotics or something like that, I mean, it was done incredibly quickly. I mean, by all accounts, probably within seven minutes they had major arteries shut down.
However, when you're dealing with an individual shooter, who initially has a little bit of confusion at the scene and is able to exploit that, 2.5 minutes was the initial response.
Well, by that time, he could've withdrawn to the -- through the wooded area to the industrial area behind and been well on his way any number of decision points.
There are really two route 1, or 95. If you give him five more minutes, there are many other decision points. 295, 64, 301, route 30. So as time increases, exponentially the difficulty in grabbing him does as well.
CALLAWAY: I know that, Eric, you have said that you believe that there could be two shooters involved in this?
HANEY: Well, I'm quite convinced of that, yes. Without a doubt. One of them is pulling security. There is no way that that guy is going to leave a vehicle parked behind the wooded area unguarded, walk down, take a shot knowing -- not knowing how long he may well be there, and then just stumble back upon someone, back to this vehicle again.
That's the sort of scenario that will get you caught.
CALLAWAY: Casey, what do you think of that?
JORDAN: I think there is a lot of logic to what Eric is saying, because that's not my area of expertise, I also would consider the lone gunman theory as being something we should not rule out. And it also occurs to me that given how clever this particular shooter has been at evading police, I wouldn't rule out the idea that the shooter could be on foot, perhaps staying at a local hotel, perhaps just slinging the weapon over his shoulder and walking right out of the woods into the back door of a hotel where he might be staying.
CALLAWAY: Yes.
JORDAN: Not even in a car fleeing away.
CALLAWAY: I guess, Casey, the better question to you would be, because I know as you said that's not your expertise, but as a criminologist, does it fit the profile. I mean, do we have anything to look back on, and where there have been actually two people involved in some kind of serial shooting like this?
JORDAN: We've seen certainly partners work in spree shootings. There's no doubt about that, but most of those have been a violent outburst, over within minutes. Perhaps you might end up with a police standoff and stretch it into a few hours. But I mean, other than historic Bonnie and Clyde type of shooting sprees...
CALLAWAY: Right.
JORDAN: ...this has pretty much been the stuff of movies and novels. We have serial killers who work in pairs, but with a completely different modus operandi, more sexually motivated, not with a methodical God complex, power control issues.
CALLAWAY: Definitely control issues there.
Kelly, your thoughts on that?
MCCANN: In the U.S. doctrine of course, you do deploy scout sniper teams and rear security while the shooter's intent on his target and all of his concentration is there, the scout is watching for his immediate security.
The trouble is, is we don't know whether or not this person's a product of any of our schools or anything. And it's hard to package an aberrant personality and determine that there's one or two people based on that.
So I agree with Eric that the best way, of course, is to make sure that your security's taken care of, and all of that. But because we haven't seen him in action, no one has physically seen him, shoulder mount the weapon. Is his head on a swivel? Is he concerned about the back door? We don't know enough. And so, I'd be cautious to venture a guess.
CALLAWAY: As Kelly said, Eric, we don't know what kind of training this shooter has had, but you know, you're a retired sergeant major here. It seems as if this person would have to have some type of military training, or where could you get that kind of firearms training?
HANEY: He doesn't have great firearms training. He has a pedestrian shot. In fact, the shot last night shows that and he knows it. He's not very good. He doesn't even understand the trajectory of his rifle.
That's why we're winding up with some abdominal shots at a little bit longer range.
CALLAWAY: Oh, OK.
HANEY: Yes, so training? No, not training, but he's had a lot of practice and also they've had a lot of learning that they've gathered. And you can pull it off the Internet. You can buy the sniper manuals. These are a couple of wannabes. They're not all that good, but they're mighty clever in planning this and how they're going to get away.
CALLAWAY: You know, Kelly pointed out that they were able to shut this area down in say seven minutes. And while that does seem very quick, done very quickly, what can be done in that seven minutes? And how could this person assimilate into the community perhaps, instead of fleeing where you would not be suspicious of them?
HANEY: Well, again, if you have one taking the shot, and one that's doing security in the driving, that guy who's not involved in the shots, his adrenaline level is lot lower. So he can act more calmly.
Also don't get hung up on the white van on this one. There's no reason to have a van at this shooting. The van has been used as the cover and also muffles the gunshot. This -- you need a motorcycle and you could get away.
CALLAWAY: Now do you really believe there is a white van involved in this? Because I was thinking, as I was driving into work this morning, I passed two, and it was, you know, 2:30 in the morning.
HANEY: Exactly.
CALLAWAY: So there's so many of these white vans with ladders on top.
HANEY: When I visited the shooting areas in the D.C. region a week ago, we stood on the street in 30 seconds, counted six vans at any intersection. We could do it over and over and over again. So they are just ubiquitous, everywhere.
CALLAWAY: You know, you mentioned information on the Internet. Kelly, let me talk to you about this new Web site that we're seeing, called snipercountry.com. What are your thoughts and concerns about that?
MCCANN: Well, there's obviously communities out there, you know, that are interested in precision rifle shooting. There are also, you know, fraternal organizations of former and present snipers. And Eric's point is -- shouldn't be lost on anybody, which is you know, to be a sniper connotes that you know stalk -- you have stalking skills. You have advanced navigational skills. You basically are an observer and a reporter.
You have the ability to call and direct fire, etcetera. So it's a misnomer in a lot of respects to call this person a sniper. He's a murderer with a long gun.
As far as his proficiency goes, another good point Eric brought out was the trajectory of the round, if you zero the weapon where the line of sight converges where the strike of the round, based on where the shooter is, compared to where the victim is, the round can be 10 inches high, based on 50 yards to 350 yards with this particular caliber.
So we don't -- we simply don't know, you know, how much this guy has trained himself, how much he has learned through Internet references, etcetera in sites like that. But most of the people on those sites have legitimate interests.
CALLAWAY: And Kelly, you had a question that you wanted to ask Casey concerning that Web site, didn't you?
MCCANN: I did. Casey, I think it'd be interesting, how likely is it that he has cruised these Web sites? That this person has gone, you know, two different kinds of sites that have information that he would find valuable.
JORDAN: I think that the evidence, of course, indicating both -- especially based on your opinion and that of Eric, show that this is, of course, a wannabe, somebody on the fringe, somebody who would like to be a sniper, and is self-trained or experienced.
If that is the case, and I believe it is, then it would be extremely likely in my experience that the shooter might be perusing such Web sites, those sorts of magazines. We don't want to limit it to Web sites, but getting information from all the outside sources since it's less likely that he actually or they actually have direct experience with law enforcement or military.
We've certainly seen this with serial killers who have been so- called inspired by outside information, pornographic Web sites, for instance. And of course, we know that the Columbine shooters were very active on the Internet.
CALLAWAY: And Eric, let me ask you, how involved do you think perhaps the military, perhaps people like you who have experience and people like Casey and Kelly, are involved in this investigation? And it is now reached out of the D.C. area. So who all is involved in this? And can they give them more information to eventually catch this guy?
HANEY: Oh, well certainly they can. And I'm sure they've reached out to the Department of Defense for people with some expertise. There are a lot of them up in that area. Quantico Marine Corps base, that's where they train their own snipers.
CALLAWAY: Good point.
HANEY: And they're excellent shooters there. So there are a lot of good people involved in this. And you know, I'm sure that no one's resting.
CALLAWAY: Yes.
HANEY: Everyone's just hard at it. But this is a clever little clique. And at every case, all they have to do is be just good enough to get immediately out of the region, and blend in, after they've fired a shot on someone.
CALLAWAY: Kelly McCann, Casey Jordan, and Eric Haney, I know you're going to stay with us throughout the morning. And we appreciate that. Thank you for being with us this morning.
HANEY: Pleasure. ** SMITH: We have more now from CNN's Carol Costello for the latest on that sniper investigation from her location at the headquarters in Montgomery County, Maryland. Good morning, Carol.
COSTELLO: Good morning, again, Larry. And we assume that the Montgomery County sniper task force already on the way to Ashland, Virginia to meet with investigators there. It's about -- well it'll probably take about an hour and a half to get to Ashland, Virginia, the scene of this latest shooting.
And we're going to go right -- we're going to go there right now and check in again with Ed Lavandera. As you know, a 37-year old man was shot in the parking lot of a Ponderosa restaurant. And that's near where Ed is standing.
Ed, I want our viewers to get a clear view of the geography of this place. The Ponderosa restaurant is close to I-95. And there is a wooded area somewhere around that restaurant. Can you tell us how far away that is?
LAVANDERA: Well, interstate 95 is about -- is less than a half mile up the road this way. The Ponderosa steak house you see behind me. The crime tape here is across the street here. And the wooded area you're talking about is directly behind it. And the initial thinking here is that perhaps the shot might have come from somewhere in that area.
On east side of the Ponderosa restaurant here, there's a Burger King and a Wendy's restaurant as well. They're also looking into possibility that perhaps this is the thought -- the shot might have fired from somewhere behind those places as well
The 37-year old victim in this case was gunned down in the -- just behind this restaurant. So that's why they're looking at this area.
To give you an idea of what's going on here this morning now as the sunlight starts to break to the clouds here in Virginia in the last half hour, the police cadets here in Ashland are lining up. And as we've seen in several of the other shootings, they will begin to walk off the area, looking for any kind of clues, evidence, that might have been left behind at this crime scene.
So they will do that. And it's supposed to start at any -- at some point this morning. And we'll be able to bring you some footage of that at some point. We're trying to coordinate that as well with the authorities here.
Carol?
COSTELLO: Ed, another question, just to make sure that we all understand. We're looking at the front of the Ponderosa restaurant. The victim in this case walked out the back? Is that right? Am I reading it right?
LAVANDERA: Yes, that's...
COSTELLO: OK, the AP wire is reporting this morning that police believe the shooter was 100 yards away from the shooting scene itself. That would be different because most of these sniper shootings were 150 yards away. Can you tell us more about that?
LAVANDERA: Well, the distance, we don't know for sure exactly where the shot has come from at this point. There isn't 100 yards I wouldn't guess between the back of this restaurant and that wooded area. So perhaps that might lead authorities to look on either to the left or to the right restaurant as a possibility of where the shot was fired from, but that is exactly the kind of information they're going to try to lay out at this point.
And in most of the other cases, it's been -- authorities have been reluctant to release the exact yardage or distance that the shots were fired from in many of those cases.
But they do say that we've kind of heard estimates that ballpark figures as to where that might have happened.
COSTELLO: Right, and Ed, the other question I had is it's possible, if this is connected to the sniper shootings, that it hasn't been officially yet, but it is possible that police could find a shell casing in those woods. Are -- have they started searching for that kind of thing yet?
LAVANDERA: Well, that's exactly what's going to start happening here at some point this morning. They've got the police cadets that will begin walking off the area. The wooded area that's directly behind the restaurant is a large wooded area, very difficult to walk through, according to one of the officers that I was just speaking with here a little while ago.
So they will continue to look through that, as well as the rest of the parking lot area, as to, you know, these crime scenes, they rope off a very large area for precisely this reason, because the sniper has been attacking from such great distances that the crime scenes here are not just surrounded by where the victim of the shooting might be. So that's why they need to rope off a much larger area.
COSTELLO: Yes, and it looks like a pretty dense woods back there. It's nothing sparse.
LAVANDERA: I'm sorry?
COSTELLO: It just looks like the woods are pretty dense. So this will be a difficult task for police.
Ed Lavandera, I'm going to let you can get question police at the scene there. I want to head to Richmond now to the Medical College of Richmond and Patty Davis to check on the condition once again of this 37-year old victim.
He was shot in the stomach, right Patty?
DAVIS: That's right. He was shot in the stomach. And one piece of evidence that police don't have right now, which they normally would test in this case, is a bullet. Doctors did not retrieve a bullet from this victim. He underwent three hours of surgery. He came in here about 8:30 last night.
Hospital officials are saying that he is in critical but guarded condition. They're calling him a very sick man. They are saying he is not stable. And there is no prognosis about whether he will live or not. So obviously, very seriously wounded in this case. He's not being identified.
And you -- as you are aware, the two other victims of the sniper, we don't know if this one is connected or not, but the two victims of the sniper that have lived have also not been identified because they're considered witnesses.
So this man likewise not being identified. His wife, we're told, is at his side in the intensive care unit here at the hospital.
Carol?
COSTELLO: And Patty, do we know anything more about this man? We know he was not from the area. Do we know if he was just passing through and he may be from another state?
DAVIS: That's my understanding. We don't have information exactly where he was from, but we're told he was not from the area. He stopped at a Ponderosa for a bite to eat. I was also told that he had stopped to gas up. They were on their way through the area. Unfortunately, found themselves in some trouble in that parking lot.
And we're told no altercation in that parking lot. So it sounds -- it almost does sound like the sniper's MO, one single shot, no confrontation with the victim. Police, though, it'll be some time before they know what happened.
Carol?
COSTELLO: Yes, I was just wondering, and I don't know if you know the answer to this question and perhaps I should pose it to Ed, how close his wife was standing beside him when the shot was fired?
DAVIS: Yes, good question. I don't know. The one thing I did want to mention is the 13-year old victim in Bowie, Maryland, who was also shot in the abdomen, you recall that was probably a week or a week and a half ago. He was also shot in the abdomen, crumpled to the ground, was rushed to the hospitals. And doctors in that case were -- did, they made a special effort to retrieve a fragment of that bullet in that case, and were quickly able to connect that to this sniper.
In this case, his -- this man's injuries must have been so life threatening that they chose not to do that. So in this case, we're going to have to wait. We're told that he may undergo further surgery. They may have another opportunity to get at that bullet, and find out whether it is a .223, that high velocity round that this sniper is using or not.
And hopefully, you know, this man will be getting better, and he will serve as a witness and his wife also in this case. I don't know where his wife was standing with him at the time. Carol?
COSTELLO: All right, Patty Davis, thank you very much. And that boy, Bowie, the 13-year old is still in the hospital this morning. His condition has been upgraded. It looks like he's going to survive.
And the other victim that managed to survive was I believe a 47- year old woman. And she was released from the hospital.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired October 20, 2002 - 07:02 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY SMITH, CNN ANCHOR: Let's get right to it with the latest shooting details -- details on the shooting in Virginia, how the victim is doing, and what's next in the investigation.
We've got reporters covering all the angles for you. Ed Lavandera is in Richmond. In Ashland, actually, Patty Davis is in Richmond, but let's start though with CNN's Carol Costello who is in Montgomery County, Maryland, headquarters of the sniper investigation.
Good morning.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Larry.
Let me begin by saying if this is the work of the sniper, this would be the 13th shooting, the sixth that happened at night. And this would be the third victim who managed to survive the shooting. That 37-year old man was eating at a Ponderosa restaurant with his wife. He just pulled off the highway.
They were walking outside of the restaurant when the wife thought she heard a car backfire. She didn't even realize her husband had been shot until he turned around and said, "I've been shot."
He was rushed to the hospital. He was in surgery until 11:45 last night. That's Eastern time. He'd been shot in the stomach. He's still hanging in there.
As Larry told you, we have correspondents covering the story from every angle. We want to head out to Ashland, Virginia, which is about 90 miles south of the D.C. area to bring us up to date on what police know right now.
Ed?
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Carol, we are just across the roadway here. You can see behind me the Ponderosa steak house, where the shooting happened last night.
The 37-year old victim in this case was directly behind the restaurant. I don't know if it's hard to make out at this time of night, but you can see the wooded area. And at this point, investigators are looking into the possibility that perhaps the shot came from that wooded area.
There is a road that goes along back there, that perhaps provides some sort of in and out road for the shooter. But the initial details of this case eerily similar to the sniper shootings that have been going on in the D.C. area. And although this shooting hasn't been officially connected so far, the similarities are eerie.
One shot fired, an unsuspecting victim, and also an initial search for what authorities described as a white van with a ladder rack. And the search that pursued last night is very similar to what we've also seen in several of the recent shootings, as the task force in the D.C. area has a plan in effect that pretty much shuts down the roadways and sends up the search helicopters to try to trap this shooter, wherever he or see might be, or whoever they might be, as they try to get out of the area as well.
So we saw that last night, as I -- interstate 95 was basically shut down, authorities making their searches. They were able to get to the scene very quickly and shut down the roadways, but again, no chance of catching the sniper.
And again, the investigators will continue to work here as daylight comes up here, and be able to continue to work through that wooded area back there, and perhaps other areas of the parking lot behind the Ponderosa Steak house restaurant, and searching for clues this morning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FREDERIC PLEASANTS, CHIEF, ASHLAND, VA POLICE: The best evidence we have right now from the few witnesses we have, they believe the shot came from a wooded treeline directly behind these businesses that are on England Street.
But we do not have any thing more. I will emphasize once again we have been able to uncover no credible evidence or description of a suspect or a suspect vehicle.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LAVANDERA: And one other similarity is just the closeness that this restaurant is to a major thoroughfare. Interstate 95, just a half mile up the road this way, again, providing what could easily be an easy escape route for whoever the shooter might have been. That's another detail there that is eerily similar to several of the other -- many of the other shootings that have gone as well.
We understand authorities here in this county will be also meeting with the authorities in Montgomery County at 8:30. There's a press briefing scheduled for later this morning. Perhaps more information being released about this particular shooting later on this morning.
Carol, back to you.
COSTELLO: Ed, there's more than one escape route, too. That's near route 1 and route 54 as well?
LAVANDERA: Yes, this area provides probably a lot of that. And in driving around this area, also kind of provides you an idea of just how well someone might have to know this area to be able to pull that off as well, which again gets us back into many of the things we've been discussing over the last two weeks in regards to this case.
COSTELLO: Right, the other thing I wanted to ask you about was there more than witness that saw a white van fleeing the scene?
LAVANDERA: That was initially that's what authorities came out and were saying that. We've also heard our reporter, Gary Tuchman, who was out here throughout the evening was also saying that search for that white van with the ladder rack was put out there as well, just because of the -- so many of the details of this particular case were so similar to the other sniper shootings, that they felt that they needed to do that immediately, just to get everyone on the same page.
COSTELLO: The other question I had is police shut down I-95 from Washington all the way into Richmond. That's an 80 mile stretch. They searched as many vehicles as they could. This tactic doesn't seem to be working, does it?
LAVANDERA: It's seemingly such a daunting task. You know, I've seen this operated -- we've seen this operation go into effect several times. And they literally pull over each and every car, taking down license plate information, drivers license information. And in this particular case, it seemed to have gotten into place a lot faster, perhaps in some of the other ones from some of the initial reports that came out.
But again, there is no arrest to report. And that is frankly the most depressing part of everything.
COSTELLO: No, and you're not kidding. OK, Ed Lavandera. Thank you very much. We're going to get back to you throughout the morning.
We're going to head to the hospital right now, where this 37-year old victim, we hope is recovering. It's called the Medical College of Richmond. Patty Davis is there.
And Patty, I understand that the victim was actually talking to paramedics as he brought into the hospital?
PATTY DAVIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right. We are told that he was conscious when he arrived here. They rushed him to the hospital last night around 8:30 p.m. with a gunshot wound to his abdomen.
Now he underwent three hours of surgery, now fighting for his life in critical, but guarded condition in the intensive care unit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE KUTTENKULER, HOSPITAL SPOKESMAN: He's a 37-year old male. Came here. He was conscious when he arrived. And was immediately taken to the operating room. He was in the OR for about three hours. And he got out shortly after midnight, and he's in critical condition.
He's not stable. He's -- he has -- he's in very serious condition and being watched constantly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DAVIS: Now this man is not from the area. We're told he was passing through with his wife. He had stopped at that Ponderosa to get a bite to eat, also to gas up as the passed through the area. One critical, critical piece of evidence here that police have not been able to get their hands on, and that is the bullet.
In fact, doctors during that three hours of surgery did not retrieve the bullet from this man's body. He may undergo further surgery we are told. The may have another opportunity to get that bullet, but right now, that critical piece of information that in fact may connect this to the other sniper shootings is indeed inside this man's body, and will remain there until surgeons get another chance, if at all, to retrieve it -- Carol.
COSTELLO: Yes, and that could be the only piece of evidence that police find. It's just a sad story. I understand his wife is in there, very upset, of course, and by his side.
Patty Davis, thank you very much for bringing us up to date on this man's condition.
As you heard Ed Lavandera say, Larry, there is a news conference scheduled with the Ashland police and the Hanover County Sheriff's Department. That will take place at 10:00. The Montgomery County Task Force will meet with those departments at about 8:30 Eastern time this morning.
Back to you, Larry.
SMITH: OK, Carol, thanks.
I do have one question for Patty Davis as the hospital there in Richmond. Patty, you mentioned that the bullet was not removed. The patient's condition right now, is he still in danger of his life?
DAVIS: Well yes, critical but guarded condition. That means that his injuries are life threatening. And critical but guarded condition, we just got an update he remains in that condition. We are told by the hospital they are not going to be giving any press conferences here. So any information we get is going to be out of police.
Back to you, Larry.
SMITH: OK, Patty Davis in Richmond, Ed Lavandera in Ashland, and Carol Costello, Montgomery County, Maryland. Thanks so much for your reports.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CATHERINE CALLAWAY, CNN ANCHOR: We're going to turn their experts this morning for their take on this latest incident. Joining us from Washington, CNN security analyst Kelly McCann and in New York, CNN's criminologist Casey Jordan. And here in Atlanta, joining us, CNN firearms analyst, retired Sergeant Major Eric Haney.
Thank you all three for being with us this morning.
Casey, let me start with you. What is your take on this? We now have a shooting, if this is indeed connected to the sniper, that has occurred on the weekend. And before, this hadn't happened?
CASEY JORDAN, CNN CRIMINOLOGIST: Well, I always said that just like one robin doesn't make spring, two event free weekends doesn't really make a pattern either. The biggest thing that we have always noted about these shooting events is that there is not pattern. And as soon as we proclaimed that we think we have one figured out, the shooter likes to prove us wrong.
So even though it was an extremely unpleasant surprise to find out there have been yet another shooting, and we have yet to conclusively link this shooting to the D.C. area sniper, I think all initial evidence indicates that it must be the sniper or a very good copycat.
CALLAWAY: Kelly, what is your take on this? What is similar and not similar in this case in your opinion?
KELLY MCCANN, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: There are three similarities, Catherine one of which is there was no personal relationship or other motivation for the shooting to take place. There was no previous argument. There wasn't a road rage kind of thing, etcetera. So there couldn't have been, you know, a predictability of it.
Lastly, the whole point of the randomness of it. Here's a traveler. So there couldn't have been a time and place predictable element where someone was laying in wait for this guy. So those elements right there would point to the engagement of a total stranger.
CALLAWAY: Eric, let's ask you about the shooting itself. We know that the bullet has been lodged into this 37-year old gentleman. They haven't been able to retrieve that. How difficult is it going to be if they're not able to retrieve that bullet to find out if it did come from the same gun?
SGT. MAJ. ERIC HANEY, US ARMY (RET.): Well, an abdominal wound, so more than likely they will retrieve the bullet, I'm sure, during the surgery they already have. And it's away to the forensic people.
CALLAWAY: No, it has not been removed.
HANEY: OK.
CALLAWAY: We just found out from the hospital that he did -- undergo several hours of surgery, but they were unable to remove it. They hope to be able to go back in and remove that bullet. No way to trace this unless it isn't removed, right?
HANEY: Well, not that one. But by the fact -- if indeed the round was fired from the wooded area that was just off the edge of the parking lot of the Ponderosa, more than likely there's an ejected shell case, as there was at the school shooting.
CALLAWAY: Right.
HANEY: And if that case is there and the police find it, they'll be able to match that up.
CALLAWAY: Casey, let me ask you about just how this take place. As you have said, you don't want to say that it's not going to happen because indeed in this serial case, we've seen whatever we have said, well, we haven't seen a child shot, then we saw a child shot. We haven't seen any shootings on the weekend, now this could be a shooting on the weekend.
You're almost afraid to analyze this and make suggestions on what has not been done?
JORDAN: Right. And again, we hate to jump to conclusions, but it certainly does seem that the shooter or shooters pays attention the media, listens to what law enforcement is saying, listen to what the public is saying, and then proceeds with another shooting event that is almost a direct response.
We certainly saw that, of course, when Chief Moose proclaimed the schools were safe. They weren't an issue. They weren't a target.
CALLAWAY: Right.
JORDAN: Two days later, of course, we had a school shooting. Then of course we see a step up in terms of how congested the area is. The Home Depot is an extremely crowded place. It was a very difficult place for a getaway.
And of course, as we have seen police increase their surveillance, really step up their efforts at capture and put plans in place, we've seen again, assuming this is the D.C. area sniper, we've seen the geographic location moved tremendously south, perhaps as a rational response to the idea of I'm going to get outside of your perimeter.
CALLAWAY: Right. Because this is some 90 miles now from the D.C. area.
What we do know is that there have been 11 shootings. This shooting this weekend, of course we have said, has not been linked.
But Kelly, let me ask you, was this handled the way it should've been handled? You know, it's so difficult to in this incident. Maybe they weren't prepared for it to happen 90 miles away from the D.C. area, but we know that 95 was shut down. And so were the routes around there, I -- believe route 1 and 54. How difficult would it be to close in an area like this and do it quickly to see if there was a suspect in the area?
MCCANN: Under most normal circumstances, if this was transporting narcotics or something like that, I mean, it was done incredibly quickly. I mean, by all accounts, probably within seven minutes they had major arteries shut down.
However, when you're dealing with an individual shooter, who initially has a little bit of confusion at the scene and is able to exploit that, 2.5 minutes was the initial response.
Well, by that time, he could've withdrawn to the -- through the wooded area to the industrial area behind and been well on his way any number of decision points.
There are really two route 1, or 95. If you give him five more minutes, there are many other decision points. 295, 64, 301, route 30. So as time increases, exponentially the difficulty in grabbing him does as well.
CALLAWAY: I know that, Eric, you have said that you believe that there could be two shooters involved in this?
HANEY: Well, I'm quite convinced of that, yes. Without a doubt. One of them is pulling security. There is no way that that guy is going to leave a vehicle parked behind the wooded area unguarded, walk down, take a shot knowing -- not knowing how long he may well be there, and then just stumble back upon someone, back to this vehicle again.
That's the sort of scenario that will get you caught.
CALLAWAY: Casey, what do you think of that?
JORDAN: I think there is a lot of logic to what Eric is saying, because that's not my area of expertise, I also would consider the lone gunman theory as being something we should not rule out. And it also occurs to me that given how clever this particular shooter has been at evading police, I wouldn't rule out the idea that the shooter could be on foot, perhaps staying at a local hotel, perhaps just slinging the weapon over his shoulder and walking right out of the woods into the back door of a hotel where he might be staying.
CALLAWAY: Yes.
JORDAN: Not even in a car fleeing away.
CALLAWAY: I guess, Casey, the better question to you would be, because I know as you said that's not your expertise, but as a criminologist, does it fit the profile. I mean, do we have anything to look back on, and where there have been actually two people involved in some kind of serial shooting like this?
JORDAN: We've seen certainly partners work in spree shootings. There's no doubt about that, but most of those have been a violent outburst, over within minutes. Perhaps you might end up with a police standoff and stretch it into a few hours. But I mean, other than historic Bonnie and Clyde type of shooting sprees...
CALLAWAY: Right.
JORDAN: ...this has pretty much been the stuff of movies and novels. We have serial killers who work in pairs, but with a completely different modus operandi, more sexually motivated, not with a methodical God complex, power control issues.
CALLAWAY: Definitely control issues there.
Kelly, your thoughts on that?
MCCANN: In the U.S. doctrine of course, you do deploy scout sniper teams and rear security while the shooter's intent on his target and all of his concentration is there, the scout is watching for his immediate security.
The trouble is, is we don't know whether or not this person's a product of any of our schools or anything. And it's hard to package an aberrant personality and determine that there's one or two people based on that.
So I agree with Eric that the best way, of course, is to make sure that your security's taken care of, and all of that. But because we haven't seen him in action, no one has physically seen him, shoulder mount the weapon. Is his head on a swivel? Is he concerned about the back door? We don't know enough. And so, I'd be cautious to venture a guess.
CALLAWAY: As Kelly said, Eric, we don't know what kind of training this shooter has had, but you know, you're a retired sergeant major here. It seems as if this person would have to have some type of military training, or where could you get that kind of firearms training?
HANEY: He doesn't have great firearms training. He has a pedestrian shot. In fact, the shot last night shows that and he knows it. He's not very good. He doesn't even understand the trajectory of his rifle.
That's why we're winding up with some abdominal shots at a little bit longer range.
CALLAWAY: Oh, OK.
HANEY: Yes, so training? No, not training, but he's had a lot of practice and also they've had a lot of learning that they've gathered. And you can pull it off the Internet. You can buy the sniper manuals. These are a couple of wannabes. They're not all that good, but they're mighty clever in planning this and how they're going to get away.
CALLAWAY: You know, Kelly pointed out that they were able to shut this area down in say seven minutes. And while that does seem very quick, done very quickly, what can be done in that seven minutes? And how could this person assimilate into the community perhaps, instead of fleeing where you would not be suspicious of them?
HANEY: Well, again, if you have one taking the shot, and one that's doing security in the driving, that guy who's not involved in the shots, his adrenaline level is lot lower. So he can act more calmly.
Also don't get hung up on the white van on this one. There's no reason to have a van at this shooting. The van has been used as the cover and also muffles the gunshot. This -- you need a motorcycle and you could get away.
CALLAWAY: Now do you really believe there is a white van involved in this? Because I was thinking, as I was driving into work this morning, I passed two, and it was, you know, 2:30 in the morning.
HANEY: Exactly.
CALLAWAY: So there's so many of these white vans with ladders on top.
HANEY: When I visited the shooting areas in the D.C. region a week ago, we stood on the street in 30 seconds, counted six vans at any intersection. We could do it over and over and over again. So they are just ubiquitous, everywhere.
CALLAWAY: You know, you mentioned information on the Internet. Kelly, let me talk to you about this new Web site that we're seeing, called snipercountry.com. What are your thoughts and concerns about that?
MCCANN: Well, there's obviously communities out there, you know, that are interested in precision rifle shooting. There are also, you know, fraternal organizations of former and present snipers. And Eric's point is -- shouldn't be lost on anybody, which is you know, to be a sniper connotes that you know stalk -- you have stalking skills. You have advanced navigational skills. You basically are an observer and a reporter.
You have the ability to call and direct fire, etcetera. So it's a misnomer in a lot of respects to call this person a sniper. He's a murderer with a long gun.
As far as his proficiency goes, another good point Eric brought out was the trajectory of the round, if you zero the weapon where the line of sight converges where the strike of the round, based on where the shooter is, compared to where the victim is, the round can be 10 inches high, based on 50 yards to 350 yards with this particular caliber.
So we don't -- we simply don't know, you know, how much this guy has trained himself, how much he has learned through Internet references, etcetera in sites like that. But most of the people on those sites have legitimate interests.
CALLAWAY: And Kelly, you had a question that you wanted to ask Casey concerning that Web site, didn't you?
MCCANN: I did. Casey, I think it'd be interesting, how likely is it that he has cruised these Web sites? That this person has gone, you know, two different kinds of sites that have information that he would find valuable.
JORDAN: I think that the evidence, of course, indicating both -- especially based on your opinion and that of Eric, show that this is, of course, a wannabe, somebody on the fringe, somebody who would like to be a sniper, and is self-trained or experienced.
If that is the case, and I believe it is, then it would be extremely likely in my experience that the shooter might be perusing such Web sites, those sorts of magazines. We don't want to limit it to Web sites, but getting information from all the outside sources since it's less likely that he actually or they actually have direct experience with law enforcement or military.
We've certainly seen this with serial killers who have been so- called inspired by outside information, pornographic Web sites, for instance. And of course, we know that the Columbine shooters were very active on the Internet.
CALLAWAY: And Eric, let me ask you, how involved do you think perhaps the military, perhaps people like you who have experience and people like Casey and Kelly, are involved in this investigation? And it is now reached out of the D.C. area. So who all is involved in this? And can they give them more information to eventually catch this guy?
HANEY: Oh, well certainly they can. And I'm sure they've reached out to the Department of Defense for people with some expertise. There are a lot of them up in that area. Quantico Marine Corps base, that's where they train their own snipers.
CALLAWAY: Good point.
HANEY: And they're excellent shooters there. So there are a lot of good people involved in this. And you know, I'm sure that no one's resting.
CALLAWAY: Yes.
HANEY: Everyone's just hard at it. But this is a clever little clique. And at every case, all they have to do is be just good enough to get immediately out of the region, and blend in, after they've fired a shot on someone.
CALLAWAY: Kelly McCann, Casey Jordan, and Eric Haney, I know you're going to stay with us throughout the morning. And we appreciate that. Thank you for being with us this morning.
HANEY: Pleasure. ** SMITH: We have more now from CNN's Carol Costello for the latest on that sniper investigation from her location at the headquarters in Montgomery County, Maryland. Good morning, Carol.
COSTELLO: Good morning, again, Larry. And we assume that the Montgomery County sniper task force already on the way to Ashland, Virginia to meet with investigators there. It's about -- well it'll probably take about an hour and a half to get to Ashland, Virginia, the scene of this latest shooting.
And we're going to go right -- we're going to go there right now and check in again with Ed Lavandera. As you know, a 37-year old man was shot in the parking lot of a Ponderosa restaurant. And that's near where Ed is standing.
Ed, I want our viewers to get a clear view of the geography of this place. The Ponderosa restaurant is close to I-95. And there is a wooded area somewhere around that restaurant. Can you tell us how far away that is?
LAVANDERA: Well, interstate 95 is about -- is less than a half mile up the road this way. The Ponderosa steak house you see behind me. The crime tape here is across the street here. And the wooded area you're talking about is directly behind it. And the initial thinking here is that perhaps the shot might have come from somewhere in that area.
On east side of the Ponderosa restaurant here, there's a Burger King and a Wendy's restaurant as well. They're also looking into possibility that perhaps this is the thought -- the shot might have fired from somewhere behind those places as well
The 37-year old victim in this case was gunned down in the -- just behind this restaurant. So that's why they're looking at this area.
To give you an idea of what's going on here this morning now as the sunlight starts to break to the clouds here in Virginia in the last half hour, the police cadets here in Ashland are lining up. And as we've seen in several of the other shootings, they will begin to walk off the area, looking for any kind of clues, evidence, that might have been left behind at this crime scene.
So they will do that. And it's supposed to start at any -- at some point this morning. And we'll be able to bring you some footage of that at some point. We're trying to coordinate that as well with the authorities here.
Carol?
COSTELLO: Ed, another question, just to make sure that we all understand. We're looking at the front of the Ponderosa restaurant. The victim in this case walked out the back? Is that right? Am I reading it right?
LAVANDERA: Yes, that's...
COSTELLO: OK, the AP wire is reporting this morning that police believe the shooter was 100 yards away from the shooting scene itself. That would be different because most of these sniper shootings were 150 yards away. Can you tell us more about that?
LAVANDERA: Well, the distance, we don't know for sure exactly where the shot has come from at this point. There isn't 100 yards I wouldn't guess between the back of this restaurant and that wooded area. So perhaps that might lead authorities to look on either to the left or to the right restaurant as a possibility of where the shot was fired from, but that is exactly the kind of information they're going to try to lay out at this point.
And in most of the other cases, it's been -- authorities have been reluctant to release the exact yardage or distance that the shots were fired from in many of those cases.
But they do say that we've kind of heard estimates that ballpark figures as to where that might have happened.
COSTELLO: Right, and Ed, the other question I had is it's possible, if this is connected to the sniper shootings, that it hasn't been officially yet, but it is possible that police could find a shell casing in those woods. Are -- have they started searching for that kind of thing yet?
LAVANDERA: Well, that's exactly what's going to start happening here at some point this morning. They've got the police cadets that will begin walking off the area. The wooded area that's directly behind the restaurant is a large wooded area, very difficult to walk through, according to one of the officers that I was just speaking with here a little while ago.
So they will continue to look through that, as well as the rest of the parking lot area, as to, you know, these crime scenes, they rope off a very large area for precisely this reason, because the sniper has been attacking from such great distances that the crime scenes here are not just surrounded by where the victim of the shooting might be. So that's why they need to rope off a much larger area.
COSTELLO: Yes, and it looks like a pretty dense woods back there. It's nothing sparse.
LAVANDERA: I'm sorry?
COSTELLO: It just looks like the woods are pretty dense. So this will be a difficult task for police.
Ed Lavandera, I'm going to let you can get question police at the scene there. I want to head to Richmond now to the Medical College of Richmond and Patty Davis to check on the condition once again of this 37-year old victim.
He was shot in the stomach, right Patty?
DAVIS: That's right. He was shot in the stomach. And one piece of evidence that police don't have right now, which they normally would test in this case, is a bullet. Doctors did not retrieve a bullet from this victim. He underwent three hours of surgery. He came in here about 8:30 last night.
Hospital officials are saying that he is in critical but guarded condition. They're calling him a very sick man. They are saying he is not stable. And there is no prognosis about whether he will live or not. So obviously, very seriously wounded in this case. He's not being identified.
And you -- as you are aware, the two other victims of the sniper, we don't know if this one is connected or not, but the two victims of the sniper that have lived have also not been identified because they're considered witnesses.
So this man likewise not being identified. His wife, we're told, is at his side in the intensive care unit here at the hospital.
Carol?
COSTELLO: And Patty, do we know anything more about this man? We know he was not from the area. Do we know if he was just passing through and he may be from another state?
DAVIS: That's my understanding. We don't have information exactly where he was from, but we're told he was not from the area. He stopped at a Ponderosa for a bite to eat. I was also told that he had stopped to gas up. They were on their way through the area. Unfortunately, found themselves in some trouble in that parking lot.
And we're told no altercation in that parking lot. So it sounds -- it almost does sound like the sniper's MO, one single shot, no confrontation with the victim. Police, though, it'll be some time before they know what happened.
Carol?
COSTELLO: Yes, I was just wondering, and I don't know if you know the answer to this question and perhaps I should pose it to Ed, how close his wife was standing beside him when the shot was fired?
DAVIS: Yes, good question. I don't know. The one thing I did want to mention is the 13-year old victim in Bowie, Maryland, who was also shot in the abdomen, you recall that was probably a week or a week and a half ago. He was also shot in the abdomen, crumpled to the ground, was rushed to the hospitals. And doctors in that case were -- did, they made a special effort to retrieve a fragment of that bullet in that case, and were quickly able to connect that to this sniper.
In this case, his -- this man's injuries must have been so life threatening that they chose not to do that. So in this case, we're going to have to wait. We're told that he may undergo further surgery. They may have another opportunity to get at that bullet, and find out whether it is a .223, that high velocity round that this sniper is using or not.
And hopefully, you know, this man will be getting better, and he will serve as a witness and his wife also in this case. I don't know where his wife was standing with him at the time. Carol?
COSTELLO: All right, Patty Davis, thank you very much. And that boy, Bowie, the 13-year old is still in the hospital this morning. His condition has been upgraded. It looks like he's going to survive.
And the other victim that managed to survive was I believe a 47- year old woman. And she was released from the hospital.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
