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CNN Sunday Morning
Sniper on the Loose, Part IV
Aired October 20, 2002 - 10:36 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: We want to continue our coverage now on the sniper investigation as we await a press conference out of Virginia. We want to go now to Carol Costello who is in Montgomery County, Maryland. And still in Montgomery County, Maryland, because that is still sort of the critical area of this multi-jurisdictional task force, still originating out of the Montgomery County area, and many of those investigators have made their way to Virginia. Carol, what is happening there now?
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we believe the teleconference is wrapping up between the differing authorities involved in this investigation, and soon there will be that press conference out in Ashland, Virginia. It will take place around 11:00 Eastern time, at least we hope. It could be later, it could be earlier, but when it happens, CNN will, of course, cover it live.
You know, if this shooting is connected to the sniper, this 37- year-old man will be the sniper's 12th victim. That would mean 13 shootings in all, and it would introduce a new crime scene, a crime scene far from the Washington, D.C. area, 80 miles south of there.
Let's go there right now and check in with Ed Lavandera, where police are searching the scene, seeking any possible clues. Ed, bring us up to date.
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's what they continue to do here in Ashland, Virginia, just behind the restaurant where the 37-year-old man and his wife were walking out of last night. There are ATF agents, police cadets, FBI agents as well working the parking lot. It's kind of hard to see from our vantage point down here, because the terrain kind of slopes down toward the bottom of that wooded area, so a lot of the people you see working down there are just beyond, just below your line of site down there. But trust us, they are there, we have been seen them throughout the morning, and that's where they continue to focus their investigation because that's where they think the shot was fired.
The 37-year-old man and his wife who were walking out of the back of the restaurant over there and they were walking towards their car, and that's when the shooting happened last night. So that's why they're focusing so much attention on that part of the building here.
The crowd of reporters here starting to gather rather strongly here. Waiting for the press conference to begin. We are told it could happen at any time. Carol, as you mentioned, the teleconference, last we heard, was still going on. It would be at least another 10, 15 minutes before the authorities here in Ashland, Virginia would be able to make their way back to this site to be able to conduct that press briefing -- Carol.
COSTELLO: There in Ashland, Virginia, let's talk more about that wooded area behind the restaurant. We are hearing reports that the shot came about 100 feet from the parking lot. That's fairly close, especially if it is the sniper -- if the sniper is to blame, this is much closer than in the other shootings that he's responsible for.
LAVANDERA: And that's part of the -- you know, the work they are doing now is just to calculate how far away or how close in this case, did the shooter might have been. And that's why they also roped off such a large area. Not only have they roped off the area around the Ponderosa restaurant, but the two buildings on each side of it. They've taped off as a crime area as well. And you see authorities kind of walking the grounds and through the parking lot as well, perhaps, looking for any kind of escape route that the shooter might have used to get away from this area last night when it became so hectic around here.
COSTELLO: All right, Ed Lavandera, thanks for the update. We will await that news conference sometime around 11:00 Eastern time. I want to head now to Richmond, Virginia, where that 37-year-old man is still struggling for his life and check back in with Patty Davis. Do we know when he is going to go back into surgery, Patty?
PATTY DAVIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: No, we don't know, but a hospital spokeswomen did say a short time ago that additional surgery is likely today. This victim is fighting for his life. A spokesperson saying no prognosis on whether he will survive or not. Critical but guarded condition, extensive injuries from that gunshot wound to the abdomen. Also lots of internal bleeding.
Now, surgeons say -- or police say that surgeons did not retrieve a bullet in that first surgery that took place last night about 9:00 o'clock, that surgery taking three hours. Hopefully they will, in any subsequent surgery, be able to retrieve a fragment, at least, of the bullet.
Now, his wife remains with him, and is he in intensive care.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hospital staff tells me she is a very brave woman. She is by his side, and she is just acting extremely brave.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DAVIS: Obviously a very difficult time for her. The bullet could be the crucial piece of evidence that police are looking for, and that may end up connecting this to the sniper, making this -- Carol, as you said, perhaps the 12th victim. It's something we just don't know yet. Police hoping that they will be able to either establish a link here or rule that out if they get a bullet fragment -- Carol. COSTELLO: Something interesting about that bullet that came over the wire, Patty. And I want to read it for our audience right now. This is a quote from Dr. Paul B. Ferrar (ph), who is the director of Virginia's Division of Forensic Science. He says: "It may be possible at least to determine whether the bullet was the same size," a .223 caliber bullet, which is what the sniper is supposedly fired, that was used. He says: "It depends on the condition of the bullet and how badly fragmented it is. Sometimes a firearms expert can assess or approximate the caliber of the weapon by looking at X-rays from different angles and get an idea of the dimensions of the bullet without it being removed."
So there is a chance police may be able to use that bullet. We just don't know yet, of course.
DAVIS: That's really interesting. And I'm sure that's something that the surgeons will be looking at here, if they're not able to take pieces of the bullet out.
Of course, their first priority is to keep this man alive. They're doing everything they can right now. If they have an opportunity to get part of the bullet, they will. And like you said, it sounds like an intriguing possibility, a possible X-ray to determine whether or not the bullet fragments are .223, that high- velocity round that this sniper is using. So we will have to see if they will have to resort to that, Carol.
COSTELLO: All right, thank you, Patty Davis, for the update from Richmond, Virginia.
And Fredricka, there is no news conference scheduled here for Montgomery Count, because of course, the sniper task force is in Ashland, Virginia, and that is where the latest news conference will take place somewhere around 11:00 Eastern time.
WHITFIELD: All right, thanks very much, Carol, and of course, we're going to be bringing that to you live as it happens out of Ashland, Virginia.
We are going to take a short break for now. When we come back, we are going to evaluate the methods of this sniper, at least what we know of them so far. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: If last night's shooting near Richmond, Virginia are related, then this will be the furthest from the D.C. metro area the sniper has struck since the shootings began October 2. CNN criminologist Casey Jordon studies homicide trends and the patterns of serial killings, and she is with us now. Good to see you, Casey.
CASEY JORDAN, CNN CRIMINOLOGIST: Good to see you, Fredricka.
WHITFIELD: All right. If indeed this shooting last night is related we are talking about a shooting that took place about 50 miles north of Richmond, 90 miles south of the Washington, D.C. area. How would you explain this very different geographical pattern, if indeed this were the same shooter?
JORDAN: Well, on the surface, it may look inconsistent since most of the shootings were in the D.C. area, and that if you think about it from the big picture, it's highly consistent, because it would represent displacement of the crime to a new area as a reaction to the increased presence and attention of law enforcement in the D.C. area.
Ever since Monday night's shooting of Linda Franklin, we have seen a tremendous upsurge of police interest and planning in terms of what they are going to do after the next event, if this indeed is the next event. And of course, the discussion of Pentagon technology. So it's only logical that the shooter would actually displace to a new location. The shootings had already been meandering southward. So this doesn't surprise me at all if it turns out to be the work of the D.C. area sniper.
WHITFIELD: And we've been talking about this morning, even with other analysts, who say the other similarities they see, though, even though this is far outside the perimeter of that geographical profile based on the other 11 shootings, what is similar is that this, too, would take place just short off of an exit off perhaps 95 or Route 1 in this case as well.
JORDAN: Absolutely. That is one of the consistent factors, is that there has always been some very carefully planned escape routes. Again, we call that the permeability of the neighborhood. A person who is getting away with these kinds of crimes is not doing so accidentally. He or they case the area very carefully, have a getaway plan, maybe even plans, "A", "B", "C," just in case they encounter some obstacles. And to be near a number of different alternatives, not just near I-95 but to have other choices is very key in the decision-making process of where they strike.
WHITFIELD: Others have said that they are certain, almost certain that this is the work of a pair or at least a group. But wouldn't you think at this juncture, two weeks now of this spate of shootings, if it were a pair or a group, there would be some bragging going on, because that often is what foils an operation like that?
JORDAN: Fredricka, that's precisely why I do discount the pair theory. And I don't discount it entirely. I'm almost a 50/50 split on the lone gunman versus the pair theory. And Eric makes some excellent points about why he believes it's a pair. And they all make sense to me, but I tend to stick with the lone gunman theory for exactly the reasons you brought up, because your conspiracy is only as strong as its weakest link. It may sound like a cute little quip, but it's very true.
When there are two people involved, one of them could easily prove to be the weak link. Screw up the plan, start bragging too much. Need a little bit more from the counterpart than they're willing to give, or one person could simply fall pray to a lure of half-million-dollars and decide to drop the dime on his or her partner. WHITFIELD: And something that's interesting too, and perhaps it's one of the reasons why you mentioned Eric Haney who was with me just about 10 minutes ago. While he believes that it may be the work of a group or individuals, and others agree with him as well, something that also strikes me as unusual is that you've got almost half and half now of these victims shot either in the abdominal area or in the head. And perhaps if it were the work of one person, he may be aiming for the same area of the body every time, but we're not seeing that in this case. It's about half-and-half so far.
JORDAN: You're right. But there are a number of different variables that could account for that that have nothing to do with the idea that it could be more than one shooter. A lot of it could simply do with visibility, issues of lighting, issues of fog, issues of obstacles in the way, or proximity to the victim. So just because they are missing the torso, if that is indeed exactly where the sniper is aiming every time, it doesn't mean that it's two different shooters. It could be due to a variety of different reasons.
WHITFIELD: And as we evaluate these shooting, at least the 11 confirmed shootings, outside of what took place last night, because once again, we really do not know if there is a connection being drawn with the shooting taking place just outside of Richmond, but weather, apparently, is not really a factor as this is happening. We are seeing different variations of light. We are seeing that a couple of the shootings took place when there was fog, when there was rain, and when it was perfectly clear out.
JORDAN: Absolutely.
WHITFIELD: So how do you assess this, if at all? When you try to look at all the variables or all the commonalities about these shootings, do you strike out whether -- as perhaps being an indicator of this person's level of expertise in shooting?
JORDAN: I think that it's more an underscoring of what so many people have been saying all along. And I hate to sound like a broken record, but the pattern is the randomness. If you have a person who only shoots on a particular day of the week, only on a particular time of the day, only during particular weather or particular type of victims, these are the things that make them so easy to catch. And because the shooter or shooters is mixing it up -- really, every time we think we see a pattern, they prove to us that there is no pattern, that is a tremendous explanation or reason why they continue to evade police capture.
WHITFIELD: All right, criminologist Casey Jordan. Thank you very much. Always good to talk to you.
JORDAN: Great talking to you, Fredricka.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired October 20, 2002 - 10:36 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: We want to continue our coverage now on the sniper investigation as we await a press conference out of Virginia. We want to go now to Carol Costello who is in Montgomery County, Maryland. And still in Montgomery County, Maryland, because that is still sort of the critical area of this multi-jurisdictional task force, still originating out of the Montgomery County area, and many of those investigators have made their way to Virginia. Carol, what is happening there now?
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we believe the teleconference is wrapping up between the differing authorities involved in this investigation, and soon there will be that press conference out in Ashland, Virginia. It will take place around 11:00 Eastern time, at least we hope. It could be later, it could be earlier, but when it happens, CNN will, of course, cover it live.
You know, if this shooting is connected to the sniper, this 37- year-old man will be the sniper's 12th victim. That would mean 13 shootings in all, and it would introduce a new crime scene, a crime scene far from the Washington, D.C. area, 80 miles south of there.
Let's go there right now and check in with Ed Lavandera, where police are searching the scene, seeking any possible clues. Ed, bring us up to date.
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's what they continue to do here in Ashland, Virginia, just behind the restaurant where the 37-year-old man and his wife were walking out of last night. There are ATF agents, police cadets, FBI agents as well working the parking lot. It's kind of hard to see from our vantage point down here, because the terrain kind of slopes down toward the bottom of that wooded area, so a lot of the people you see working down there are just beyond, just below your line of site down there. But trust us, they are there, we have been seen them throughout the morning, and that's where they continue to focus their investigation because that's where they think the shot was fired.
The 37-year-old man and his wife who were walking out of the back of the restaurant over there and they were walking towards their car, and that's when the shooting happened last night. So that's why they're focusing so much attention on that part of the building here.
The crowd of reporters here starting to gather rather strongly here. Waiting for the press conference to begin. We are told it could happen at any time. Carol, as you mentioned, the teleconference, last we heard, was still going on. It would be at least another 10, 15 minutes before the authorities here in Ashland, Virginia would be able to make their way back to this site to be able to conduct that press briefing -- Carol.
COSTELLO: There in Ashland, Virginia, let's talk more about that wooded area behind the restaurant. We are hearing reports that the shot came about 100 feet from the parking lot. That's fairly close, especially if it is the sniper -- if the sniper is to blame, this is much closer than in the other shootings that he's responsible for.
LAVANDERA: And that's part of the -- you know, the work they are doing now is just to calculate how far away or how close in this case, did the shooter might have been. And that's why they also roped off such a large area. Not only have they roped off the area around the Ponderosa restaurant, but the two buildings on each side of it. They've taped off as a crime area as well. And you see authorities kind of walking the grounds and through the parking lot as well, perhaps, looking for any kind of escape route that the shooter might have used to get away from this area last night when it became so hectic around here.
COSTELLO: All right, Ed Lavandera, thanks for the update. We will await that news conference sometime around 11:00 Eastern time. I want to head now to Richmond, Virginia, where that 37-year-old man is still struggling for his life and check back in with Patty Davis. Do we know when he is going to go back into surgery, Patty?
PATTY DAVIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: No, we don't know, but a hospital spokeswomen did say a short time ago that additional surgery is likely today. This victim is fighting for his life. A spokesperson saying no prognosis on whether he will survive or not. Critical but guarded condition, extensive injuries from that gunshot wound to the abdomen. Also lots of internal bleeding.
Now, surgeons say -- or police say that surgeons did not retrieve a bullet in that first surgery that took place last night about 9:00 o'clock, that surgery taking three hours. Hopefully they will, in any subsequent surgery, be able to retrieve a fragment, at least, of the bullet.
Now, his wife remains with him, and is he in intensive care.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hospital staff tells me she is a very brave woman. She is by his side, and she is just acting extremely brave.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DAVIS: Obviously a very difficult time for her. The bullet could be the crucial piece of evidence that police are looking for, and that may end up connecting this to the sniper, making this -- Carol, as you said, perhaps the 12th victim. It's something we just don't know yet. Police hoping that they will be able to either establish a link here or rule that out if they get a bullet fragment -- Carol. COSTELLO: Something interesting about that bullet that came over the wire, Patty. And I want to read it for our audience right now. This is a quote from Dr. Paul B. Ferrar (ph), who is the director of Virginia's Division of Forensic Science. He says: "It may be possible at least to determine whether the bullet was the same size," a .223 caliber bullet, which is what the sniper is supposedly fired, that was used. He says: "It depends on the condition of the bullet and how badly fragmented it is. Sometimes a firearms expert can assess or approximate the caliber of the weapon by looking at X-rays from different angles and get an idea of the dimensions of the bullet without it being removed."
So there is a chance police may be able to use that bullet. We just don't know yet, of course.
DAVIS: That's really interesting. And I'm sure that's something that the surgeons will be looking at here, if they're not able to take pieces of the bullet out.
Of course, their first priority is to keep this man alive. They're doing everything they can right now. If they have an opportunity to get part of the bullet, they will. And like you said, it sounds like an intriguing possibility, a possible X-ray to determine whether or not the bullet fragments are .223, that high- velocity round that this sniper is using. So we will have to see if they will have to resort to that, Carol.
COSTELLO: All right, thank you, Patty Davis, for the update from Richmond, Virginia.
And Fredricka, there is no news conference scheduled here for Montgomery Count, because of course, the sniper task force is in Ashland, Virginia, and that is where the latest news conference will take place somewhere around 11:00 Eastern time.
WHITFIELD: All right, thanks very much, Carol, and of course, we're going to be bringing that to you live as it happens out of Ashland, Virginia.
We are going to take a short break for now. When we come back, we are going to evaluate the methods of this sniper, at least what we know of them so far. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: If last night's shooting near Richmond, Virginia are related, then this will be the furthest from the D.C. metro area the sniper has struck since the shootings began October 2. CNN criminologist Casey Jordon studies homicide trends and the patterns of serial killings, and she is with us now. Good to see you, Casey.
CASEY JORDAN, CNN CRIMINOLOGIST: Good to see you, Fredricka.
WHITFIELD: All right. If indeed this shooting last night is related we are talking about a shooting that took place about 50 miles north of Richmond, 90 miles south of the Washington, D.C. area. How would you explain this very different geographical pattern, if indeed this were the same shooter?
JORDAN: Well, on the surface, it may look inconsistent since most of the shootings were in the D.C. area, and that if you think about it from the big picture, it's highly consistent, because it would represent displacement of the crime to a new area as a reaction to the increased presence and attention of law enforcement in the D.C. area.
Ever since Monday night's shooting of Linda Franklin, we have seen a tremendous upsurge of police interest and planning in terms of what they are going to do after the next event, if this indeed is the next event. And of course, the discussion of Pentagon technology. So it's only logical that the shooter would actually displace to a new location. The shootings had already been meandering southward. So this doesn't surprise me at all if it turns out to be the work of the D.C. area sniper.
WHITFIELD: And we've been talking about this morning, even with other analysts, who say the other similarities they see, though, even though this is far outside the perimeter of that geographical profile based on the other 11 shootings, what is similar is that this, too, would take place just short off of an exit off perhaps 95 or Route 1 in this case as well.
JORDAN: Absolutely. That is one of the consistent factors, is that there has always been some very carefully planned escape routes. Again, we call that the permeability of the neighborhood. A person who is getting away with these kinds of crimes is not doing so accidentally. He or they case the area very carefully, have a getaway plan, maybe even plans, "A", "B", "C," just in case they encounter some obstacles. And to be near a number of different alternatives, not just near I-95 but to have other choices is very key in the decision-making process of where they strike.
WHITFIELD: Others have said that they are certain, almost certain that this is the work of a pair or at least a group. But wouldn't you think at this juncture, two weeks now of this spate of shootings, if it were a pair or a group, there would be some bragging going on, because that often is what foils an operation like that?
JORDAN: Fredricka, that's precisely why I do discount the pair theory. And I don't discount it entirely. I'm almost a 50/50 split on the lone gunman versus the pair theory. And Eric makes some excellent points about why he believes it's a pair. And they all make sense to me, but I tend to stick with the lone gunman theory for exactly the reasons you brought up, because your conspiracy is only as strong as its weakest link. It may sound like a cute little quip, but it's very true.
When there are two people involved, one of them could easily prove to be the weak link. Screw up the plan, start bragging too much. Need a little bit more from the counterpart than they're willing to give, or one person could simply fall pray to a lure of half-million-dollars and decide to drop the dime on his or her partner. WHITFIELD: And something that's interesting too, and perhaps it's one of the reasons why you mentioned Eric Haney who was with me just about 10 minutes ago. While he believes that it may be the work of a group or individuals, and others agree with him as well, something that also strikes me as unusual is that you've got almost half and half now of these victims shot either in the abdominal area or in the head. And perhaps if it were the work of one person, he may be aiming for the same area of the body every time, but we're not seeing that in this case. It's about half-and-half so far.
JORDAN: You're right. But there are a number of different variables that could account for that that have nothing to do with the idea that it could be more than one shooter. A lot of it could simply do with visibility, issues of lighting, issues of fog, issues of obstacles in the way, or proximity to the victim. So just because they are missing the torso, if that is indeed exactly where the sniper is aiming every time, it doesn't mean that it's two different shooters. It could be due to a variety of different reasons.
WHITFIELD: And as we evaluate these shooting, at least the 11 confirmed shootings, outside of what took place last night, because once again, we really do not know if there is a connection being drawn with the shooting taking place just outside of Richmond, but weather, apparently, is not really a factor as this is happening. We are seeing different variations of light. We are seeing that a couple of the shootings took place when there was fog, when there was rain, and when it was perfectly clear out.
JORDAN: Absolutely.
WHITFIELD: So how do you assess this, if at all? When you try to look at all the variables or all the commonalities about these shootings, do you strike out whether -- as perhaps being an indicator of this person's level of expertise in shooting?
JORDAN: I think that it's more an underscoring of what so many people have been saying all along. And I hate to sound like a broken record, but the pattern is the randomness. If you have a person who only shoots on a particular day of the week, only on a particular time of the day, only during particular weather or particular type of victims, these are the things that make them so easy to catch. And because the shooter or shooters is mixing it up -- really, every time we think we see a pattern, they prove to us that there is no pattern, that is a tremendous explanation or reason why they continue to evade police capture.
WHITFIELD: All right, criminologist Casey Jordan. Thank you very much. Always good to talk to you.
JORDAN: Great talking to you, Fredricka.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
