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CNN Sunday Morning

Interview With Joost Hiltermann, Haifa Zangana

Aired December 29, 2002 - 09:23   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


RENAY SAN MIGUEL, CNN ANCHOR: As the U.S. moves toward a possible war with Baghdad, we now turn to the mood in Iraq and how ordinary Iraqis feel about a military attack, a possible military attack on their country. A recent report by the International Crisis Group found that of about 30 people asked, most support a military invasion of their country. One said, "we have nothing to lose." We get more details on this poll now from Joost Hiltermann, from the ICG. He joins us by phone from Amman, Jordan.
And Joost, I'm wondering about how you can manage to get the public opinion in a country where voicing your opinion can get you in some very serious trouble.

JOOST HILTERMANN, INTERNATIONAL CRISIS GROUP: Well, clearly, this is not a public survey. This is a small group of people, as you said, about 30 people. And it is possible to go into Iraq and to speak privately with people over a certain amount of time. So that's how we did it.

SAN MIGUEL: And who were you talking to? I mean, did you find of those 30 people, I realize there are several million people in the country. But of those 30 people, do you feel you have a good cross- section of Iraqis?

HILTERMANN: No, no, I don't think so. We'd never make that claim. I think what is significant is that we spoke to people we've been speaking to over a number of years. Our researcher (UNINTELLIGIBLE) these people. And so she's seen her -- their opinions develop...

SAN MIGUEL: OK, I'm sorry, we apologize. We were having some difficulty with our phone lines there.

We want to -- we also have some other guests lined up to talk about this as well. Joost, are you still with us?

OK. We're getting him back. We're going to be joined later on, I want to say, by an Iraqi novelist who lived in Britain -- who has lived in Britain for more than 25 years.

Right now, actually, we do have Haifa Zangana. She is a writer and artist based in London, but have lived in Iraq for many years, until 1975. She was actually imprisoned and tortured there.

Ms. Zangana, thank you so much for your time. I hope that you can hear me OK. What about your take on how the people of Iraq are preparing for this possible war?

HAIFA ZANGANA, IRAQI BRITISH NOVELIST: Well, I think that Iraqi people are living in limbo for the last 20, 30 years. They are waiting for the change and not expecting great help from anybody outside Iraq, because they have been let down for so many times and they have been betrayed so many times.

So what they're doing at the moment, all they're saying -- I mean, I've been in touch with some of my friends in Iraq and whenever I ask them, they say they're waiting. I ask, what are you waiting for? And the only answer that comes it's not a change, but mainly to lift the sanctions, to lift them, live their ordinary life in a term of economy, to change their situation from being beggars, relying on the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) accruing (ph) monthly, like a huge camp of refugees waiting for (UNINTELLIGIBLE), and to gain their power and dignity, because they lost that in this process of 12 years of sanctions, 12 years since 1998 until now, there's a continuous bombardment of Iraqi people, which we don't hear much about.

And in the last three months, actually, according to Ministry of Defense in Britain, they increased the bombardment of Iraqi civilians and infrastructure, and the military, of course, places by 300 percent. That's something we don't hear a lot about.

So Iraqi people are continuously punished by the people they are claiming that are going to help them at the moment.

SAN MIGUEL: Let me go ahead -- I want to get you to hang on with us, because I want you to hear what Mr. Hiltermann has to say about this poll taken of Iraqis. We have Joost Hiltermann back with us.

What were the findings of this poll, unscientific as you say, but what were the findings that you have heard from these what you would call average Iraqis?

HILTERMANN: Well, the main sentiment was that people are desperately craving a return to normalcy. They've had over 20 years now of warfare and sanctions. And they are craving for a measure of respect, of a return to the world as citizens of a respected country.

And so they understand -- I don't think they're calling for the use of force to bring about an end to this regime, but they understand that this is now the most likely way things will go. And so they're accepting it. And they are just desperate to get to the day after.

SAN MIGUEL: But they are expecting some -- they believe that war is a foregone conclusion, and they do believe that regime change is -- that is the ultimate goal, even if it will take a war to do that?

HILTERMANN: That's right, because they understand that under this regime, there will not be an end to the sanctions and to the hardships that they've been forced to endure for the last 20 years.

SAN MIGUEL: OK. Ms. Zangana, you just heard what we were talking about there, a very informal, unscientific poll of the ICG did, Iraqis are expecting a war, they want a return to normalcy. You've said that the change should come from the people. The people should be able to handle this situation. It should come from within. But we've had 20 years of Saddam Hussein in power. How much longer will the Iraqi people put up with him?

ZANGANA: I think it's the West only tried, the U.S. and Britain. the U.S. administration and Britain only tried to show some real help to Iraqi people, the Iraqi people would be more than capable of the -- of changing their regime themselves. But subjecting them to 12 years of total, inhuman sanctions, never seen in the modern history of humanity, and then asking them to adapt to democracy and change a regime is too much for anybody to be asked to do.

This is really -- I mean, not only that, but there is this threat of war, a daily threat of war. People are paralyzed. Of course they want the change of regime. They want to get rid of Saddam. But shouldn't we help them to do that themselves? Why on earth are we imposing solutions from outside Iraq? Why are we patronizing them, telling them, look, you're weak, you haven't done anything over the years, so we're the only people capable of establishing democracy, of liberating you.

I mean, looking at the history of the U.S. administration and Britain policy in the last 20, 30 years, there is not really much to be hopeful about, and if we have the time I can go through with you with all the details of it.

SAN MIGUEL: Well, let me go ahead and stop you there, because you bring up an interesting point. Let's say that the sanctions were lifted tomorrow against the Iraqi people, that they were able to have access to the food and the gasoline and the medicines that you're saying that they are not getting. Are you saying, then that it would be easier for them to overthrow the government of Saddam Hussein if those sanctions were lifted? he's been very good, as you well know, in quelling rebellion in his country.

ZANGANA: Well, to start with, we always ask for the embargo or sanctions on the Iraqi regime, regarding arms. And that's never been done. Arms were supplied freely to the regime over the years. So this is one thing.

So second one, yes, lift the sanctions. Let Iraqi people regain their dignity and their power, and they're capable of changing their regime. I think what's happened to the West is they helped the Iraqi regime in getting more control on Iraqi people. So they are weak now, and it's all convenient for everybody to say they are weak for the regime itself, because they can't do anything about it and for the U.S. administration and Britain. We're giving them very good reason to pretending they are helping the Iraqi people, liberating them, but liberating them of what? They've been doing that along the years, is Iraqi.

I'm just one simple example of what's happened to Iraqis. They've been struggling, they paid their lives to get rid of Saddam Hussein. And he was supplied with weapons, weapons of mass destruction we're talking about, were supplied by the U.S. and Britain. He hasn't invented themselves himself. He didn't have the capability of doing that. He was supplied until the 1990, until he invaded a country which was an ex-ally of his regime in its war against Iran.

SAN MIGUEL: We'll have to leave it there. Haifa Zangana, Iraqi British novelist and Joost Hiltermann of the International Crisis Group, trying to give us a take of what the Iraqi on the street, if you will, a Iraqi on a Baghdad street believes in the impending war with the U.S. Thank you both for joining us this morning.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired December 29, 2002 - 09:23   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RENAY SAN MIGUEL, CNN ANCHOR: As the U.S. moves toward a possible war with Baghdad, we now turn to the mood in Iraq and how ordinary Iraqis feel about a military attack, a possible military attack on their country. A recent report by the International Crisis Group found that of about 30 people asked, most support a military invasion of their country. One said, "we have nothing to lose." We get more details on this poll now from Joost Hiltermann, from the ICG. He joins us by phone from Amman, Jordan.
And Joost, I'm wondering about how you can manage to get the public opinion in a country where voicing your opinion can get you in some very serious trouble.

JOOST HILTERMANN, INTERNATIONAL CRISIS GROUP: Well, clearly, this is not a public survey. This is a small group of people, as you said, about 30 people. And it is possible to go into Iraq and to speak privately with people over a certain amount of time. So that's how we did it.

SAN MIGUEL: And who were you talking to? I mean, did you find of those 30 people, I realize there are several million people in the country. But of those 30 people, do you feel you have a good cross- section of Iraqis?

HILTERMANN: No, no, I don't think so. We'd never make that claim. I think what is significant is that we spoke to people we've been speaking to over a number of years. Our researcher (UNINTELLIGIBLE) these people. And so she's seen her -- their opinions develop...

SAN MIGUEL: OK, I'm sorry, we apologize. We were having some difficulty with our phone lines there.

We want to -- we also have some other guests lined up to talk about this as well. Joost, are you still with us?

OK. We're getting him back. We're going to be joined later on, I want to say, by an Iraqi novelist who lived in Britain -- who has lived in Britain for more than 25 years.

Right now, actually, we do have Haifa Zangana. She is a writer and artist based in London, but have lived in Iraq for many years, until 1975. She was actually imprisoned and tortured there.

Ms. Zangana, thank you so much for your time. I hope that you can hear me OK. What about your take on how the people of Iraq are preparing for this possible war?

HAIFA ZANGANA, IRAQI BRITISH NOVELIST: Well, I think that Iraqi people are living in limbo for the last 20, 30 years. They are waiting for the change and not expecting great help from anybody outside Iraq, because they have been let down for so many times and they have been betrayed so many times.

So what they're doing at the moment, all they're saying -- I mean, I've been in touch with some of my friends in Iraq and whenever I ask them, they say they're waiting. I ask, what are you waiting for? And the only answer that comes it's not a change, but mainly to lift the sanctions, to lift them, live their ordinary life in a term of economy, to change their situation from being beggars, relying on the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) accruing (ph) monthly, like a huge camp of refugees waiting for (UNINTELLIGIBLE), and to gain their power and dignity, because they lost that in this process of 12 years of sanctions, 12 years since 1998 until now, there's a continuous bombardment of Iraqi people, which we don't hear much about.

And in the last three months, actually, according to Ministry of Defense in Britain, they increased the bombardment of Iraqi civilians and infrastructure, and the military, of course, places by 300 percent. That's something we don't hear a lot about.

So Iraqi people are continuously punished by the people they are claiming that are going to help them at the moment.

SAN MIGUEL: Let me go ahead -- I want to get you to hang on with us, because I want you to hear what Mr. Hiltermann has to say about this poll taken of Iraqis. We have Joost Hiltermann back with us.

What were the findings of this poll, unscientific as you say, but what were the findings that you have heard from these what you would call average Iraqis?

HILTERMANN: Well, the main sentiment was that people are desperately craving a return to normalcy. They've had over 20 years now of warfare and sanctions. And they are craving for a measure of respect, of a return to the world as citizens of a respected country.

And so they understand -- I don't think they're calling for the use of force to bring about an end to this regime, but they understand that this is now the most likely way things will go. And so they're accepting it. And they are just desperate to get to the day after.

SAN MIGUEL: But they are expecting some -- they believe that war is a foregone conclusion, and they do believe that regime change is -- that is the ultimate goal, even if it will take a war to do that?

HILTERMANN: That's right, because they understand that under this regime, there will not be an end to the sanctions and to the hardships that they've been forced to endure for the last 20 years.

SAN MIGUEL: OK. Ms. Zangana, you just heard what we were talking about there, a very informal, unscientific poll of the ICG did, Iraqis are expecting a war, they want a return to normalcy. You've said that the change should come from the people. The people should be able to handle this situation. It should come from within. But we've had 20 years of Saddam Hussein in power. How much longer will the Iraqi people put up with him?

ZANGANA: I think it's the West only tried, the U.S. and Britain. the U.S. administration and Britain only tried to show some real help to Iraqi people, the Iraqi people would be more than capable of the -- of changing their regime themselves. But subjecting them to 12 years of total, inhuman sanctions, never seen in the modern history of humanity, and then asking them to adapt to democracy and change a regime is too much for anybody to be asked to do.

This is really -- I mean, not only that, but there is this threat of war, a daily threat of war. People are paralyzed. Of course they want the change of regime. They want to get rid of Saddam. But shouldn't we help them to do that themselves? Why on earth are we imposing solutions from outside Iraq? Why are we patronizing them, telling them, look, you're weak, you haven't done anything over the years, so we're the only people capable of establishing democracy, of liberating you.

I mean, looking at the history of the U.S. administration and Britain policy in the last 20, 30 years, there is not really much to be hopeful about, and if we have the time I can go through with you with all the details of it.

SAN MIGUEL: Well, let me go ahead and stop you there, because you bring up an interesting point. Let's say that the sanctions were lifted tomorrow against the Iraqi people, that they were able to have access to the food and the gasoline and the medicines that you're saying that they are not getting. Are you saying, then that it would be easier for them to overthrow the government of Saddam Hussein if those sanctions were lifted? he's been very good, as you well know, in quelling rebellion in his country.

ZANGANA: Well, to start with, we always ask for the embargo or sanctions on the Iraqi regime, regarding arms. And that's never been done. Arms were supplied freely to the regime over the years. So this is one thing.

So second one, yes, lift the sanctions. Let Iraqi people regain their dignity and their power, and they're capable of changing their regime. I think what's happened to the West is they helped the Iraqi regime in getting more control on Iraqi people. So they are weak now, and it's all convenient for everybody to say they are weak for the regime itself, because they can't do anything about it and for the U.S. administration and Britain. We're giving them very good reason to pretending they are helping the Iraqi people, liberating them, but liberating them of what? They've been doing that along the years, is Iraqi.

I'm just one simple example of what's happened to Iraqis. They've been struggling, they paid their lives to get rid of Saddam Hussein. And he was supplied with weapons, weapons of mass destruction we're talking about, were supplied by the U.S. and Britain. He hasn't invented themselves himself. He didn't have the capability of doing that. He was supplied until the 1990, until he invaded a country which was an ex-ally of his regime in its war against Iran.

SAN MIGUEL: We'll have to leave it there. Haifa Zangana, Iraqi British novelist and Joost Hiltermann of the International Crisis Group, trying to give us a take of what the Iraqi on the street, if you will, a Iraqi on a Baghdad street believes in the impending war with the U.S. Thank you both for joining us this morning.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com