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CNN Sunday Morning

Interview With Olivia Bosch

Aired January 19, 2003 - 07:02   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: First up this hour, tough talk in Baghdad, as the men heading up the weapons inspection effort lay down the law again.
Senior CNN international correspondent Nic Robertson is following the developments in Iraq's capital city. He joins us now live with more details -- Nic.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, good morning, Heidi. The chief U.N. weapons inspector, Hans Blix and Mohamed El-Baradei, the director general of the International Atomic Energy Agency, are due to have their first meeting here in a little less than an hour. They'll meet with general Amir Al-Saadi, President Saddam Hussein's top scientific adviser. Also at that meeting will be Iraq's ambassador to the United Nations and the chief interlocutor to the weapons inspectors here.

Hans Blix has said that the situation's very tense, and that what he is looking for from Iraqi officials is better cooperation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HANS BLIX, U.N. CHIEF WEAPONS INSPECTOR: We have had access everywhere so far, and we hope there will be access everywhere so far, and has been prompt access, and that has been good. But there needs to also to be further cooperation, and we will discuss that with them. And this picture is not to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) too, it is an alternative to war, and that is what we want to achieve.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTSON: Now, Blix and El-Baradei have a very clear set of issues. They want the Iraqis to address El-Baradei saying that the timing of this meeting is very important.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MOHAMED EL-BARADEI, DIRECTOR GENERAL, IAEA: The timing of our visit is very important. We would like to see an inspection to work -- for an inspection to work, we still need a lot of additional information, and we are going to impress on our Iraqi counterpart the importance of providing as much information, as much documents, as much physical evidence as possible. This will (UNINTELLIGIBLE) submit our report next week to the Security Council.

(END VIDEO CLIP) ROBERTSON: Now, inspections have been going on here for over 50 days. One inspection yesterday, an indication of the speed of those inspections at this time, over 12 U.N. vehicles going to the Alcalca (ph) site, 32 inspectors looking at ammunitions stored there, some of the inspectors dressed in chemical protective suits. That site also has -- produces chemicals.

President Saddam Hussein also, just this last day, meeting with top military advisers telling them the importance of the -- the importance of the fighters in Iraq having faith in their leaders -- here, Heidi.

COLLINS: Nic, is there any sense that you might be getting about how exactly the inspectors are going to, Blix and El-Baradei, of course, in particular, are going to press the Iraqis, specifically how to get more information, more documents released to them?

ROBERTSON: Well, what they're likely to point too are some of the issues that have come up this week, the very fact that they've discovered chemical warheads, the very fact that they discovered some documents at a home of a scientist, they're going to say, very likely, because this is what they've been saying publicly already -- these elements out there, these are exactly the sort of things that you should be showing us, that you should be giving us, we shouldn't be going out there and finding them ourselves, this is what they've been saying. And this is why they've been pushing the Iraqis very likely on to show them that this is exactly the sort of -- these are exactly the sort of issues that they should be helping the U.N. with, not just sitting back and opening doors to safes, but actually giving them this information.

COLLINS: All right, Nic Robertson, live this morning, thank you.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, let's talk more now about the visit by Blix and El-Baradei, and get some more insight about the inspection process. As you know, this trip to Baghdad comes just three days after the discovery of a dozen empty chemical warheads at an Iraqi ammunition depot. And joining us now is former U.N. weapons inspector Olivia Bosch. She is currently a visiting fellow at the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London. Ms. Bosch, good to have you with us.

OLIVIA BOSCH, FORMER U.N. WEAPONS INSPECTOR: Good morning.

O'BRIEN: If you were on that mission, Dr. Blix, and Mohamed El- Baradei's mission, what would you be doing right now?

BOSCH: Well, as we've heard, they will be pressing more upon the Iraqis to be more proactive in providing the information.

O'BRIEN: So, how would you go about that, though -- how would you go about making them more proactive?

BOSCH: Well, you can't actually make them more proactive, but what there is, is quite a bit of pressure on the part of the Iraqis. One, the inspectors will be given intelligence to continue finding places where there might be further evidence of programs of weapons of mass destruction -- so, that's continuing already in the background.

Secondly, I think there's quite a bit of international attention now on the fact that the 11 plus one warheads -- chemical warheads -- had been found, and there are quite a few questions that remain unanswered about those. They are chemical warheads. In the past, it's well known -- the .122 mm warheads are not an unknown quantity in the Iraqi inventory. In the past, they have imported about 126,000 of these, about anywhere from 30 to 70,000 of which were known to be for chemical warheads, and/or biological fills.

O'BRIEN: Well, Ms. Bosch, Ms. Bosch -- let me just ask you this -- is the issue...

BOSCH: Yes.

O'BRIEN: The specifics of the warhead, empty or not, new or not, or is it the issue that the Iraqis have been forthcoming about it, and also couple that with the fact that in that unannounced visit to that Iraqi scientist the other day, the inspectors found some 3,000 pages of documents about enriching uranium, also not a part of that 12,000- page declaration. So, in and of itself, those two items might be minor, but taken together, it does show a pattern of deception, does it not?

BOSCH: Yes. In fact, according to paragraph four of the Resolution 1441 that was passed in November, the material breach is already there. Paragraph four said that if there were any false omissions or incorrect statements in the declaration of 7th December, that would be part of a material breach. We've already seen or heard that the 7th December declaration was not complete; the many questions left unanswered there.

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: Well, you can see, it may be a -- you may view it as a material breach, but I'm curious if the world community...

BOSCH: No, there's an and.

O'BRIEN: ... would view it.

BOSCH: Well, there's an and -- in paragraph four, there was an and. There were false omissions and a lack of cooperation, and in the last three days, the inspectors have seen the lack of cooperation in terms of those chemical warheads not having been made available beforehand, and in the documents yesterday, even if it was old knowledge, there had been requests that all documents that were in the hands of scientists or whoever should have been made available.

So, in a technical sense, material breach components are already there based on paragraph four where that is not... O'BRIEN: No -- I -- Yes, I agree with you that technically there might be a material breach there. The question is, does it rise to the level that the international community would resoundingly support some sort of attack on Iraq? It -- doesn't the gun have to be a little smokier than this?

BOSCH: Well, the Security Council will have to make the assessment on the military use. So far, we've seen the threat of military force, and that's what brought us all to the position that we're in today.

So, it's unclear whether all this in itself would justify having a military action, but again, I'm still asserting that there is a threat of military force of bringing us to the position now, and after the 27th (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

O'BRIEN: Ms. Bosch, just finally -- do you think the Iraqi's are lying?

BOSCH: They are -- it would appear that they have resumed and are acting in the way that we've known them to do in the past, which is not very straight forward and deceptive, yes.

O'BRIEN: Olivia Bosch, former U.N. weapons inspectors from London -- inspector from London -- thank you very much for being with us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired January 19, 2003 - 07:02   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: First up this hour, tough talk in Baghdad, as the men heading up the weapons inspection effort lay down the law again.
Senior CNN international correspondent Nic Robertson is following the developments in Iraq's capital city. He joins us now live with more details -- Nic.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, good morning, Heidi. The chief U.N. weapons inspector, Hans Blix and Mohamed El-Baradei, the director general of the International Atomic Energy Agency, are due to have their first meeting here in a little less than an hour. They'll meet with general Amir Al-Saadi, President Saddam Hussein's top scientific adviser. Also at that meeting will be Iraq's ambassador to the United Nations and the chief interlocutor to the weapons inspectors here.

Hans Blix has said that the situation's very tense, and that what he is looking for from Iraqi officials is better cooperation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HANS BLIX, U.N. CHIEF WEAPONS INSPECTOR: We have had access everywhere so far, and we hope there will be access everywhere so far, and has been prompt access, and that has been good. But there needs to also to be further cooperation, and we will discuss that with them. And this picture is not to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) too, it is an alternative to war, and that is what we want to achieve.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTSON: Now, Blix and El-Baradei have a very clear set of issues. They want the Iraqis to address El-Baradei saying that the timing of this meeting is very important.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MOHAMED EL-BARADEI, DIRECTOR GENERAL, IAEA: The timing of our visit is very important. We would like to see an inspection to work -- for an inspection to work, we still need a lot of additional information, and we are going to impress on our Iraqi counterpart the importance of providing as much information, as much documents, as much physical evidence as possible. This will (UNINTELLIGIBLE) submit our report next week to the Security Council.

(END VIDEO CLIP) ROBERTSON: Now, inspections have been going on here for over 50 days. One inspection yesterday, an indication of the speed of those inspections at this time, over 12 U.N. vehicles going to the Alcalca (ph) site, 32 inspectors looking at ammunitions stored there, some of the inspectors dressed in chemical protective suits. That site also has -- produces chemicals.

President Saddam Hussein also, just this last day, meeting with top military advisers telling them the importance of the -- the importance of the fighters in Iraq having faith in their leaders -- here, Heidi.

COLLINS: Nic, is there any sense that you might be getting about how exactly the inspectors are going to, Blix and El-Baradei, of course, in particular, are going to press the Iraqis, specifically how to get more information, more documents released to them?

ROBERTSON: Well, what they're likely to point too are some of the issues that have come up this week, the very fact that they've discovered chemical warheads, the very fact that they discovered some documents at a home of a scientist, they're going to say, very likely, because this is what they've been saying publicly already -- these elements out there, these are exactly the sort of things that you should be showing us, that you should be giving us, we shouldn't be going out there and finding them ourselves, this is what they've been saying. And this is why they've been pushing the Iraqis very likely on to show them that this is exactly the sort of -- these are exactly the sort of issues that they should be helping the U.N. with, not just sitting back and opening doors to safes, but actually giving them this information.

COLLINS: All right, Nic Robertson, live this morning, thank you.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, let's talk more now about the visit by Blix and El-Baradei, and get some more insight about the inspection process. As you know, this trip to Baghdad comes just three days after the discovery of a dozen empty chemical warheads at an Iraqi ammunition depot. And joining us now is former U.N. weapons inspector Olivia Bosch. She is currently a visiting fellow at the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London. Ms. Bosch, good to have you with us.

OLIVIA BOSCH, FORMER U.N. WEAPONS INSPECTOR: Good morning.

O'BRIEN: If you were on that mission, Dr. Blix, and Mohamed El- Baradei's mission, what would you be doing right now?

BOSCH: Well, as we've heard, they will be pressing more upon the Iraqis to be more proactive in providing the information.

O'BRIEN: So, how would you go about that, though -- how would you go about making them more proactive?

BOSCH: Well, you can't actually make them more proactive, but what there is, is quite a bit of pressure on the part of the Iraqis. One, the inspectors will be given intelligence to continue finding places where there might be further evidence of programs of weapons of mass destruction -- so, that's continuing already in the background.

Secondly, I think there's quite a bit of international attention now on the fact that the 11 plus one warheads -- chemical warheads -- had been found, and there are quite a few questions that remain unanswered about those. They are chemical warheads. In the past, it's well known -- the .122 mm warheads are not an unknown quantity in the Iraqi inventory. In the past, they have imported about 126,000 of these, about anywhere from 30 to 70,000 of which were known to be for chemical warheads, and/or biological fills.

O'BRIEN: Well, Ms. Bosch, Ms. Bosch -- let me just ask you this -- is the issue...

BOSCH: Yes.

O'BRIEN: The specifics of the warhead, empty or not, new or not, or is it the issue that the Iraqis have been forthcoming about it, and also couple that with the fact that in that unannounced visit to that Iraqi scientist the other day, the inspectors found some 3,000 pages of documents about enriching uranium, also not a part of that 12,000- page declaration. So, in and of itself, those two items might be minor, but taken together, it does show a pattern of deception, does it not?

BOSCH: Yes. In fact, according to paragraph four of the Resolution 1441 that was passed in November, the material breach is already there. Paragraph four said that if there were any false omissions or incorrect statements in the declaration of 7th December, that would be part of a material breach. We've already seen or heard that the 7th December declaration was not complete; the many questions left unanswered there.

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: Well, you can see, it may be a -- you may view it as a material breach, but I'm curious if the world community...

BOSCH: No, there's an and.

O'BRIEN: ... would view it.

BOSCH: Well, there's an and -- in paragraph four, there was an and. There were false omissions and a lack of cooperation, and in the last three days, the inspectors have seen the lack of cooperation in terms of those chemical warheads not having been made available beforehand, and in the documents yesterday, even if it was old knowledge, there had been requests that all documents that were in the hands of scientists or whoever should have been made available.

So, in a technical sense, material breach components are already there based on paragraph four where that is not... O'BRIEN: No -- I -- Yes, I agree with you that technically there might be a material breach there. The question is, does it rise to the level that the international community would resoundingly support some sort of attack on Iraq? It -- doesn't the gun have to be a little smokier than this?

BOSCH: Well, the Security Council will have to make the assessment on the military use. So far, we've seen the threat of military force, and that's what brought us all to the position that we're in today.

So, it's unclear whether all this in itself would justify having a military action, but again, I'm still asserting that there is a threat of military force of bringing us to the position now, and after the 27th (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

O'BRIEN: Ms. Bosch, just finally -- do you think the Iraqi's are lying?

BOSCH: They are -- it would appear that they have resumed and are acting in the way that we've known them to do in the past, which is not very straight forward and deceptive, yes.

O'BRIEN: Olivia Bosch, former U.N. weapons inspectors from London -- inspector from London -- thank you very much for being with us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com