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CNN Sunday Morning

Interview With Santiago Nieves, Maggie Zalamea

Aired January 19, 2003 - 10:37   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: The nation will honor the civil rights legacy of Martin Luther King Jr. tomorrow. And as school children prepare their "I Have a Dream" speeches, a Harvard University study looks at the resegregation in schools. The study found the nation's schools are becoming steadily more nonwhite. It also found the desegregation of black students has reseeded to levels not seen in 30 years. Gary Orfield is a Harvard professor who co-authored the study. He spoke earlier here on CNN.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GARY ORFIELD, THE CIVIL RIGHTS PROJECT AT HARVARD UNIVERSITY: back in the 1960s when Martin Luther King started his movement, 99 percent of black students in the south were in completely segregated schools. Now only about an eighth are in absolutely segregated schools. But we're going backwards and it's the -- the pace of it is accelerating. So now we have about one-sixth of the black students in the country in schools that we call apartheid schools and up to a fourth in the Northeast.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: That Harvard study also found that one of the fastest growing minority groups is being left behind. The study says that among minority groups, Latinos attend the least integrated schools. We'll debate this issue with our guest today. Santiago Nieves is a radio talk show host and is in New York this morning, this afternoon. It is still morning, right? And Maggie Zalamea is with Miami's chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union. She's also with the Broward County Public School System. And she is in Miami.

Good morning to you both. Thanks for being here.

SANTIAGO NIEVES, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Good morning, Heidi.

MAGGIE ZALAMEA, ACLU: Good morning.

COLLINS: Let's go ahead and start with -- you know I told a little bit about what the study found. Do you both even agree with what the study found? Do you see any merit to it? Go ahead Santiago. You go ahead and start.

NIEVES: Well, there's a certainty and merit to it. The only thing I would say about the report is that -- to say that it's resegregation assumes there's been some integration and for someone like me, who's been covering the educational scene, public educational scene here in New York for over 20 years at the forefront of the fight for community control of schools, where parents have more of a say -- excuse me -- mostly Latino and black parents of the '60s and '70s and that type about the kind of curriculum and being part of the decision making when it comes to their children. Really unfortunately I really haven't seen much of a change. The schools, sadly, as a matter of fact, as the report correctly states, is that despite our numbers being larger, where Latinos are the largest minority, boy, that's -- that's a misnomer if I ever heard one, that Latinos remain segregated in these schools. And it's defined by the lack of funding, curriculum, et cetera. So I say that the situation is certainly as bad as the report says. And I dare say I think in the Northeast, even worse, I think, than even the report might define.

COLLINS: Maggie, do you agree with any of this? You say we are making strides.

ZALAMEA: We are definitely making strides in the south and the west. As a matter of fact, the report does state that most -- there are more integrated schools in the south and the west than there are in other areas of the country and that is because of immigration patterns. As you know, in south Florida, for example, here in Miami and Broward County, has had a history of immigrants coming from South America, Cuba, the Caribbean and for those reasons south Florida schools have had to deal with this problem for a longer time.

Now as you may...

COLLINS: Maggie, I'm so sorry. I'm going to have to break in just really quickly. We will come back to you guys. We want to give an update on the story that we've been covering here this morning about two missing girls in Kissimmee, Florida. Elizabeth Murrell and her sister, Amanda, have been found. We -- you can see their pictures here. One was 12 years old and the other is 9. They have been found. This is according to News 13 in central, Florida. We've been talking a little bit earlier to Dan Smart, a reporter there. That is where this is coming in to us from. We are going to of course keep checking on it and bring you any more information as to how they may have been found and bring that to you just as soon as week it. But once again, Elizabeth Murrell and Amanda Murrell have been found. So good news there.

All right. Back to our two panelists, our two -- CNN has confirmed and I am hearing magically in my ear that the two girls have been found. So once again, very good news there.

NIEVES: Glad to hear it.

COLLINS: All right guys. Back over to you. I interrupted you, Maggie. Did you finish your thought?

ZALAMEA: No, absolutely not. First of all...

COLLINS: OK, please do.

ZALAMEA: ... I'm glad that the girls were found. The state -- the report says that Florida is one of the states with the highest white exposure to black and Latino students and that's absolutely true. So we need to look at the different regions in the country. I don't think that you can generalize and I think the report does generalize.

NIEVES: You know I think there certainly has been a lot of tolerance, I mean, to a great extent. It can't be helped because of the numbers of influx not only of Latinos, but Asians, people from the West Indies, from the Mid East. This has transformed it when busing was demanded. That was about black and white. Now it's a very complex situation.

By the way, perhaps it's just a side issue, but I take offense at your defining, Maggie, of the -- as the number of people in this complex issue was a problem. It shouldn't be a problem. And I think that the more we look at it as a problem, the worse it is. It's a complex world and I think we need to look at it as a complex world. It shouldn't be a problem.

But unfortunately, when I say these schools are still segregated it is defined by the lack of monies that come down. It is defined by the lack of curriculum that doesn't identify a curriculum that's about a service economy and not an industrial economy that doesn't exist anymore. It's about overcrowding schools. I could go on and on of the kinds of thins that kids mostly Latino, black and minority kids don't get that's unfair throughout the nation.

ZALAMEA: Well, I think we need to look at the No Child Left Behind Act and we need to focus on some of the strides that are being made and some of the efforts that are being made. I think that too often we focus on the negative aspect and we fail to look at some accomplishments. For example, now we have the No Child Left Behind Act, which requires that there, be more outreach to Hispanic parents, to get them involved more in their children's education. It requires that there be studies done regarding the achievement gap between Latinos, black and white students. And it requires all the school districts to come up with plans that show that they are addressing limited English proficient students and that they...

NIEVES: Yes, but...

COLLINS: You know what guys? I apologize...

NIEVES: Go ahead, Maggie. I just wanted to say very quickly, you know, this is on the heels of Trent Lott and the Republicans' feet being held to the fire. You talk about -- Bush talks about every child must be uplifted, et cetera, and yet he's challenging affirmative action as we speak. I think it's hypocrisy.

COLLINS: Maggie, a final thought?

ZALAMEA: South Florida should be looked at as an example for serving minority kids, Latinos, African-American and for integrating -- providing quality services for limited English proficient students and immigrants. We really should be looked at as a model for the country.

COLLINS: All right. Santiago Nieves from New York and Maggie Zalamea coming to us from -- Maggie, where are you?

ZALAMEA: Miami.

COLLINS: In Miami, that's right.

ZALAMEA: I'm in Miami but close to Broward County.

COLLINS: That's right, very good. Thank you guys for being here. We do appreciate it. Sorry about the interruptions there.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired January 19, 2003 - 10:37   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: The nation will honor the civil rights legacy of Martin Luther King Jr. tomorrow. And as school children prepare their "I Have a Dream" speeches, a Harvard University study looks at the resegregation in schools. The study found the nation's schools are becoming steadily more nonwhite. It also found the desegregation of black students has reseeded to levels not seen in 30 years. Gary Orfield is a Harvard professor who co-authored the study. He spoke earlier here on CNN.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GARY ORFIELD, THE CIVIL RIGHTS PROJECT AT HARVARD UNIVERSITY: back in the 1960s when Martin Luther King started his movement, 99 percent of black students in the south were in completely segregated schools. Now only about an eighth are in absolutely segregated schools. But we're going backwards and it's the -- the pace of it is accelerating. So now we have about one-sixth of the black students in the country in schools that we call apartheid schools and up to a fourth in the Northeast.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: That Harvard study also found that one of the fastest growing minority groups is being left behind. The study says that among minority groups, Latinos attend the least integrated schools. We'll debate this issue with our guest today. Santiago Nieves is a radio talk show host and is in New York this morning, this afternoon. It is still morning, right? And Maggie Zalamea is with Miami's chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union. She's also with the Broward County Public School System. And she is in Miami.

Good morning to you both. Thanks for being here.

SANTIAGO NIEVES, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Good morning, Heidi.

MAGGIE ZALAMEA, ACLU: Good morning.

COLLINS: Let's go ahead and start with -- you know I told a little bit about what the study found. Do you both even agree with what the study found? Do you see any merit to it? Go ahead Santiago. You go ahead and start.

NIEVES: Well, there's a certainty and merit to it. The only thing I would say about the report is that -- to say that it's resegregation assumes there's been some integration and for someone like me, who's been covering the educational scene, public educational scene here in New York for over 20 years at the forefront of the fight for community control of schools, where parents have more of a say -- excuse me -- mostly Latino and black parents of the '60s and '70s and that type about the kind of curriculum and being part of the decision making when it comes to their children. Really unfortunately I really haven't seen much of a change. The schools, sadly, as a matter of fact, as the report correctly states, is that despite our numbers being larger, where Latinos are the largest minority, boy, that's -- that's a misnomer if I ever heard one, that Latinos remain segregated in these schools. And it's defined by the lack of funding, curriculum, et cetera. So I say that the situation is certainly as bad as the report says. And I dare say I think in the Northeast, even worse, I think, than even the report might define.

COLLINS: Maggie, do you agree with any of this? You say we are making strides.

ZALAMEA: We are definitely making strides in the south and the west. As a matter of fact, the report does state that most -- there are more integrated schools in the south and the west than there are in other areas of the country and that is because of immigration patterns. As you know, in south Florida, for example, here in Miami and Broward County, has had a history of immigrants coming from South America, Cuba, the Caribbean and for those reasons south Florida schools have had to deal with this problem for a longer time.

Now as you may...

COLLINS: Maggie, I'm so sorry. I'm going to have to break in just really quickly. We will come back to you guys. We want to give an update on the story that we've been covering here this morning about two missing girls in Kissimmee, Florida. Elizabeth Murrell and her sister, Amanda, have been found. We -- you can see their pictures here. One was 12 years old and the other is 9. They have been found. This is according to News 13 in central, Florida. We've been talking a little bit earlier to Dan Smart, a reporter there. That is where this is coming in to us from. We are going to of course keep checking on it and bring you any more information as to how they may have been found and bring that to you just as soon as week it. But once again, Elizabeth Murrell and Amanda Murrell have been found. So good news there.

All right. Back to our two panelists, our two -- CNN has confirmed and I am hearing magically in my ear that the two girls have been found. So once again, very good news there.

NIEVES: Glad to hear it.

COLLINS: All right guys. Back over to you. I interrupted you, Maggie. Did you finish your thought?

ZALAMEA: No, absolutely not. First of all...

COLLINS: OK, please do.

ZALAMEA: ... I'm glad that the girls were found. The state -- the report says that Florida is one of the states with the highest white exposure to black and Latino students and that's absolutely true. So we need to look at the different regions in the country. I don't think that you can generalize and I think the report does generalize.

NIEVES: You know I think there certainly has been a lot of tolerance, I mean, to a great extent. It can't be helped because of the numbers of influx not only of Latinos, but Asians, people from the West Indies, from the Mid East. This has transformed it when busing was demanded. That was about black and white. Now it's a very complex situation.

By the way, perhaps it's just a side issue, but I take offense at your defining, Maggie, of the -- as the number of people in this complex issue was a problem. It shouldn't be a problem. And I think that the more we look at it as a problem, the worse it is. It's a complex world and I think we need to look at it as a complex world. It shouldn't be a problem.

But unfortunately, when I say these schools are still segregated it is defined by the lack of monies that come down. It is defined by the lack of curriculum that doesn't identify a curriculum that's about a service economy and not an industrial economy that doesn't exist anymore. It's about overcrowding schools. I could go on and on of the kinds of thins that kids mostly Latino, black and minority kids don't get that's unfair throughout the nation.

ZALAMEA: Well, I think we need to look at the No Child Left Behind Act and we need to focus on some of the strides that are being made and some of the efforts that are being made. I think that too often we focus on the negative aspect and we fail to look at some accomplishments. For example, now we have the No Child Left Behind Act, which requires that there, be more outreach to Hispanic parents, to get them involved more in their children's education. It requires that there be studies done regarding the achievement gap between Latinos, black and white students. And it requires all the school districts to come up with plans that show that they are addressing limited English proficient students and that they...

NIEVES: Yes, but...

COLLINS: You know what guys? I apologize...

NIEVES: Go ahead, Maggie. I just wanted to say very quickly, you know, this is on the heels of Trent Lott and the Republicans' feet being held to the fire. You talk about -- Bush talks about every child must be uplifted, et cetera, and yet he's challenging affirmative action as we speak. I think it's hypocrisy.

COLLINS: Maggie, a final thought?

ZALAMEA: South Florida should be looked at as an example for serving minority kids, Latinos, African-American and for integrating -- providing quality services for limited English proficient students and immigrants. We really should be looked at as a model for the country.

COLLINS: All right. Santiago Nieves from New York and Maggie Zalamea coming to us from -- Maggie, where are you?

ZALAMEA: Miami.

COLLINS: In Miami, that's right.

ZALAMEA: I'm in Miami but close to Broward County.

COLLINS: That's right, very good. Thank you guys for being here. We do appreciate it. Sorry about the interruptions there.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com