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CNN Sunday Morning

Interview With Richard Cizik, Jim Wallis

Aired March 02, 2003 - 07:41   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: The pope is stepping efforts to avert war in Iraq. He is sending a cardinal to meet with President Bush this week. Clearly among religious thinkers, there is a big difference of opinion about Iraq. Is a war just? Can any war be just? Questions we put this morning to our next guest, Reverend Richard Cizik is vice president of governmental affairs in the National Association of Evangelicals. And Reverend Jim Wallis is the executive director of Sojourners, which calls itself a progressive Christian magazine for justice and peace.
Both men, I appreciate you joining us this morning.

RICHARD CIZIK, NATL. ASSN. OF EVANGELICALS: Thank you.

COOPER: Reverend Wallace, I want to start off with you. Is any war just?

JIM WALLIS, SOJOURNER'S MAGAZINE: Well the churches have different views on war. One is the Christian non violence says you always must find a better way. Most churches hold to a just war doctrine. And we've never seen the kind of unity we now see in the churches in this country and around the world, that say this war with Iraq would not be a just war.

COOPER: Why do you believe the war would not be just?

WALLIS: Well, the reasons why are because most don't believe the pope has spoken. Many have spoken. This would not be a last resort. It's preemptive war. The casualties could be very high. The unintended consequences, the unpredictable consequences, most Americans believe this could bring more terrorism to us again here. The volatile nature of the Middle East. War for most churches cannot be justified unless it is just the last resort when everything else has been tried first. And most churches don't think we are at that point.

COOPER: Reverend Cizik, are we at that point?

CIZIK: I'm not sure. It's hard to determine that. I would say this to my friend, Jim Wallis, and I wanted to have this conversation with him a few days ago in Washington, but I guess we'll have to have it, Jim, over the air waves.

WALLIS: Sure.

CIZIK: I would say to you, Jim, and all the others who want peace, we want peace. Who in their right mind would not want peace? But the question I think everyone has to answer is peace at what price? Peace for how long? Peace at what risk? These are the questions that we have to answer.

And I happen to think that warfare, yes, as Augustine articulated in the city of God centuries ago, warfare yes, can be a moral option, especially when it's to -- and particularly when it's to restrain evil. And that is what the United States is about here. We are not the aggressor. We are not initiating war. We are attempting to end a war that began with Saddam Hussein going into Kuwait in 1990.

COOPER: Reverend Wallis, your thoughts?

WALLIS: You see, I think the churches must do more than just say this war is wrong. I think the reasons against this war right now are very solid. However, I think we have to go further. Churches should be peacemakers. Rich and I are friends. We agree on this. I want us right now to do something at the 11th hour. Martin King would say we are five minutes before midnight right now.

I think the churches and people of goodwill should try something new, which is this: separate Saddam Hussein from the people of Iraq. I think that removing Saddam Hussein is a moral cause, but I think to do it with war is in fact -- would be a terrible, horrible perhaps way to achieve this moral cause. The dictator is the problem. How do you remove a dictator without assaulting his people? The American people are sympathetic with the Iraqi people. They have suffered so long and so hard already. How do we remove Saddam at this 11th hour without attacking the people of Iraq? That's what we must find and search for.

CIZIK: Well, I would agree with Jim. The sanctions, one consequence have been that 5,000 children, according to UNICEF, die monthly.

WALLIS: Every month.

CIZIK: Five thousand children dying monthly.

WALLIS: That's right.

CIZIK: Count that up over 12 years. The current policy, I would argue, for sanctions isn't working when you have that many young children dying. There has to be a way to stop this dictator. And I frankly don't know how long we're willing to go, chance after chance. You know, peace initiative after peace initiative, call for world opinion after call for world opinion to stop a man who will not abide by the truce.

We didn't sign, you see a peace treaty. There was a truce that was made conditional upon Saddam Hussein's willingness to disarm. He is unwilling to disarm. I happen to believe the only option may be to do it militarily. And is so, that is an entirely moral option, given the threat that exists to our safety, the safety of the world. Tranquility of order is what we need internationally. And sometimes, just war theorists, theologians argue that is done primarily, yes, by warfare. And that's a moral option.

COOPER: And gentlemen, we are going to have to leave it there this morning. I'm very sorry. We're simply out of time. There's a lot to cover this morning. Reverend Jim Wallis, Reverend Richard Cizik. Appreciate both of you for joining us this morning. Thank you very much.

CIZIK: Thank you, Anderson.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired March 2, 2003 - 07:41   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: The pope is stepping efforts to avert war in Iraq. He is sending a cardinal to meet with President Bush this week. Clearly among religious thinkers, there is a big difference of opinion about Iraq. Is a war just? Can any war be just? Questions we put this morning to our next guest, Reverend Richard Cizik is vice president of governmental affairs in the National Association of Evangelicals. And Reverend Jim Wallis is the executive director of Sojourners, which calls itself a progressive Christian magazine for justice and peace.
Both men, I appreciate you joining us this morning.

RICHARD CIZIK, NATL. ASSN. OF EVANGELICALS: Thank you.

COOPER: Reverend Wallace, I want to start off with you. Is any war just?

JIM WALLIS, SOJOURNER'S MAGAZINE: Well the churches have different views on war. One is the Christian non violence says you always must find a better way. Most churches hold to a just war doctrine. And we've never seen the kind of unity we now see in the churches in this country and around the world, that say this war with Iraq would not be a just war.

COOPER: Why do you believe the war would not be just?

WALLIS: Well, the reasons why are because most don't believe the pope has spoken. Many have spoken. This would not be a last resort. It's preemptive war. The casualties could be very high. The unintended consequences, the unpredictable consequences, most Americans believe this could bring more terrorism to us again here. The volatile nature of the Middle East. War for most churches cannot be justified unless it is just the last resort when everything else has been tried first. And most churches don't think we are at that point.

COOPER: Reverend Cizik, are we at that point?

CIZIK: I'm not sure. It's hard to determine that. I would say this to my friend, Jim Wallis, and I wanted to have this conversation with him a few days ago in Washington, but I guess we'll have to have it, Jim, over the air waves.

WALLIS: Sure.

CIZIK: I would say to you, Jim, and all the others who want peace, we want peace. Who in their right mind would not want peace? But the question I think everyone has to answer is peace at what price? Peace for how long? Peace at what risk? These are the questions that we have to answer.

And I happen to think that warfare, yes, as Augustine articulated in the city of God centuries ago, warfare yes, can be a moral option, especially when it's to -- and particularly when it's to restrain evil. And that is what the United States is about here. We are not the aggressor. We are not initiating war. We are attempting to end a war that began with Saddam Hussein going into Kuwait in 1990.

COOPER: Reverend Wallis, your thoughts?

WALLIS: You see, I think the churches must do more than just say this war is wrong. I think the reasons against this war right now are very solid. However, I think we have to go further. Churches should be peacemakers. Rich and I are friends. We agree on this. I want us right now to do something at the 11th hour. Martin King would say we are five minutes before midnight right now.

I think the churches and people of goodwill should try something new, which is this: separate Saddam Hussein from the people of Iraq. I think that removing Saddam Hussein is a moral cause, but I think to do it with war is in fact -- would be a terrible, horrible perhaps way to achieve this moral cause. The dictator is the problem. How do you remove a dictator without assaulting his people? The American people are sympathetic with the Iraqi people. They have suffered so long and so hard already. How do we remove Saddam at this 11th hour without attacking the people of Iraq? That's what we must find and search for.

CIZIK: Well, I would agree with Jim. The sanctions, one consequence have been that 5,000 children, according to UNICEF, die monthly.

WALLIS: Every month.

CIZIK: Five thousand children dying monthly.

WALLIS: That's right.

CIZIK: Count that up over 12 years. The current policy, I would argue, for sanctions isn't working when you have that many young children dying. There has to be a way to stop this dictator. And I frankly don't know how long we're willing to go, chance after chance. You know, peace initiative after peace initiative, call for world opinion after call for world opinion to stop a man who will not abide by the truce.

We didn't sign, you see a peace treaty. There was a truce that was made conditional upon Saddam Hussein's willingness to disarm. He is unwilling to disarm. I happen to believe the only option may be to do it militarily. And is so, that is an entirely moral option, given the threat that exists to our safety, the safety of the world. Tranquility of order is what we need internationally. And sometimes, just war theorists, theologians argue that is done primarily, yes, by warfare. And that's a moral option.

COOPER: And gentlemen, we are going to have to leave it there this morning. I'm very sorry. We're simply out of time. There's a lot to cover this morning. Reverend Jim Wallis, Reverend Richard Cizik. Appreciate both of you for joining us this morning. Thank you very much.

CIZIK: Thank you, Anderson.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com