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CNN Sunday Morning

Interview With Robert Perito

Aired April 20, 2003 - 11:16   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: A part of reconstructing Iraq is restoring law and order to the nation, and it's not easy. The United States Institute of Peace has put together a special report on establishing the rule of law in Iraq. Robert Perito prepared this report. Formerly with the State Department, he's now a special adviser to the Institute's Rule of Law program. Good to see you.
ROBERT PERITO, FORMER STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: Good morning. It's nice to be with you this morning.

WHITFIELD: Well, as we try to evaluate what's going on there, is it occupation or is it liberation, especially when you have now reports that the U.S. military is going to install at least four military bases throughout Iraq. There are some people, particularly Arab nations, who are squirming at that notion.

PERITO: Well, it's all of that, plus it's reconstruction and it's institution building. We have obligations under the Geneva Convention to provide public order, but also to begin reconstruction. And that's what we're engaged in and the primary...

WHITFIELD: Well it seems like -- sorry, go ahead.

PERITO: No, go ahead.

WHITFIELD: It sounds like public order has to be first on the list, especially after seeing so many pictures of the looting and already, you know, people who are protesting. And some are concerned that that may eventually lead to any kind of violent disruptions of civil order.

PERITO: Yes, absolutely. Public order is job one. You can't do anything unless you have security, you know. As we've seen in Afghanistan, the areas outside of Kabul remain lawless and, therefore, refugee relief, humanitarian assistance and reconstruction have been stalled for more than a year.

We just can't tolerate that in Iraq. So the first job of the United States there is going to be to establish public order and begin the necessary steps to ensure that rule of law will prevail.

WHITFIELD: And we're seeing pictures now of police who have been given their arms back. They're back on the job. But what does that do to the confidence of the people there when no one -- it doesn't seem as though anyone is able to police the police, and some of the same police are back in uniform. Is it a sign of change, or is it back to the same old thing?

PERITO: Well, I think for a lot of people in Baghdad what they see is the same old thing. There's a three or four-part process here that we're going to have to go through, and we're going to have to move through it rather quickly.

The first part of it is to vet the existing police force. We need to go through the existing police to make sure that people who engaged in the abuse of human rights and criminal activity before...

WHITFIELD: Who's role is that?

PERITO: Well, that's going to have to be the role of the U.S. occupation administration. Retired General Jay Garner and his team are going to have that responsibility. And then after, that police are only one part of the answer. The other parts of the answer are a functioning judicial system, with lawyers, prosecutors and courts, and then, a prison system.

U.S. forces are arresting people all the time now. It's not clear what they're doing with them, but these people, even if they're being detained, their cases will have to be reviewed. And we have to then move on to trials and, you know, incarceration.

WHITFIELD: How can there be a lot of confidence that the U.S. is going to be able to maintain some order there, when people are going to be recalling what's taken place in Haiti, what's taken place in Kosovo, and even, as you mentioned, in Afghanistan? What would be different now?

PERITO: Well, the United States, unfortunately, is rather ill prepared to take on this part of the operation. After winning what has to be regarded as a brilliant military victory, the United States, as in the past, has finds itself very ill-prepared to take on winning the peace, and particularly establishing rule of law in a post- conflict environment.

One of the things we've advocated in our report that USIP has put together, is that the United States organize, very quickly, a stability force, composed of civilian police, civilian judicial teams, and civilian corrections officers, that could come in and take over this part of the operation from the troops, which are, you know, in all honesty and in all fairness, not trained or equipped to deal with this part of the operation.

WHITFIELD: It would seem to help restore order, not just in terms of security and police, but it also means that people have to feel confident about going back to their jobs, whether they have those jobs, whether there's any kind of return of normalcy and what to do about the currency. I mean, there are so many unanswered questions that so many people have. How can you possibly try to restore the confidence of the Iraqi people there who kind of feel, and we've heard them express, that they are just being bullied?

PERITO: Well, one of the unanswered questions is why after the U.S. Air force was so meticulous about not bombing cultural sites hospitals, government ministries, that were all key to the reconstruction effort, did we find ourselves in a situation where we were not prepared to control the crowds that then went about burning those same facilities. So we're really starting from, not from square one, but from somewhere behind square one. And we're going to have to do a lot of catching up to make sure, to see that this peace implementation phase of the operation goes smoothly.

WHITFIELD: And you see this happening in months or years?

PERITO: Well, it's got to start happening within weeks. I think the long-term prospect is that this is something that will we'll be engaged in a long time, much more than months, perhaps in years. If you look at the record, we've been Bosnia since 1995, Kosovo since 1991, and we were in Panama for more than ten years.

WHITFIELD: All right. Robert Perito of the U.S. Institute of Peace, thank you very much for joining us.

PERITO: Thank you. Pleasure to be with you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired April 20, 2003 - 11:16   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: A part of reconstructing Iraq is restoring law and order to the nation, and it's not easy. The United States Institute of Peace has put together a special report on establishing the rule of law in Iraq. Robert Perito prepared this report. Formerly with the State Department, he's now a special adviser to the Institute's Rule of Law program. Good to see you.
ROBERT PERITO, FORMER STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: Good morning. It's nice to be with you this morning.

WHITFIELD: Well, as we try to evaluate what's going on there, is it occupation or is it liberation, especially when you have now reports that the U.S. military is going to install at least four military bases throughout Iraq. There are some people, particularly Arab nations, who are squirming at that notion.

PERITO: Well, it's all of that, plus it's reconstruction and it's institution building. We have obligations under the Geneva Convention to provide public order, but also to begin reconstruction. And that's what we're engaged in and the primary...

WHITFIELD: Well it seems like -- sorry, go ahead.

PERITO: No, go ahead.

WHITFIELD: It sounds like public order has to be first on the list, especially after seeing so many pictures of the looting and already, you know, people who are protesting. And some are concerned that that may eventually lead to any kind of violent disruptions of civil order.

PERITO: Yes, absolutely. Public order is job one. You can't do anything unless you have security, you know. As we've seen in Afghanistan, the areas outside of Kabul remain lawless and, therefore, refugee relief, humanitarian assistance and reconstruction have been stalled for more than a year.

We just can't tolerate that in Iraq. So the first job of the United States there is going to be to establish public order and begin the necessary steps to ensure that rule of law will prevail.

WHITFIELD: And we're seeing pictures now of police who have been given their arms back. They're back on the job. But what does that do to the confidence of the people there when no one -- it doesn't seem as though anyone is able to police the police, and some of the same police are back in uniform. Is it a sign of change, or is it back to the same old thing?

PERITO: Well, I think for a lot of people in Baghdad what they see is the same old thing. There's a three or four-part process here that we're going to have to go through, and we're going to have to move through it rather quickly.

The first part of it is to vet the existing police force. We need to go through the existing police to make sure that people who engaged in the abuse of human rights and criminal activity before...

WHITFIELD: Who's role is that?

PERITO: Well, that's going to have to be the role of the U.S. occupation administration. Retired General Jay Garner and his team are going to have that responsibility. And then after, that police are only one part of the answer. The other parts of the answer are a functioning judicial system, with lawyers, prosecutors and courts, and then, a prison system.

U.S. forces are arresting people all the time now. It's not clear what they're doing with them, but these people, even if they're being detained, their cases will have to be reviewed. And we have to then move on to trials and, you know, incarceration.

WHITFIELD: How can there be a lot of confidence that the U.S. is going to be able to maintain some order there, when people are going to be recalling what's taken place in Haiti, what's taken place in Kosovo, and even, as you mentioned, in Afghanistan? What would be different now?

PERITO: Well, the United States, unfortunately, is rather ill prepared to take on this part of the operation. After winning what has to be regarded as a brilliant military victory, the United States, as in the past, has finds itself very ill-prepared to take on winning the peace, and particularly establishing rule of law in a post- conflict environment.

One of the things we've advocated in our report that USIP has put together, is that the United States organize, very quickly, a stability force, composed of civilian police, civilian judicial teams, and civilian corrections officers, that could come in and take over this part of the operation from the troops, which are, you know, in all honesty and in all fairness, not trained or equipped to deal with this part of the operation.

WHITFIELD: It would seem to help restore order, not just in terms of security and police, but it also means that people have to feel confident about going back to their jobs, whether they have those jobs, whether there's any kind of return of normalcy and what to do about the currency. I mean, there are so many unanswered questions that so many people have. How can you possibly try to restore the confidence of the Iraqi people there who kind of feel, and we've heard them express, that they are just being bullied?

PERITO: Well, one of the unanswered questions is why after the U.S. Air force was so meticulous about not bombing cultural sites hospitals, government ministries, that were all key to the reconstruction effort, did we find ourselves in a situation where we were not prepared to control the crowds that then went about burning those same facilities. So we're really starting from, not from square one, but from somewhere behind square one. And we're going to have to do a lot of catching up to make sure, to see that this peace implementation phase of the operation goes smoothly.

WHITFIELD: And you see this happening in months or years?

PERITO: Well, it's got to start happening within weeks. I think the long-term prospect is that this is something that will we'll be engaged in a long time, much more than months, perhaps in years. If you look at the record, we've been Bosnia since 1995, Kosovo since 1991, and we were in Panama for more than ten years.

WHITFIELD: All right. Robert Perito of the U.S. Institute of Peace, thank you very much for joining us.

PERITO: Thank you. Pleasure to be with you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com