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CNN Sunday Morning

Interview With Michael Baden

Aired May 04, 2003 - 08:39   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Maine investigators have not said who done it in the church poisoning case, but we already know what done it, arsenic. It is a poison with a long and a deadly history. Now last Sunday someone slipped it into the coffee at the Gustav Adolph Lutheran Church in New Sweden, Maine. One man died, 15 were hospitalized.
Joining us from New York with more on this poison, Dr. Michael Baden, he is a forensic pathologist for the New York State Police Department and also the author of "Dead Reckoning, The New Science of Catching Killers." Welcome.

Your book mentions new science, but actually, arsenic is a very old killer, is it not?

DR. MICHAEL BADEN, NYPD FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Yes, arsenic is one of the oldest poisons that we know about and it was during the Middle Ages, it was used so commonly it was called "inheritance powder" and the reason for it is because it's odorless, colorless, tasteless. Can be put into chicken soup, can be put into coffee and the person who's drinking it won't know that they're taking it in.

COOPER: You say it's odorless and colorless, tasteless. Is it very difficult to find later on in an autopsy?

BADEN: It used to be. That's why it was so common because there was no test for it until about the 1830s; a test for arsenic was developed. That was after Napoleon died because there is still a controversy as to whether Napoleon was poisoned with arsenic. And the French say the British did it and the British say the French did it, but he died before the test for arsenic was available. But it's still among the most common poisons that we have.

COOPER: And but it stays in the body for a long time. So even a body -- even someone who has died they can be exhumed later on and you can still find the presence of arsenic, is that right?

BADEN: Absolutely arsenic -- Anderson -- absolutely. Arsenic sticks around and today it's easily found after death if somebody thinks of looking for it, because the problem with arsenic, it isn't looked for in the common tests for drugs. Somebody has to be suspicious about arsenic and ask the toxicologist to do the test. Not only does it stick around the body, but it's loaded in the hair. The hair gets a lot of arsenic into it and that -- it is easily found there.

COOPER: Are there tell tale signs that arsenic has been used on someone?

BADEN: It isn't so much tell tale as it causes nonspecific pain and symptoms such as severe abdominal pain. It will then go on to cause liver damage, muscle damage, kidney damage. So what must have happened in Maine is a whole bunch of people got sick all at once and the health authorities came in to look around as to what might have caused it, whether it was food poisoning, whether it was something else and somebody found arsenic in the coffee and that's what alerted them.

It took them a few days to get there, but once they found -- they did a general test and they found the arsenic, then they knew what they were dealing with and there are specific treatment for that now.

COOPER: Right.

BADEN: So they're getting treated for it with something that pulls the arsenic out.

COOPER: Right. Now I'm not talking about this case in particular, but arsenic occurs naturally I mean in the world, in the ground. Isn't there a risk sometimes that someone, arsenic might show up and in someone's system, but it doesn't necessarily mean they've been intentionally poisoned?

BADEN: Again, absolutely right because arsenic is ubiquitous. It's very common in the earth as a natural element and it's especially common in seafood. And lobsters in particular have a high arsenic content because of all -- what the arsenics take into -- what the lobsters take into the body, but the way it's in the seafood doesn't harm us.

Arsenic is a funny chemical, depending on how -- what form it's in, some forms like the forms in pesticides can be very deadly to vermin and to humans, but when the arsenic is taken up by fish and by lobster, it comes into the body in a form that doesn't hurt us, but if we do measurements on the body, there's arsenic present.

COOPER: All right. Doctor, I appreciate you joining us. I've enjoyed watching you on HBO over the years. I look forward to reading your book "Dead Reckoning, The New Science of Catching Killers." Thanks very much, doctor.

BADEN: Good to see you again, Anderson.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired May 4, 2003 - 08:39   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Maine investigators have not said who done it in the church poisoning case, but we already know what done it, arsenic. It is a poison with a long and a deadly history. Now last Sunday someone slipped it into the coffee at the Gustav Adolph Lutheran Church in New Sweden, Maine. One man died, 15 were hospitalized.
Joining us from New York with more on this poison, Dr. Michael Baden, he is a forensic pathologist for the New York State Police Department and also the author of "Dead Reckoning, The New Science of Catching Killers." Welcome.

Your book mentions new science, but actually, arsenic is a very old killer, is it not?

DR. MICHAEL BADEN, NYPD FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Yes, arsenic is one of the oldest poisons that we know about and it was during the Middle Ages, it was used so commonly it was called "inheritance powder" and the reason for it is because it's odorless, colorless, tasteless. Can be put into chicken soup, can be put into coffee and the person who's drinking it won't know that they're taking it in.

COOPER: You say it's odorless and colorless, tasteless. Is it very difficult to find later on in an autopsy?

BADEN: It used to be. That's why it was so common because there was no test for it until about the 1830s; a test for arsenic was developed. That was after Napoleon died because there is still a controversy as to whether Napoleon was poisoned with arsenic. And the French say the British did it and the British say the French did it, but he died before the test for arsenic was available. But it's still among the most common poisons that we have.

COOPER: And but it stays in the body for a long time. So even a body -- even someone who has died they can be exhumed later on and you can still find the presence of arsenic, is that right?

BADEN: Absolutely arsenic -- Anderson -- absolutely. Arsenic sticks around and today it's easily found after death if somebody thinks of looking for it, because the problem with arsenic, it isn't looked for in the common tests for drugs. Somebody has to be suspicious about arsenic and ask the toxicologist to do the test. Not only does it stick around the body, but it's loaded in the hair. The hair gets a lot of arsenic into it and that -- it is easily found there.

COOPER: Are there tell tale signs that arsenic has been used on someone?

BADEN: It isn't so much tell tale as it causes nonspecific pain and symptoms such as severe abdominal pain. It will then go on to cause liver damage, muscle damage, kidney damage. So what must have happened in Maine is a whole bunch of people got sick all at once and the health authorities came in to look around as to what might have caused it, whether it was food poisoning, whether it was something else and somebody found arsenic in the coffee and that's what alerted them.

It took them a few days to get there, but once they found -- they did a general test and they found the arsenic, then they knew what they were dealing with and there are specific treatment for that now.

COOPER: Right.

BADEN: So they're getting treated for it with something that pulls the arsenic out.

COOPER: Right. Now I'm not talking about this case in particular, but arsenic occurs naturally I mean in the world, in the ground. Isn't there a risk sometimes that someone, arsenic might show up and in someone's system, but it doesn't necessarily mean they've been intentionally poisoned?

BADEN: Again, absolutely right because arsenic is ubiquitous. It's very common in the earth as a natural element and it's especially common in seafood. And lobsters in particular have a high arsenic content because of all -- what the arsenics take into -- what the lobsters take into the body, but the way it's in the seafood doesn't harm us.

Arsenic is a funny chemical, depending on how -- what form it's in, some forms like the forms in pesticides can be very deadly to vermin and to humans, but when the arsenic is taken up by fish and by lobster, it comes into the body in a form that doesn't hurt us, but if we do measurements on the body, there's arsenic present.

COOPER: All right. Doctor, I appreciate you joining us. I've enjoyed watching you on HBO over the years. I look forward to reading your book "Dead Reckoning, The New Science of Catching Killers." Thanks very much, doctor.

BADEN: Good to see you again, Anderson.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com